Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 330
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-05-07
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Autonomy for Transylvania! (mind)  121 sor     (cikkei)
2 Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind)  1593 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: SCM: Re: Transylvania was a Hungarian province/resp (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: SCM: Re: Transylvania was a Hungarian province/resp (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Mr. Keeler & his poetry! (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: SCM: Re: Transylvania was a Hungarian province/resp (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The Rite of Pissing In Different Colours (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Sz.P. gyotrelmei (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
14 Wally & Poetics (mind)  158 sor     (cikkei)
15 Ms Tristan Tzara; Frequently Un-Asked Questions (mind)  425 sor     (cikkei)
16 Mr Bland Gland Should Study Mark Cristian (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Ms Tristan Tzara; Frequently Un-Asked Questions (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: The Rite of Pissing In Different Colours (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Mr Bland Gland Should Study Mark Cristian (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: "romania" is a province of Hungary (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: This newsgroup (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Mr. Keeler & his poetry! (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Penury Gyuri Guzzles Grape Juice (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Autonomy for Transylvania! (mind)  131 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Penury Gyuri (Whatever the heck that means) (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Penury Gyuri (Whatever the heck that means) (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
31 Mr Bili: Posting without a P.L. (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
33 Hungarian Lobby FAQ (mind)  557 sor     (cikkei)
34 For Mark Cristian (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
35 For the Frustrated Prostate, alias Ms Wally Bali Keeler (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Mr. Keeler & his poetry! (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Autonomy for Transylvania! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (T.M.Lutas) wrote:


>Your use of the term "the war" is unclear and gives me a clue that you 
>might not be as knowlegeable on the historical facts as you like to 
>pretend.

>A short synopsis of war events that led to Transylvania's current status.

>pre-WW I - 
>Romania did not have Transylvania

>World War I - Romania started and finished the war on the allied side. 
>During the war, it bowed to superior german arms and concluded a separate
>peace with the central powers to avoid annihilation. Towards the end of
>the war, when it could, it rejoined the allied fight and probably saved
>the lives of many English, French, American, and Italian soldiers by 
>drawing central power troops away from their fronts. Romania was awarded
>Transylvania after the war.

.....This is a fair bit off from anything I have ever seen...started
and finished on the allied side?...hardly..Romania was a member of the
Triple-Alliance...it signed a secret agreement with the Russians in
the fall of 1914 which promised ALL Hungarian territories with ANY
amount of Romanians in them to Romania...In 1915 Romania was STILL a
part of the Triple-Alliance...Prime Minister Tisza's opinion was
correct..."Romania's leaders are fence-sitting oppurtunists.." in
other words at that point Romania was an *ally* to all the belligerent
parties...it only actively entered the war in 1916...officially still
an ally of the Monarchy...when the Russians broke thru the
Carpathians and grabbed approx. 300,000 prisoners...(!)  ..it THEN
declared war on the Central Powers and attacked Transylvania...which
was defenseless...although again only after recieving assurances  from
the allied powers that it would recieve Transylvania, and Banat as
well as a huge portion the of Hungarian lowlands.. at this point the
Romanians  agreed to not make a seperate peace with the Central
Powers..and if they did the *award* offer was void...the length of
time Romania was involved is known to be quite short ..aprox. 3
months..when it was driven back out of Transylvania ...Bucharest fell
on Dec 6 1916....and in 1918 Romania reneged on it's promise to the
allies and DID sign a peace agreement with the Monarchy...which should
have forfeited the *award* agreement...by this time tho' it's
propaganda machine was well in place along with that of the Czech's,
when Russia collapsed Romania occupied Bessarabia...and thru outright
political treachery and propaganda ended up annexing territories from
former enemies and allies....all this for an app. 3 month involvment
that ended with them losing...Romania marched into Transylvania  in
total violation of the agreement it had signed with Hungary as well as
in violation of the armistice signed at Padua, Italy on Nov.3
1918....should I go on?...somewhere in here I must be missing the part
about it *rejoining the allied fight*....


>interbellic period - 
>Romania did have Transylvania

>World War II - Romania lost Basarabia to the Russians and was scheduled
>to lose all of Transylvania to the Hungarians. Romania entered into the
>side of the Axis in order to save at least the southern half of Transylvania
>and to regain Basarabia through conquest. Again when it was clear that
>Romania would be unable to gain her wartime aims she concluded a separate
>peace but this time immediately switched sides in exchange for a promise
>that she would be restored "in whole or in part" Transylvania. Hungary
>was also given a chance to keep part of Transylvania if she would surrender.
>Hungary didn't take the deal while Romania did. Romania was restored 
>Transylvania after the war.

.....Romania was already well into the Stalin's orbit and Hungary was
Resisting...that's how it ended up getting Transylvania back.....plus
it's convenient forgetfulness of things like alliance agreements
etc...


>post WW II - 
>Romania did have Transylvania 

>While yes, there was an instance of switching sides in the second round
>of Transylvanian territory wrangling, the first round went to Romania 
>without any such switching sides. 

....this is untrue... Romania windmilled it's way thru both wars and
was a total oppurtunist ...esp. when it could take advantage of
of any *defencless* situation...particularly the incursion onto
Hungarian territory under the protection of the French in 1919...and
then conveniently *forgetting* them when France surrendered to the
Germans in June 1940...as well as ignoring it's commitment to an
alliance it had with Poland .... 

>Romania's policy during WW II was not the best one. But it was very close.
>She had lost territories due to both of the Great Powers in her 
>neighborhood's machinations. She tried to get both back and succeeded in 
>one instance. If Gen. Antonescu had not gone on past the WW I boundaries 
>of Romania all the way to Stalingrad, Romania might have had a chance at 
>maintaining a Swedish type neutrality and when the German collapse began 
>even gotten back all of Transylvania through the force of her own arms. 

....Buchrest was an eager partner and loyal ally to the Germans...under
this it took back Bukovina and Bessarbia...until the Soviets bounced
back and then Romania switched sides and declared war on it's
allies..taking Transylvania with Soviet forces...instilling their will
with such brutal force and atrocities that Stalin intervened and
actually expelled the Romanian administration and installed  a Russian
Military government....

>The question remains, what do they desire? There are irredentists who 
>wish for Transylvania to be attached to Hungary. There are moderates who
>merely wish for a cultural tradition that is kept alive inside Romania.

>So which status do you support?

>DB

>-- 

....These borders were created with penstrokes...after dubious
manipulation of the facts and with obvious atonement in mind...were
those not the words from the French delegations leader to Trianon?...
"Hungary must atone..." ...atone for what?...for lands that for over a
thousand years had been under the Crown of St.Istvan?....
I can't see why an autonous region couldn't exist...I'm sure you can
tho'..... F.I.V.
+ - Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/14
Version: 1.41
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle [press review]
2.3  "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulletin]
2.4  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

- - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is mostly
concerned with resources freely available netwide.
 See also the sections under 2. below which list services that carry
occasional English material, some regularly, besides their primarily
Hungarian language content.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>. It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived by
HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;. A similar archive is to be found at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>; (see 1.8 below). For www/e-mail
gateways see <http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html>; or the
archives mentioned above.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). 
For accessing groups in the international hierarchy from abroad via
gopher the gateway in the Netherlands may be better:
<gopher://g4nn.cca.vu.nl:4320/1g4nn%20group/soc.culture.magyar>.  The
hun.* groups are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS')
and they are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>; as well
as <http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>;.
 HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar and
hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>. A similar gatewaying service
is also available for soc.culture.magyar via
<mailto:> (see 1.8 below), as well as via
<mailto:> (see also 2.3).

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.7 'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address. For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY. You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL. SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software. For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

 The Hungarian-American List is an unmoderated discussion forum to
promote communications between people with interest in modern Hungarian
culture and Hungarian cultural heritage. The list brings you, among
other things, news items originating from OMRI, CET, the Hungarian
media and several other sources, that might be of interest for
Hungarians and Americans. The WWW Home Page of the Hungarian-American
list is <http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>;. Subscribe by
<mailto:>, using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY. The Hungarian Usenet group -
soc.culture.magyar is available for Hungarian-American List subscribers
via email. You can subscribe to this news-to-mail-to-news service by
<mailto:>, using no Subject, in the body of the
letter write SUBSCRIBE SOC-CULTURE-MAGYAR. The WWW address of the
interactive soc.culture.magyar archive is
<http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/>;.

 (Notice that this Maryland-based list is distinct from the older
LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus - mentioning
'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one! Note also that
the Majordomo server syntax is different from LISTSERV for many of
their commands - see the help document sent by the server.)

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Nemzet Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulleti
n]

 [This section is as provided by <mailto:>]

(1) (E-mail news bulletins)
        "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap
        E-mail news digest, Mon-Fri, 25-55k. Comprises East-European
        regional news (by OMRI, in English), excerpts from Hungarian
        press (in Hungarian), and reports on newsworthy items (press,
        events, etc., mostly in Hungarian and occasionally in English)

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www:  http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(2) (usenet e-mail digest)
        "Nemzetiforum"
        Digest of "Soc.Culture.Magyar" by means of e-mail bulletin, filtering
        out all lists and postings beyond size 8k.

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(3) (www/e-mail gateway)
        E-mail message is acknowledged and posted to "Soc.Culture.Magyar",
        with your address and your subject-definition.
        Simply send contributions to  

        Gateway maintained under direction of:


(5) Hungarian Papers on WWW (liberal to conservative)

        (a)     168 ORA
                http://www.atm.com.pl/COM/xlori/168/ora.html

        (b)     KELET-MAGYARORSZAG
                http://www.bgytf.hu/public/keletm/

        (c)     UJVIDEKI NAPLO
                http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/naplo/naplo.htm

        (d)     DEMOKRATA
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/demokrata/

        (e)     NEMZET
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        (f)     MAGYAR ELET

http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/magyarel/hunlife.htm

        (g)     24. ORA
                http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth/


- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.4  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
"Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ" <http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source for conversion between text and RTF
(Rich Text Format), character sets ISO 8852/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin
2) and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically, RTF or text as well as used character set. The outbound
format is the same as the inbound format, the program changes only the
character set. In other words, the program does not convert from RTF ot
text or from text to RTF. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS, & UNIX and
other platforms supporting ANSI C.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Saghi-Szabo Gotthard <mailto:>, section 1.8
Toth, Joseph   <mailto:>, section 2.3
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors (with the exception of the
independently maintained section 2.3) are the responsibility of Zoli -
who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just comments
readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists). The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Since February 14, 1996 this document is authenticated 
by my secure public-key encrypted electronic signature 
(see <http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp>; for details), 
 the public key for which is shown in the WWW link 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/pgp-key.asc>; 
and is also attached to the end of the text available via
 'finger '!
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or 
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited!  

