Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: SCM: Re: SCM: Re: Soros (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: An answer ... (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: An answer ... (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Racism isn t black and white;) (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Meaning of "Slav" and "Rus" (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: An answer for Wally Keeler, but not only... So, ple (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Radio Free Europe (mind)  93 sor     (cikkei)
9 In praise of younger (Hungarian) women (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Gay rights in Romania - again "printre codasii Euro (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: IRC magyarul? (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind)  101 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Interference? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
15 Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (Version: 1.10, Last (mind)  1453 sor     (cikkei)
16 HELP! (mind)  511 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: An answer ... (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Gay rights in Romania - again "printre codasii Euro (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Radio Free Europe (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: HELP! (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Meaning of "Slav" and "Rus" (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: SCM: Re: SCM: Re: Soros (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Ray, 
  You mentioned applying to teach English under the Soros Foundation, and I
agree that its a really good idea.  When I went to Hungary as an English
teacher, I met a woman who was going to Romania as a Soros teacher (you'd
have to make sure you don't get placed in Romania if you don't want to-it
would be a Hungarian area though).  The benefits of the job seemed to be
greater than if one just went on his or her own to teach in Hungary:  better
salary, insurance, language training, etc.  I don't know details, but I do
know they require at least a Master's degree in ESL, TESOL, so you would
probably be a good candidate.  In any case, it's worth asking into.  If you'd
like info on other programs to teach in Hungary, don't hesitate to contact
--Shannon Morris
+ - Re: An answer ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hermes  > wrote:
>Although I am not religious, I would not hesitate to call Mr. Funar and
>Mr. Tokes the very tools of a modern day Devil bend on spreading mischief.

What a transparent ploy from Hermes to appear even handed by equating
Tokes with Funar!  Who the hell he thinks he is kiddin'?

+ - Re: An answer ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hermes  > wrote:
>Well Joe, pray tell how is Mr. Tokes better than Mr. Funar ? How is one
>less awfull than the other. They are the Scilla and the Caribda of 
>nationalist politics in Transylvania. They are both just as arrogant,  
>they are both playing out their spite and frustrations, and think of 
>personal  political gain more than the interest of the community they
>should serve by virtue of their office.

Fortunately in the West these two men are seen quite differently because
we have not forgotten those TV pictures of late '89, early '90 with
Tokes celebrated as a hero, even by Romanians themselves.  Funar on the
other hand was shown never more than the scum he is.

So your equating those two guys tells more about you than about Tokes or

+ - Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>  (Igor GAZDIK) wrote:
> > besides, the areas west of the danube were populated by slovak tribes.   bi
> >      gorazd, for instance, lived in a place whose name nowadays is
> >      sekesfehervar.   by the way, pozony is not a "hungarian" name
> >      for bratislava.   it is one of many names the city has had in
> >      the course of millenia.   the "hungarian" version is just 
> >      a misspelling of the latin name posoniensum.
> I am sure Bishop Gorazd enjoyed living in the area now known as the 
> Hungarian city of Szekesfehervar, because it is a beautiful place.  
> Before him, many other men and women lived there, going back to thousands 
> of years.
> Pozsony IS the Hungarian name for that city simply because that is what 
> Hungarians choose to call it.  The fact that it has its origins in latin 
> should not surprising to anyone as a great many cities were founded by 
> the Romans.  The very English name for the English call their capital, 
> London, is from the latin Londonium.

What are these countries?
1. Ven{j{
2. It{valta
3. Alankomaat
4. Ruotsi
5. Suomi
6. Yhdysvallat

Naturally they are:
1. Russia
2. Austria
3. Netherlands
4. Sweden
5. Finland
6. USA         ,in Finnish.

I didn't add in this list Saksa (Germany), Tanska (Danmark), etc..
because they are obvious.

Jorma Kyppo

+ - Re: Racism isn t black and white;) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Igor GAZDIK ) wrote:
> "In article >,  says...
> " wrote:
> ">If you are a Slovak and say to a Hungarian, that he is gypsy and
> ">then this Hungarian gets angry and denies that he's no gypsy,
> ">then I just wonder who is racist, you, the Hungarian, nobody
> ">or both?
>       jorma, next time you come to slovakia (and i hope it will
>       be soon), pls get in touch with some gypsies.   they can be
>       quite nice (just like most people).   you will notice that
>       at least 8 out of 10 are called s~an~o lakatos~ (i am using
>       the ~ to indicate the slovak "makcen~"~).   that surely is
>       not a slovak name.   

It is funny, but also in Finland many gypsies use to have Swedish name (Lindmar
k, etc..).
In Finnish case I suppose this is because of 2 reasons:
1. Gypsies came to Finland originally via Sweden.
2. In last century also many Finns had Swedisf familiar names given for us duri
   the Swedish rule. In the beginning of this century a lot of Finns started
   to translate their names in Finnish. I think that gypsies thought that it
   was not their business.

I've to clarify some differences between Slovak/Hungarian gypsies and Finnish

1. There are quite few gypsies in nordic countries (relatively)
2. Usually they don't speak very well anymore their own language. It is forgott
   In last years there has been some efforts to learn it again.
3. In Finland gypsy women usually have very beautiful and colourful
   dresses. Their clothes separate them from the other population.
4. In Slovakia I've found out that there are two kind of gypsies.
   Very dark ones, and other kind who are not so dark. This very
   dark type don't exist in Finland.

Jorma Kyppo

+ - Re: Meaning of "Slav" and "Rus" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Vashek Skutil ) wrote:
> In article >,
>     (Vladimir Smirnov) wrote:
>  (D.D. Chukurov) wrote:
> >>   There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't
> >
> >   There are actually two kinds of people: those who think that there are
> >two kinds of people, and all others.
> Actually, there are three kinds. People who can count, people who can not, an
> people who think that there is two kind of people.

