Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 345
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-05-22
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: contracts law-- slovak style (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: A FORUM ho"skorszakarol (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: "%FNAME%" is a racist and a coward, (was Re: Transy (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Principles, Ciuca&Pannon (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: THE SOVIET UNION SHALL RISE AGAIN! (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Husak vs Meciar governments (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
13 felkeres (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
14 Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind)  1593 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Transylvania was,is and would be rumanian province? (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind)  93 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind)  79 sor     (cikkei)
18 (no subject) (mind)  86 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (T.M.Lutas) wrote:

>In article
>, Matthew
>Paul Kenneth > wrote:

>> I am an American going to teach in Kolozsvar next year. 

>So, do you call New York, New Amsterdam? ...snip.....

>> I have seen 
>> excavation inching nearer and nearer to the church, nearer and nearer to 
>> the statue, excavation that the citizens of KOLOZSVAR are paying for that 
>> has yielded absolutely nothing of value, nothing connecting Romania to 
>> their ancient Roman roots, nothing. 

>As long as they don't start digging up the church or the statue...snip...

>> Regardless of who was where first, 
>> there is the valid arguement that what the Saxons and Magyars contributed 
>> to Transylvania (culture,folk and otherwise, schools, churches etc.)in the 
>> 19th, 18th, 17th and 16th centuries cannot be denied. Anyone interested 
>> in western culture at all could understandably mourn for that loss, a 
>> loss not due to the Romanian people but due to the evils of war, 
>> propaganda and Ceaucescu.

>I'm not denying it and neither do most Romanians. There is nothing wrong
>with teaching the true contributions of these two peoples. The problem is
>in separating out the truth from the fictions propagated during 
>magyarization campaigns of this century and the last. I believe that this
>is the source of most of the inter-ethnic friction that manifests itself
>between our two peoples. 

...   I would say that people like you are the source of most of the
inter-ethnic friction that exists....you wear your paranoia's on your
sleeve.....and you've have posted some amazing things ...but this one
is right up there...next you'll be telling us that Hunyadi was
Romanian....
+ - Re: contracts law-- slovak style (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Igor GAZDIK > wrote:
>
>	it is beginning to dawn upon you.   perhaps a good start
>	on the way to your enlightnment would be to subscribe to
>	omri news.   that will give you a mildly retouched view
>	of hungary, but still very different from your own
>	halucinogenic views.   happy reading.

You have quite a nerve to say such things, Gazdik, considering that you 
yourself are the butt of all kinds of jokes by your fellow Slovaks.

Time for reality check, Igor!

Joe
+ - Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Rebecca Romani wrote:
> 
> I have a suggestion: get yourselves a bunch of dictionaries and spend a
> few hours looking all this up. If you have to post each other, leave
> SCM out of it. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED. I repeat, WE ARE NOT INTERESTED.
> Your cooperation would be greatly appreciated.


Would that be soc.culture.mexican, soc.culture.malaysia,
soc.culture.malagasy, soc.culture.magyar, soc.culture.mongolian,
or soc.culture.maghreb?

-- 
Kevin R. Gee

+ - Re: A FORUM ho"skorszakarol (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Zoli
Fekete,  writes:
> mar a hivatalos partosodast megelozoen beindult,
>hogy ezen kampannyal valamelyest ellensulyozzak a demokratikus ellenzek
>helyzeti elonyet az ellenallo multtal nem igazan buszkelkedheto MDF-el
>szemben;

Szerintem ez az allitasod sem allja meg a helyet. Lehet, hogy tetelesen
nem volt 56-os az MDF , de az otvenhatosok tulnyomo tobbsege a
nemzeti oldalt tamogatta.
Az SZDSZ-fele 'demokratikus ellenallas' az egy vicc, es ezzel mindenki
tisztaban volt, ami azt illeti az azzal villogas eppen ezert visszafele
sult el. 

Az SZDSZ-nek nem hogy helyzet elonye nem volt, hanem eppen hogy
hatranyban voltak. A 4 igenes szavazassal is csak a masodik helyre
tudtak felkuzdeni magukat, es azt is Antaleknak koszonhetik, akik
azt a szavazast ugy elcsesztek. (Mondjuk jol volt megcsinalva, en
is bedoltem nekik es elmentem szavazni.)

>ha mar az ellenfellel szemben nem tudtak sokat felhozni

Nem kellett felhozni ellenuk semmit. A kutya sem ismerte még
akkor oket.

Tamas
+ - Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
 says...
>
>In article
>, Matthew
>Paul Kenneth > wrote:
>
>> I am an American going to teach in Kolozsvar next year. 
>
>So, do you call New York, New Amsterdam? You've done the equivalent with
>Cluj. 