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/14
Version: 1.41
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days
- - - --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In Japanese: "Aishteru"
In Arabic: "Ahibbek"
In Spanish: "Yo te quero"
In Persian: "Doserderum"
In Urdu: "Tum bilkul Mahabbet"
In California: "Screw You"
+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 5 May 1996, Christopher. Armstrong wrote:

>=20
>=20
> On 2 May 1996, Fabio Bizzetti wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > 3 words? not always so (i.e. in Italian you dont need to use the subjec=
t, it's
> > already in the tense).
> >=20
> > >"Jeg elsker dig."
> > this was Danish I guess. (I love Denmark btw)
> >=20
> > I=20
add:
> >=20
> > "Jag =C4lskar Dig" - Swedish (I love Sweden btw :))
> > "Ti Amo" - Italian (I am Italian, btw)
> > "Je T'Aime" - French
> > "S'Agapo" - Greek
> > "Te Amo" - Spanish (not sure)
> > "Ich Liebe Dich" - German
> >=20
> > hmm.. no need to impress a girl this way 8-)
> > Just watch her in the eyes and kiss her... 9-)

olala, questi ITALIANI, ma mi piaccono ITALIANE, e questo e' verisssimo!

ciao,
PIETRO



> >=20
> > It always worked for me :)
> >=20
> >=20
>      Oh what a MAN you are!!! What amazing, perfect, specimens of manhood=
=20
> ALL of you Italians are!!! Do you know, the rest of the world just lives=
=20
> in a constant state of profound jealousy, considering JUST how wonderful=
=20
> you and your friends must be!
>    OR,,,  Fotiti, cazzo! - as I believe you dashing Romeos say. Whichever=
=20
> you prefer.
>    Ciao.
> >      Chris xxx
>=20
>=20
> >   /--------------------------------------------------------------------=
---\
> >   |  Fabio "Maverick" Bizzetti -  - Maverick* at IR=
C  |
> >   |            The maker of "CyberMan" and "Virtual Karting"           =
   |
> >   |              working on "VirtualRally" & "StarFighter"             =
   |
> >   \--------------------------------------------------------------------=
---/
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
+ - Re: SCM: Re: Transylvania was a Hungarian province/resp (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Loomis, spare me the foolish insults.  Why don't you substantiate
your insults with facts like I have.  But maybe you are just too brainwashed
with Ceaucescu Daco-Roman propaganda to do so.  By the way, why don't you
sign your real name, or are you scared or something?  Count Dracula II isn't
that funny.

Laszlo Koszeghy III


Loomis wrote:
>> 
>> >  Didn't read all this, but it don't matter... though something else
>> >I've noticed and herd... is that Hungarians are trying to get a piece
>> >of Romania, and act or think it was theirs, (Transilvania) heck, since
>> >I can remember or the history of Europe.. Trans. never belonged to
>> >Hungaria, 
>> >  If that's true (that Hung. are trying to start their own thing in
>> >Romania) this is a laughing matter... I think Rom. aught to tighten
>> >their laws and start ruling again...


Laszlo wrote:

>>         This message from you shows what a fool you really are.  Why don't
>> you go to your friendly neighborhood library and read a book on Hungarian or
>> Central European history.  There you will see that Transylvania was a part
>> of the Hungarian Kingdom physically or spiritually.  When it was not
>> actually physically part of Hungary during the Turkish occupation, the
>> princes were all Hungarian.  I didn't see any Romanian princes rule it.
>> Even when the Austrians ruled Transylvania directly from Vienna (they wanted
>> to weaken Hungary by not uniting it), there was a Hungarian viceroy, not a
>> Romanian one.  Hungarian or Szekler tribes have been in Transylvania and the
>> Carpathian Basin for 1100 years.  The Romanians were in the forests of the
>> Carpathians (outside the borders of 1914 Hungary) until the sixteenth
>> century herding goats and the like while there were Hungarian universities
>> in places like Kolozsvar (Cluj) at the time.  The Romanians only trickled
>> into Transylvania during Ottoman rule because the Hungarians became sort of
>> depopulated after fighting with the Turks to protect Christianity.  There
>> did eventually become a Romanian majority in Transylvania, but for you to
>> say that Transylvania never belonged to Hungary or was Hungarian in spirit
>> is truly ignorant.  Maybe you Romanians, instead of reading brainwashing
>> books about unsubstantiated Daco-Roman theories, should read history books
>> with real physical evidence; not theories blowing in the wind.
>> 
>> Laszlo Koszeghy III

Loomis wrote:
>
>Another Hungarien Bullshit
>Count Dracula II
>
>
+ - Re: SCM: Re: Transylvania was a Hungarian province/resp (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>       Loomis, spare me the foolish insults.  Why don't you substantiate
your >insults with facts like I have.  But maybe you are just too
brainwashed with >Ceaucescu Daco-Roman propaganda to do so.  By the way, why
don't you sign your >real name, or are you scared or something?  Count
Dracula II isn't that funny.
>
>Laszlo Koszeghy III
>

CORRECTION: -S-L-I-C-E- wrote, not Loomis wrote!
>
>Loomis wrote:
>>> 
>>> >  Didn't read all this, but it don't matter... though something else
>>> >I've noticed and herd... is that Hungarians are trying to get a piece
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>dislikes and likes. "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."
>There is not an artist who cares about such comments because they are
>insubstantial. The artist would care about the perceptions of his or her
>peers and colleagues.

In article >
 (Gabor Barsai)wrote:
|Well, yes and no. I'm not an engineer, but I know which cars I like. And
|car manufacturers care about what people think of them, even at a layman's
|level. If Ford and Chrysler cared only about each other, where do you
|think car manufacturing would be? Probabaly at your level of
|pseudo-poetry, in other words, dismal.

Well we know you are not a poet and you are not an engineer and you are not
a literary critic given the level of inadequate analogy that you produce --
dismal. Ford and Chrysler are prosaic; Mazeratti and Lamborghini are
poetry. Ford and Chrysler are after the masses, the lowest common
denominator, the middle class, the dime-a-dozeners -- so to be economically
viable they cannot extend their reach beyond what the Bland Glands of
America can grasp. 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Re: Mr. Keeler & his poetry! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hermes1  > wrote to Goober:
>
>Please stop being such a whimpy, castrato_PC_snoid, you bring shame to the
>whole of Eastern Europe !

Hear, hear!

Joe
+ - Re: SCM: Re: Transylvania was a Hungarian province/resp (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>  Didn't read all this, but it don't matter... though something else
>I've noticed and herd... is that Hungarians are trying to get a piece
>of Romania, and act or think it was theirs, (Transilvania) heck, since
>I can remember or the history of Europe.. Trans. never belonged to
>Hungaria, it is not Rom.'s fault cuz they ran away from their own
>country and went to Rom. and multiplyed as the time went along... 
>About the schooling system or the country, you move to China, you learn
>Chinese, you move to US, you learn English, you move to Mexico you
>learn Spanish, countries are not and should not put up with people,
>that want to start their own system, and their own goverment just
>because a large sum or amount live in a different country.  That is
>"B.S."  I've been to 3 different countries, actully 4 and I had to
>learn their languages, and didn't complain.... so will you..
>
>  If that's true (that Hung. are trying to start their own thing in
>Romania) this is a laughing matter... I think Rom. aught to tighten
>their laws and start ruling again...

        This message from you shows what a fool you really are.  Why don't
you go to your friendly neighborhood library and read a book on Hungarian or
Central European history.  There you will see that Transylvania was a part
of the Hungarian Kingdom physically or spiritually.  When it was not
actually physically part of Hungary during the Turkish occupation, the
princes were all Hungarian.  I didn't see any Romanian princes rule it.
Even when the Austrians ruled Transylvania directly from Vienna (they wanted
to weaken Hungary by not uniting it), there was a Hungarian viceroy, not a
Romanian one.  Hungarian or Szekler tribes have been in Transylvania and the
Carpathian Basin for 1100 years.  The Romanians were in the forests of the
Carpathians (outside the borders of 1914 Hungary) until the sixteenth
century herding goats and the like while there were Hungarian universities
in places like Kolozsvar (Cluj) at the time.  The Romanians only trickled
into Transylvania during Ottoman rule because the Hungarians became sort of
depopulated after fighting with the Turks to protect Christianity.  There
did eventually become a Romanian majority in Transylvania, but for you to
say that Transylvania never belonged to Hungary or was Hungarian in spirit
is truly ignorant.  Maybe you Romanians, instead of reading brainwashing
books about unsubstantiated Daco-Roman theories, should read history books
with real physical evidence; not theories blowing in the wind.

Laszlo Koszeghy III
+ - Re: The Rite of Pissing In Different Colours (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  
says...
>
>In article >,  (Wally
>Keeler) wrote:
>
>> In the name of Ms Tristan Tzara
>
>
>tristan tzara was no "ms". tristan tzara was a man.


Yeah! But the  "poet" doesn't like him to have been a man. Therefor, "the 
poet" uses his poetic rights to name whoever HE wants, whatever HE wants.
But, why are we wasting time to teach "the poet" the who, is who in the world.
Anyway, HE won't be able to understand things just the way they are. HE has a 
difformed mind  and the perception is difformed too. It is reflected in each 
and avery "poesy" posted on SCR ever since the dawn of time. 
His luck is that, from time to time a Brigitte praises HIS 'poesy' and the 
'poet' has his mill runing for few more sessions. 
Maybe when they change the wellfare system in Canada, the 'poet' won't have 
time to bother us, being preoccupied meeting the daily ends. Till then, 
chances for HIM to leave the SCR are dimed; he threatened us and the magyar 
group with his resignation, but he doesn't hav eguts to stick to his 
promisses. Anyway, his dream is to become a "phonetic poet" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miha' Olteanu
>
>
>ef
+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Maya chan) wrote:
>In Japanese: "Aishteru"
>In Arabic: "Ahibbek"
>In Spanish: "Yo te quero"
                    ^^^^^

No, no, it's "Yo te quiero". 

>In Persian: "Doserderum"
>In Urdu: "Tum bilkul Mahabbet"
>In California: "Screw You"
+ - Re: Sz.P. gyotrelmei (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
 writes:
>Azt vettem inkabb eszre, hogy SZERETETT HAZAM MAGYARORSZAG ugy ahogy
>vagyok nem tart igenyt ram.

Szeretett hazank senkire nem tart igenyt. Elmultak azok az idok, amikor
ez a szemlelet mukodott, amikor a rendszer gondoskodott (igaz: ugy-ahogy)
mindenkirol. Ha nem vetted volna eszre '89 ota a regi jatekszabaly van me-
gint eletben: "segits magadon es az isten is megsegit".  Es ez igy van
jol.

>Ugy gondoltam, egesz jol megtanultam 
>a fizikat (nem tehetek rola) elmegyek tanitani, hatha valaki kivancsi 
>ilyesmire. Bar kepesitesem kozepfoku, eme tevekenyseget rogton felsofokon 
>sikerult megkezdenem. Munka volt tehat boven, egyszerubb volt benn aludni, 
>mint minden ejjel hazamenni arra a nehany oracskara. A baj a kozertben 
>kezdodott amikor kiderult, hogy munkam ellenerteke enyhen szolva nem 
>versenykepes a tej megszerzeseert vivott harcban.

Ezzel kapcsolatban csupan ket eszrevetelem van:

Te a felveteli elott nem tudtad, hogy  a fizikusi/pedagogusi szakma nem
egy aranybanya ?

Ha ilyen anyagias (penzehes) vagy, akkor minek valasztottad ezt a szak-
mat ? Igy tenyleg egy folytonos frusztracio lehet az eleted...

Tamas
+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Christopher. Armstrong wrote:

>      Oh what a MAN you are!!! What amazing, perfect, specimens of manhood
> ALL of you Italians are!!! Do you know, the rest of the world just lives
> in a constant state of profound jealousy, considering JUST how wonderful
> you and your friends must be!
>    OR,,,  Fotiti, cazzo! - as I believe you dashing Romeos say. Whichever
> you prefer.
>    Ciao.
> >      Chris xxx

Don't you think you are kind of generalizing a little bit?
Why don't you keep your answer to the original sender without including 
all the ones that happen to be of the same nationality?
It appears that you (and NOT all other Englishmen, of course) are a 
little bit biased. Are you?
By the way, it should be "fottiti". I restrain myself to translate what 
you wrote, but let me say it was not very refined (at the least).
Thank you for showing to everyone you are biased.