Doesn't that make only two kinds, one, three, two...?

Jorma Kyppo

+ - Re: An answer for Wally Keeler, but not only... So, ple (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Come my friend we are waiting for stupids like you. I will be there too.
As for the Hungarian culture, yes you had some but what a pity!- you certainly
did not understand anything of it. Culture should not and never did foster hate
one notable exception : Hungary-recently declared the most hated people in Euro
Cit despre taranii de noi: "..imi apar saracia si nevoile si neamul" asa ca By 
means come friend we will be ready!
+ - Re: Radio Free Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Jerry J. Fridrich) wrote:
 (Chris Bussler) wrote:
>>I am writing a magazine article about the radio station Radio Free
>>Europe, which were based in Munich, Germany, and now are located in
>>Prague, Czech Republic. Therefore, I would like to talk to (i. e.
>>exchange some mails with) somebody who listened to RFE during the Cold
>>War or still listens to it today. I would be interested in how it
>>influenced you personally and the political environment and society as
>>a whole in Eastern European states.
>>I would be very thankful if somebody could tell me about his

>I don't know what the situation was in Eastern Europeans states.
>But I could share with you what it was like in Czechoslovakia, if
>you are interested. When I was a little boy we lived in Moravia,
>a land in the middle of the country that found itself, after the
>Communist coup d'etat, too fast in the grips of rather underdeveloped
>and technologically backward East Europe, a sharp contrast  from
>enjoying one of the highest standards of life in the world (the 7th
>before WWII - but perhaps even higher after the end ot the war when
>the economy was booming).
>All of a sudden there was no free press. People could not read the
>newspapers with the exception of the last pages that dealt with
>sports. On any other page there was just pure propaganda and lies
>nausiating your stomac. For people used to finding information either
>in the papers or by listning to the radio, there was no recource - that
>is domestic.
>The sudden void was quickly filled by both Radio Free Europe and
>Voice of America stations (before, during the Nazi occupation. it
>was the London Calling radio station). I remember my parents
>trying to get the daily news from both radio stations. This proved
>very difficult at times since both stations were later heavily jammed.
>But my parents, and as far as I know just anybody, listen to their
>broadcast every day. And the news delivered by both stations
>spread with a lighning-like speed.
>So thanks to both the RFE and VOC,  the country remained
>informed al the time!

I would just add that my family, in Hungary, did pretty much the same, 
with one addition:  We also religiously listened to both the Hungarian 
and English editions of the BBC even during the Communist Regime, 
something my grand-parents and Great-grandparents got used to during 
World War II.  We had an old Phillips radio, and I was the proud 
operator, at the age of 9 or 10, who sat constantly at the radio, 
fiddling with the dials to outsmart the jamming signals.  My familiy's 
biggest fear was that I would brag in school about my skill at bringing 
"Szabad Europa" or "Amerika Hangja" or "a Be' Be' Ce'", for it could have 
sent my parents to jail for that.  Not because listening to those 
stations were, by themselves, such a hideous crime (although it WAS a 
crime), but that it would be used as an excuse to evict a family from its 
home by sending at least one member to jail and turning the apartment or 
house over to a trusted communist "elvtars" (comerade).

By the way, not all programming on VOA or RFE was just news and 
commentary.  My all time favorite was a VOA program called Music USA, 
hosted by a disk jockey named Willis Connover.  A New York Times article 
about him sometimes in the fifties or sixties said that he was THE most 
popular disk jockey in the world, since he far exceeded  people like 
Cousin Brucie, etc, who only played to domestic US adiences.  Willis 
played to over a BILLION listeners worldwide.  His program was mostly 
jazz and early rock and roll (Buddy Holly and Elvis Presley, for 
example) pluis very carefully pronounced, slow English commentary, so 
that everyone around the world could follow.  

After my father and I escaped from Hungary after the 56 revolution, I 
recall meeeting him in Washington on my first trip there, when my host 
family, hearing me rave about Willis Connover, arranged for me to meet 
him in his studio, during a program taping.  Imagine my thrill (I was 
16 years old) when he greeted me on the air, introduced me (to a billion 
people!!!) and asked me to say the magic words:  "Good Evening from 
Washington,  This is Music USA!"  I've had a few thrills since then, 
living here for the last 38 years, but believe me, THAT was a magic 

I guess the one good result of my early training in radio listening is 
that I still shudder if I hear a radio playing too loud.  I was well 
trained, I suppose....  Too well trainied.  I am glad my sons know 
nothing of it.   Now if they could only learn to like GOOD music instead 
of...   Oh, well...

Good luck with your research....

Charlie Vamossy
from New York
+ - In praise of younger (Hungarian) women (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I just caught the tail end of "Inside Edition" last night, which
introduced the latest "super model" who was a Hungarian girl.
Unfortunately I missed her name though.  Personally, I couldn't figure
out why she was selected because I can see better looking girls any day
on the street.  (And she sure could not even come close to the host of
Inside Edition, Deborah Norville.)

BTW, while at the subject, whatever happened to gymnast Henrietta Onodi,
one of the gold medalists from the last Olympics?  Is she still
competing and possibly entering next year's games in Atlanta?
She was such a crowd pleaser last time!

Joe Pannon
(male chauvinist)
+ - Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just a simple question as I don't know:
How many Slovaks (mean Slovak speaking population) live today
in Hungary and how many Slovak schools there exist in Hungary?