This is one helluva STUPID and IGNORANT thing to say! Kolozsvar is the 
legitimate Magyar language name today (and was long before Romania ever 
existed) as much as Cluj-Napoca is the legitimate Romanian language name. 
New Amsterdam, used by English language speakers, was *officially* changed 
to New York by those English language speakers and to make any comparison 
with Kolozsvar/Cluj-Napoca is utterly idiotic. 

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***
+ - Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(-S-L-I-C-E-) wrote:

>In > 
>(T.M.Lutas) writes: 
>>
>>In article >,  (George
>>Szaszvari) wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
 (T. M. Lutas) says:
>>> 
>>> >At the start of schooling one does not have a real language. Developing a
>>> >language is one of the basic tasks of educating a child. A child is a 
>>> >child and does not have "Hungarian" or "Romanian" stamped on their
>>> >forehead on exit from the womb. In a truly ethnically blind society they
>>> >would continue to be treated the same. Separate language schooling is a 
>>> >recipe for differential treatment and differential rights.
>>> 
>>> I have to disagree.
>>> 
>>> 1) Language is first used in the home. The child learns about language 
>>> and life from the parents (other than in exceptional circumstances.) The 
>>> *stamped on the forehead* comment is a misleading red-herring. Family life 
>>> provides the real education of any child, based on my experience of having 
>>> worked in schools and junior organizations of many different types in 
>>> Britain for more than a decade. Schools provide the opportunity for study 
>>> in special subjects (mostly other than language) that the parents might 
>>> not otherwise be able to provide, or have the time to provide, plus the 
>>> possibilities for comradeship with other children of similar age. The 
>>> general successes demonstrated by home tutoring of children by educated 
>>> parents over the huge failure rate in educational systems world-wide 
>>> suggests that educational systems and schools still have a lot to learn 
>>> about education. 
>>
>>There is a house language that parents do provide prior to entry into 
>>school. However, the great majority of a person's vocabulary is likely
>>to be learned at school, not at home. Technical terms outside the parent's
>>speciality and literary terms are much more likely to be picked up in 
>>school than at home. And if the home is a hungarian one, how is the 
>>child going to learn Romanian? How is that child going to avoid having
>>his prospects limited to his own minority community? There needs to be 
>>A certain amount of Romanian language instruction otherwise ghettoization
>>is going to occur and this is going to lead to friction and problems for
>>both our communities.
>>
>>I do share your respect and admiration for the home schooling effort but
>>in a situation like Romania where the neo-communist government is engaged
>>in a perverse practice of national pauperization of anyone who is not a 
>>party member, home schooling is going to fall by the wayside sooner rather
>>than later. 
>>
>>> 2) The *recipe for differential rights and treatment* comment reflects 
>>> only your perception, i.e., the need to conform (or the need for anything 
>>> different to be assimilated.) Do you betray your Ceaucescu era upbringing?
>>
>>No, more probably my American upbringing. I came over to America when I
>>was two. My perceptions of bilingual education are more colored by the
>>abysmal failure here than communist propaganda. Bilingual education has
>>been a real disservice to hispanics here and has created rifts in American
>>society that did not have to be there. I would hate to see those rifts in
>>Romanian society. They just provide openings for the extremists on both
>>sides which I hope you agree with me would be a *bad thing*.
>>
>>> Liberate your shackled mind! Free yourself and accept others (whoever 
>>> they may be) without fearing their differences!
>>
>>I don't fear your differences, I fear miscommunication, the ghettoization
>>of hungarian minorities, the increasing use of the ethnic card in Romanian
>>politics, and most of all, any divisions between the people that allow
>>the communists to stay in power 1 day longer than necessary.
>>
>>DB
>>
>>-- 

>  Didn't read all this, but it don't matter... though something else
>I've noticed and herd... is that Hungarians are trying to get a piece
>of Romania, and act or think it was theirs, (Transilvania) heck, since
>I can remember or the history of Europe.. Trans. never belonged to
>Hungaria, it is not Rom.'s fault cuz they ran away from their own
>country and went to Rom. and multiplyed as the time went along... 
>About the schooling system or the country, you move to China, you learn
>Chinese, you move to US, you learn English, you move to Mexico you
>learn Spanish, countries are not and should not put up with people,
>that want to start their own system, and their own goverment just
>because a large sum or amount live in a different country.  That is
>"B.S."  I've been to 3 different countries, actully 4 and I had to
>learn their languages, and didn't complain.... so will you..