Ciao

Carmine
+ - Wally & Poetics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Message-ID: >
Laszlo Horvath >wrote:
|The bottom line is that I explicitely stated that I do base my 
|"imprtessions" on your's and Ms Bali's Internet "manifestations". There 
|the majority of your utterances and fragments from your poetry were, to 
|my taste -and all such things are subjective- anachronistic, banal and 
|bombastic. 

"Prose is the kind of writing everybody understands, poetry is the other
kind." Louise Dudek, Montreal poet and critic, in Epigrams (1975)

"And me happiest when I compose poems.
   Love, power, the huzza of battle
   are something, are much;
yet a poem includes them like a pool
   water and reflection.
         Irving Layton, Birth of Tragedy, 1971

|Anachronistic because the age of Dada is over. 

Yes it is, but the repercussions of dada live on. It's called evolution.
The age of Elizabethans is over. The age of the Romantics is over. The age
of Metaphysicals is over. The past is useful insofar as it is something to
build on.

|This age has it's own modernistic spirit and not only I do not have a
|quarrell with it: I love it. 

As do I. 

|"Old-fashioned" modernist in "new-fashioned" modernist surrounding do look
|and sound pathetic. For example every once in a while when I revisit the
|old scenes of my haunts in the "North Beach" part of San Francisco
|(onetime Jack Kerouac, A. Ginsberg, etc. "country") I'd run into some old
|acquaintance not only in the old style hippy garb but frozen into the old
|beat/hippy mindset. The total appearance is of great hangdog pathos.

McLuhan spoke of the absurdity of Bonanzaland. We are speeding into the
future with our eyes fixed on the rear-view mirror. It becomes ludicrous
when we stuff a mid-20th century device (tv) into colonial-style cabinetry.
This is Bonanzaland. 

|And you, Mr Keeler, with your "cyberspace-appearance" -for that's all I 
|know of you, and that's what you can project to you fellow syberspace 
|walkers with your dadastyle manifestos, declarations, phraseoly, project 
|something out-of-datish, anachronistic.

The poems that I posted that you considered good are anachronistic. Lyrical
sensuous poetry a la Cohen has been around for centuries. It will continue
to be around. I hope. 

Interestingly, the university tweedniks, that had given me their support
during the Walking On The Greenhouse Roof era, were driven away in droves
after I had invited them to the "first safe landing of the Peoples Republic
of Poetry." The performance was entitled: TECHNOROTICA. It was a fully
automated multi-media poetry reading utilizing a klutzy robot. The theatre
was wired (bugged). The use of technology disgusted everyone. I lost all my
supporters -- they were not to return for many many years. (Times change).
The milieu that did take me in quite eagerly were the conceptual artists of
the 70's. They were steeped in art, and they knew their art history -- I
did not. My knowledge of it was ankle deep. But I was in tune with this
milieu. 

|Evidently you have a cause and a massage (and that's all right to have 
|one) and you try to sell it. And I pull for you. But you go about it the 
|wrong way. You cannot be taken seriously. Why not compromise a bit? Sure, 
|deflate your ago a bit. Make your "Republic" more friendly and inviting.

That would be antithetical. The last poetry reading performance I did in
Canada was in Ottawa. It was at an art gallery there. Once the audience
assembled, I had units of verse of the unitverse (poetariet) surround the
audience with coils of barbed wire. Poetician 1 came out escorted by two
Insecurity Disservice agents, both bearing UZI submachine guns. They wore
full combat unitforms, except in all white including boots. I wore a white
suit. We all wore chrome faceless shields. This kept our personalities
private and presented instead impersanality. At the podium, the two agents
inserted the ammunition clips into the UZIs and cocked the blocks. I wanted
the audience to hear the sound of metal, to realize that the UZIs were real
and not plastic pretends. Poetician 1 read.

The performance was not liked one bit. I got a lot of hostility. It was
cold and unfriendly. (Precisely). It was threatening, intimidating and
uninviting (Precisely). There were a lot of adjectives thrown and largely I
agreed with the adjectives. 

When I did a similar performance in Lodz, Poland in 1985, it went over like
hotcakes. I didn't bring in the UZIs or barbed wire. Other arrangements
were made. (I used to do a lot of smuggling). But life for the dissident
arts community in Poland was such that they had a far better insight into
my performance than did the Westerners. During the 80's I largely turned my
back on Canada & the West, and directed my attention towards Eastern
Europe.

|Most true and productive artists are quiet and modest about their art. 
|With them their work is the message. 

I understand. In spite of the fact that I am not quiet on Usenet, my
published work after Walking On The Greenhouse Roof (1969) has been done
under assorted pseudonyms. There were a few occassions when I had been
invited to appear on tv talk programs (nothing big like Leno or Letterman)
I sent others to be me. I had not been photographed nor videotaped by
anyone for 17+ years. (What did I do for my passport and visa pics to
Hungary, Polska, Romania, etc? A drastically different appearance and
different name.) There is official public identity and there is private
human identity. When I began to play the government game of wiretaps and
surveillance, I had to learn how to misinform and misidentify and to make
presentations. What I am offline and in person is one thing, what you get
here is another.

|But you build around your minuscule 
|output a "manuscule" mansion, even republic, made up of puff-words and 
|slogans. So that's what becomes your message. And since your Republic is 
|built from puff-words you have to keep frantiqually pumping more puff 
|words into it to keep it from deflating. 

Pity that I am unable to present the larger context of the Peoples Republic
of Poetry to you. It cannot be done in ascii alone. Oh well! I will have to
live with the fact.

|So make poems to be the media of your message.

I don't have a message. I'm not selling anything. Poetry, unless it's
didactic (yech) exists for its own sake. Others sometimes make use of it to
prop up messages, but not I, not overtly. 

|By the way, the poems that you quote here from your volume are good.
|So, in view of that, I upgrade my views of your poetry. However, 
|apologies I do not extend because I had stated that my impressions had 
|been based on your soc.cul.magyar platform utterances.

Oh that sounds more than just to me.

|I also want to let you know that not a complete yahoo "opinioned" about 
|your poetica but a former friend and admirer of the Canadian (Montreal) 
|poet Leonard Cohen, and a onetime friend, "flat-mate" (in Toronto 
|-Madison Ave.) of the poet, translator, compiler (a volume called "How do 
|I love thee"; I hope John included in it something by you) of John Robert 
|Colombo (I did rough translations and "explications" of a number of 
|Hungarian poems for him).

I've always enjoyed the rich sensuousness of Cohen's poetry and the
exquisite imagery he creates. I've leaned more towards Cohen's best friend,
Irving Layton. I will tell you a story about Layton. When I was a
whippersnapper, I took the liberty to mail a few poems to Layton. He wrote
back. Said he didn't usually respond to stuff sent to him, but in my
case... He said that I was still in the "breast-sucking stage" but to
continue for another 5 or ten years and things would be good. As it turned
out he was right. A few years went by, the Peoples Republic of Poetry
established itself, so I mailed to him again, filling him in on my East
European connections. Correspondence exchanged, then one letter from him
said, "Where have you been all my life." So I went to Montreal for audience
with The Poet. What a splendid day we had. Just before leaving, he asked me
how I escaped. "Uh?" "How did you escape to be like this?" "Escape what?"
"Your purebred Canadian WASP upbringing?" 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Ms Tristan Tzara; Frequently Un-Asked Questions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
> In the name of Ms Tristan Tzara

In >
 wrote: 
|tristan tzara was no "ms". tristan tzara was a man.

You are quite Ms Informed. Evidently, you have learned nothing from the
study of dada, so here's the data ditto:

                                   +
                                   !
                   0       o      <O>      o       0
                   \\      |      |^|      |      //
                   ( \____/^\____/|||\____/^\____/ )      
                   (TRISTAN TZARA FU-AQ, Rel. 1.101)
                   (=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=)
                    ```````````````````````````````


oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo\ /oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||0|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo/ \oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
|o                                                                   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                          DadAIst MAniFeSto                        o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Art, in its execution and direction, is dependent upon the time   o|
|o in which it lives, and artists are creatures of their epoch. The  o|
|o highest art will be the one that presents in its contents of      o|
|o consciousness the thousand-fold problems of the time; to which    o|
|o one may note that this art allows itself to be tossed by the      o|
|o explosions of the last week, that it pieces together its parts    o|
|o again and again while being shoved by the day before.             o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o ...                                                               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o What exactly is DADAISM? The word Dada symbolizes the primitive   o|
|o relationship to the ambient reality; with Dadaism a new reality   o|
|o achieves its majority. Life appears as a simultaneous confusion   o|
|o of noises, colors, and mental rhythms that is absorbed cold-eyed  o|
|o into a Dadaistic art with all the sensational screams and         o|
|o feverishness of its deviant everyday psyche and in its total,     o|
|o brutal reality... Dadaism, for one thing, no longer stands aside  o|
|o from life in an aesthetic manner in that it shreds into its       o|
|o component parts all the jargon of ethics, culture, and an         o|
|o interiority that is only a jacket for weak muscles.               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The BRUITISTIC poem shows a streetcar just as it is, the essence  o|
|o of the streetcar with the yawning of the pensioner Schulze and    o|
|o the scream of the brakes.                                         o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The SIMULTANEOUS poem teaches the meaning of the jumbleness of    o|
|o all things, while Herr Schulze reads, the Balkan express crosses  o|
|o a bridge near Nisch, a pig bawls in the cellar at Nuttke the      o|
|o butcher's.                                                        o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The STATIC poem makes individuals of words, the woods with its    o|
|o treetops, foresters' liverys, and wild boars spets out of the     o|
|o three letters "woods," maybe a small hotel even steps out, with   o|
|o the name Bellevue of Bella Vista.                                 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Dadaism leads to unheard of new possibilities and forms of        o|
|o expression in all the arts.                                       o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The word Dada points at the same time to the internationalism of  o|
|o the movement which is bound to no borders, religions or           o|
|o professions. Dada is the international expression of all these    o|
|o offensives, peace congresses, ruckus at the vegetable market,     o|
|o suppers on the Esplanade, etc. etc.                               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Dada is a CLUB founded in Berlin that one can enter without       o|
|o taking on any responsibilities...                                 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o To say yes -- to say no; mighty hocus pocus of existence gives    o|
|o winds to the nerves of the true Dadaist -- he lies like this, he  o|
|o hunts like this, he cycles like this -- half Pantagruel, half     o|
|o Franziskus and laughs and laughs. Down with the aesthetic-ethical o|
|o attitude! Down with the bloodless abstraction of expressionism!   o|
|o Down with holier than-thou theories of the literary fools! We are o|
|o for Dadaism in word and image, for the Dadaistic happening in the o|
|o world.                                                            o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o To be against this manifesto is to be a Dadaist!                  o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Tristan Tzara, Franz Jung, George Grosz, Marcel Janco, Richard    o|
|o Hulsenbeck, Gerhard Preiss, Raoul Hausmann, Others.               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                          CABARET VOLTAIRE                         o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o On February 5, 1916 in Spiegelgasse, Zurich, Switzerland, Hugo    o|
|o Ball and Emmy Hennings opened the Cabaret Voltaire in a small     o|
|o bar. The press release read: "Cabaret Voltaire. Under this name a o|
|o group of young artists and writers has been formed whose aim is   o|
|o to create a centre for artistic entertainment. The idea of the    o|
|o cabaret will be that guest artists will come and give musical     o|
|o performances and readings at the daily meetings. The young        o|
|o artists of Zurich, whatever their orientation, are invited to     o|
|o come along with suggestions and contributions of all kinds."      o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o This was the calling card for Tristan Tzara to enter stage right. o|
|o She arrived with three other men, including the painter, Marcel   o|
|o Janco. Hugo Ball recalled them as "an oriental-looking deputation o|
|o of four" bearing portfolios and paintings.                        o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The bar was overflowing with people. Hugo Ball recalled that      o|
|o "...Tzara read some traditional-style poems, which she fished out o|
|o of her various coat pockets in a rather charming way," reading to o|
|o the accompaniment of a balalaika.                                 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Cabaret Voltaire became a "playground for crazy emotions" with    o|
|o the presentation of many collaborative works by Arp, Huelsenbeck, o|
|o Tzara, Janco, Hennings and others. On March 14, 1916 (French      o|
|o Soiree Night) Tzara performed poems written by Max Jacob, Andre   o|
|o Salmon, and Laforgue.                                             o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o But things were becoming too tame for Tzara. She decided on       o|
|o March 30, 1916, to initiate a new concept of poetry reading.      o|
|o Huelsenbeck, Janco and Tzara recited the poetry of Henri Barzun,  o|
|o Fernand Divoire and one of their own poems -- simultaneously.     o|
|o Hugo Ball described it thusly:                                    o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o      "...a contrapuntal recitative in which three or more         o|
|o      voices speak, sing, whistle, etc. at the same time,          o|
|o      in such a way that the elegiac, humorous, or bizarre         o|
|o      content of the piece is brought out by these combinations.   o|
|o      In such a simultaneous poem, the wilful quality of an        o|
|o      organic work is given powerful expression, and so is         o|
|o      its limitation by the accompaniment. Noises (an rrrr         o|
|o      drawn out for minutes, or crashes, or sirens, etc.)          o|
|o      are superior to the human voice in energy."                  o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Zurich was fermenting a heady brew for the twentieth century.     o|
|o Lenin, Zinoviev, the German Expressionist artists, Rubiner and    o|
|o Frank, the writer Wedekind who was famous for his earlier urinary o|
|o and masturbatory practices in the cabarets of Munich, and other   o|
|o rabble from Eastern Europe, were all hanging out in the dissident o|
|o communities of Zurich. One of the performers of Cabaret Voltaire, o|
|o Hans Arp, described the scene:                                    o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o      "On the stage of a gaudy, motley, overcrowded tavern         o|
|o      there are several weird and peculiar figures                 o|
|o      representing Tzara, Janco, Ball, Huelsenbeck, Madame         o|
|o      Hennings, and your humble servant. Total pandemonium.        o|
|o      The people around us are shouting, laughing,                 o|
|o      gesticulating. Our replies are sighs of love, volleys        o|
|o      of hiccups, poems, moos, and miaowing of medieval            o|
|o      Bruitists. Tzara is wiggling her behind like the belly       o|
|o      of an oriental dancer. Janco is playing an invisible         o|
|o      violin ... Madame Hennings, with a Madonna face, is          o|
|o      doing the splits ... We were given the honourary title       o|
|o      of Nihilists."                                               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Huelsenbeck said that Tzara and company never neglected "tell the o|
|o fat and utterly uncomprehending Zurich philistines that we        o|
|o regarded them as pigs and the German kaiser as the initiator of   o|
|o the war."                                                         o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The ephemerality of the art-occurrences at Cabaret Voltaire       o|
|o troubled Tzara. She wanted the creativity to be recorded and      o|
|o manifested in a periodical which would document the movement and  o|
|o this in turn would be used to assault the art community in Paris. o|
|o There was resistance to Tzara's plan among the Voltairists -- a   o|
|o whim should not be organized. It was at this time that            o|
|o Huelsenbeck and Ball coined the word DADA. The word was found by  o|
|o serendipitous means in a German-French dictionary.                o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o After only five months of turbulent creativity, Cabaret Voltaire, o|
|o closed down and Tzara turned her attention to the fun and         o|
|o flourish of DADA.                                                 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                         DADA FOUNDATION                           o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Dada went public for the first time in Zurich, at Waag Hall.      o|
|o Tristan described her own role on this occasion in her "Zurich    o|
|o Chronicle:"                                                       o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 o|
|o 0                                                               0 o|
|o 0                        14 July 1916                           0 o|
|o 0            For the first time anywhere: Waag Hall:            0 o|
|o 0                     FIRST DADA EVENING                        0 o|
|o 0            (Music dances theories manifestos poems            0 o|
|o 0                   paintings costumes masks)                   0 o|
|o 0                                                               0 o|
|o 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o     "In the presence of a compact crowd Tzara demonstrates,       o|
|o     we demand the right to piss in different colours,             o|
|o     Huelsenbeck demonstrates, Ball demonstrates, Arp              o|
|o     Erklarung, Janco meine Bilder, Heusser eigene                 o|
|o     Kompositionen, the dogs bay and the dissection of             o|
|o     Panama on the piano on the piano and dock -- shouted          o|
|o     Poem -- shouting and fighting in the hall, first row          o|
|o     approves second row declares itself incompetent to            o|
|o     judge the rest shout, who is the strongest, the big           o|
|o     drum is brought in, Huelsenbeck against 200, Hoosenlatz       o|
|o     accentuated by the very big drum and little bells on          o|
|o     his left foot -- the people protest shout smash               o|
|o     windowpanes kills each demolish fight her comes the           o|
|o     police interruption.                                          o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o     "Boxing resumed: Cubist dance, costumes by Janco, each        o|
|o     man his own big drum on his head, noise, Negro music/         o|
|o     trabatgea bonoooooooo oo oooooo/5 literary experiments:       o|
|o     Tzara in tails stands before the curtain, stone sober         o|
|o     for the animals, and explains the new aesthetic:              o|
|o     gymnastic poem, concert of vowels, bruitist poem, static      o|
|o     poem chemical arrangement of ideas, Biriboom biriboom         o|
|o     saust der Och im Kreis herum, vowel poem aao ieo aii,         o|
|o     new interpretation the subjective folly of the arteries       o|
|o     the dance of the heart on burning buildings and               o|
|o     acrobatics in the audience. More outcries, the big drum,      o|
|o     piano and impotent cannon, cardboard costumes torn off        o|
|o     the audience hurls itself into puerperal fever interrupt.     o|
|o     The newspapers dissatisfied simultaneous poem for 4           o|
|o     voices + simultaneous work for 300 hopeless idiots."          o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Tzara was revelling in her element and planning to storm Paris    o|
|o with a hurricane of dada. Her activities focused on this assault. o|
|o She needed to solidify it. The performance had to become          o|
|o concrete, so Tzara planned an anthology. Hugo Ball and            o|
|o Huelsenbeck were opposed on the philosophical grounds of          o|
|o oxymoronism -- it was not a concept to be 'organized.' The        o|
|o arguement was that "one should not turn a whim into an artistic   o|
|o school."                                                          o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Ball and Huelsenbeck coined the word, dada. They had dug it up    o|
|o from a German/French dictionary. It was to be bequeathed to       o|
|o Madame le Roy, the singer of the group. Ball declared that the    o|
|o word for Germans meant "foolish naivete, joy in procreation and   o|
|o preoccupation with the baby carriage." It was hobby horse in      o|
|o French and "yes, yes" in Romanian.                                o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The group handled the word like a child handles Silly Putty.      o|
|o On June 18/16, Ball wrote: "We have now driven the plasticity of  o|
|o the word to the point where it can scarely be equalled. We        o|
|o achieved this at the expense of the rational, logically           o|
|o constructed sentence, & also by abandoning documentary work ..."  o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Tzara, in the meantime, was planning a long range future for      o|
|o dada. She had earned a mild contempt from the others of the       o|
|o Voltaire Society. As Huelsenbeck put it, Tzara "concentrated on   o|
|o her correspondence with Rome and Paris, remaining the             o|
|o international intellectual playing with the ideas of the world."  o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Immediately following the Waag Hall First Dada Evening, Tzara     o|
|o published "La Premiere Aventure celeste de M. Antipyrine" and the o|
|o first edition of "Collection Dada."                               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Several months later, in January, 1917, Galerie Corray hosted the o|
|o first public exhibition of dada. Tzara presented seminars in      o|
|o Cubism, then another about Old and New Art, and another about Art o|
|o of the Present. Eventually, Tzara and Ball took over the gallery  o|
|o and renamed it Galerie Dada on March 17, 1917. It lasted for      o|
|o eleven weeks. Ball had already escaped to the Alps, while         o|
|o Huelsenbeck found his way to Berlin. Meanwhile, Tzara toughed it  o|
|o out in Zurich, pumping irony into the dada magazine with          o|
|o manifestoes.                                                      o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o In 1918, Francis Picabia, took up with the Tristan Tzara crowd    o|
|o while attending a swank bubbly party at the Hotel Elite in        o|
|o Zurich. Picabia was a collaborator with Marcel Duchamp at the     o|
|o infamous exhibition which featured "Fountain", the upsidedown     o|
|o urinal presented by Duchamp. Tzara welcomed Picabia, "Long live   o|
|o Descartes, long live Picabia the anti-painter just arrived from   o|
|o New York!"                                                        o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o With these new collaborators, a Tristan Tzara night was organized o|
|o for July 23, 1918 at the salle zur Meise. Tzara read the first    o|
|o actual Dada manifesto:                                            o|
|o                       "Let us destroy                             o|
|o                       let us be good                              o|
|o                       let us create                               o|
|o                       a new force of gravity                      o|
|o                       NO = YES                                    o|
|o                       Dada means nothing...                       o|
|o                       The bourgeois salad                         o|
|o                       in the eternal basin is insipid             o|
|o                       and I hate good sense."                     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o As usual, a riot ensued. This assured many more such dada events. o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                        THE ZURICH FINALE                          o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o April 9, 1919, Saal zur Kaufleuten: it was to be Tristan's        o|
|o farewell to Zurich. With typical Tzara florish, "1500 persons     o|
|o filled the hall already boiling in the bubbles of bamboulas."     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The audience was primed for dada turbulence and Tzara provided    o|
|o the ignition. Twenty people stepped onto the stage to read        o|
|o Tzara's simultaneous poem, Le Fievre du Male. It was reported     o|
|o that "all hell broke loose . . . Shouts, whistles, chanting in    o|
|o unison, laughter all of which mingled more or less anti-          o|
|o harmoniously with the bellowing of the twenty on the platform."   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Tzara reported that the performance established "the circuit of   o|
|o absolute consciousness in the audience which forgot the frontiers o|
|o of prejudices, experienced the commotion of the NEW." Then Tzara  o|
|o headed for Paris.                                                 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                         DADA MANIFESTS IN PARIS                   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Picabia's home was the first crash pad for Tzara on his arrival   o|
|o in Paris. There was a knock on the door, there was Tzara, there   o|
|o was the couch, goodnight. Tzara's reputation preceeded him. The   o|
|o renown 'Litterature' group met at the Cafe Certa and the Petit    o|
|o Grillon, where the first Dada soiree was planned. On Friday,      o|
|o January 23, 1920, Tzara took to the platform at the Palais des    o|
|o Fetes. Jean Cocteau and Andre Breton had already preceeded him.   o|
|o But things were looking up now. Tzara announced that he was going o|
|o to read a poem, then pulled out a "vulgar" newspaper article and  o|
|o read it with the accompaniment of an "inferno of bells and        o|
|o rattles."                                                         o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Ribemont-Dessaignes wrote, "The destructive aspect of Dada        o|
|o appeeared to them more clearly; the resultant indignation of the  o|
|o public which had come to beg for an artistic pittance, no matter  o|
|o what, as long as it was art, the effect...showed them how useless o|
|o it was..."                                                        o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o RoseLee Goldberg wrote: "Although the Zurich and Paris            o|
|o ingredients were the same -- provocations against a respectful    o|
|o audience -- it was clear that the transplant had been sccessful." o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The next blitz of Dada was planned for May 26/20 at the swanky    o|
|o Salle Gaveau. It was to be no less than a festival of Dada. The   o|
|o infighting amongst the dadaists was fierce. The fundamental       o|
|o quarral lay in dada's continuity. Tzara and Breton chained their  o|
|o future to dada and consequently they were the most forceful       o|
|o proponents of continuity, however, they were in a constant        o|
|o sibling rivalry as to the direction of the continuity.            o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The Salle Gaveau held a huge crowd anticipating god knows what.   o|
|o Breton appeared with a pistol taped to each temple, weaponry ear  o|
|o muffs against the cold of society. Tzara presented "Vaseline      o|
|o Symphonique" a piece involving twenty members. The great Gaveau   o|
|o family were appalled to hear their great organs being used to     o|
|o beat out a foxtrot, Le Pelican. Finally, Tzara's La Deuxieme      o|
|o Aventure de Monsieur Aa, l'Antipyrine was the final load of the   o|
|o night -- eggs, tomatoes and, for god's sake, veal cutlets,        o|
|o bombarded the performers.                                         o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o     THE TRIAL AND SENTENCING OF M. MAURICE BARRES BY DADA         o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o It was a year of endless quarreling among the dadaists concerning o|
|o the form that dada was to manifest itself in performance art. The o|
|o mimicry of trial was the sustained metaphor. Not only was Barres  o|
|o to be put on trial, but so was society, and without premediation, o|
|o dada itself was put on trial.                                     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Barres was well established within the Paris literati and         o|
|o somewhat of an object of admiration by the Paris dadaists. The    o|
|o admiration turned bitter when Barres became chief propagandist    o|
|o for L'Echo de Paris, a right wing reactionary paper. He was       o|
|o charged with "an offence against the security of the mind."       o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Breton was the judge. Tzara, among others was a witness. The      o|
|o animosities between Breton and Tzara burst into the open. Breton  o|
|o laid into Tzara who had testified that "we are all nothing but a  o|
|o pack of fools, and that consequently the little difference --     o|
|o bigger fools or asmaller fools -- make no difference." Breton,    o|
|o dripping with rage, accused Tzara, "Does the witness insist on    o|
|o acting like an utter imbecile, or is he trying to get himself put o|
|o away."                                                            o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o                      Tzara broke in to song.                      o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o The following . . .                                               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o [UNDer CONstructION]. . .                                         o|
|o [SUSPENSion bRIDGE over]+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+                     o|
|o [stILL WATers]          =====================                     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Material yet to be de-digitized:                                  o|
|o 10010101100010010010110010111010100010101010010100100100100010010 o|
|o 11001010100101010101010010000101111010101010101010101010101001001 o|
|o skidmarks on the infobahn ======================================= o|
|o 10010000101100101010100101010100100010101010101001001101010110001 o|
|o 00101101010000101010100100010000101100100101100101010000100111110 o|
|o binary borsch 010010110010111010100010101010010100100100100010010 o|
|o 10101010100101010101010010000101111010101010101010101010101001001 o|
|o 10110010101010010101010010001010101010100100110101011000101001000 o|
|o 00101101001010101010100100010000101100100101100101010000100111110 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o *FU-AQ: Frequently Un-Asked Questions                             o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o Bibliography:                                                     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o APOLLINAIRE, Guillaume, Apollinaire on Art, Essays and Reviews    o|
|o     1902-1918, ed. L.C.Breunig, New York, 1972.                   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o BALL, Hugo, Flight Out of Time. A Dada Diary. New York, 1974.     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o GOLDBERG, RoseLee. Performance: Live Art 1909 to the Present,     o|
|o     New York, 1979.                                               o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o HUELSENBECK, Richard. Memoirs of a Dada Drummer, New York, 1974.  o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o LIPPARD, Lucy. Dadas On Art, Englewood Cliffs, N.J., 1971.        o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o MATTHEWS, John H. Theatre in Dada & Surrealism, Syracuse, NY 1974 o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o MCLUHAN, Marshall. Verbi-Voco-Visual Explorations, NYC, 1967.     o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o MOTHERWELL, Robert. ed. The Dada Painters and Poets, N.Y. 1951.   o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o RICHTER, Hans. Dada, Art and Anti-Art, London, 1965.              o|
|o                                                                   o|
|o STEINKE, Gerhardt Edward. The Life and Work of Hugo Ball.         o|
|o     The Hague, 1967.                                              o|
|o                                                                   o|
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oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo/ \oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Mr Bland Gland Should Study Mark Cristian (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ok, here's a hint. No, here's an unsubtle suggestion. Over the past year I
have often been involved in flame squirmishes with Mark Cristian, a high
end Romanian curmudgeon. He has an invincible spirit of life and combat. I
think I have the better score overall in our squirmishes, but, I post here
a fine example of some of his creative wit. He had once posted a crappy
"limerick", actually it wasn't a limerick at all, but just some crappy
doggerel. A handful of months go by, then, poof, out comes this little gem
that hit me right between the eyes. It was a fine hit. It was a quality hit.
It was up to the standards of Brigitta Bali's BLAND GLAND hit on Gabor
Barsai. I was hoping to provoke a hit from anyone in the SCM crowd that
could reach the level of wit and humour achieved by Mark Cristian. This is
Mark's gem:

$           Oali thinks he's a real flamer,
$           but really they don't come much tamer
$           he squeaks and he rants
$           with his hand in his pants
$           in short; he's a typical lamer.
$
$           I know he thinks he's a real flamer,
$           but he's sadder than Sienfeld and Kramer
$           He yells and he squeals
$           'till we all lose our meals,
$           I repeat, he's a typical lamer.

BTW, Oali is pronounced Wally. 

Aside from Joe Pannon, Pannonescu, Panonymous, Well HUNGary, Mr FUNgarian,
it has been a disappointment hanging out in SCM, and Joe does some of his best
work in soc.culture.romanian. I know it is not typical of Hungary nor of
Hungarians as a whole, but the level of wit displayed in SCM is a fraction of
what can be found in soc.culture.romanian. It is regretable but true.

SCR has a number of posters who can hang-glide for hours on end on waves of
wit: Miha Ahronovitz, Cristian Tomescu, Bulibash.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Re: Ms Tristan Tzara; Frequently Un-Asked Questions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Wally Keeler wrote:
> 
> In article >,
>  (Wally Keeler) wrote:
> > In the name of Ms Tristan Tzara
> 
> In >
>  wrote:
> |tristan tzara was no "ms". tristan tzara was a man.
> 
> You are quite Ms Informed. Evidently, you have learned nothing from the
> study of dada, so here's the data ditto:
> --
> Wally Keeler                                    Poetry
> Creative Intelligence Agency                    is
> Peoples Republic of Poetry                      Poetency

Mr. Keeler, you've got plenty of cheeks. I think you're Mr. Goebels 
reincarnate. Or a ex-minister of propaganda from Ceacescu's regime. You 
screw up something and instead of saying I goofed fellows you try to 
prove that black is white or vice versa.
When I first started noticing your "neo-nonsenses" I've just thought to 
myself that there you were a cyberspace equivalent one of those harmless 
nitwitss that hang around liberal universities for years, muttering to 
themselves by a cup of coffee if not able to pester others with their 
half baked ideas. And I am glad that they are tolarated.
You, however, in the name of your "obsession" (and it's pretty difficult 
to say what the hell it is exactly) are ready to cheat, to twist things 
around.
First you goof up in a hurry and when someone points out to you that you 
goofed up you get rude, and to make it worse, you quote extensively from 
the history of Dada (here and there in much to loose a fashion) hoping 
that people will forget the real point. The issue is that Tristan Tzara 
(and not Tsara) was in fact a person (and not some sort of idea, 
symbolism, or some shamanic incantation) and was a "he". Actually it 
shouldn't matter one way or another. Dadaist are as rare as dodo birsds 
(you must be the last one!). Dada was a lot of fashionable noise in its 
days.
What matters, however, is that you're not just a harmless perennial 
college campus local idiot, mumbling his mantras interminable, but a 
conscious twister of facts. That may not matter at all since the end 
(i.e. the end -goal- of your message is really of no consequence -unlike 
a Mr. Simon who, by some stupid unquoted quote hinted that Hungary and 
Hungarian language were somehow responsible for the Balkan Wars of 
"1910-1912" [sic] [i.e.. 1912-1913]; this kind of nonsense is damaging, 
since there are too many and too naive surfers on the Net and that might 
be the only thing they would ever hear of Hungary and Hungarians). But 
"dada" dadaism, facts and distortions about it won't damage any body.
My quarrell with you however is that you'rer striking out left and right 
as some sort of Don Quixote of poetic justice, putting "yahoos" into 
their places, hurling insults, etc. Of all people you're the least 
qualified to be the champion of poetry.
You should take take off your present "shingle" and put up something 
like: Creative Manipulation of Ideas Agency, Peoples Republic of 
Ceaucescu" and change your slogan to "Poetry is double talk!"
Sincerely, Laszlo.
P.s. 
Earlier you quoted from the introduction to your volume of poetry and it 
struck me that there was reference to your youth as a barefoot lad from 
Couborn of Colborne, Ont. Which one was it? If it's the Colborne through 
which the CNR and CPR run (I used to work on both on them as a dining car 
waiter) and is close to Highway 2, coincidentally was founded by an 
immigrant from Vermont State, called James Keeler. Since your name is 
Keeler it just occured to me that you might have some connnection with 
Colborne's first settler. But if you birth place is Colbourne (or is it 
spelled Couborne, Port Couborn?) I know that too. I used to rome those 
parts of Ontario, working on farms, including in Saint Catherines and 
Delhi (in Dalhi on tobacco farms)
Sincerely, Laszlo
+ - Re: The Rite of Pissing In Different Colours (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 > wrote:
>In article >,  (Wally
>Keeler) wrote:
>> In the name of Ms Tristan Tzara
>
>tristan tzara was no "ms". tristan tzara was a man.
>ef

He tried to pee too high, and Ms Fired. Right in his pants.
GK
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
> Mazeratti and Lamborghini are poetry.
I.e..: Distant, unaffordable and useless.