Jorma Kyppo

+ - Re: Gay rights in Romania - again "printre codasii Euro (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

No offence guys, but with all the political unjusticeness and sh_t that's
going on in that country, and I know cause I grew up there, you're talking
about, discussing and trying to maybe help the situation for a few thousands
of homosexuals(szerencsetlenek) when there are 3.5 million ethnic
minorities, who have bigger problems and who are in deeper sh_t.
  What I suggest to you, is to first try to make Rumania into a real
democratic country, where people can feel free and good, and then start
thinking about changing the laws and suit everybodies needs.  Start at the
base ( the main problem) and then work yourself up to the top.  
But I wish you a whole lot of luck.
Marhas Mokus mondat:
	Csak a jo Istenert, huzzad mar!!!  Mert, maskullonben nem lesz mirre
	 Na! jo van, gyerkocok...Isten, Isten!!!
+ - Re: IRC magyarul? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Raymond Dal Meredith) wrote:
>Sorry to mislead y'all w/ the Hungarian subject line - I don't speak
>but a few words of the (fascinating) language.
>Anyway, I _do_ want to learn some Hungarian, but a shortage of time and
>contacts w/ native speakers here at the U of Illinois has prompted me
>to look for a schedule-friendly solution to tutorial.  My sister-in-law,
>a Pole, is on IRC's "polska" and "Polonia" channels a lot, and I was 
>wondering if there was something similar for Hungarians and their
>language.  If you are an avid Hungarian-language IRC participant, please
>let me know when and where you most often log on.  BTW, would a beginner
>even be welcome amongst the Hungarians on the channel?
>Well, that's all I wanted to know.  Thanks in advance for your time
>and attention.
>Ray Meredith


Ray -- join IRC channel #magyar, and you will find the Hungarians from 
both Hungaru and from around the world.  Most speak English when they 
have to.  Yes, occasionaly there are non-Hungarian speakers, and yes, 
they are welcome on the channel.   Last night a Peruvian girl named 
Vanessa, currently living in Montreal was the star attraction of both the 
Hungarian and Romanian channels --  hmmmm....   maybe there is a lesson 
in that.

Good luck

Charlie Vamossy 
from New York
+ - Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lennart Regebro ) wrote:
: In article >,  
: Around 0.5 percent then. We wouldn't want 10% finnish speaking schools 
: then, right? :)

: That would however mean that there are a couple of thousand kids going to 
: school, so unless they are spread out over a huge area (I don't think so) 
: they should be able to have finnish speaking schools.

: Anybody knows if there are any Finnish speaking schools?

There are ten (10) Finnish speaking schools in Sweden. So called
free schools (friskolor) established *by the Finns of Sweden 
themselves.* There are c. 700 pupils in those schools.

The Swedish speaking kids enjoy school education sponsored by the
state and municipalities where the language is their own mother 
tongue unlike the Finnish speaking kids of Sweden who have not 
such opportunities.

The former non-socialist government made possible to establish
so called free shools and they recieve 75 % state funding via 
the municipality. Until the non-socialist government of Carl 
Bildt even that was forbidden in Sweden.

The present socialist administration of Sweden is planning to
re-arrange the status of the free-schools so that the municipality
can decide whether it supports them or not. It means a threath
for the free schools. The free schools are against the socialist
idea of the uniformed Swedish speaking Swedes. 

The effort made in two-three years by the Finns of Sweden may
be ruined because of the attitude of the present socialist
regime of Sweden. Ingvar Carlsson and his ilk.

The effort to establish such shools has been very demanding
for the Finns of Sweden when knowing that they are predominantly
working class people of Sweden,with no solid financial bakground.

First the non-socialist government,the previous one, made
it possible to establish those schools!  

In the municipal school system the Finnish speaking kids
have not had any own schools but they have had an opportunity
to study in Finnish first six (6) school years.
Even that depends on the will of the municipality and there
is no obligation to arrange for the kids of the Finnish
speaking minority any education in Finnish.

It is about 10 % of the Finnish speaking kids who have had
this opportunity during the first six school years.

(How about Hungarian kids in Slovakia?)

After that according to the present Swedish laws they have
to attend on Swedish speaking education. With the exeption
of the aforementioned free schools if the parents establish
them themselves!

Normally the Swedish municipalities resist the idea that
the Finnish speaking community had any shool education
services in Finnish at all allthought Finnish communities
have centuries old traditions in Sweden. It is a part
of the national doctrine of Sweden, "one language-one
nation policy".

Swedish Consitution does not admit the existence of 
the Saami and Finnish minorities. Signing the European Charter
for Regional or Minority Languages Sweden had to rewrite its 
Constitution and change it to meet international standards.

That seems to be too difficult for Sweden (and Turkey) at least
by far.

It is considered tolerance when the Swedes repealed the ban to
speak Finnish within the school area the year 1958. Since then
it has not been officially forbidden to speak within the school
area Finnish but it is still a long way to a normal school
education in Finnish if it is considered not desirable by
the state of Sweden and there is not given any solid funding
for them. Not to mention permanent teacher training which 
is non-existent or higher education- also non-existent.

It is quite obvious that the Swedish and Finnish languages
have different content for the word "tolerance".

Sweden is a rich country, a long term member of the CE,
the UN, Unesco and other international organizations.
The international human right missions are not interested
in such member states who pay for them big sums and
support their activities. Sweden is an exellent example
of such a state. 