>  If that's true (that Hung. are trying to start their own thing in
>Romania) this is a laughing matter... I think Rom. aught to tighten
>their laws and start ruling again... 
============

"SLICE" is the  product of almost 100 years of general brainwashing of
our society. This is a perfect example what the Masaryk-Benes and
Rumanian propaganda and hate-literature did in the worlds's opinion
before World War I right up until today... non-stop! LIES, LIES,
LIES....!

I really feel sorry for this "cultured" global citizen  who is not
only in total fog, but  obviously so sure of his/her  historical
facts. But  one day hopefully someone knowlegeable  will straighten
him/her out. He/she  never bothered to sign his name.Why not? Too shy?
Or too afraid of the consequences because of spreading more lies? Has
he/she  has ever had a History book in his/her hand? 
Indeed, here  he/she  is giving instructions to people about  what to
do in a country he/she has never been in before and does not know the
frist thing about?
Suggestion:"Slice"  when should read enough History books --
presenting different and objective  views,!  "Slice" should re-read
what he has written  above and start thinking.... 
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
+ - Re: "%FNAME%" is a racist and a coward, (was Re: Transy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "%FNAME%"
> wrote:

> Not until the Romanians appologize to all the Jews and other minorities 
> whom they slaughter in pogroms such as the one in Iasi and Bucharest, 
> where according to all archives it was mostly Romanians who shot innocent 
> women older poeple and children, including 13 of my family members.  
> Other Eastern European countries have done it, why not Romania? Or maybe 
> those "poor" Romanians were persuaded to pour gasoline down the throats 
> of innocent civilians and set them on fire by the Securitate?

Dammit pogroms are wrong and I've said it before and I will say it again
whenever the subject comes up. I also have no sympathy for totalitarians, 
racists, and anti-semites and I make that known as well. I am also a 
Romanian and for that fact you bunch me and the rest of the honest, decent
Romanians with the despicable percentage of the population *that we would
like to get out of power*. That too is wrong and if you don't see it then
the only difference between you and those you hate is opportunity for
expression of your feelings. 

> Yes, you all deserve what you get, and much more, that is the pure 
> contempt of the world.

Guilt by nationality. That's good. Keep on stoking the hate flames, make
every Romanian your enemy, and then be confirmed in your racist opinions.
One thing that you may not understand about us is that there is a 
large number of people who have the attitude of "if you are going to be
punished, it might as well be for something". You are creating anti-semitism, 
you are creating hate. I hope that you are happy. I certainly am not.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
+ - Re: Principles, Ciuca&Pannon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>In >, Law Student  > wrote: 
>>Again, friendly, I invite you to chek the facts before you refer to the  
>>history of another country.It's a minimum and absolute necessary bon
>>sense! 
>>Understandableness, your Valerius M. Ciuca.

On May 14/96 in <Re:  ()' wrote: 
>Me, too, friendly remind you that students should refrain lecturing 
>before they finish their studies. 
>Yours, Panonescu 

If Delerius Valerius holds to the principle that one should not refer to
the history of a country other than one's own until first checking the
facts, then the same principle should apply that one should not use the
language (English) of others until the the facts (spelling) are first
checked. It's the minimum and absolute necessity I would expect from one
who is so demanding of others.

If JoeJob Pannonescu holds to the principle that one should hold their
lecture until the completion of their studies, then the same principle
should apply that one should not misuse their second language (English)
until their studies are completed. "Friendly remind you"

But then again, if the only common denominator between Valerius and
Pannonescu is their respective mangling of other's mother's tongue, well,
tabernac, mange le merde moi petit pet. (przt)
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Re: THE SOVIET UNION SHALL RISE AGAIN! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 19 May 1996, Charles Dyer wrote:
> 																						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Seems like a certain ex-veep from Indiana would be worse than Slick 
> Willy. But only 'cause he's _stupid_. Where the Slickster's just smart 
> enough to get himself into big trouble, Danny-boy's so dumb he'll fall 
> into trouble and never know what hit him...

Dan Quayle is not stupid.  He's just a victim of the liberal media.  
Before he became VP, he had a reputation as being an intelligent Senator, 
on top of the issues.  His speech about Murphy Brown and motherhood was 
brilliant.  He's going to be President one day.   

Michael Rack

>
+ - Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In >  (George Szaszvari) write
s:

>In article >, 
 says...
>>
>>In article
>, Matthew
>>Paul Kenneth > wrote:
>>
>>> I am an American going to teach in Kolozsvar next year. 
>>
>>So, do you call New York, New Amsterdam? You've done the equivalent with
>>Cluj. 
>
>This is one helluva STUPID and IGNORANT thing to say! Kolozsvar is the 
>legitimate Magyar language name today (and was long before Romania ever 
>existed) as much as Cluj-Napoca is the legitimate Romanian language name. 