> Ford and Chrysler are after the masses,

Available, affordable, useful.
+ - Re: Mr Bland Gland Should Study Mark Cristian (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Wally
Keeler) wrote:

> Aside from Joe Pannon, Pannonescu, Panonymous, Well HUNGary, Mr FUNgarian,
> it has been a disappointment hanging out in SCM, and Joe does some of his bes
t
> work in soc.culture.romanian. I know it is not typical of Hungary nor of
> Hungarians as a whole, but the level of wit displayed in SCM is a fraction of
> what can be found in soc.culture.romanian. It is regretable but true.


oh i don't know wal... see the problem is that i do not find you
particularly witty. not do i find ms. bali particularly witty. (mr. pannon
i find particlularly nasty, but that don't witty make either)

so you see, to get into fun verbal badinage with you is... not an option.
for me.

mostly you guys seem so very badly want to be noticed. in your case, you
seem so very badly want to be, i suppose, validated in some fashion by
eastern europeans. and as you do not seem to speak the languages in
question, i am afraid much of the, well, sometimes, humourous twists of
the native interchanges (mr. szaszvari, mr. nagy, come to mind... and how
can we forget mr pelo-horvath-magyaraszonnyok-etc...heh... a real hoot!),
is lost on you.

none of your interchanges with mr. barsai, kovacs (i forget the names)
were... well, funny. instead they were just a tiny bit sad. all those tiny
insults. all those timy ignorances flying back and forth. not sad enough
for true tragic relief either... which may have provided me at least some
exhiliration. just a tiny bit silly-sad. 

oh wally. you are so... <sigh>... canadian. which may serve as the reason
for your spectacular unsuccess on this particular forum.

regards
ef
+ - Re: "romania" is a province of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
(Antonio) wrote:

> "The landmass most people call 'romania' is actually a province of Hungary.
> The people who live there speak a dialect of Italian.   However, Hungary rule
s
> this territory.   If the Hungarians wanted it back they would take it.
> The Hungarians would hardly even have to fight, because they are brilliant
> strategists --some of the best chess players are Hungarian -- whereas the
> people of the province of 'romania' are mostly poor, illiterate peasants.  
> They are emotional and quarrelsome, worse than the Italians."
> 
>                                      --Vladimir Zhirinovsky
>                                        Press release to Hungarian journalists
>                                        Moscow, 28 March 1996

When you have Zhirinovsky on your side, you have to start to worry...

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
+ - Re: This newsgroup (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
George Szaszvari > wrote:
>>if your fellow man somewhere else reads it on a 80 char. wide monitor in text
>>mode, the lines will be somewhat disorganized (ko'cos). That has nothing to
>> do with stupidity.
>
>Yes, it is stupid when our friend presumes to lecture us on the rights and
>wrongs of the Internet.

That is indeed, but as you see that was not my point. Just having text longer 
than 80 char/line is not stupid. However it's ignorant.

To Zoli Fekete: the use of the word 'Internet' as a collective term of the 
computer networks of Planet Earth is rather common. Wrong, but common. Not 
being able to tell the difference is unfortunate, but by itself not stupid. If 
we call someone stupid, might as well refer to something more supporting.
GK
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>In article >,
>Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>>To be fair to Wally, when he's not making a fool of himself babbling about
>>his (non-existent) poetic creativity, his posts usually contain useful
>>information, or at least I find.
>>Gabor
>
>In >
 (Gyorgy Kovacs) wrote:
>|That sounds like a very accurate description if the situation.
>
>If the situation what...?
>
>Uh?

You are probably the only one unable to recognize a typo. Go grab your text 
book. You have been warned also.
+ - Re: Mr. Keeler & his poetry! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>In article >,  > wrote:
>>Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>>>
>>>To be fair to Wally, when he's not making a fool of himself babbling about
>>>his (non-existent) poetic creativity, his posts usually contain useful
>>>information, or at least I find.
>>>
>>>Gabor
>>
>>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>>
>>>That sounds like a very accurate description of the situation.
>>>Gyuri
>>
>>Do I see a white flag going up here?  Good!
>>OK, Wally, be magnanimous now!  No need to rub it in.
>>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ----|
>>Joe                                                           |
>                                                               |
>No white flag. Just credit where it's due.                     |
>GK                                                             |
                                                                |
                 He won't. He has Brigi to do the dirty work. <-|

                                            ;->
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri Guzzles Grape Juice (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
 (Gyorgy Kovacs) wrote:
>|Closing comments: I don't have to be perfect in spelling or grammar, since
>|I don't claim to be a poet or native speaker of this great language.
>
>Although you claim the arrogant position to suggest English lessons for
>others.

Nope, just you Wally, you seem to need it really bad. Still.

> Thanks, you just pulled the rug out from under yourself.

Yes, I sensed that you need a lot of help, runnig out of brainpower.

>|Wally claims both, you claim to be a poet.
>
>We do. We are.

You do, you aren't.

>|I don't have to be a master cook to determine whether the food tastes good
>|or not. (I hope you are able to comprehend the analogy.)
>
>This is the case for the pedestrian simple-minded. However, you have to be
>informed if you want to be conversant as to why the food may or may not
>taste good, or rather, taste exquisite, spicy, bland, zestful, and a
>thousand other permutations. 

Wrong! If you screw up your food (poetry) the consumer won't give a damn why 
it tastes bad. Fix a good one, than serve it if you still have customers in 
your restaurant.

>Yes my dear Penury Gyuri, there are wine
>tasters and there are grape juice guzzlers. You are a grape juice guzzler
>and yes I believe you when you say that this or that grape juice is good or
>not good. (I hope you are able to comprehend the implications.)
>
Well, its not you who has a profesional wine-tasters' licence.

>|You are bored and boring.
>
>You are dumb and dumber,
You are more and more arrogant as you're losing the game and your temper.

And the story goes on and on and on .......

Bye now chef, I have to leave. I have reservation in G. Faludy's restaurant
(i.e. I borrowed his poems to read them. Curiousity.)
GK
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
> I am
>calling you on it because you have assumed, arbitrarily, the position of
>being on sentry duty for English. 

Nope, its only important for a 'poet wanna-be' like you to have proper English.
Take the necessary courses. And keep the dictionary handy.
+ - Re: Autonomy for Transylvania! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 05 May 1996 23:09:12 GMT, Ferenc Istvan Vaski wrote :

>>World War I - Romania started and finished the war on the allied side.
>>During the war, it bowed to superior german arms and concluded a separate
>>peace with the central powers to avoid annihilation. Towards the end of
>>the war, when it could, it rejoined the allied fight and probably saved
>>the lives of many English, French, American, and Italian soldiers by
>>drawing central power troops away from their fronts. Romania was awarded
>>Transylvania after the war.
(end  (T.M.Lutas) quote)
>
>....This is a fair bit off from anything I have ever seen...started
>and finished on the allied side?...hardly..Romania was a member of the
>Triple-Alliance...it signed a secret agreement with the Russians in
>the fall of 1914 which promised ALL Hungarian territories with ANY
>amount of Romanians in them to Romania...In 1915 Romania was STILL a
>part of the Triple-Alliance...

?!?
Maybe an economic treaty with Austro-Hungaria means "member of the
Triple-Alliance"... ?

>Prime Minister Tisza's opinion was
>correct..."Romania's leaders are fence-sitting oppurtunists.." in
>other words at that point Romania was an *ally* to all the belligerent
>parties...it only actively entered the war in 1916...

You are trying to apply here criteria that don't have anything to do
with politics.
Everything in politics is opportunity. If a stateman had the chance
and didn't take it, it will hit hard many generations to come.

From this point of view 1918 was a total success of the romanian
political class.They knew how to turn a military defeat (I will
clarify your confusion in the matter right after this ) into a
political victory. Does that mean that hungarian politicians
weren't so abile ? I guess not; it was just that the romanian view
on the future of the South Eastern Europe was more adequate in the
eyes of The Great Powers just because it was natural.

>officially still
>an ally of the Monarchy...when the Russians broke thru the
>Carpathians and grabbed approx. 300,000 prisoners...(!)  ..it THEN
>declared war on the Central Powers and attacked Transylvania...which
>was defenseless...although again only after recieving assurances  from
>the allied powers that it would recieve Transylvania, and Banat as
>well as a huge portion the of Hungarian lowlands.. 

The agreement was that Romania will attack Austro-Hungaria (which was
a stinkin' corpse already) and the allies will break in the Balkans.
They didn't, so when the german troops showed up to help the empire, the
bulgarians attacked from the south. Now the romanians were outnumbered and
caught from two sides; the former allies, russians (which, you think, were the
main factor on the eastern front) were now out, as Lenin began experimenting
a theory put together over a beer by some marxengels.

However, the germans could only occupy half of the Principalities,
and signed, Vichy-style, a peace treaty with Romania.

>Romania marched into Transylvania in
>total violation of the agreement it had signed with Hungary as well as
>in violation of the armistice signed at Padua, Italy on Nov.3
>1918....should I go on?...somewhere in here I must be missing the part
>about it *rejoining the allied fight*....

Romania didn't "marched into", Romania WAS there...

Transilvania decided, by itself, to unite with Romania.
How come it was able to achieve it now, and it wasn't able a hundred
years before ?
The explanation is very simple : romanian representativity in Dieta
changed from 8 in a total of over 300 to the natural ratio of 70%.


>... Romania windmilled it's way thru both wars and
>was a total oppurtunist ...esp. when it could take advantage of
>of any *defencless* situation...particularly the incursion onto
>Hungarian territory under the protection of the French in 1919...

If you're talking about wiping off the communist Bela Kun puppet government,
you should be thankful to Maniu. As for "the protection of France"...
you missed.

>...as well as ignoring it's commitment to an
>alliance it had with Poland ....

Missed again.

>...Buchrest was an eager partner and loyal ally to the Germans...under
>this it took back Bukovina and Bessarbia...until the Soviets bounced
>back and then Romania switched sides and declared war on it's
>allies..

I find normal that Romania was looking for a way to get back Basarabia
and Bucovina; it was not Antonescu's best choice to fight on the german
side ( since they signed the infamous Ribbentrop - Molotov pact )

>taking Transylvania with Soviet forces...instilling their will
>with such brutal force and atrocities that Stalin intervened and
>actually expelled the Romanian administration and installed  a Russian
>Military government...

Sorry, but... you missed again.


>...These borders were created with penstrokes...after dubious
>manipulation of the facts and with obvious atonement in mind...were

ALL borders are created with penstrokes, and Europe is still a collection
of nation-states. The few exceptions had been the inspiration in creating EU.

>those not the words from the French delegations leader to Trianon?...
>"Hungary must atone..." ...atone for what?...for lands that for over a
>thousand years had been under the Crown of St.Istvan?...

It's hard to answer such an enormity.
1. It hadn't.
2. Let's pretend it had been; 
If after one thousand years of foreign domination romanian culture is not only
alive and well, but dominant in the area, then something with that Stefan's
Crown wasn't quite popular.

And if you rule with precedents, you're condamned to get nowhere.

But, of course, when the self esteem is low, there comes the "tradition",
the flag, the hymn, the historical "dignity", something to keep you going...

I'm just so surprised to find it at you, people, too. I used to think,
when I was younger, that it was the privilege of the romanians... 

td
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri (Whatever the heck that means) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It would have been your first creative post if it wasn't full of your usual 
petty lies, misquotes and whines. Take your head out of your hubby's rear and 
use it for thinking for a change.

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
<------------------------->

Well, you know what she wrote.
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri (Whatever the heck that means) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>                                        Boyoboy, Penury Gyuri has a
>                                        strong suckupability quotient!
>
I'm touched, but its not nice to promote oral sex in the ng.:-)
+ - Re: "I love you" in many languages Re: Please help tran (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

...  :``..': 
                   : ````.'   :''::
                ..:..  :     .'' :
             ``.    `:    .'     :
                 :    :   :        :
                  :   :   :         :
                  :    :   :        :
                   :    :   :..''''``::.
                    : ...:..'     .''
                    .'   .'  .::::'
                   :..'''``:::::::
                   '         `::::
                               `::.
                                `::
                                 :::.
                      ..:.:.::'`. ::'`.  . : : .
                    ..'      `:.: ::   :'       .:
                   .:        .:``:::  :       .: ::
                   .:    ..''     :::.'    :':    :
                    : .''         .:: : : '
                     :          .'`::
                                    ::
                                    ::
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+ - Mr Bili: Posting without a P.L. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>think of our work. Largely what we post here in SCM is throwaway wit. We

Exactly. I throw it away

>As I said: I got Poetic Licence, you don't.

What else do you got? Do you got a grasp of the English language?

