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1 Meadows-rovat (mind)  131 sor     (cikkei)
2 re: Arvizek altalaban (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Arvizek altalaban (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: HIX KORNYESZ #798 - arvizek altalaban (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
5 CO2 (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
6 Arvizek-aradat-teruletek. (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Meadows-rovat (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


This column is not a Honda ad, though it will start off sounding like
one.  This is an ad for feedback.

I've had a Honda gas-electric hybrid car for less than a month.  It has taught
me a whole new way of driving, thanks to feedback from its instrument panel.

An indicator flashes a string of orange lights when the nickel-hydride batterie
kick in to help the little gas engine accelerate or pull uphill.  When I
decelerate or go downhill, green lights show the gas engine recharging the
batteries.  Light brake pressure sends the meter to a green maximum.  So
now I
avoid sudden stops.  I try to glide into stoplights, braking gently from
a long
distance away.

There are three odometer/mileage meters.  One I reset as I start each
trip.  One
I reset when I fill up with gas.  The third keeps track of miles and mileage
over the life of the car.  At the moment that third meter reads 1600
miles at an
average 56 miles per gallon.  The latter number is rising as the car
teaches me
to drive more efficiently.  The last fill-up carried me 660 miles at an average
71 miles per gallon.  Some days I can get over 80 mpg on my commute to

The most effective feedback comes from the instantaneous mileage meter, which
zooms up and down according to my gas consumption at every minute.  Long uphill
in third gear: ouch!  Under 25 mpg.  Cruising on the flat: not bad, 75 mpg,
maybe if I ease off the gas a bit I can get it up to 80.  Long downhill:
Off the scale at over 150!

This meter runs my life, or at least my driving.  No more jackrabbit
stops or
starts.  No way, when I see the result on the mileage meter, do I gun my
I find myself going slower than I'm used to.  I conform almost perfectly to
speed limits.  I pass lurking police cars without a twinge of
apprehension --
now there's a new experience!  My commute takes about one minute longer,
a small
price to pay for cutting my gas cost in half.

The habit I find hardest to shake is driving according to the urge of
the driver
behind me.  When someone crowds me impatiently, I used to speed up --
but now I
see my mileage drop when I do.  For awhile I speeded up anyway.  Then I started
thinking, "why should I contribute to the frying of the planet just because
you're in a hurry?  If you stay at the speed I'm going, both of us will
use less

So now I remain happily oblivious to frustration behind me.  I do try to stick
to the interstate, so folks can pass me, or to take two-lane roads at
less busy
times.  I notice, to my surprise, that I'm not the only speed-limit-obeying
slowpoke out there.  I never quite registered the others before; I was
too busy
leaving them in the dust.

Whatever you think of my driving, my point has to do with the power of
Three weeks of information I never had before have changed 40 years of ingraine
driving habits.  I didn't have to be coerced or rewarded; I didn't have to
change my values.  I just had to see how my actions did and did not
conform to
my values.

Which brings me to the Viridian Meter.  There is a crazy website
(www.bespoke.org/viridian) run by science fiction writer Bruce Sterling and
dedicated to the proposition that industrial design needs to be more
environmentally conscious and less ugly.  The site features catalog ads for
imaginary products that Sterling and his friends think someone should
One of them is the Viridian Meter.

"One of the most offensive artifacts of the twentieth century is the standard
household electricity meter.  This ugly gizmo clings like a barnacle to the
outside of your home, readable only by functionaries.  Clumsily painted in
battleship gray, this network spy device features creepy, illegible little
clock-dials under an ungainly glass dome.  Look a bit closer and this
user-hostile interface deliberately insults you with a hateful anti-theft
warning and a foul little lockbox."

"This crass device is designed to leave you in stellar ignorance of your own
energy usage.  It publicly brands you as a helpless peon, a technically
illiterate source of cash for remote, uncaring utility lords."

"But today, thanks to the Viridian Electrical Meter, the tables are
turned.  The
Viridian Meter is not some utility spy device, but a user-owned art object!"

I will spare you the description of the Viridian Meter, because my
institute is
sponsoring a contest for the design of an actual one (see
www.sustainer.org/viridmetercomp), and I don't want to cramp your
The ideal meter would be so beautiful or dynamic or fascinating that you would
want it in your living room.  You would watch it rise as someone turns
on an
electric hairdryer.  You would cheer as more efficient lightbulbs cool
its angry
red, say, to soothing green.  Maybe it would read in dollars instead of
kilowatt-hours, so you could watch your electric space heater dribble your
paycheck away.  Maybe it would show less acid rain falling on New
England or
less greenhouse gas pouring into the atmosphere as you switch off lights in
empty rooms.