I'd say Cluj is the legitimate Romanian language name.  Cluj-Napoca is an
idiotic invention of Romania's late dictator.

>New Amsterdam, used by English language speakers, was *officially* changed 
>to New York by those English language speakers and to make any comparison 
>with Kolozsvar/Cluj-Napoca is utterly idiotic. 

Not quite.  The original poster wrote in English about a Romanian town
whose English name (according to my Webster) is "Cluj".  Using its
Hungarian name was about as silly as using the New Amsterdam name for
New York.

If the original message were written in Hungarian (and posted to s.c.m
only) it would have been plain silly to use Cluj instead of Kolozsvar.
But this was _not_ the case.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland
+ - Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Followup-To: alt.test,misc.test,news.test,soc.test,talk.test
References: > > <Pine.
> <Pine.SOL.3.91.9605
> > <Pi
> 
dera.com>
Organization: pada pendapat saya...
Reply-To: 
Distribution: 
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Kevin Gee ) [Tue, 21 May 1996 01:50:29 -0600] <soc.culture.mal
aysia>:
#Rebecca Romani wrote:
#> 
#> I have a suggestion: get yourselves a bunch of dictionaries and spend a
#> few hours looking all this up. If you have to post each other, leave
#> SCM out of it. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED. I repeat, WE ARE NOT INTERESTED.
#> Your cooperation would be greatly appreciated.
#
#Would that be soc.culture.mexican, soc.culture.malaysia,
#soc.culture.malagasy, soc.culture.magyar, soc.culture.mongolian,
#or soc.culture.maghreb?


I suspect the answer is: ALL OF THE ABOVE.

[Beware Followup-To:]
+ - Re: Husak vs Meciar governments (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

5-21-96 Ivo Novak wrote:

>  On 20 May 1996, Igor GAZDIK wrote:
> #In article >,  
> #says...
> #>
> #>If you don't see any difference between the Communist government of
> #>Husak's Czechoslovakia and Meciar's, we do indeed have a problem.  I
> #>hope you are wrong.
> 	i see a whole lot of differences.   husak contributed greatly
> 	to the development of czechia (although once sentenced to death
> 	by them).   meciar is building up slovakia, in spite of the odds
> 	he is facing.
> 
> 	one thing that escapes me is how or why tou could have a problem
> 	in this context ...?

Normalization process of early 70's, that Mr. Husak is so closely
associated with, due to his (pragmatic?) role in CSSR - SSSR relations,
was not by any measure characterized by (disproportioned) development
of Czechlands (on expense of Slovakia). 

On a contrary. Staffing of federal agencies (in Prague), numerous PZOs
(gvmt monopolies in foreign trade), even institutions away from strictly
government sphere (banks) were in those years increasinly filled by Slovak
nationals.

While economic development and production statistics for Husak's reign can
be produced (Bureau of Statistics?), I remember one from late 80's that
was comparing housing construction in (1975 - 1985 decade) by "kraj" (i.e.
10 administrative  regions that the Cs. federation was divided into).
All Slovak regions (West, Central, East and Blava) handily beated most of
the Czech regions. I recall for example that West Slovakia had 3 times as
many new housing units/100 000 citizen than did West Bohemia. 

Fact of life is - that from variety of reasons and not only in post-68
normalization, Slovak communist leaders enjoyed higher degree of trust in
Kremlin. Combine that with a fact that Western Bohemia - with remnants of
German population - was, as Czechlands in general "less ideologically
reliable", and perhaps a buffer zone for any armed conflict with the West,
statistics of economic investments of all sorts, trickled down to
(socialist style, noneless highly desirable) housing construction, speak a
clear language.

The facts of past injustices and lack of awareness (or godwill) in
arranging government matters in trully federative ways do not change that
much on these hard data. Daily flow of T603 or T613 black limusines with
Blava and Pha license plates, carrying governmental, party and industry
folks each way on Bratislava - Prague hwy was also telling. 
Measured in material benefits, Husak's regime definitelly did not sided
with western part of the country. And it will be extremelly hard to
produce any statistical data that can suggest that.

Atmosphere of post-Communism collapse, with Ireland, Quebeck, all Soviet
Block and other countries feeling less pressure (or need) to stay "in
line" with either block, is also diametrally different from anything in a
past 70+ years. Measuring the past with current (political sensitivity and
opportunity) standards does not always lead to useful conclusions.

Husak the developer of the Czechlands ? By what stretch of imagination?
Economic (and other post-split adjustments) in the Slovak Republic are
positive, often surprising all experts. There are many things that will
play well in a long time and sense of national pride + strategic location
might be among them. But claiming that Husak minded Czechlands on expense
of Slovakia is not a help that is needed, nor accurtate in historic or
absolute sense.