# In 1958,The Swedish School Administration repealed directives banning #
# the speaking of Finnish language in Sweden's schools.    However,some #
# municipalities maintained restrictions on Finnish language until 1968 #
#.................aga parem hilja kui mitte kunagi..................... #
+ - Re: Interference? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"In article >,  
">Joe asks:
">>> The domestic nationalities and ethnic organizations do not even know
">>>who works in these institutions. And in reverse: perhaps not even 
">>>collectives are familiar with the demands of (Hungary's) 
">>So how do you know they have the demand for it in the first place?
">The citation was cited from an article published by the Slovak minority
">in Hungary on 22.11. 1995 in the newspaper Ludove noviny, and was 
">"In the interest of the real politics for the nationalities".
">All disclaimers apply. Not speaking for Ford.
      do you know if mr van der brock will be looking into this problem
      during his current trip to budapest?   he is there allegedly to
      study the problem of the hungarian minority in slovakia, roumania
      and serbia.
+ - Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (Version: 1.10, Last (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1995/11/22
Version: 1.10
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle
2.3  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!



 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.


Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.


Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).


Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further


Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).


Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.


Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>.  It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS') and they
are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;.

HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar
and hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.


Subject: 1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.  Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software.  For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.


Subject: 1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

 <mailto:> is a group providing rapid communication
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian
issues (it has been created to serve the community mainly at the
University of Maryland and in its vicinity). Subscribe by
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY . (Notice that this is distinct
from the older LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus
- 'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)




Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.


Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.


Subject: 2.3  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).



 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.


Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a Yahoo-like hierarchical
database of all Hungarian online content of the World. Currently it
has links in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>;. The Hungary-Online archive is
available from <http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/>;.

 There are some nice pictures from Hungary at 


Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical


Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.



 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs


 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.


Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             



 This information is also available on

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>


Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).


Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest

Members of the Szeged University Association

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs

University of Veszprem

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet


Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS


Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be


Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents


Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see, containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.


Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters: No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'. The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see " denotes umlaut! The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.) Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.


Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.


 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity. PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense. ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>. Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.


Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.] [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es. HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk


   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:


where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal. Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.


Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see


Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal ) MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically. Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.


Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4). ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files. etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform. hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>. drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source code for conversion between RTF (Rich
Text Format), character sets ISO 8859/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin 2)
and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically. The outbound format can't be RTF. Supported platforms:
VMS, MS-DOS, & possibly UNIX. hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated. MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see,
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided. ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above. hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.


Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP



(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.


Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
+ - HELP! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Citizens:

     I am a victim of mind control.  I have been mind
controlled for my entire life of forty-seven (47) years.  I
will try to briefly summarize what I remember and why I am
writing this letter.

     I have been mind controlled with the typical methods of
behavior modification, hypnosis, drugs, electric shock,
torture, and lies.  I believe that most people who
understand the methods of the secret societies would call me
a slave.  I can recall the perpetrators using the above
methods on me when I was younger than three years old.  As
many know, the methods cause amnesia for the conditioning
and psychological dissociation of the reality that the
person is a slave.

     Over the years the above methods were frequently used
on me, at times daily.  Sometimes I would realize my
circumstance because some good people would awaken me and
explain what was being done to me.  When I would begin to
realize what was being done to me, the perpetrators would
find me and intensify their efforts.  They often used
torture, ether, memory blocking drugs, and electric shock to
my head to erase my memories.  This would cause me to forget
what the good citizens told me.

     Apparently, the above very strong methods of mind
control were not enough for the perpetrators.  I now
remember that when I was about twelve (12) years old in
1959, the evil people inserted a temporary radio receiver in
my ear.  I was told that I had a hearing problem and I had
to a wear hearing aid.  Apparently, some people around me
objected, and they stopped that tactic for a short time.
When I was about fifteen (15) years old in 1962, they had
miniaturized radio receivers sufficiently that they could
insert one in my ear canal without me realizing what they
had done.  Then they would use very low volume subliminal
messages to control me.  They would give me post-hypnotic
suggestions that I had ear infections and I must not clean
inside my ear canals or I would suffer permanent hearing
loss.  Occasionally, I would clean inside my ear canals and
find a metal device, that would be explained away by those
around me.  The realizations of devices in my ears were then
always erased with torture, drugs, and electricity.

     The mind control efforts were very intense.  I was
oblivious to many events around me, and certainly to the
reality I was being completely controlled.  I had thousands
of days and experiences simply erased from my memory by
their techniques.  Occasionally, with some people's help I
would briefly break free from their control.  This would
enrage them.  When I was about twenty (20) years old in
1967, they surgically implanted a miniature radio receiver
and transmitter behind my right ear canal and next to my ear
drum.  I was told I had hurt my ear playing football.  Over
the next twenty (20) years the receiver-transmitter was
replaced a couple of times and another one was implanted
behind the other ear.  I have several very fine scars above
and behind both ears.  Apparently, the perpetrators not only
would broadcast subliminal commands to me, but had the
ability to listen to my conversations, and to electronically
track and locate me.

     For some reason, in addition to the surgically
implanted radio receiver-transmitters, at times additional
miniature receivers were also inserted into my ear canals.
I can recall having one found in my ear by a California
State University, Northridge, health center medical doctor
in 1971.  I also found another one in my ear in about 1988.
Of course, they would immediately erase my memory of what I
had found.  I assume there have been other times that I have
not yet recalled.  Why would there be miniature receivers in
my ear canals in addition to the surgically implanted ones
behind my ear canals?  I can only guess.  Perhaps different
organizations were trying to control me.  Maybe people were
monitoring the frequency of the implants, so the
perpetrators would send extra sensitive commands with the
new devices.  I really don't know.  I do know that any
realization of what they had done to me was quickly erased
from my memory.  I lived for about forty-two (42) years not
realizing that I am a victim and they have turned me into a
human robot.

     There have many other devices.  I can recall having an
electrode inserted into my frontal brain through my nostril
when I was about thirty-three (33) years old in 1980.  I
experienced intense pain, confusion, and disequilibrium.  I
was told I had a sinus infection.  I explored the source of
my pain and found a small bulb stuck to the roof of my nasal
cavity.  The doctors I contacted said it was an infection
and not to touch it.  I persisted and removed it myself with
tweezers.  It looked like a two-pronged electrode, with two
sharp wires stuck up into my brain with the bulb hanging
down.  I took it to the Federal Bureau of Investigation
(F.B.I.).  They told me it was a transistor that had
probably fallen out of an automobile.  Then my memory of the
event was erased for several years until recently.  There
are several other such incidents for which I have only very
vague memories.

     When I lived in Westlake Village, California, and I was
forty-two (42) years old in 1989, I began to realized that
something was very wrong.  I had massive memory loss and
some memories I could not explain.  I gradually began to
realize I was the victim of mind control.  I began to recall
thousands of conditioning sessions and abuses.  I had not
yet realized I was also the victim of surgical
implantations.  When I sought help from "friends," family,
and medical professionals, they all said I must be psychotic
that none of it had happened.  They said there are no secret
organizations and there is no such thing as mind control,
that it is all a delusion.  I quickly learned that no one
would talk about the abuses.  I was threatened that if I
talked about it I would be committed to a mental institution
for a very long time, or murdered.  Of course, the threats
are always indirect so they can be denied.  My efforts at
securing assistance from the F.B.I., police, lawyers, and
medical professionals was responded to with a complete
denial that such things happen.

     In 1989 I often observed near my residence several
company trucks with the acronym "MWS" on their license
plates.  I investigated and went to a MWS company, a
precious metals distributor, and asked a man in the shipping
area if he knew anything about the vehicles.  He said they
were probably driven by a Mr. Richter.  He said that he was
agent Tom Smith, and the people at MWS worked for "William
Sessions," that I would have to talk to him.  He gave me a
phone number and I called it and there was no answer.  I do
not know if the man was telling me the truth, or if it is
the same "William Sessions," who was the director of the

     In 1989 I went to the F.B.I. office in Los Angeles
twice.  The second time a F.B.I. agent in the office, Mr.
Au, said he was in charge of the organized crime
surveillance unit for southern California.  He said he knew
nothing about my situation or about any undercover operation
in Westlake Village, and he denied the F.B.I.'s connection
to the man at MWS.  I began telling him about some of the
mind control and electronic abuses against me that I was
aware of then.  At that time I did not know I had surgical
implants.  I told him about a house near my residence that
had increased its electrical capabilities with some
underground construction.  I believe they made the
construction additions to handle laser beams they had
emitted in the neighborhood, including several directed at
my house in about 1984.  I told him I thought there was even
an article in the newspaper about a "hobbyist" that was
using lasers about one block from where I lived.  He
informed me that was classified information, and that he
could file charges against me for revealing classified
information.  I ask him how I could reveal anything
classified if apparently no one from the government had
contacted me.  He said that was correct, the Central
Intelligence Agency (C.I.A.), National Security Agency
(N.S.A.), or another agency of the United States Government
would have had me sign an official contract if they had any
contact with me.  Then he said I could not be in possession
of classified information.

     I told him I was a licensed counselor and
psychotherapist.  I informed him that I had an extremely
high percentage of patients from the high technology defense
industry, and I have records of their employment (Rockwell
International, Lockheed Corporation, Rand Corporation,
Litton Data Command, Motorola, Rocketdyne, Honeywell
Computers, Rockwell Science Center, Lockheed CADAM,
Infomatics Corporation, Grumman Corporation, Whittaker
Corporation, Hughes Aircraft, Teradyne Corporation, U.S.
Navy, U.S. Air Force, U.S. Army, Digital Equipment
Corporation, Language Technology Inc., Image Sciences,
Tandem Computers, Telos Corporation, Jet Propulsion Lab
(JPL), Boeing Aircraft, Electrical Engineering Software
(EESOF), Compucorp, Wangtek, Data Products, GTE, Radian
Corporation, ATE Associates, RCA, Exxon, IBM, Northrop
Corporation, and NASA).  He said it is probably just a

     I informed him of the countless others who represented
themselves as being from large corporations (Chevron, CBS,
NBC, ABC, CNN, Paramount Pictures, Universal Pictures,
Lucasfilms, Disney Corporation, Aaron Spelling, Stephen
Bochco, WalMart, and others) and government agencies, then
my memory would be erased shortly after our meetings.  I
told him that I had at least three medical doctors, at least
three psychologists, a variety of software engineers, and
several electrical, chemical, and aerospace engineers as
patients.  I told him that the people using mind control on
me did not have me sign a contract, and they, as well as
those using the lasers are probably criminals.  He again
cautioned me that the information is classified, he would
investigate me if I persisted in revealing my information.
I was confused because previously he said I could not be in
possession of classified information.

     I told him I had some memory of at least one man who
claimed to be with the C.I.A., who had used mind control on
me to erase my memory of our meetings.  The F.B.I. agent
said he seemed to remember a C.I.A. operative that was in
the area that turned "bad" about ten (10) years earlier,
maybe it was him.  He then proceeded to tell me that it
sounds like some organization "had their hooks in me," and
that if I talked about it publicly they would probably "rip
my guts out."  I told him the names of a couple of F.B.I.
agents I now recall who tried to help me.  He said they were
no longer with the Bureau or available.  He did not want to
investigate and he offered no solutions.

     I anguished with the reality that for over forty-two
(42) years I had been a victim of mind control, torture, and
slavery.  Since I had not yet realized that I had surgical
implants I tried to continue on with my life.  However, in
June 1991 when I was forty-four (44) years old, they
informed me through the speakers that I presently have
implanted in my skull, that the speakers are there.  They
just simply increased the volume so I could hear them
consciously.  They also informed me that I have an
electroencephalograph (EEG) transmitter implanted in my
brain, and that they use bio-medical telemetry and computers
to read the EEG.  They indicated that the EEG transmitter
was implanted approximately ten (10) years earlier, in about
1981 when I was thirty-four (34) years old.  I believe it
was implanted even earlier, perhaps in 1970, when I was
twenty-three (23) years old.

     I was a student-employee and an administrative aide at
the Department of Defense Contracts Administration Services
in Van Nuys, California, in the summer of 1970.  I was taken
to several defense contractors' locations (Rockwell, Litton,
and Lockheed), and shortly after my memory would be erased.
On one occasion I was taken to the Lockheed Corporation in
Burbank, California.  I was asked to "test" a new pilot
simulation chair including the oxygen mask.  I was then
administered a general anesthetic and some type of cranial
operation was performed, and then my memory of the events
was erased until recently.  A couple of years later in about
1972, when I was twenty-five (25) years old, I was directed
to "hypnotherapy" by Eric Marcus, M.D., at the Gestalt
Therapy Institute in Santa Monica, California.  My memories
for those sessions were also erased.  I just recently
recalled the sessions when I saw his name listed in
Operation Mind Control (Walter Bowart, 1978) as one of the
psychiatrists that evaluated Sirhan Sirhan, the alleged
assassin of Robert Kennedy.

     After the realization of my implants in June 1991, and
the perpetrators around the clock torture of me, I contacted
several medical doctors.  All of the doctors indicated that
I must have nerve damage or a psychiatric disorder, because
what I was describing doesn't happen.  In August 1991 I was
given a Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI), it is similar to
X-rays, of my brain.  The technician happen to mention that
the images on the screen were not accurate.  When I pursued
a conversion, forgetting that I am constantly monitored, a
man entered the West Hills Regional Medical Center MRI
location and told me I had to leave.  Of course the doctor,
Jeff London, M.D., who ordered the MRI, said the results did
not show anything.

     I know, and the perpetrators know, that a legitimate
MRI or X-rays, radio frequency analysis, or surgery will
prove the existence of their diabolical system.  However, I
also know that they are experts at eliminating evidence, and
when they can't eliminate the evidence they simply manage
the public, media, and judicial system.  For example, in
December 1991 I was accosted by a psychiatrist, Dr. Goldin,
who was in the public mental health system.  After
physically pushing me several times in front of about ten
(10) witnesses, he explained to me that they were there to
witness my violent tendency.  I did nothing but walk away.
He said that he was going to record that I was the one doing
the accosting.  He said the truth doesn't matter, what he
says will be treated as the truth!  When I sought legal
representation from a San Luis Obispo County Public
Defender, David Sachs, he said he knew the allegations were
lies, but he was going to treat them as the truth and there
was nothing I could do about it!  When the perpetrators give
me more information about what they have done to me, and I
share it with others, they intensify their efforts at
creating an image of me as mentally ill instead of as their
victim.  I have been threatened that the perpetrators will
bring forth one of their cleverly constructed frames of me,
if I continue to reveal information.  I am sure some of you
are familiar with their usual efforts at hiding their
inhumane practices.

     I even tried to comply with their "code of silence,"
thinking that would bring relief.  In January 1992, while
they were torturing me with their incessant broadcast, I
decided to teach a community college psychology course on
stress.  I did everything to appear normal.  I believed
maybe I would receive some help if I did not seem to be a
witness against them.  I also thought the normal appearance
would counter their efforts to discredit me.  It took all my
effort to conduct the class, some how I completed the term.
I don't believe with any effort that I could presently
accomplish any task that requires sustained concentration.

     My background is in psychology, and I have a master's
degree.  I was a Ph.D. candidate in counseling at the
University of California, Los Angeles.  I taught psychology
part-time at a community college for twenty (20) years, and
practiced as a licensed Marriage, Family, and Child
Counselor for fifteen (15) years.  When they first informed
me of my implants in June 1991, I thought they were using
infrasound and trying to make me psychotic and discredit my
testimony.  However, after a few days of testing what they
were saying to me, it became clear.  I have radio receiver-
transmitters implanted next to each of my ear drums, and an
EEG transmitter implanted in my brain.  They have
demonstrated quite conclusively they can read every one of
my thoughts.  The system is extremely fast and accurate.
They inform me of their knowledge of my most minimal
thoughts, auditory perceptions, and visual perceptions.  The
system is also very powerful.  I have tried evading the
radio signals by hiding in structures and traveling great
distances.  Unfortunately, they have always been able to
receive data from the transmitters, and I have always heard
their broadcast.  Nothing has been successful.

     The perpetrators are presently using the implants to
torture me.  They read every thought, make continual bizarre
distracting comments, give constant subliminal commands, and
use high pitch sounds against me every moment.  They use a
combination of extremely demented, vulgar, heinous, and
satanic ranting; then alternate this with informing me of
the details of thousands of days and experiences for which I
have had complete amnesia.  They will at times cause me to
laugh, smile, and display a lighter mood, while inside I
know they are creating an image for a situation and I am
actually extremely distressed.  I know that they still have
complete control of me, even though I am now aware of their
system.  They like to command me to do different behaviors,
then taunt me with I am their toy and robot.  They
continually remind me that it is impossible to counter their
subliminal commands.  They call this process of torturing me
"icing."  They have been controlling and torturing me for my
entire life.  The perpetrators increased their subliminal
broadcast to a conscious level and have been using the
speakers and EEG transmitter to torture me continuously
since June 1991.

     For over two and a half (2 1/2) years they incessantly,
viciously, and maniacally read my thoughts, make vulgar
comments, give me atrocious subliminal commands, broadcast
noxious sounds, and disorient me every moment.  They even
structure my dreams when I fall asleep from exhaustion.
They have several times kept me awake for several days, I
know I was very near death.  They tell me they are the
"Illuminati," or "Freemasons," or "Brotherhood;" or the
"C.I.A.," or "N.S.A.," or "U.S. Navy Intelligence," or "U.S.
Army Intelligence," or "U.S. Air Force Intelligence;" or a
particular corporation like "Rockwell International," or
"Lockheed Corporation," or "Northrop Corporation," or
"Exxon."  Probably each description contains some truth.  I
just think of them as The Organization.

     Since I began realizing in 1989 that I am a victim; for
about three (3) years no one would even admit to me that any
type of mind control existed.  I concluded that their
terrorism is so effective that no one ever talks about it.
Then in August 1992 an anonymous person in a book store
pointed to a book called Breaking The Circle of Satanic
Ritual Abuse (1992), by Daniel Ryder.  I can not concentrate
very well, so I only skimmed the book.  It presented
information about the "Marionette Syndrome," or slavery, and
other abuses.  It described explicitly some of the mind
control techniques, it gave references to other books on
ritual abuse, and it listed some organizations that help

     In August 1992 I began contacting the above
organizations.  Most of the people with whom I spoke
acknowledged that the above atrocities are real and that
countless others have been victimized.  However, each
individual and organization presented some barrier to
actually helping me beyond occasionally listening to my
anguish.  One organization said it sounds like The
Illuminati or The Brotherhood is torturing me.  They said
they have helped several of their victims.  They told me
that they would send me some information, and then I should
call them back to make arrangements to travel to their
location.  When I called them again, they said they can help
others they just can't help me.  The above basic scenario
has happen on several occasions.  It seems that my
circumstance is just too controlled and dangerous, that
people are unable or afraid to help me.

     Consequently, in March 1993 I briefly wrote about my
understanding of what is happening to me.  I posted my
warning on CompuServe, the world's largest commercial
computer network, under the file name "warn-a.txt."  I also
posted the warning on several computer bulletin boards under
the file name "warn-all.txt."  Additionally, I mailed the
warning to all the supportive individuals and organizations
on a list that I have compiled that began with the list in
Daniel Ryder's book.  As well, I have personally distributed
the warning to many people.  I am in the process of revising
the warning to include more accurate information from
different sources.

     In March 1993 a psychologist from Los Angeles read my
warning and called me.  She said she knew that the
atrocities I had described are real, and told me I should
contact Julianne McKinney.  I subsequently contacted
Julianne McKinney.  She is a member of the Association of
National Security Alumni, and she is a director of the
Electronic Surveillance Project.  She also authored
Microwave Harassment and Mind-Control Experimentation
(1992).  It is about some of the various high technology
methods of abuse and mind control used by members the U.S.
Government.  She sent to me her publication and other
information.  Brain Transmitters:  What They Are And How
They Are Used (1992), Mediaecco; International Network
against Mind Control 's (INMC) letter to British Prime
Minister John Major, dated Stockholm September 9, 1992; and
a fact sheet Bio-Medical Telemetry Mind Control:  The
Technology and Its Possibilities (1992), Mediaecco; as well
as other information was sent to me.

     Since receiving the above information, I have received
a variety of books, documents, copies of X-rays, and a few
phone calls testifying to the reality of remote mind reading
and control.  For example, I received Operation Mind Control
(1978), Walter Bowart; Such Things Are Known (1982), Dorothy
Burdick; The Controllers (1990), Martin Cannon; Implantable
Biotelemetry Systems (1970), Thomas Fryer, NASA; and from
Mediaecco in Sweden an extensive Mind Control Bibliography
(1994), on mind control, bio-telemetry, and other electronic
mind control methods.

     I am incapacitated for days, weeks, and months at a
time.  My ability to be productive is gravely impaired, but
there are a few projects that my handlers have let me
complete.  I do not know why.  I do know they monitor my
every thought and action.  They were even suggesting phrases
to me for inclusion in this letter.  They control and
manipulate 90-100% of my behaviors.

     If you or anyone you know can be of any help in
securing freedom and surgery for me, I would be greatly
appreciative and forever indebted.  However, I am not
optimistic.  The Organization here in America seems to have
complete dominance of every individual and institution.
They boast to me how they are the Eye of Illuminati,
Freemasons, and the secret Greek Society.  They say they are
a worldwide nation that governs the world.  They tell me
that no country or organization would dare defy them.  They
indicate that they are the government behind most

     I would like to receive any information you have about
legitimate professional assistance.  However, please
remember that those who are controlling me will also know
your information.  I know first hand that their methods are
extremely effective and that they will do anything to retain
their power.  I know that they are masters of deceit and
frequently use a Trojan horse.  They set up front
organizations to portray that they are helping victims so
that they can uncover any underground opposition.  I hope
that some people and organizations that seem to be genuinely
helping victims are real.

     I am very skeptical.  For instance, I wonder about
former intelligence officers based in a suburb of
Washington, D.C., that publish information about government
abuses.  Why does the Association of National Security
Alumni publish an expose' about microwave harassment and
mind-control experimentation?  When in reality it is not
harassment or experimentation.  They are actually diabolical
torture and perfected mind control systems, respectively.
Why do they emphasize the beginning of government electronic
abuses in 1988 or 1989?  When they should very well know the
abuses have existed for decades.  You would think former
intelligence officers would know these facts.  Why do they
emphasize microwaves and directed-energy methods?  When
there are complete thought reading and mind control systems
using implanted devices, telemetry, and super-computers.
Why do they present circumstantial evidence with references
to records, scars, inconclusive X-rays, and victims'
testimonies?  When there are victims that are known to them,
and brain images, frequency analyzers, and surgeries prove
the existence of the devices beyond any doubt.  Why is there
no reference to the secret societies and fraternities like
the Mafia, PII, and Freemasons?  Why is there no mention of
the prevalence of mind controlled slaves?

     On the positive side, Julianne McKinney and the
Association of National Security Alumni sent to me
relatively explicit and useful information.  Their material
did provide examples and documentation of government and
medical community atrocities.  They did describe a variety
of methods and technologies used to commit abuses, including
some medical implants.  I can only hope that some who seem
to be helping victims, are genuine and have not been created
by, or replaced with perpetrators of the atrocities.

     I will continue to be skeptical and cautious.  I know
that all legal systems are usurped by The Organization and
public laws and constitutions are circumvented.

     I hope you disseminate the information I share with
you.  I would very much appreciate it if you can send me any
additional information, or if you can provide any help.  I
believe that I need a professional group familiar with
ritual abuse that could arrange a legitimate X-ray and
eventually surgery.  I do look forward to hearing from you.
Please keep in mind my caution about any communication with
me will be known by my handlers.
+ - Re: An answer ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 7 Dec 1995  wrote:

> Fortunately in the West these two men are seen quite differently because
> we have not forgotten those TV pictures of late '89, early '90 with
> Tokes celebrated as a hero, even by Romanians themselves.  Funar on the
> other hand was shown never more than the scum he is.
> So your equating those two guys tells more about you than about Tokes or
> Funar.
> Joe

Certainly Joe ! If I may add, it tells more about me, than it tells about 
you and other armchair experts that gather their info and form their
opinions by sticking their potato heads in a TV.
If you still have some capacity for objectivity left unadultarated, you 
should spend a little time in the area. 
That may help confront and reconcile your pipe dreams, missunderstandings
and half truths you arrived at, with the realities of the place !

m. cristian
+ - Re: Slovakia & Sweden (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"In article >,  says...
">Just a simple question as I don't know:
">How many Slovaks (mean Slovak speaking population) live today
">in Hungary 

     about 150000

and how many Slovak schools there exist in Hungary?

     exactly 0
"">Jorma Kyppo
+ - Re: Gay rights in Romania - again "printre codasii Euro (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Balazs A. Kontes ) wrote:

: No offence guys, but with all the political unjusticeness and sh_t that's
: going on in that country, and I know cause I grew up there, you're talking
: about, discussing and trying to maybe help the situation for a few thousands
: of homosexuals(szerencsetlenek) when there are 3.5 million ethnic
: minorities, who have bigger problems and who are in deeper sh_t.
:   What I suggest to you, is to first try to make Rumania into a real
: democratic country, where people can feel free and good, and then start
: thinking about changing the laws and suit everybodies needs.  Start at the
: base ( the main problem) and then work yourself up to the top.  
: But I wish you a whole lot of luck.
: --

I completely agree with you.  I'm sure there are far more serious topics 
with which the Rumanians need to deal with.  However I can never aviod 
getting pissed off by someone like the anonymous writer who feels it is 
their place to be judgemental.  And instead of just letting it slide by, 
I like to make my opinion heard as well.

+ - Re: Radio Free Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  (Jorma Kypp|) wr
 >Chris Bussler ) wrote:
 > > Prague, Czech Republic. Therefore, I would like to talk to (i. e.
 > > exchange some mails with) somebody who listened to RFE during the Cold
 > > War or still listens to it today. I would be interested in how it
 > > influenced you personally and the political environment and society as
 > > a whole in Eastern European states.
 > > I would be very thankful if somebody could tell me about his
 > > experiences,
 >And I like to know what is it's political task now, after Cold War?
 >After having heard some of their programs I started to wonder...

They have ceased to be what they used to be.  They have a kinda
concordate with the local rulers. Ive discovered a pattern in their 
+ - Re: HELP! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 (Gabor Barsai) wrote:

> Dear Citizens:
>      I am a victim of mind control. 

Who is not?

a lot of stuff deleted

>                      I do look forward to hearing from you.
> Please keep in mind my caution about any communication with
> me will be known by my handlers.

Hi. Who is your handler? Mine is The International Jewish-Freemason
Cryptooligarchy. At the moment they focus mainly on doing some harm to
Slovakia. It's a nice and easy job.
On the other hand, they can be really cruel. Imagine, last time they have
put an implant into my head. They call it "brain". And they forced me to
think! That was awfull, man. 

Regards to you and to your handlers


Signature under construction...
+ - Re: Meaning of "Slav" and "Rus" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
>Leszek Andrzej Kleczkowski ) wrote:
>> Pavel Afanasiev ) wrote:
>> : In article >,  says...
>> : >What is the point in arithmetically analysing somebody's ethnic 
>> : >composition?
>> : >Wojtek
>> : I'm 1/3 jew.
>> How is it possible?
>Nice joke indeed, but it is possible if
>a) you count enough many generations and get a suitable combination
>   (I've a dog, which is 1/3 collie + 6 other races)
>b) you come from Mars where they have 3 sexes.
>Jorma Kyppo


I'm 100%  Jew and 100%  Merkin. 
I guess that means I'm 200%.  ;-)

    Clare   8-)