Whatever a Viridian Meter would look like, I want one.  I want it to
teach me,
as my new car is teaching me, the actual effects of my decisions.  I want
another meter to register my water use and another the fuel flows I
engender, as
I open doors, wash dishes, caulk windows, take long showers, or buy an efficien
washing machine.  I want those meters in my kitchen or on my front door, right
in my face, and I want them posted on a website so everyone can see them.

I suspect that all it would take would be some well-placed user-friendly
feedback to change the world.

(Donella Meadows is an adjunct professor at Dartmouth College and
director of
the Sustainability Institute in Hartland, Vermont.)
+ - re: Arvizek altalaban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>  Kerdem en: Miert nem lehet a folyo melletti szantofoldeket felaldozni a
>tavaszi aradasnak es a folyot igy megfeleloen kiszelesiteni?

Kerdezd meg a regeszeket, oskori/okori/kozepkori falu nyomat
sem talalod termeszetes arteruleten. Ugyanis a regiek meg tudtak,
hogy a viz az ur, es eleve nem epitkeztek arvizes teruletre.
(Ezert volt sokaig szinte lakatlan a Tisza-Koros mente)

A mai paraszt -a jelek szerint- azt hiszi hogy sose lesz tobbet arviz,
vagy ha lesz, majd valami csoda tortenik, kulonben miert epitkezne
arteruletre, miert alapozza egzisztenciajat arteres szantofoldekre,
miert rakja a hazat kozvetlen a gat melle; aztan amikor jon egy atlag
feletti arviz (az arviz t.i. normalis termeszeti jelenseg errefele)
csak rinyal hogy a hazat elmossa a feltoro viz. Hatosagilag meg kellene
tiltani ezeknek a hazaknak az ujjaepiteset.

Most isszuk meg a levet a mult szazadi "bolcs" folyamszabalyozasnak.

Tudni kell, hogy a Nagyalfold egy tekonikai nyomasarnyekban levo, 
gyorsan sullyedo medence (az elmult 5 millio evben kilometereket(!)
melyult az aljzat) amit a Karpatok folyoi toltenek fol uledekkel
folyamatosan, ezert marad egyatalan a tengerszint folott, szemben
pl. a Kaszpi-melyfolddel. (elismerem, ezt nem tudhattak a 150 evvel
ezelotti okostojasok)
Az arvizek altal szetteritett uledek nelkulozhetetlen. Es minel 
kesobb latjuk ezt be annal kellemetlenebb lesz a termeszetes allapot

mas: Karpat-Ukrajnaban rohamleptekben irtjak a Karpatok erdosegeit,
(nem lopas, "privatizacio" :-(() ami gyorsitja a vizek lefolyasat.
Ez a jovoben a mostaninal is gonoszabb -hirtelen keletkezo, nagy es
gyors- arvizeket fog indukalni.

Van ennek egy olyan vetulete is, amit kevesen emlegetnek, politikai
athallasi miatt. A Karpat-medencenek az emberi lakhatasra -hosszu 
tavon- leginkabb alkalmas teruletei a Dunantul kivetelevel immar
nem tartoznak M.O.-hoz. A Nagyalfold sohasem tartozott a tortenelmi
Magyarorszag surun lakott, ertekes teruletei koze. A tortenetiras
igyekszik ugy beallitani, mintha mindig is a Karpat-medence kozepso
teruletei lettek volna a "legertekesebbek", lam a honfoglalok is
oda telepultek. Ez nem igaz. A legsurubben lakott terulet a Dunantul
volt, azutan jott a Felvidek also lankasabb resze es folyovolgyei,
a Bacska, majd miutan kiirtottak az ottani erdoket, Erdely.
Maguk a "honfoglalo" magyar vezerek a nagy folyok menten vandoroltak
fol-le az allataikkal, (az orszag is igy volt felosztva torzsterul-
etekre) fixen kijelolt szantofoldek nelkul.
Kesobb alakultak ki allando telepulesek a kisebb dombokon, helyi
Masik 5000 eves tapasztalat -bar ezt nekunk mar nem kell bizonygatni-,
hogy strategiailag igen rossz dolog alvizi orszagnak lenni.

udv: VAti
+ - Re: Arvizek altalaban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>   Kerdem en: Miert nem lehet a folyo melletti szantofoldeket felaldozni a
> tavaszi aradasnak es a folyot igy megfeleloen kiszelesiteni?
> --
> Frank O'Yanco

Csak Tippek:
Pl. azert mert a folyok menti szantofoldek magas aranykorona erteku
gabonatermo teruletek, erre "harap" az urbanizacio, azaz a folyo mellett
idovel szep kis falvak-varosok alakulnak(tak) ki, es en sem vennem szivesen,
ha a hegyekbol hirtelen lezudulo vizek miatt a nehany eve/evtizede epitett
hazam eluszna, utana jarvanyok pusztitananak a sok kimosott emeszto miatt,
es igy tovabb. Egyebkent a mostani tiszai arvizekhez legnagyobbreszt (a
korabbi evekhez merten csapadekosabb idojaras mellett) az is hozzajarul,
hogy az ominozus folyo forrasvideken az elmult egy evtizedben jelentos
teruleteket vagtak tarra (reszben szeltores kovetkezmenyekent), azaz
megszunt az ottani erdok egy reszenek az a kedvezo hatasa, hogy alattuk
lassabban olvad a ho, es a viz is lassan folyik le rajtuk. Vagy csak a
falvakat kellene korbegatalni? (Meg a vasutvonalakat, meg a hidakhoz vezeto
utvonalakat, foutvonalakat, es igy tovabb...) Ez esetben is felvetodik meg
egy csomo hatrany, pl. nem biztos, hogy jot tenne a nemzetgazdasagnak, ha
egyik evben 20 a masik evben 80 Ft-ba kerulne 1 kg buza.
Homonnai Istvan
+ - Re: HIX KORNYESZ #798 - arvizek altalaban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Arvizek altalaban ( 16 sor )

>   Kerdem en: Miert nem lehet a folyo melletti szantofoldeket felaldozni a
> tavaszi aradasnak es a folyot igy megfeleloen kiszelesiteni?

Valaszolom en: dehogynem lehet! Igazad van! Pl., ha a Te folded van az 
arvizzel fenyegetett reszen, bizonyara konnyu dolguk lenne az 
elarasztani akaroknak, mert Te konnyedebben folaldoznad a foldedet es 
a belevetett magot, tragyat, szantast, munkat.

    A problema oka az ENIMBY: Everywhere, But Not In My BackYard.

Udv: zsgy.
+ - CO2 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tegnap az <MSNBC.COM>teljes  es reszletekben magyarazo jelentes volt
teve a CO2 alkalmazasarol es annak "raktarozas"-arol. Ami tisztaz nehany
kodos dolgokat.

                                  John                         A
Demokracia profess-szora,                         az elavult bukott
gondolkodasok es                a dogmas kepviseltetlen uralmak
ellnzeke, a nepi onkormanyzasok predikatora,           az egyeni jogok
es lehetosegek bajnoka.
+ - Arvizek-aradat-teruletek. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> a legegyszerubben tete az ujjat a poroblemak
okara.100%-os talalat Franko.  ( De kerdesem; mi a ____ a "Haliho" ???)
Egyben nagyon teved Franko,amiben tul nezi hogy az aradat-terulet nem
vesztes terulet.Az Egyptomiak csupan az aradat-teruleten termeltek es
termelik minden elelmiszereiket mar 5 ezer eve.      Sot ,itt
Floridaban,a "Bradford" hus-marha a legkivalobb kitenyesztes azok
kozott,ami a nedves/aradt teruleteket kedvez legelni legnagyobb
meretben. 1/2 es 3/4 m.-es vizben legelni kedvence.Tehat meg az aradas
eseten is koveredik,termeli a jo hust.Tobb jovedelem mint a mag
termeles.Nem is emlitve az izet.                  Persze cel nem csak
arviz karok megelozese,de az ecologiai teren nyert elonyok.
Sajnos a folyok "szablyozasa" (pusztitasa)meg a Kossuth idejeben
kezdodott.                                                   A Kissimmee
folyo esete, a szabalyozasa es eredetive valo helyre allitasa a leg jobb
pelda.Nezd a 'US Army Corps of Engineers' web lapjat 

                                  John                         A
Demokracia profess-szora,                         az elavult bukott
gondolkodasok es                a dogmas kepviseltetlen uralmak
ellnzeke, a nepi onkormanyzasok predikatora,           az egyeni jogok
es lehetosegek bajnoka.