Ivo
+ - felkeres (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

˙WPCš
+ - Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/14
Version: 1.41
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle [press review]
2.3  "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulletin]
2.4  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

- - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is mostly
concerned with resources freely available netwide.
 See also the sections under 2. below which list services that carry
occasional English material, some regularly, besides their primarily
Hungarian language content.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>. It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived by
HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;. A similar archive is to be found at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>; (see 1.8 below). For www/e-mail
gateways see <http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html>; or the
archives mentioned above.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). 
For accessing groups in the international hierarchy from abroad via
gopher the gateway in the Netherlands may be better:
<gopher://g4nn.cca.vu.nl:4320/1g4nn%20group/soc.culture.magyar>.  The
hun.* groups are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS')
and they are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>; as well
as <http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>;.
 HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar and
hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>. A similar gatewaying service
is also available for soc.culture.magyar via
<mailto:> (see 1.8 below), as well as via
<mailto:> (see also 2.3).

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.7 'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address. For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY. You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL. SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software. For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

 The Hungarian-American List is an unmoderated discussion forum to
promote communications between people with interest in modern Hungarian
culture and Hungarian cultural heritage. The list brings you, among
other things, news items originating from OMRI, CET, the Hungarian
media and several other sources, that might be of interest for
Hungarians and Americans. The WWW Home Page of the Hungarian-American
list is <http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>;. Subscribe by
<mailto:>, using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY. The Hungarian Usenet group -
soc.culture.magyar is available for Hungarian-American List subscribers
via email. You can subscribe to this news-to-mail-to-news service by
<mailto:>, using no Subject, in the body of the
letter write SUBSCRIBE SOC-CULTURE-MAGYAR. The WWW address of the
interactive soc.culture.magyar archive is
<http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/>;.

 (Notice that this Maryland-based list is distinct from the older
LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus - mentioning
'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one! Note also that
the Majordomo server syntax is different from LISTSERV for many of
their commands - see the help document sent by the server.)

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Nemzet Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulleti
n]

 [This section is as provided by <mailto:>]

(1) (E-mail news bulletins)
        "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap
        E-mail news digest, Mon-Fri, 25-55k. Comprises East-European
        regional news (by OMRI, in English), excerpts from Hungarian
        press (in Hungarian), and reports on newsworthy items (press,
        events, etc., mostly in Hungarian and occasionally in English)

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www:  http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(2) (usenet e-mail digest)
        "Nemzetiforum"
        Digest of "Soc.Culture.Magyar" by means of e-mail bulletin, filtering
        out all lists and postings beyond size 8k.

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(3) (www/e-mail gateway)
        E-mail message is acknowledged and posted to "Soc.Culture.Magyar",
        with your address and your subject-definition.
        Simply send contributions to  

        Gateway maintained under direction of:


(5) Hungarian Papers on WWW (liberal to conservative)

        (a)     168 ORA
                http://www.atm.com.pl/COM/xlori/168/ora.html

        (b)     KELET-MAGYARORSZAG
                http://www.bgytf.hu/public/keletm/

        (c)     UJVIDEKI NAPLO
                http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/naplo/naplo.htm

        (d)     DEMOKRATA
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/demokrata/

        (e)     NEMZET
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        (f)     MAGYAR ELET

http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/magyarel/hunlife.htm

        (g)     24. ORA
                http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth/


- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.4  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
"Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ" <http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source for conversion between text and RTF
(Rich Text Format), character sets ISO 8852/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin
2) and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically, RTF or text as well as used character set. The outbound
format is the same as the inbound format, the program changes only the
character set. In other words, the program does not convert from RTF ot
text or from text to RTF. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS, & UNIX and
other platforms supporting ANSI C.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Saghi-Szabo Gotthard <mailto:>, section 1.8
Toth, Joseph   <mailto:>, section 2.3
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors (with the exception of the
independently maintained section 2.3) are the responsibility of Zoli -
who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just comments
readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists). The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Since February 14, 1996 this document is authenticated 
by my secure public-key encrypted electronic signature 
(see <http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp>; for details), 
 the public key for which is shown in the WWW link 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/pgp-key.asc>; 
and is also attached to the end of the text available via
 'finger '!
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or 
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited!  