Gabor
+ - Re: Penury Gyuri s Ms Handling of English (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>Well we know you are not a poet and you are not an engineer and you are not
>a literary critic given the level of inadequate analogy that you produce --
>dismal. Ford and Chrysler are prosaic; Mazeratti and Lamborghini are
>poetry. Ford and Chrysler are after the masses, the lowest common
>denominator, the middle class, the dime-a-dozeners -- so to be economically
>viable they cannot extend their reach beyond what the Bland Glands of
>America can grasp.

Now, Wally, no need to get frustrated again. The same analogy can be applied to
Maseratti and Lamborghini. The reason they are liked is because they appeal to 
eveyone - not just their peers.

Gabor
+ - Hungarian Lobby FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greetings from the Hungarian Lobby (HL) List ! 

     The Hungarian Lobby list has been created by Bela Liptak and the
members of the UMCP Hungarian American Association to serve as a forum to
promote Hungarian views and interests. The mailing list is a mixed
language Magyar (Hungarian) / English (Angol) list. Anyone, regardless of
race, ethnic origin, religion or political belief can post to the
Hungarian Lobby. Please, save this letter for future reference. 

     1996 will be the 1100th anniversary of Hungarian statehood, the 40th
anniversary of the Hungarian Revolution. 1996 is also an election year in
the United States, when the 1.6 million Hungarian-Americans could exercise
(for the first time ever) some political influence. 

     HL's goal is protect Hungary from defamation and to protect, not only
the oppressed Hungarian national communities of the Danubian region, but
all ethnic minorities, including Jews, Romas and others. 

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                         FAQ - Hungarian Lobby
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Contents

  1. What Is The Hungarian Lobby?
  2. How Does The Hungarian Lobby Work?
  3. How To Subscribe Or Unsubscribe?
  4. How To Post To The Hungarian Lobby?
  5. Sample of an Individualized Form-Letter
  6. Archives Of The Hungarian Lobby
  7. HunOR - Hungarian Online Resources
  8. Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ
  9. Useful Addresses
 10. Disclaimers



------------------------------

Subject: 1. What Is The Hungarian Lobby?

     The Hungarian Lobby (HL) is not a discussion group or a debating
society. Our goal is to influence our political leaders and the media
through the writing of letters and articles, which we send by E-mail,
fax-broadcasting and through regular mail. 

     All HL participants are asked to post ALL letters they send to their
representatives or the press, so that we all can benefit from the ideas
contained in them and can give support, if we agree with them. Similarly
we would like you to post the news of all law or human rights violations
that you learn about within the Carpathian Basin, or any news of of
incomplete or erroneous reporting on Hungary in the Western press.  Please
send E-mail letters or news items directly to:  .  (THE HL
LIST WILL ACCEPT CORRESPONDENCE ONLY FROM ITS MEMBERS!)


------------------------------

Subject: 2. How Does The Hungarian Lobby Work?

     If you want to take part in our fax-chainletter efforts, and IF you
have an AUTOMATIC fax machine, please fax a note to Dr. Bollyky at
203-967-4845. An automatic fax-machine is one which will automatically
receive a fax broadcast without the need for being switched on manually. 
Those who sign on are expected to sign and mail (if they agree with the
contents) the fax they receive to their representatives and/or local
papers and also to resend the fax-letter to one or more friends or
relatives. 

     The home page of the Hungarian Lobby is at: 

                  http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/  

     The Addressbook page at:

             http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/addressbook/

contains the E-Mail addresses and fax numbers of all members of the USA
Congress, Senate, Newspapers and others outside the USA.  Old letters and
articles posted on HL can also be obtained on the World Wide Web at the
home page address: 

               http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/

     The addresses of all European newspapers can be obtained from:

             http://www.dds.nl/~kidon/papers.html  

     According to the present concept, the HL has no leaders. It is the
association of people, who care about justice and human rights, who feel
that their voice will be multiplied and their work will be more effective,
if they act together. Our present operation (which, I am sure will change
with time and experience), is as follows: When a member (ANY MEMBER) of
the HL feels, that we should speak up in connection with some deed or
event, he or she will compose a letter addressing that issue and send it
to a political leader or to a newspaper AND IN ADDITION to the HL list. 
Members of HL, who agree with the received text, will read the letter and
if they agree with it, they too will mail it (or some version of it) to
their local papers and/or to their political representatives. In other
words, all members of HL can initiate an action or can participate in an
action initiated by others, if they agree. 

     We have already succeeded to reach several hundred letters within 24
hours of learning about a human right abuse or an unlawful act. Our goal
is to increase that number into the thousands and to expand our span of
attention to include such problem areas as environmental abuses and
freedom of the press. In the following points, we will list the specific
deeds that we ask of you, if you join the HL: 

     1)HL members should keep the E-mail (or Fax) addresses of their
President, Senators, Congressmen and local newspapers ready, so if the
occasion arises, they can send on a letter within minutes. 

     2) We ask all HL members to agree that within 24 hours of receiving a
form-letter, they will read it, and if they agree with its purpose,
content and style, they will send it (or some variety of it) on, to their
own addresses. 

     3) We ask all HL members to agree, that when they initiate a
chain-letter, they should carefully check the validity of its facts,
should weigh the importance of the topic and should use appropriate style.
When writing to a Senator, you should be formal and brief. Two paragraphs
are the best, but should never exceed one page. You should identify
yourself and outline your concern in the first paragraph. In the second
paragraph you should outline why that concern is important to the United
States.  You should always include your postal address in addition to your
title and signature. (Below, there is a typical chain-letter as an
example.)

     4) If you find the work of HL useful, please ask your friends and
relatives to join us. 


------------------------------

Subject: 3. How To Subscribe Or Unsubscribe

To subscribe to the Hungarian Lobby, send the following in the body (not
the subject line) of an email message to  : 

     subscribe hl

To subscribe to the digest version of the Hungarian Lobby, send the
following in the body (not in the subject line) of an email message to
 : 

     subscribe hl-digest

Subscribing to the hl-digest list will not automatically unsubscribe you
from the hl list. Make sure, you are subscribed to only one of the list's
distribution forms, simply, by unsubscribing from the other. 

To unsubscribe from Hungarian Lobby, send the following in the body (not
the subject line) of an email message to  : 

     unsubscribe hl
or
     unsubscribe hl-digest

This will unsubscribe the account from which you send the message. If you
are subscribed with some other address, you'll have to send a command of
the following form instead: 

     unsubscribe hl 
or
     unsubscribe hl-digest 

If you don't know what address you are subscribed with, you can send the
following command to  to see who else is on the list
(assuming that information isn't designated "private" by the owner of the
list): 

     who hl
or
     who hl-digest

To retrieve the information you are currently reading, mail the command
below to  : 

     info hl
or
     info hl-digest

If you want to search non-private lists at this server, you can do that by
mailing a command like: 

     which string

This will return a list of all entries on all lists that contain "string". 
To find out more about the automated server and the commands it
understands, send the following command to  : 

     help


------------------------------

Subject: 4. How To Post To The Hungarian Lobby

     To post an article/message/question to the whole list, send it to
. It will be distributed automatically to all subscribers.
Note:  is the posting address for both the HL and HL-Digest
lists. 

     The list is unmoderated; nobody screens the messages before they are
posted. Before you post to the list, be sure that your message is correct. 
Use lines shorter than 80 characters since many mailers truncate longer
lines. Remember that what you post will be received by many people
throughout the world. Try to educate and be educated, although, do not be
afraid to ask any questions regarding Hungary and Lobbying. In particular,
if you ask a question, you should send a summary of the responses to the
list, thus allowing others to learn along with you. 

     The most important part of your posting is the Subject field. The
subject line should not be longer than 40 characters. People screen
incoming e-mail by the subject line, so make it clear. 

     If you are posting a long file, please split it into chunks which are
smaller than 50 kBytes. Always identify the part number and total number
of parts in the Subject line . 

     As a courtesy to the other subscribers, it is a good idea to include
your name and e-mail address at the end of your message so that people may
contact you directly. The e-mail address in the message header can
sometimes be mangled en route to the other subscribers; including it
manually or in your signature file will ensure that others have your
proper e-mail address. (On the other hand, try to keep your signature down
to three or four lines; more than that wastes bandwidth.)

     If you are not sure that your post is successful, or if you have
problems or suggestions, contact us at  . If you do
not see your posted message within a day on the list, please let us know. 
Please, do not repost a message without contacting us first. 


------------------------------

Subject: 5. Sample of an Individualized Form-Letter

RE: Religious Discrimination In Romania

POTENTIAL ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-456-2461
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1245
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 202-225-4656

The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.58 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too am concerned about the oppression of the indigenous
Hungarian national community in Romania. I am particularly concerned about
the new language law which would destroy one of Europe's oldest, the
Hungarian school system in Transylvania. 

I am also concerned, that while the property of the Romanian Orthodox
Church, which was also confiscated by the Communists, has been returned,
the church property of the Hungarian national community, has not been
returned. It includes 1,041 schools, 28 boarding schools, 20 teachers
residences, 16 hospitals and orphanages, 126 priests' houses and 70
convents. As you can see from this one example, the root cause of tensions
is not the desire of the minorities to maintain their cultural identities,
but the state-sponsored discrimination and persecution which is used to
forcibly assimilate them. 

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT, SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) It is in our national
interest to be the moral and ethical leaders of the free world. Therefore,
I would like to learn your views on this matter and the steps you might
take to help alleviate the suffering of the Hungarian national community
in Romania. There is no more basic human right as one's right to protect
one's church, property and the right to speak one's mother tongue, enjoy
one's culture. In a country such as Romania, which strives to enter the
European Community, the civilized world should not allow these basic
rights to be denied. 

I know, that a letter from you to President Iliescu of Romania would help
to change this situation. I would be honored if you decided to consider
this recommendation of mine. I thank you in advance and assure you that I
will work very hard for your reelection. 

Respectfully yours,

YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE
 

------------------------------

Subject: 6. Archives of the Hungarian Lobby

     The searchable archive of the Hungarian Lobby is located at

                 http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/ 

                    Text only digest are at URL

                http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/ftp/archive/ 

                 Important documents can be found at

                 http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/ftp/docs/ 

    The latter two directories can be reached via Anonymous FTP at
               ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hl/archive/
               ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hl/docs/

     Articles sent to the Hungarian Lobby are posted daily in digest form
to the soc.culture.magyar Usenet group. You should be able to find our
digests at any Usenet archives that stores documents from
soc.culture.magyar. 


------------------------------

Subject: 7. HunOR - Hungarian Online Resources 

     HunOR is a collection of people and services which was formed to
provide information about Hungary and Hungarian Americans. It is
maintained by the UMCP Hungarian American Association
(http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/) Currently it consists of: 

*  Hahn - Hungarian American HyperNews, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hahn/)
*  HAL  - Hungarian American List, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/)
*  HIR  - Hungarian Information Resources, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/)
*  HL   - Hungarian Lobby, (http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/)
etc...