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/14
Version: 1.41
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days
- - - --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQB1AwUBMSJ2ijF5HDDpzOB1AQHAAAL/aD/kLD3P8WiCgp+ziqLdcMudg+POfPq2
3rivG8NSRW990vglrRKD7PCAOzqMwVglgYroD9atPPzo38NieFiPfWkbt65vlJCB
L8mjAjKvTIzrWK3deupW9hvzkzgdvpoy
=AfTK
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
+ - Re: Transylvania was,is and would be rumanian province? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>In article
>, Matthew
>Paul Kenneth > wrote:
>
>> I am an American going to teach in Kolozsvar next year.
>
>So, do you call New York, New Amsterdam? You've done the equivalent with
>Cluj.

 I don't recall you screaming when somebody called Bucuresti Bucharest. What's
your problem with someone using the Hungarian word instead of the Rumanian?
This is the same stuff when we call the South Pole De'li Sark, Moscow Moszkva,
and the Netherlands Hollandia. Don't inflate a flea to look like an elephant.

> This is rather annoying to some as we sometimes get a loony in here
>with irredentist visions of dismembering Romania.

Nobody ever wrote about dismembering Rumania. This whole thread is about
Erde'ly.


> It's not like America

You bet.
+ - Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

References: > >
> >
. >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> >
>


George Szaszvari wrote:


> Rubbish! According to your argument Flemings shouldn't use their own
> language in describing places Luik (Liege), Brussel (Bruxelles), Ieper
> (Ypres,) or the French/Walloons mustn't use Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen)..or
> zillions of other examples...all these different language names of the
> same places are prolifically sign-posted all over NW Europe. Not so with
> Hungarian names in Romania!! No way! I'm waiting for Romania to join the
> EU and will be extremely interested in seeing how Romanians react when
> Strasbourg human rights courts will try to FORCE them to face their own
> endemic hypocritical bigotry!

> Okay, let's call it Cluj (er, when I was there in '82 it was officially
> Cluj-Napoca, however nutty, for Romanian language speakers and Koloszvar
> for the Hungarian language speakers.) Webster doesn't prove anything...
> it had to use a name of some sort to describe the place and the current
> *official* Romanian name as used by the Romanian administration/bureaucracy
> is Cluj, fair enough; I don't mind calling it Cluj, when speaking directly
> to Romanians, but why should Mr Lutas (who so often tried to persuade me on
> these ngs that he is for harmonious Romanian-Hungarian co-existence in
> Transylvania) take someone to task for calling it Kolozsvar if that person's
> connection is with the Hungarian speakers there? Mr Lutas' indignation would
> be just as absurd as if a Walloon took a Fleming to task for calling
> Bruxelles *Brussel*!

 Nope. The point is that the message was in English. If one uses English
language, one should use the English name (if any). For instance, if I
speak about the capital of Romania, I'll write Bucharest in a English text,
Bucarest in a French or Italian one, Bukarest in a German one - and not
"Bucuresti". In your case, one must write (in a English text) "Brussels"
and not "Bruxelles" nor "Brussel". The example with "New York/Amsterdam"
is not at all appropriate from the very beginning because New York is
both English and official name, better forget it.
 Now, when one writes an English text, one has to check the recommended
English form in a dictionary. It happens that that form is identical to
the Romanian correct one for the discussed town: "Cluj".

 If there is no English special name nor a recommended one, by "political
correctness" (and by language rules), one should use the official form from
state's official language (which happens to be Romanian - the official name
is a stupidity, "Cluj-Napoca"). It is not the case here, there is a recom-
mended form in English.

 By the way, I have nothing against "Kolozsvar", or against "Clausenburg" 
(in German), or even against Latin form "Claudiopolis". They should be used
though when writing in Hungarian, German or Latin - respectively, but this
is more a matter of spelling correctness in a language than a political issue.

> Please remember that to Hungarian speakers it remains Kolozsvar and if any
> Romanian speaker is pissed off about that then they betray their bigotry
> and hateful nationalism. Just how much of a hypocrite is Mr Lutas (or
> yourself, for that matter)? BTW this thread is cross-posted to both scm
> and scr, and I'm posting in scm, so it's Kolozsvar, as far my family and
> I am concerned. Do you have a problem with that?

 As said, you may call the town as you want; however in English there is
a correct form for its' name which would be recommended in use; and inci-
dentally, we both write in English. Of course, you may feel that this is
a matter of contributor's nationality - to use the form Kolozsvar or Cluj
in an English text. Well, it doesn't make much sense to me from a logical
point of view - but everybody is entitled to have a different opinion.
 [Another example: in Romanian and in Italian, one calls the capital of 
Italy "Roma", however I will refer to it as "Rome" in an English text (and
"Rom" in a German one); an Italian guy should do the same. I won't continue,
I hope I made my point enough clear.]