------------------------------

Subject: 8. Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ

Further information about other Hungarian Internet sources can be found at
the following sites : 

*  http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/
*  http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/
*  ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/soc.culture.magyar/
*  ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq


------------------------------

Subject: 9. Useful Addresses 

HUNGARIAN OFFICIALS AND ORGANIZATIONS:
Gyula Horn: 
Arpad Goncz: 
Peto Ivan:  
MTI:  
MVSZ:  
Szulofoldunk Radio: 

EUROPEAN OFFICIALS:
Carl Bildt EC negotiator for Bosnia: 
Max van der Steel, EC Commissioner for Minorities:
 Fax: 011-31-70-363-5910 

LOCAL HL CONTACTS/ADVISERS:

EUROPE:





USA:




CANADA:



ASIA:


N E W S P A P E R S:

EUROPEAN:
All Papers:  http://www.dds.nl/~kidon/papers.html
Reuters in Romania: fax: 011-401-615-8448
The Guardian: 
The Economist: 
The Independent: 
Budapest Week: 

CANADIAN TV:
CTV: 

AMERICAN NEWSPAPER NAMES-States (Fax numbers) E-mail
ARIZONA
The Arizonia Daily Star-AZ, E-mail: 
CALIFORNIA
The Fresno Bee-CA (209-441-6050)
The Press-Enterprise-CA (909-782-7630)
The Press Democrat-CA, E-mail: 
The Sacramento Bee-CA, E-Mail: (916-321-1109), E-Mail: 
The San Diego-CA (619-293-2338)
San Jose Mercury News-CA, E-Mail: 
San Francisco Cronicle-CA (415-512-81960)
San Francisco Examiner-CA (415-777-8708), E-Mail: 
The Los Angeles Times-CA (213-237-7676)
The Orange County Register-CA (714-543-3904)
Contra Costa Times-CA (510-977-8410)
Daily News-CA (818-713-3029)
COLORADO
Gazette Telegraph-CO (719-636-0333), E-Mail: 
The Denver Post-CO, E-Mail:
Rocky Mountain News-CO (303-892-5081)
CONNECTICUT
The Hartford Courant-CT (203-520-3176), E-Mail: 
New Haven Register-CT (203-865-7894)
WASHINGTON DC
The Washington Post-DC (202-334-7126), E-Mail: 
                                               
The Washngton Times-DC (202-832-2206)
DELAWARE
The News Journal-DE (302-324-5518)
FLORIDA
Daytona Beach News Journal-FL (904-258-8470), E-Mail: 
Sun Sentinel-FL (305-356-4333), E-Mail: 
News-Press-FL (813-332-7581)
Tampa Tribune-FL, E-Mail: 
The Florida Times Union-FL (904-359-4400)
The Ledger-FL (813-687-7916)
Sarasota Herald Tribune-FL, E-Mail: 
The Orlando Sentinel-FL (407-420-5042)
St. Petersburg Times-FL (813-893-8671)
The Palm Beach Post-FL (407-820-4136)
GEORGIA
Augusta Chronicle-GA (706-722-7403), E-Mail: 
ILLINOIS
Daily Herald-IL (708-818-9187)
Chicago Sun Times-IL (312-321-2920)
INDANA
The Evansville Courier-IN (812-464-7484)
The Journal Gazette-IN (219-461-8648), E-Mail: 
The Indianapolis Star-IN (317-633-1174)
KENTUCKY
Lexington Herald-Leader-KY (606-231-3454)
The Courier-Journal-KY (502-582-4075), E-Mail: 
LOUISIANA
The Advocate-LA, E-Mail: 
The Times-Picayune-LA (504-826-3636)
The Times-LA (318-459-3392), E-Mail: 
MASSACHUSSETTS
Christian Science Monitor-MA, E-Mail: 
The Boston Globe-MA (617-929-3318), E-Mail: 
Boston Herald-MA, E-Mail: 
The Patriot Ledger-MA (617-786-7298), E-Mail: 
Telegram & Gazette-MA (508-793-9313)
MARYLAND
The Sun-MD (410-332-6670)
MAINE
Portland Press Herald-ME (207-780-9443)
MICHIGAN
The Flint Journal-MI (810-767-9480), E-Mail: 
The Grand Rapids Press-MI (616-459-1502), E-Mail: 
MINNESOTA
Star Tribune-MN (612-673-4835), E-Mail: 
St. Paul Pioneer Press-MN (612-222-5527)
MISSISSIPI
The Clarion Ledger-MS (601-961-7159)
NEBRASKA
Omaha World Herald-NE, E-Mail: 
NORTH CAROLINA
News & Observer-NC (919-829-4872), E-Mail: 
Winston-Salem Journal-NC (910-727-7424)
NEW HAMPSHIRE
The Union Leader-NH (603-668-0040)
NEW JERSEY
The Record-NJ (201-646-4403), E-Mail: 
Ashbury Park Press-NJ (908-922-6326)
The Star-Ledger-NJ (201-565-0422)
The Press of Atlantic City-NJ (609-272-7059), E-Mail: 
NEW MEXICO
Albaquerque Journal-NM (505-823-3499), E-Mail: 
NEVADA
Los Vegas Review Journal-NV (702-383-4665)
Las Vegas Sun-NV (702-383-7264)
NEW YORK
Times-Union-NY (518-489-5877)
Times Herald-Record-NY (914-343-6414)
The New York Daily News-NY (212-661-2597)
The New York Times-NY (212-556-3622), E-Mail:
                                             
New York Review of Books-NY, E-Mail: 
The Wall Street Journal-NY (212-416-2658)
Democrat and Chronicle-NY (716-232-3027)
OHIO
Akron Beacon Journal-OH (216-376-9235) 
Dayton Daily News-OH (513-225-2088), E-Mail: 
The Plain Dealer-OH, E-Mail:  
The Blade-OH (419-245-6471)
The Columbus Digest-OH, E-Mail: 
OREGON
The Oregonian-OR (503-227-5306)
PENNSYLVANIA
The Philadelphia Inquirer-PA (215-854-2372)
RHODE ISLAND
The Providence Journal-RI (401-277-7461)
SOUTH CAROLINA
The Greenville-SC (803-298-4805)
TENNESSEE
The Commercial Appeal-TN (901-529-5833)
Knoxville News Sentinel-TN, E-Mail: 
The Tennessean-TN (615-259-8875)
TEXAS
Austin American-Statesman-TX (512-445-3557)
Fort Worth Star-Telegram-TX (817-390-7831)
The Houston Chronicle-TX (713-220-6677)
San Antonio Express-News-TX (512-225-2553)
UTAH
The Salt Lake Tribune-UT (801-237-2022)
VIRGINIA
Daily Press-VA (804-247-3747), E-Mail: 
The Virginia Pilot-VA (804-446-2983), E-Mail: 
Richmond Times-Dispatch-VA (804-775-8019)
WASHINGTON
Seattle Post-Intelligencer-WA (206-448-8165)
The Spokesman Review-WA (509-459-5234)
The News-Tribune-WA (206-552-7092)
WISCONSIN
The Milwaukee Journal-WI (414-224-2469)
WEST VIRGINIA
The Charleston Gazette-WV (304-348-5133)


------------------------------

Subject: 10. Disclaimers

     The list is provided, as is, to people interested in lobbying for
Hungarian causes. It is provided with the intention of helping to keep
Hungarians and their friends informed and in closer contact with each
other. By posting to this list you agree that the content represents your
personal opinion. In no event will the Hungarian Lobby, the University of
Maryland (UMD), its employees and affiliates, or the list administrators
be liable for the opinions or materials posted. Neither the Hungarian
Lobby nor UMD reviews the materials prior their submittion to this list
and cannot stop their distribution. The messages distributed by the
Hungarian Lobby come without any warranty. If you decide to use them, you
do so at your own risk. 


------------------------------

With best personal regards: 
Bela Liptak and members of the UMCP Hungarian American Association

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      End of Hungarian Lobby FAQ
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - For Mark Cristian (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear

  [ ] sir      [ ] clueless one  [ ] twit          [ ] great man on campus
  [ ] madam    [ ] dweeb         [ ] twerp         [ ] comrade
  [ ] Elvis    [ ] moon beam     [ ] boor          [x] Obergruppenfuehrer
  [ ] citoyen  [ ] Geek          [ ] grad student  [ ] cur

 You are being gently flamed because.

  [ ] you continued a boring useless stupid thread
  [ ] you repeatedly posted to the same thread that you just posted to
  [ ] you repeatedly initiated incoherent, flaky, and mindless threads
  [ ] you posted a piece riddled with profanities
  [ ] you advocated Net censorship
  [ ] you SCREAMED! (used all caps)
  [ ] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group
  [ ] you posted the inanely stupid 'Make Money Fast' article
  [ ] you threatened others with physical harm
  [ ] you made a bigoted statement(s)
  [x] you assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority
  [ ] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve
  [ ] you repeatedly shown lack of humor
  [ ] you are apparently under compulsion to post to every threat
  [ ] you are posting an anonymous attack

  >>> Thank you for the time you have taken to read this.  Live n' Learn.<<<

------------------------------




--
   /^\___/^\     
   <(0) (0)>    | Arturo Manuel Garcia - )
   (<( V )>)    | Data Communications International, Phoenix AZ
   <(<^^^>)>    | >>>>>   Communicating with the World   <<<<<
   (<(^^^)>)    | "I never, ever forget a face, but in your case 
     ww ww      | I'll gladly make an exception" - Groucho Marx
+ - For the Frustrated Prostate, alias Ms Wally Bali Keeler (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear

  [ ] sir      [x] clueless one  [x] twit          [x] great man on campus
  [x] madam    [x] dweeb         [x] twerp         [x] comrade
  [x] Elvis    [x] moon beam     [x] boor          [ ] Obergruppenfuehrer
  [x] citoyen  [ ] Geek          [x] grad student  [x] cur

 You are being gently flamed because.

  [x] you continued a boring useless stupid thread
  [ ] you repeatedly posted to the same thread that you just posted to
  [x] you repeatedly initiated incoherent, flaky, and mindless threads
  [x] you posted a piece riddled with profanities
  [ ] you advocated Net censorship
  [ ] you SCREAMED! (used all caps)
  [x] you posted some sort of crap that doesn't belong in this group
  [ ] you posted the inanely stupid 'Make Money Fast' article
  [ ] you threatened others with physical harm
  [x] you made a bigoted statement(s)
  [x] you repeatedly assumed unwarranted moral or intellectual superiority
  [x] you are under the misapprehension that this group is your preserve
  [x] you repeatedly shown lack of humor
  [ ] you are apparently under compulsion to post to every threat
  [ ] you are posting an anonymous attack

  >>> Thank you for the time you have taken to read this.  Live n' Learn.<<<

------------------------------




--
   /^\___/^\
   <(0) (0)>    | Arturo Manuel Garcia - )
   (<( V )>)    | Data Communications International, Phoenix AZ
   <(<^^^>)>    | >>>>>   Communicating with the World   <<<<<
   (<(^^^)>)    | "I never, ever forget a face, but in your case
     ww ww      | I'll gladly make an exception" - Groucho Marx
+ - Re: Mr. Keeler & his poetry! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Hermes1  > wrote:
>> Nah, Wally's ego is just too big. He's a "poet", you see. But he's also a
>> sexist pig. A snoid. He thinks because he uses vulgar words he's cool, big
>> man  on campus. I do hope the lobotomy will help him get his well deserved
>> personality exchange.
>> Gaborka
>
>Poor little Gaborka, aren't we a tad PC (that is not Piece of Crap
>just yet, but only Politicaly Corrrect) ?

Nah.

>As far as "sexist", I still have some remote  hope that you are sexist
>too, unles the dikes on campus managed to brain wash you to the extent of
>a de facto castration. No wonder you sound so squeeky, ya whimp !

OK. I'll use Wally's approach to woman: You dried up dumb cunt, gimme some
food! Then fuck off!

>Please stop being such a whimpy, castrato_PC_snoid, you bring shame to the
>whole of Eastern Europe !

So? AFAIK, Hungary is in Central Europe...why should I care about Eastern
Europe?

Gabor

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