> The Kolozsvar/Cluj difference is one of currently used nomenclature by two
> different ethnic groups there and very obviously doesn't bear the remotest
> comparison with the New Amsterdam/New York name change (unless, of course,
> you desire to consign all long-standing indigenous NON-Romanian language
> and culture in Kolozsvar/Cluj to the dustbin. Now I see where Funar gets
> his support from.)

 As said before, the comparison with the New Amsterdam/New York name change
is not similar to our case. 

 Please, don't get so fast to radical conclusions. You might be wrong.

  Regards,
						Marius Iacomi
+ - Re: Transilvania was,is and would be romanian province (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>
>In >  (George Szaszvari) 
writes:
>
>>In article >, 
 says...
>>>
>>>In article
>, 
Matthew
>>>Paul Kenneth > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am an American going to teach in Kolozsvar next year. 
>>>
>>>So, do you call New York, New Amsterdam? You've done the equivalent with
>>>Cluj. 
>>
>>This is one helluva STUPID and IGNORANT thing to say! Kolozsvar is the 
>>legitimate Magyar language name today (and was long before Romania ever 
>>existed) as much as Cluj-Napoca is the legitimate Romanian language name. 
>
>I'd say Cluj is the legitimate Romanian language name.  Cluj-Napoca is an
>idiotic invention of Romania's late dictator.
>
>>New Amsterdam, used by English language speakers, was *officially* changed 
>>to New York by those English language speakers and to make any comparison 
>>with Kolozsvar/Cluj-Napoca is utterly idiotic. 
>
>Not quite.  The original poster wrote in English about a Romanian town
>whose English name (according to my Webster) is "Cluj".  Using its
>Hungarian name was about as silly as using the New Amsterdam name for
>New York.
>
>If the original message were written in Hungarian (and posted to s.c.m
>only) it would have been plain silly to use Cluj instead of Kolozsvar.
>But this was _not_ the case.

Rubbish! According to your argument Flemings shouldn't use their own
language in describing places Luik (Liege), Brussel (Bruxelles), Ieper
(Ypres,) or the French/Walloons mustn't use Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen)..or 
zillions of other examples...all these different language names of the 
same places are prolifically sign-posted all over NW Europe. Not so with
Hungarian names in Romania!! No way! I'm waiting for Romania to join the 
EU and will be extremely interested in seeing how Romanians react when 
Strasbourg human rights courts will try to FORCE them to face their own 
endemic hypocritical bigotry! 

Okay, let's call it Cluj (er, when I was there in '82 it was officially 
Cluj-Napoca, however nutty, for Romanian language speakers and Koloszvar 
for the Hungarian language speakers.) Webster doesn't prove anything...
it had to use a name of some sort to describe the place and the current 
*official* Romanian name as used by the Romanian administration/bureaucracy
is Cluj, fair enough; I don't mind calling it Cluj, when speaking directly 
to Romanians, but why should Mr Lutas (who so often tried to persuade me on 
these ngs that he is for harmonious Romanian-Hungarian co-existence in 
Transylvania) take someone to task for calling it Kolozsvar if that person's 
connection is with the Hungarian speakers there? Mr Lutas' indignation would 
be just as absurd as if a Walloon took a Fleming to task for calling 
Bruxelles *Brussel*!

Please remember that to Hungarian speakers it remains Kolozsvar and if any 
Romanian speaker is pissed off about that then they betray their bigotry 
and hateful nationalism. Just how much of a hypocrite is Mr Lutas (or 
yourself, for that matter)? BTW this thread is cross-posted to both scm 
and scr, and I'm posting in scm, so it's Kolozsvar, as far my family and
I am concerned. Do you have a problem with that?

The Kolozsvar/Cluj difference is one of currently used nomenclature by two
different ethnic groups there and very obviously doesn't bear the remotest 
comparison with the New Amsterdam/New York name change (unless, of course,
you desire to consign all long-standing indigenous NON-Romanian language
and culture in Kolozsvar/Cluj to the dustbin. Now I see where Funar gets 
his support from.)

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***
+ - (no subject) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

FELKESZULNI
               az EUROPAI UJRARENDEZES LEHETOSEGERE

     MAOSZ (Magyar Amerikaiak Orszagos Szovetsege) mint non profit
szervezet nem lobby-zhat. Viszont egy nagyon fontos jogi kulombseg
van a "lobby" es "tanacsadas" kozott. Mi nem penzert vagy anyagi
javak eleresere adunk tanacsot. Mi segiteni szeretnenk kidolgozni
egy tervet a Trianoni Bekediktatum es Helsinki Accord altal
okozott balkani zurzavar tisztazasara.  Abban kiemelni
szandekozunk azt a pontot, hogy milyen elonye lesz abbol
Amerikanak, ha a fentiekben emlitett hatarozatokat ujra ertekelik.

     A Helsinki Accord nemzetkozi jogilag megmerevitette a
Trianonban kituzott hatarainkat. Most mi nem azon akarunk
dolgozni, hogy a Helsinki-i Konferencia periodikus uleseinek
folyosojan, vagy egy masik epuletben tartott NGO uleseken
sirankozzunk, hanem megmagyarazni az USA vezetoinek, hogy a
Helsinki Accord mar megbukott. Tanulva a bosniai helyzetbol, most
uj "Accord"-ot kell eletre hozniuk, nehogy a terseg meg nagyobb es
veresebb haboruba keveredjen.

     Megkisereljuk megertetni az amerikai vezeto korokkel, akik
nem csak Washingtonban szekelnek, hogy de facto a Trianoni beke
hatarozatatai vagy a Helsinki Accord paragrafusai nem leteznek. De
jure azok is csak papiron vannak mar, de a Magyarokon kivul azt
senki be nem tartja.

     Trianonban letesitett Csehszlovakia es Jugoszlavia mar
megszunt. A Csehek szetvaltak a Szlovakoktol es mindegyik onallo
allam lett. A Jugoszlavok hat allama kozul csak ketto, Szerbia es
Montenegro kepezi Jugoszleviat. Az autonom Vojvodinat es Kosovot
pedig a Trianoni szerzodes megszegesevel beolvasztottak Szerbiaba.
A Moldvai kerdes is megoldasra var, es igy tovabb.

     A balkani konfliktus altal keletkezett katonai osszecsapas
mindket fel energia forrasanak kimerulese miatt tuzszunetet es nem
megbekelest eredmenyezett. A szerb lakossagot kivittek
Sarajevobol, hogy ne pusztuljanak el ha a szerbek elinditjak
tavaszi offenzivajukat. A tomeggyilkossagok miatt eloallott
gyulolet mindket oldalon olyan nagy, hogy azt egz Dayton-i
egyezmeny nem tudja megmasitani.

     A balkani verengzesek atterjedhetnek a Jugoszlaviat kornyezo
allamokra.  Ezert jo lenne ha az amerikai kormany a nyugateuropai
vezetokkel, az amerikai elnokvalasztas utan, osszehozna egy kozep-
kelet es delkelet europai ujjarendezesi targyalast.

     Ezt elrni pedig nagy felvilagosito munkara van szukseg.
Konyvek ezen nem segitenek, arra idejuk nincsen, hogy azt
elovassak. Az amerikai eszjaras nem hosszu ertekezesre van
beallitva, hanem slogan-okra. Az O.J.Simpson targyalas eseteben is
a vedo ugyvedek kidobtak egy jol hangzo mondatot If not fit, quit.
Ezt arra epitettek, hogy a keztyu nem ment O.J.Simpson kezere. Ez
maradt meg a jury agyaban es not guilty dontest hoztak.

     Az egesz amerikai gazdasagot vezerszavakra epitettek.
Peldaul: K-Mart is the saving place,   Quality plus Ford, New
improved, stb. Egyik sem igaz de a nep agyaban mint indito ero
megmarad. Hosszu technikai vagy tortenelmi leirast senki el nem
olvas, ha el is olvasna nem biztos, hogy megerti.

     Ezert mi most azon gondolkozunk, hogy olyan vezerszavakat
dogozzunk ki, melyek megmaradnak az amerikai politikusok agyaban.
Evvel segithetjuk a fent emlitett hatarozatok altal okozott
konfliktus tovabbterjedesenek megakadalyozasara javasolt csucs
talalkozo osszehivasat.

     Velemenyunk szerint ha lehet selejtet arulni, vagy gyilkost
felmenteni vezerszavakkal, akkor az igazsagot es beket is lehet
vele szolgalni. Ezert kerunk minden Magyart, hogy kuldjon nekunk
olyan vezerszavakat amit felhasznalhatunk ebben a Szulohazank es
Amerika erdekeben tett igen fontos munkaban. A kuldendo javaslatok
terjedjenek ki arra is, hogy mi haszna lesz Amerikanak abban, ha a
Balkan es Karpatmedence tersegeben ujrarendezest szorgalmaz.

     Kerjuk a javaslatokat a kovetkezo cimre kuldeni:
                                      Dr. lengyel Alfonz
                                 1522 Schoolhouse Road
                                 Ambler. PA 19002
     Vagy EMAIL: 

     Koszonettel: a MAOSZ ELNOKSEGE


____
Attila Haverland  

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS