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           * Serving the Network Community Since 1980 *
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about taxes: if you are in the top scale, you can
afford a few accountants and tax-specialists to tell you
how to avoid it altogether... Check it out: the income
of the state from income-tax is 90% or more from
those, whos money is taxed as they earn.
Just to put right an other fallacy: most state benefits
are paid out to corprate business, not to social wellfare.
I have no data , but you are free to prove me wrong.
(I've seen supporting statistics on TV)

> From :
> Hardly the reasoned, sober style we have come to expect from Andra1s Kornai.
I'm sorry but I see no contradictions. Since E1va Balogh is more specific in
saying (I think) the same thing you are saying, namely that I'm inconsistent,
let me try to respond to her, and we can take it from there...

> Felado : Eva S. Balogh
> I think Andras and I have made some progress on the question of Bardossy.
> Andras admits that he treated Bardossy ahistorically, allegedly because he
> held high political office.
I agree we made progress, but I think you overstated what I said. I didn't
treat him ahistorically, I just held (and continue to hold) him to a high
standard. That such high standards are not ahistoric is clear e.g. from
Bajcsi-Zsilinszky's contemporary critique of Ba1rdossy, or from the fact that
Ka1llay did start legal action to punish those responsible for the Ba1cska
massacres.

> He also admits that Bardossy was not directly
> responsible for Kamenets-Podolsk or for Novi Sad. I was surprised to learn
> that he is against the death sentence--in general at least--but wishes "good
> riddance" only to Gombos, Teleki, Bardossy, and the like and "good riddance"
> to me meant sending them to the nether world.
It seems you are still assuming that I'm interested in creating an ex post
facto justification for his death sentence. I am not. He is dead, has been
dead a long time, so I have no wishes concerning him.

> I thought that one of our cherished democratic ideals is
> equality before the law. Therefore, I find it very difficult to swallow that
> certain people should receive different sentences for the very same crimes.
Same crime as what? The magnitude of the crime is commensurate with the damage
caused.  If the captain of a recreational sailboat is drunk and lets his boat
get slightly cracked on some coastal rocks maybe he'll get barred from sailing
but that's about the maximum sentence he can expect. If the captain of the
Exxon Valdez does the same, the punishment is very different. If you are
smoking pot and get caught the result is probably a civil fine. If you commit
the "same" crime while commanding troops you probably get court-martialed and
thrown into some very unpleasant military prison for a long long time.

> Second, although Andras admits that he treated Bardossy the person
> ahistorically
No I didn't, sorry.

> Since Andras likes to bring up past discussions,
No, that's another Andra1s...

> discussion on this list more than a year ago. At that point I tried to
> explain to some people on the list that the Hungarian governments, let's say,
> between 1937 and March 1944 were conservative, but they were not, by and
> large, composed of extreme right-wingers while the population, under the
> influence of German successes, moved further and further to the right.
(...)
> But may I remind you Andras, that a year ago when I first broached this
> subject, you and quite a few others on this list considered me an absolute
> heretic for saying the very same thing.
Quite a few others but not me. I actually agreed with you at the time on that
particular point.

> And surely not "playing the game at least
> half-heartedly" would have resulted in one of these or similar scenarios.
Well, Ka1llay managed to do it half-heartedly, right after Ba1rdossy, so again
there is nothing ahistoric in assuming that a less wholeheartedly pro-German
policy than Ba1rdossy's was not a realistic option.

> So, in conclusion, would you have preferred a brave political stance, if that
> was possible, to the cowardly cat-and-mouse game played by many Hungarian
> governments? Surely, in this case, we could all keep our heads high and
> remind the world that we Hungarians didn't submit to German pressure. In that
> case, we would not have to apologize to the world for Hungary being the "last
> satellite of Nazi Germany." But what I would like to ask you is the
> following: would you have been also willing to pay the price?

It's unclear what the price would have been. As it was, the price was quite
terrible. In life: hundreds of thousands were killed. In territory: Hungary
lost all chances for regaining any former parts. In property: the country was
devastated. In politics: Hungary lost all independence to the Soviets for 40+
years. So even if we forget about keeping our heads high (though the the moral
effects of nazism shouldn't be entirely overlooked), just as a practical
matter, a few lean years during the war would have served the country better in
the long run, wouldn't you agree? If I recall your position in earlier debates
correctly, you also think that once the US entered the war no sane person could
doubt the outcome. Let's say for the sake of the argument that it was a tossup
before (which I don't think it was, but let's leave that alone), but at least
after the US entry it was the moral duty of every leader in Hungary to
extricate their country from the conflict. Ba1rdossy failed to do so.

Once again, this has nothing to do with his actual trial and sentence. What we
are talking about is "the judgement of history". A stunt pilot is entitled to
relying on his personal sense of speed, distance, and altitude, since he is
risking only himself. But suppose you find the captain of a passanger jet alive
after an accident that killed nearly 10% of the people, ruined the plane, and
landed the survivors in hostile territory. Would you also say, well, you can't
fault him for relying on his personal sense of speed, distance, and altitude?

Andra1s Kornai

>
> Received: from mailhost.mcc.ac.uk by mailhost.mcc.ac.uk
>           id >; Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:05:24 +0000
> Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Tell them "NO!" (fwd)
> To: 
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:05:12 +0100 (MET)
> X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Length: 12389
> From: Eva Durant >
> Sender: 
>
> Forwarded message:
> > Delivery-Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:12:45 +0000
> > From: S DURANT >
> > Organization: Queen Mary and Westfield College
> > To: 
> > Date: Tue, 5 Dec 1995 21:15:20 GMT0BST
> > Subject: (Fwd) (Fwd) (Fwd) Tell them "NO!" (fwd)
> > Return-receipt-to: S DURANT >
> > Priority: normal
> > X-mailer: Pegasus Mail/Windows (v1.22)
> > Message-ID: >
> >
> > Szia Anyu, ird ala, en mar egy masikat alairtam. xxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> > ********************************Please sign this***************************
> > Will you support this petition to get the French nuclear tests stopped?
> >
> > Just add your name to the end of this numbered list and forward on
> > to as many people as possible.
> >
> >   1 SHIMIZU Seishi      Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   2 Yuichi Nishihara    Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   3 Hirohisa TANIGUCHI  Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   4 Takashi Tomoeda     Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   5 Tomoki KOBAYASHI    Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   6 Munehito ARAI       Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   7 Akira Okazaki       Physics,University of Tokyo,Japan
> >   8 Atsushi Matsumura   Physics, Tohoku University, Japan
> >   9 Kouta Yamamoto      Chemistry,Tohoku University,Japan
> >  10 Yasushi UJIOKA      Degremont S.A., France
> >  11 Toru Hara           Universite de Paris Sud, France
> >  12 Rene Bakker         CEA - Sacley, France
> >  13 David Garzella      Universite de Paris Sud, France
> >  14 Henk Blok           Vrije Universiteit/NIKHEF, Amsterdam
> >  15 Igor Passchier      NIKHEF, Amsterdam
> >  16 Ard van Sighem      NIKHEF, Amsterdam
> >  17 Johan Noordhoek     KOL Leiden
> >  18 C.M.C.M. van Woerkens Kamerlingh Onnes Laboratory, Leiden
> >  19 Annemarie Borst,    Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
> >  20 Gijs Nelemans       Universiteit Utrecht
> >  21 Susanne Buiter      Universiteit Utrecht
> >  22 Yvo Kok             Paleomagnetic Lab., Utrecht
> >  23 Thom Pick           Paleomagnetic Lab., Utrecht University
> >  24 Dagmar Olbertz      Universiteit Utrecht
> >  25 Eleonore Stutzmann  Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris, France
> >  26 Nicole Girardin     Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris, France
> >  27 Francois Girardin   Ecole Nat. Sup. des Telecommunications, France
> >  28 J.-P. Chaboureau    Lab. Meteorologie Dynamique, France
> >  29 F. CHERUY           Lab. Meteorologie Dynamique, France
> >  30 G.L.Liberti         Lab. Modelisation climat et environnement, CEA,
 France
> >  31 David Stephenson    Centre Europeen de Recherche et Formation Avancee e
n
> >                          Calcul Scientifique, Toulouse, France
> >  32 Dr. Ralph P. Sobek  Centre Europeen de Recherche et Formation Avancee e
n
> >                          Calcul Scientifique, Toulouse, France
> >  33 Marc Vaisset        LAAS, Toulouse, France
> >  34 Jerome Perret       LAAS, Toulouse, France
> >  35 Michael Kaiser      Comp.Sci./Robotics, University of Karlsruhe, German
y
> >  36 Volker Klingspor    Universitaet Dortmund, Germany
> >  37 Peer Kuchenmeister  Universitaet Bonn, Germany
> >  38 Carsten Dorgerloh   Universitaet Bonn, Germany
> >  39 Andrea Kuth         GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  40 Guido Pfeiffer      GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  41 Christoph Dahmen    GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  42 Dr. Holger Veit     GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  43 Dr. Gernot Richter  GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  44 Manfred Domke       GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  45 Josef Boerding      GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  46 Dr. Werner Emde     GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  47 Edgar Sommer        GMD Sankt Augustin, Germany
> >  48 Hans Guesgen        University of Auckland, New Zealand
> >  49 Julian Harris       University of Auckland, New Zealand
> >  50 Barry Fenn          University of Auckland, New Zealand
> >  51 Mary Gardner        University of Otago, New Zealand
> >  52 Roger Booth         University of Auckland, New Zealand
> >  53 Kevin Ashbridge     University of Tuebingen, Germany
> >  54 Peter L. Nelson     Psychology, West Georgia College, U.S.A.
> >  55 Nadine Levick       Emergency Medicine, Melbourne, Australia
> >  56 Michael Harari      Pediatrician, Jerusalem, Israel
> >  57 Mike South          Paediatrician, Melbourne, Australia
> >  58 Ourania Horaitis    Molecular Biologist Melbourne, Australia
> >  59 Jim Stamatopoulos   Telstra, Australia
> >  60 Arthur Iliakopoulos Telstra, Australia
> >  61 Joe Giunta          Telstra, Australia
> >  62 Tony Milic          Telstra, Australia
> >  63 Mark Whitmore       Tesltra,Australia
> >  64 Andrew Mooren       Tesltra, Australia
> >  65 Andrea Milne        Telstra, Australia
> >  66 Janice Barry        Telstra Australia
> >  67 Lindsay McGuire     Telstra, Australia
> >  68 Ken Dadsey          Telstra Australia
> >  69 Jan Gibson          Telstra Australia
> >  70 Stuart Riley        Telstra Australia
> >  71 Ben Johnston        Melbourne, Australia
> >  72 Manuel Tito de Morais Ericsson Telecom, Sweden
> >  73 Lars Ervik          Ericsson Radio, Sweden
> >  74 Roger Borjesson     Ericsson Telecom, Australia
> >  75 Ted Strzebonski     Ericsson Australia
> >  76 Mariola Strzebonski Ericsson Australia
> >  77 Ralph Ward          Ericsson Australia
> >  78 Ana Pipunic         Ericsson Australia
> >  79 Lilly Pejic         Ericsson Australia
> >  80 Les Grigg           Ericsson Australia
> >  81 June Campbell       Ericsson Australia
> >  82 Sihem Imamhousein   Ericsson Australia
> >  83 B.Przybyszewska     Ericsson Australia
> >  84 Joe Milic           Ericsson Australia
> >  85 Wei Xiao            Ericsson Australia
> >  86 Marlene Verey       Ericsson Australia
> >  87 Dan Lambert         Ericsson Australia
> >  88 Melissa Bartolo     Ericsson Australia
> >  89 Rachel Robinson     Ericsson Australia
> >  90 Maria Fernandez     Ericsson Australia
> >  91 Gabriel Accadia     Ericsson Data Australia, Australia
> >  93 Andrea Parker Halford Victoria University of Technology, Australia
> >  94 Martin Halford      BHP Information Technology, Australia
> >  95 Helen Robertson-Smith BHP IT, Australia
> >  96 Rohan Smith         Scirtcele Electrics, Australia
> >  97 Loreta Siciarz      Melbourne, Australia
> >  98 Edward Siciarz      Melbourne, Australia
> >  99 Newman Adam         Melbourne, Australia
> > 100 Docking Luke        Melbourne, Australia
> > 101 Steve Mellor        Melbourne Australia
> > 102 Megan Feakes        BHP Transport, Australia
> > 103 Dianne Bayley       BHP Transport, Australia
> > 104 Snez Dangubic       BHP Transport, Australia
> > 105 Irma Ivcovici       BHP Transport, Australia
> > 106 Carmen Brand        BHP Transport, Australia
> > 107 Tara Blake          BHP Power, Australia
> > 108 Celia Dunlop        BHP Engineering, Australia
> > 109 Ian Kearney         BHP Petroleum, Australia
> > 110 Cathy Smyth         BHP Petroleum, Australia
> > 111 Trish Pletta        BHP Petroleum, Australia
> > 112 Bronwyn Rossi       BHP Petroleum, Australia
> > 113 Deborah Lewis       Melbourne, Australia
> > 114 Suellen Quin
> > 115 Vito Vukasin
> > 116 John Garside        BHP Engineering, Wollongong
> > 117 Anita McKinley      BHP Engineering, Newcastle
> > 118 Elisa Buttrose      BHP Engineering, North Sydney, Australia
> > 119 Victoria Fisher     BHP Engineering, North Sydney, Australia
> > 120 Youssef Mourra      BHP Engineering, North Sydney, Australia
> > 121 Linda McDermott     BHP Engineering, North Sydney, Australia
> > 122 Rozanne Frost       BHP Engineering, NthSydney,Australia
> > 123 Maria Ivancic       BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, Australia
> > 124 Anne Regan          BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, Australia
> > 125 Vince Stanton       BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, Australia
> > 126 Barry Prasil        BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, Australia
> > 127 Peter Ingram        BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, Australia
> > 128 Ian Leeson          BHP Information Technology, Newcastle, Australia
> > 129 Arnie Anfinson      Peace Activist, Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
> > 130 Laura Risk          Student, Berkeley, CA USA
> > 131 Luke Weisman        Student, Caltech, CA USA
> > 132 Renee Sharp         Student, Rice University, TX USA
> > 133 Megan Moir          Student, Rice University, Texas, USA
> > 134 Allison Fine        Student, Rice University, Texas, USA
> >                          and Student, Hebrew University, Jerusalem, ISRAEL
> > 135 Amy Mecozzi         Student, Southern Methodist University, Texas, USA
> > 136 Johanna Novales     Student, Southern Methodist University, Texas, USA
> > 137 jeremy rueter       person, Austin,Texas,USA
> > 138 Vince Lightbourn    student, St. Edward's University, USA
> > 139 Harry Tajchman      stident, St. Edward's University,USA
> > 140 Jeff Thomann        art student, NMSU, Missouri, USA
> > 141 Thomas Doherty      Boston College
> > 142 Elysha Fiabane      Boston College
> > 143 Katherine Papastephanou,Duke University
> > 144 Jennifer Lawinski   Dartmouth College
> > 145 Angelos Kottas      student, Harvard University, USA
> > 146 Julie Y. Park       student, Harvard University, USA
> > 147 Josh Simon          physics, Stanford University, USA
> > 148 Nik Kaestner        Biology, Stanford University, California
> > 149 Kevin Wooley        student, Stanford University, California, USA
> > 150 Darcy Gordon        student, Stanford University, California, USA
> > 151 Stephenie Cowell    student, University of California, San Diego, USA
> > 152 Kelvin Shing        student, University of Colorado, Boulder, USA
> > 153 Katherine Vogele    student, Northwestern University, Illinois, USA
> > 154 Simon Gerovich      student, Harvard University, MA, USA
> > 155 Formosa Chen        student, Harvard University, MA, USA
> > 156 Annie Hsieh         student, Syracuse University, NY, USA
> > 157 Paul Wu             student, Cornell University, NY, USA
> > 158 Radiah Donald       student, Amherst College, MA, USA
> > 160  Liz Godwin         student, Physics, Amherst College, MA, USA
> > 161  Russell Agdern     student, School of Industrial and Labor Relations,
> >                          Cornell University, NY, USA
> > 162. Roman Koshykar     student, Environmental Sciences, Cornell University
,
> >                      NY, USA
> > 163. David Harding      student, Princeton University, USA
> > 164. Joanna C. Yu       student, Princeton University, USA
> > 165. Mari Mitchell      student, Baylor University, TX, USA
> > 166. Marianne Swann     student, Baylor University, USA
> > 167. Elyssa McIntyre    student, Macalester College, MN, USA
> > 168. Hannah Meehan      student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA,
 USA
> > 169. Shawdee Eshghi     student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA,
 USA
> > 170. Nicole Leifer      student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA,
 USA
> > 171. John Baggaley      student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA,
 USA
> > 172. Stallion Yang  student, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA, USA
> > 173. Joseph Shu             student, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, U
S
 A
> > 174. Grace Han          student, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, USA
> > 175. Christine Chu      student, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, USA
> > 176. Amanda Leins   student, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, USA
> > 178. David Doezema      student, University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, USA
> > 179. Christina Keating  student, Mount Holyoke College at S.Hadley, MA USA
> > 180. Uma Pinninti   student, Mount Holyoke College, MA USA
> > 181. Kristin Dobinson  student, Queen Mary and Westfield College,
> >         London, UK
> > 182. Joshua Peck, student, QMW, University of London, UK
> > 183. Natasha Pattison, student, QMW, University of London, UK
> > 184. Eva Durant, UMIST, Manchester, UK
> > This is a petition to urge the French Government to stop nuclear tests.
> > If you agree with us, please add your name to the list above, and send
> > copies to your friends.
> >
> > We will add up the lists that had come back to us, and send
> > it to the French Government.
> >
> > If you happen to be the hundredth,two hundredth, three
> > hundredth, and so on, on the list, please send a copy of the mail back to
> > the addresses below, so that  we can keep track of this project.
> >
> > If you have any comment please send mails to us.  And also, if you are
> > multi-lingual and have friends who may not understand English, please
> > translate this message and add it to the end of the mail.
> > Thank you very much.
> >  ******* addresses of the organizers:
> > shimizu\femto.phys.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp
> > keshi\uticeaix1.icepp.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp <- please use this address
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> ------------------------------ End of forwarded message 1

Gerry Collins and others in this debate should not uncritically accept the
assertion by siliconvalley.com that Iva1n Peto3's father was "KGB".  Peto3
said in an interview in HVG when this subject first came up in the
infamous pamphlet "Apa1k e1s fiu1k" [Fathers and sons] that his father was
drafted into a border guard unit (the border guards were formally part of
interior security). If true, this is quite an innocent thing, as the draft
was mandatory, and one didn't have a choice about which unit one gets into.

The accusers could never substantiate the allegation that he was a secret
policeman, and it seems that the majority of similar accusations (ranging
from E1va Ka1llay's daughter to Ga1bor Fodor's homosexuality) failed to
generate the anger they were supposed to.  In fact, their tone was so mean
that in the end even the valid accusations (such as Horn's role as a
padded coat) ended up generating sympathy for the accused.

As to the substantive issue, it is actually true of another major SZDSZ
politician that his father was a secret policeman of the worst kind. I imagine
this is a heavy burden to carry, and I will not judge the son by the father.
That such judgement is at any rate impossible is shown by the cases of X and Y,
both well-known public figures, both of whose fathers were well-known nazis.
X is a rabid antisemite, Y is a distinguished debunker of "us/them" history.

Andra1s Kornai

>
>
> That's just the point.  Taxation should not be there in order to avenge
> people for the sin of being rich.  The purpose of taxation is to raise
> revenues.  If the tax is too high, people will avoid or evade it.  The
> rich are most adept at doing this.
>

Why do you apply different rules to the rich? In this case,
all tax should be lowered, especially the poorests, so that
they are happier to pay...  As it is, they pay most, as the
percentage National insurance and VAT hits them same as the
rich, but end up being much higher percentage of their expenditure.
Its like, you have to pay more and more to top managers/directors/
MPs otherwise you"don't attract the right people"  but you have to
pay less and less to everyone else (the phrase was exactly
the same in Hungary, like if they had direct prompt from Thatcher)
"you have to tighten your belts, we are spending too much",
"suffer for your country just this year"  - why these sacrifices
cannot be applied for our genius captains of the economy?
as someone rightly pointed out: they are making the rules.


>
>
> OOPS.  Well, what I said is true anyway (I don't make comments to support
> people, but ideas.)  The essence is, modern welfare states are suffering
> as well, but to a much smaller degree.  The greater the state
> involvement, the more mistakes tend to be made, and the greater the final
> adjustment crisis.  Post socialist countries are a witness to this.
>
> jim
>
>

So in the classical free market economy there were no mistakes
at all...   Child labour, starvation, total bondage of the workers
etc, etc are ok for you?

>
> Arguments about progressive taxation of the rich are driven by concepts of
> social fairness.  Arguments about fixing up socio-economic problems by taxing
> the rich more are driven by ignorance and demagoguery.
>

I haven't read any such suggestion yet on this list. I think
you cannot solve the socio-economic problems by taxation or by
cutting state expenditure.  They are something to do with the
system that causes them.

>
> No, you cannot.  Only if you expropriate the assets (not merely the income)
> of a large section of society can you get near.  However, in a liberal
> democracy such expropriation is not on.
>

You reckon? What about the privatisation/wasting of national assets,
as it has been done in the UK? It didn't do much improvement
with the indebtedness, or with living standards... Hungary, watch out!
Other expropriations happened quite legally: look at the number
of homeless people in the seventies and now in the UK.
If house-loan interests grow in Hungary - as the govt. is
pressurised to allow - you'll see even more homeless people
in HUngary, too.   But hey-ho someone has to pay the price,
why worry?

>
> Joe Szalai wrote:
> > It matters little if the top tax bracket for the wealthy is 5% or 110%.  Th
e
> > point is they don't pay.  Do you know of any wealthy person who pays tax?
>
> Now, such demagoguery is what I meant in previous posts.  If you had said tha
t
> they pay less tax than you think they should, that is your prerogative.
> However, the above statement is demonstrably wrong and it is used in a rabble
-
> rousing manner.  As I said, you do a pretty good job of pigeonholing yourself
.
>
> > If they do, they wouldn't be rich for long.
>
> That only worked in Sweden, with a 90% top tax bracket a few years ago.
> Small wonder even they reversed such heavy taxation.
>
> George Antony


You are being obusive, inspite the fact, that there is a lot of truth
in the suggestion: in the UK a staggering amount of tax goes un-
collected (not including legal tax-heavens here), but the
number of specialised tax fraud investigators are miniscule to compare
with the number of burocrats hunting benefit fraud, even though
the loss from that is a few millions of pounds, whilst tax-evasion
runs into the thousand-millions.
 (proudly from the pigeonhole)

Members of the Magyar Barati Kozosseg (Itt-Ott) have initiated quite a 
forceful campaign for the defense of Hungarian national communities under 
attack by
the surrounding semi-totalitarian governments. Several chain-fax-requests 
went 
around the globe in different directions (aiming Hungarians in Latin 
America, Australia and Europe) -  using the"snowball effect" - resulting in 
 many idividual faxes - asking the Slovak Prsident not to sign the muzzle 
law. As we all know, Hungarian efforts were not succesful in the first 
round. The law was signed by the President. In today's New York Times, on 
the editorial page the letter of our friend, dr. Peter Kovalszki is 
published on the matter. Its language is to the point, straightforward and 
strong as it should be::
"I have followed the debate in your pages on the new language law in 
Slovakia, and I find repulsive any such restriction that limits the free 
use of Spanish in the United States or of Hungarian or any other language 
in Slovakia. I find deceptive  the Slovak ambassador's  Nov.27 letter, 
which conceals that this law represents a tool to be used by Slovak 
authorities by whim. Now that the law has been signed by Slovakia's 
President, I suggest that your correspondents monitor its enactment.This 
will be the acid test of the Slovak Government's intentions.  - Peter 
Kovalszki, Detroit, Nov 28 "
Be ready for the next move.

Dear Colleauges,

The New York Times received over 100 letters, some from overseas, replying to
the Ambassador of Slovakia. This was a tremendous response. Thank you very
much, if you wrote one of them.

This morning they have published the letter of Peter Kovalszki, who wrote:
"...I find deceptive the Slovak ambassador's Nov. 27 letter, which conceals
that this law represents a tool to be used by Slovak authorities at whim. Now
that the law has been signed by Slovakia's President, I suggest that your
correspondents monitor its enactment..."

I would like to thank Mr. Kovalszki, - who has played a leading role in every
HL project to date - for his wise words. I would like to ask all of you to do
three things:
      1) Let us know of any SPECIFIC CASE (name, date, location) where the
human/cultural rights or freedoms are curtailed of any group or person
(Hungarian, Jewish, Roma or any other) based on this law.
      2) As the law regulating the language use of "ethnic minorities" is YET
TO BE ENACTED and is now only under preparation, pass on any news in that
connection to us, the members of HL. If you need E-mail or fax addresses for
your state, I will be glad to send them to you. If you also want the address
of your Congressman, please also give me your district number, as some states
have over 20 districts.
      3) Advise your local representatives and newspapers of both the Slovak
and the Romanian actions effecting the cultural group rights of minorities.

In addition to thanking Peter Kovalszki I would also like to thank Peter
Kaslik of Canada for establishing the Hungarian Human Rights Monitor (HHRM)
and by posting news of human rights violations effecting Hungarians on the
Internet.

In connection with the G.I.'s in Hungary, I received an E-mail from the
Washington Post, asking additional questions concerning the text I wrote.
This interest suggests to me, that the press is ready to report on this
subject and therefore I would like to urge you to write about the towns and
their people,  whom the G.I.'s will meet, to your local papers.

If you or your friends/relatives would like to take part in the work of the
Hungarian Lobby, please send me your/their E-mail addresses. Starting next
year, we will have a separate listing, which will cover HL business only. All
who sign up by the end of the year, will automatically be included. After the
first of January, new participants can sign up by sending an E-mail to:
  and writing in the body test: subscribe HL.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Darren Purcell wrote:

>Joe, I didn't think I would be agreeing with you so often!!! :-)
>
>I like capitalism but it has many faults, and Doepp ur's statement misses
>the point that throughout history people have lived in systems thatwere
>not always fair, and those who were benefiting were sometimes smart
>enough to realize this. Of course, he is an economist and so few of them
>consider anything but pareto-optimal curves (which support free markets)
>and supply-demand (another idea to support capitalism), so take that
>context in to account when he makes statements like that. I mean, he
>might be
>an AMerican professor and probably has not had to live on less than $10K
>a  year for while ;-)

Darren, I figured you'd eventually jump into bed with me.  I don't mind at
all!  I just wanted to be sure that we were campatible.  ;-))  And if we get
into any more spats, just consider it part of the territory.  Now, if only
James in Miskolc would come around.

Joe Szalai

Eva S. Balogh wrote:

: I think Andras and I have made some progress...

I once again shamelessly steal from Paul Fussell to suggest that your
disagreement (in this case, anyway) is perhaps "...one between sensibilities.
I'd designate them as, on the one hand, the ironic and ambiguous (or even the
tragic, if you like), and, on the other, the certain.  The one complicates
problems, leaving them messier than before and making you feel terrible.  The
other solves problems and cleans up the place, making you feel tidy and
satisfied.  I'd call the one literary-artistic-historical; I'd call the other
the social-scientific-political.  To expect them to agree, or even to perceive
the same data, would be expecting too much."


--Greg Grose

What about this idea as a new form of tax - of course abolishing all
other forms of tax on your income:

        You must spend X% (about 80% I would think but I haven`t put much
thought into it yet) of your yearly (whta is now gross) income. If you don`t
spend all of it,the rest of the X% will be collected as revenue.

        O.K., this will be difficult to implement and run - everyone`s finances
w
 ill
 have to be audited and you will have to keep receipts for everything you
buy. But it will incourage investment in the country (only, say, 20% of the
80% could be invested abroad). What do you think?


        And about the current system where the mega rich move their money
around the world or, if they run a company, say that they are earning their
money at a foreign branch of their company or whatever: if you live in Jersey
but earn your money from a company in Britain, for example, you will have to pa
y
 the higher rate to the country with the higher rate. O.K., problems -
countries could increase their higher earners income tax rates just to beat
  "competitors" into getting themoney of the rich. But as must very rich
people live (or have their money) in a country where the income tax is very
low or none existent, this should not be a major problem - but I could be
wrong!



Karcsi

Haliho,

I was watching C-SPAN last night and there was a Pentagon Briefing on Bosnia.
Lt. Gen. Howell Estes (USAF) was explaining about where the US "enabling
forces" are headed. They had maps set up showing where the GI's are headed. You
could barely see the cities, but it looked like the troops where heading to
Romania, instead of Hungary. I got up off the couch and looked at the screen
and noticed that Budapest was somewhere that Marosvasarhely would be. Kaposvar
was where Kolozsvar would be and Taszar was where Arad would be. Who do they
have working in the Pentagon, anyway?? Darren Purcell (our Hungary-List
in-house geography expert and defender of non-Hungarian speakers who go to
Hungary and get charged double for drinks. :-) ) would of enjoyed this. I
wonder if they know where Hungary is?? Or is there a special Top-Secret force,
we don't know about, coming in from Romania?? Or is the Pentagon enept??
Seriously, is there anyway that we can notify the Pentagon about this,
embarassing, mistake???

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi Bacsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

>
> Haliho,
>
> I was watching C-SPAN last night and there was a Pentagon Briefing on Bosnia.
> Lt. Gen. Howell Estes (USAF) was explaining about where the US "enabling
> forces" are headed. They had maps set up showing where the GI's are headed.
 You
> could barely see the cities, but it looked like the troops where heading to
> Romania, instead of Hungary. I got up off the couch and looked at the screen
> and noticed that Budapest was somewhere that Marosvasarhely would be. Kaposva
r
> was where Kolozsvar would be and Taszar was where Arad would be. Who do they
> have working in the Pentagon, anyway?? Darren Purcell (our Hungary-List
> in-house geography expert and defender of non-Hungarian speakers who go to
> Hungary and get charged double for drinks. :-) ) would of enjoyed this. I
> wonder if they know where Hungary is?? Or is there a special Top-Secret force
,
> we don't know about, coming in from Romania?? Or is the Pentagon enept??
> Seriously, is there anyway that we can notify the Pentagon about this,
> embarassing, mistake???
>
> Udv.,
> Czifra Jancsi Bacsi
> john_czifra @ shi.com
>

That is a surprise to me, since the CIA atlas on Eastern Europe is fairly
well done, if dated. Oh well, Budapest, Bucharest, all the same to the
CIA/Army right? Just kidding...I just hope they end up in the right
country. I will look for the C-span rerun of that briefing just to take a
look

Thanks for the post, Darren

>
> On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:
>
> > context in to account when he makes statements like that. I mean, he
> > might be
> > an AMerican professor
>
> assistent professor
>
> and probably has not had to live on less than $10K > a year for while ;-)
>
>
> >
> I can count on one hand the years I have earned more than 10,000 usd.
> (actually, 1987-1990).  My present salary, if you wish to know, is 25,000
> HUF per month (= US$ 185).  There is a common misunderstanding about
> economists, that they believe that since everybody is a utility
> maximisor, he must therefore wish to maximise his own income.  I deny
> that.  I also live it.  There are other goals to my life than to earn
> money.  I would not be teaching in Hungary if it were not so.  Service to
> a community provides a different type of satisfaction that cannot be
> counted in monetary terms.  Some think they can derive more satisfaction
> from making money.  I say, let them.  But please do not consider me a
> materialist in any sense of the word.

I stand corrected, as I assumed you were older. I notice that in my
department, when trying to lobby for a $50 a month increase in stipend,
some people forget after a while. I also don't want to spread the myth that
all of the economists of the world are efficency - utility driven solely. I did
 read
the quote below. It is a good one and apropro. The original post to you
via Szalai was to acknowledge that there are those of us
who realize the problems of capitalism and yet know very well that we
have benefitted from the staring place we were in. If I were the son of a
farmer in Kentucky and not a chemical engineer, I would say I might not
even have access to this internet, or be working on a doctorate. Just an
assumption though.

SZia, Darren

Bravo Eva (Balogh)!  I believe you have said it all.  But, despite your lucid
and convincing arguments on the subject, Andras may still disagree.  He seems
to disapprove of Hungarians not having themselves massacred in even greater
numbers by the Germans in 1944 and by the Russians in 1956.

Ferenc Novak

Andras Kornai wrote:

: But suppose you find the captain of a passanger jet alive
: after an accident that killed nearly 10% of the people, ruined the plane, and
: landed the survivors in hostile territory. Would you also say, well, you can'
t
: fault him for relying on his personal sense of speed, distance, and altitude?

Since leaders have neither automatic pilots, nor ground controllers, I'm not
sure what to make of this analogy.


--Greg Grose

Sam Stowe soberly wrote:

>Trust me -- when it comes to beer, you won't have to worry about our
>soldiers turning up their noses at any Magyar brand. Taste is not a
>factor.
>
>Sam Stowe

You got that right!  Taste is not a factor.  How could it be.  I always
thought that American beer tastes like butterfly pee, or rather, what I
think butterfly pee would taste like.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>I don't mean to sound gloomy.  (Unlike many Hungarians, I'm an optimist.)
>However, has any world empire, such as the USSR, ever collapsed with a
>whimper?
>
>

Joe, do the Ottoman Empire and the Byzantine Empire count in your opinion?
In both cases, the empires in question were in an extremely attenuated
condition at the time of their respective collapses. Sure, the Turks
seized and sacked Constantinople in 1454. But the empire had already been
on the ropes for several centuries at that point and by the time the Turks
grabbed it, the empire pretty much consisted of the region around
Constantinople. How about the Mongol Empire? Poised on the brink of
capturing all of Europe in the 1240s, it evaporated back into the steppes
almost overnight once Genghiz Khan died. Or the Spanish Empire in the New
World? By the time the Americans seized Cuba and the Phillipines in 1898,
Spain's other possessions in the New World had slipped quietly out of its
grasp during the preceding 80 years.

I guess you could make the argument that none of these was a "world
empire" capable of major military force projections on a truly global
scale. But from what we've learned about the Soviet Russian military since
1989, I'm not sure even the Russians would have qualified as a world
empire on those grounds. Afghanistan sure wasn't a ringing endorsement of
their military might on a world stage.

What I'm still trying to figure out is how much of the rise and fall of
such empires depends on economics and how much depends on other social,
cultural and psychological factors. After all, the idea of empire appears
to imply complete hegemony, which would give such a political entity the
ability to organize economically and socially in a way to ensure its
continued existence into the future. That doesn't happen, if the history
of any of the above empires is any indication.

But strangely enough, it's the democracies like Britain, the U.S., Canada,
Switzerland, et. al. that appear to have had some real staying power over
the past two or three centuries. Look how the societies in each of those
countries has managed the agonizing transition from being agrarian and
rural in nature to urban and industrialized. And, unlike the tendency of
the Republican Party ideologues in the U.S., you have to avoid confusing
democracy with capitalism. Democracy at least offers some degree of
political control against the worst excesses of capitalism. Fascism and
Marxism-Leninism have simply facilitated the process of handing over the
henhouse keys to the fox every time they've been put into practice.

Hungarians need to think very long and hard before turning to either
totalitarian extreme for any kind of "national salvation". I think the
advice my father gave me about carnival barkers and used car salesmen
would probably be useful for Magyars to remember when dealing with these
ideologues who have all the easy answers -- put your hand on your wallet,
back away from them slowly and never make eye contact!

Sam Stowe

"One sizzling love tip"? Dear God Almighty!...

Sam Stowe

Eva Durant wrote:

>George Antony wrote:
> > Hungary went backwards in its relative position in Europe, considering
> > economic development and living standards, during its period of "socialism"
.
> > Now even Greece and Portugal are ahead of Hungary, while they were well
> > behind before WWII.

> Could you send data about this?  When I visited Greece in the
> seventies, it's health and education system and rural poverty
> did not compare favourably.

According to World Bank figures quoted in The Economist, Hungary was bettered
in per-capita GDP (1993 data, on purchasing-power parity) by the following,
in ascending order: Thailand, Mexico, Czech Republic, Venezuela,
Greece, Chile, Malaysia, Argentina, South Korea, Portugal, Taiwan, Israel, the
OECD average, Singapore, Hong Kong (p. 122, 11 March 1995 issue).

The UNDP's Human Development index is a composite measure of life expectancy
at birth, income (GDP), adult literacy and enrolment in primary, secondary and
tertiary education.  On that table (The Economist, p. 94, 26 August 1995)
Hungary is bettered by: Venezuela, Czech Republic, Portugal, Chile, South
 Korea,Argentina, Greece, Israel, plus various OECD countries.  Note that
 Mexico,
Thailand and Malaysia are below Hungary now, while Taiwan, Singapore and
Hong Kong are not shown, figures are for 1992.

> I am curious about the pre-war figures, too.

I have no more time than you to chase up references outside my work.
You just have to take my word that I read a comparison to that effect quite
a few years ago, specifically for Greece and Portugal.

> > If by Columbia you mean the South American country ColOmbia, it has been th
e
> > second best performer in Latin America in economic development over many
> > decades.  (The first was Chile.)  And dragging a personal fiefdom of a
 countr

> Economic development based on the drug industry? That is the impression
> from the media, or was it not appearent for decades?  Is the poverty
> of the poor there compareble with the Hungarian?  If that is the price
> of "development"  who wants it?
> Chile - again, what price for development!

If you read a little more serious press than the one creating the impression
that Colombia is all about drugs, you would know better: try The Economist
for one.  Beyond that, I refuse to be dragged into a debate that has no
relevance to Hungary.

> I do put rational arguments,

There may have been such a case once, but I cannot remember.

> I have no time to research data,
> you're wellcome to supply it.

That's nice double standards.

> But growth figures are not
> enough, compare unemployment figures, health and education data,
> please.

See above.

George Antony

Sandor Lengyel wrote:

> As a critic of the Antall goverment I still have some bone to pick with
 Goeorge
> Antony:
>
> >>Antall basically wanted to take Hungary back to where it went off the rails
> >>in the late 1930s, even to the extent of having a policy of restoring the
> >>old aristocracy ("pozicioba hozni az arisztokraciat").
>
> This appears a bit extreem. Which aristocracy got the land back. I don't
> know any. I certainly did not. (It is true I am not of aristocracy myself).

No, I know of no special treatment of the old aristocracy as far as land
restitution is concerned.

> If the did not get back the property, than what does "restoring the
> old aristocracy" means. That the organized a ball on non goverment expense?

As I understand it meant inviting back members of the Hungarian aristocracy
living abroad.  I am not privy to the financial incentives offered, but it is
absolutely ludicrous that the PM should, in a public statement, suggest that
the invitation of overseas Hungarians back home should be based on ancestry.

> I feel that in Bohamia the old power came back stronger than in Hungary.

Well, I know precious little about Bohemia, but I am not particularly
concerned about it either.

> >>Indeed, Antall has even declared himself the Prime Minister of 15 million
> >>Hungarians.
>
>   For some people, including me, it was one of the good right things he made.
> But of course it depends upon a person's point of view.

Certainly.

George Antony

George Antony wrote/quoth:

: > >>Indeed, Antall has even declared himself the Prime Minister of 15 million
: > >>Hungarians.

Without getting into how much a difference it might make, is it true that he
said something like "Prime Minister in spirit" or so?  I may be dreaming, but
I seem to remember it that way.


--Greg Grose

Jim Doepp wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, George Antony wrote:
>
> > Joe NO, not Joe, but Jim Doepp wrote (Joe's that other bloke):

Oops, sorry, sheer senility on my part, not a Freudian slip.

> You seem to take it for granted that this "shock therapy" is a necessary
> thing, due to the incompetence of the MDF-led government.  Only remember,
> 1994 was a year of growth and declining inflation.  Only after the
> Socialists took power did inflation rear its ugly head again.

Non sequitur.  Economic indicators are a lagged measure of economic management.
Besides, you ignore the issue of financing economic recovery from borrowed
money, something that the MDF was doing a big way (just as Kadar) and the
current government has to make up for that profligacy.

> > Some order.  There have been countless allegations of the privatization
> > process merely being turned around to favour Antall's acolytes.
>
> Allegations not substantiated.

What do you mean ?  Not brought to court ?  In that sense, no.  But then the
activity itself is not illegal in strictly legalistic terms, and people knew
the beneficiaries well.

> > Old socialists, holding government posts under Antall ?  Who would that be 
?
>
> Sorry, what I meant is bureaucratic posts (ie civil servants).  Yes indeed.
> You don't think
> the Antall government fired every civil servant, do you?  They couldn't,
> without the left-liberal press screaming bloody murder.  Take the case of
> Vetooemag Vaallalat.  Here the branches of the seed group were turned
> into Kfts., but were still undergoing a 'liquidation' procedure.  The
> court-appointed liquidator was an old bureaucrat, who did nothing but sit
> on the case.  The Kfts were not private, neither were they given the
> funding to operate.

I do not think that the Vetomag Vallalat's privatization delay, apparently
caused by an old-fashioned bureaucrat, was more serious than the mismanagement
of the whole banking sector.  For the latter, you cannot blame some leftover
commie bureaucrat.

> In 1990, MDF held 42.7 percent of seats with 164 MPs.  With the KNDP (5.4%)
> and FKgP (11.4%) the total was 59.5%
>
> In 1993 MDF held  35.1 percent, KNDP  6.23%, FKgP 2.08.

I presume that the second set of figures reflect the departure of the
Csurkists.  Still, as they would still vote with the goverment rather than the
rest of the opposition left of the government, this is a bit of a straw
man argument.

> Compare that to the present situation (I don't have the figures with me,
> but MSZP has over 50 percent, and the coalition has the two-thirds
> majority to alter the constitution.

Sure, compare it with your first set of figures.  Even during the time of its
clear majority, the MDF-led coalition did very little substantial work.

> > > 5.  The common opinion is that MDF was 'inexperienced', and could not
> > > handle the problems of government.  This is partly true.
> >
> > Especially that another common opinion is that the MDF governments,
 especially
> > Antall's was not merely inexperienced, but ideologically driven.  They were
> > just as much authoritarian, committed to a strong governmental role in the
> > economy and a strong influence over people's thinking as consolidated
>  Kadarism,
> > merely the ideology was different.
> >
> > Antall's idea was to undo history and delete the shameful 45 years of
>  socialist
> > experimentation from Hungary's past.

> No, the idea is not to undo history.  The idea is to come to terms with
> the past, try to come to an understanding of your history.  YOu see, if
> for forty years people have been lied to about their culture, history,
> etc.   it is only natural to do some navel gazing once it is allowed.

I strongly disagree.  It was no idle navel gazing, not that this would be
the task of a government charged with running a country in the present, anyway.

> There was no more damning indictment
> > of economic policy stemming from such a dogmatic ideological stand than the
> > agricultural sector.  Instead of accepting the tenure system as given,
 trying
> > to make most of it, and transforming it into something better in an orderly
> > way, there were attempts to throttle the cooperatives wholesale and create
> > smallholdings out of them.  Smallholdings in Hungary would have to be a few
> > hectares each if land were distributed equally: one needs little training
> > in economics to appreciate what that would do for the competitiveness of th
e
> > agricultural sector and the living standards of the farmers.

> This is absolutely false.  Cooperatives were dismantled in this way in
> Rumania, but not in Hungary.

Once again, you do not seem to read what I write.  I did not write that
"cooperatives were dismantled", I said they were throttled.

THose ex classmates of mine at the Godollo Agricultural University with whom I
kept contact, come cooperative leaders, some private entrepreneurs, some out
of agriculture altogether, all agreed that the policy of the Antall/Boross
governments was to make the operations of the cooperatives as difficult as
possible without actually disbanding them.  The reason for that was not any
particular problem with their operations and performance within the agricultura
l
sector, but the fact that they were set up, in a pretty sordid way, by the
old commies.  So, undoing that bit of communist legacy was desirable, whatever
the consequences for the economy.  The same consideration was apparent when
I discussed the issue with Gyorgy Rasko, the Secretary of the Ministry of
Agriculture.  Besides, there was that little campaign against the 'green
barons', i.e., the agricultural intelligentsia running the cooperatives.  THey
were seen as opposition supporters, hence making the cooperatives wither on
the vine was a good way of pulling the rug from under one section of the
baddies in the electorate.

> In Hungary, people working on the
> cooperatives were legally given land, but they were also given the choice
> to remain within the cooperative, as long as they did not have the proper
> machinery to run their farm.

That has nothing to do with it.

> Most remained.

Yeah, despite all the harrassment.  Agricultural sector was much weakened
by the aggro, so in the end the whole country lost out for some stupid
ideological drive.

> > Antall basically wanted to take Hungary back to where it went off the rails
> > in the late 1930s, even to the extent of having a policy of restoring the
> > old aristocracy ("pozicioba hozni az arisztokraciat").  Antall wanted to fi
x
> > up people's minds before turning his attention to mundane things such as th
e
> > economy.  This is not merely inexperience, this is a backward-looking
> > programme, driven by a dogmatic ideology, totally unsuited for turning an
> > ex-Soviet satellite with weak socio-economic institutions into a modern
> > European parliamentary democracy with a market economy.

> Now you're giving that old socialist blather.  Modernizaacioo.

If you are trying to be offensive, at least spell it out.  As it is, I have
no idea what you mean.

> Your are right, socio-economic institutions are weak in Hungary.  These
> are the institutions that have been destroyed under socialism.  Culture
> has not been allowed to develop, but has been suppressed.  Perhaps there
> are values that can only be found by looking back, reassessing the past.
> One cannot turn a country into a 'modern European parliamentary
> democracy' by
> ignoring the past.  One must understand that the pillars of Western
> Europe are in its history.  Hungary's history cannot be ignored; neither
> its pre-1948 history, nor its post 1948 history.  One cannot build
> democracy in a vaccuum.

One motherhood statement after the other, but there is no conclusion.  Or do
you mean that Antall was right in trying to take Hungary back to the late
1930s for a clean start on a 'modern European parliamentary democracy' ?

> > They are also launching into the privatization of such sacred cows of left-
> > and right-wing statism as the energy utilities.  This would have been
> > inconceivable under Antall, on grounds of principle.

> Oh?  Then why do the MDF-ers in parliament now support it?

The election defeat may have instilled some reality into them.  Election
defeats can change parties very radically, so your question is irrelevant:
today's MDF is not yesterday's MDF.

> The Hungarians in Rumania are not oppressed simply because the Rumanians
> are paranoid that Hungary will invade.  They are so, because the world is
> ignorant about what has been going on.

And when the world can see clearly what is going on (e.g., Bosnia) it does
nothing.  So, the only way to solve the problem between Hungary and its
neighbours is through dialogue, not a self-righteous, antagonistic approach.
Pressure from various third parties does help, but only if there is a dialogue
going.

> You probably would have had West
> Germany deny citizenship to East Germans, wouldn't you?

I have never considered this proposition, but what has this question got to do
with our debate anyway ?

> > > There were some excellent MDF ministers, such as Kupa Mihaly, Jeszenszky
> > > Geza, not to mention Antall Jozsef.
> >
> > Are you serious ?
>
> YES.

Oh, dear.


George Antony

Trust me -- when it comes to beer, you won't have to worry about our
soldiers turning up their noses at any Magyar brand. Taste is not a
factor.

Sam Stowe

Many writers on this list have given good and valid reasons why the standard
of living in Hungary is on the way down.  I wish to thank all of you for
your efforts.  However, no one succeeded in convincing me that I should
accept economic reality as it is.

The major weakness, or flaw, in the pro status quo argument is that it
defends  an economic system that 'justifies' why some people are filthy rich
and why others live in abject poverty.

Some have called my arguments against the status quo marxist, quasi-marxist,
utopian, idealist, etc., etc.  I must admit that I do dream of a world where
everyone's basic needs are met.  Is that such a bad thing?  I don't think
so.  And I'll not make a case for total equality.  That would be neither
possible nor desired.

However, the defenders of the status quo will be more successful in
fostering social unrest than 'marxist idealists' could ever hope to be.
What I fear is the violence and the destruction that usually erupts when the
have-nots try to end their poverty and misery.   History is a much better
teacher than economics in this field.

An economic system that fails to meet the basic needs of all, has already
sown the seeds of its own destruction.

Joe Szalai

An interesting article appeared in HVG (November 25; pp. 9-12 about the MSZP
(Magyar Szocialista Part/Hungarian Socialist Party). The occasion for the
article was the forthcoming party congress to be held in Miskolc.

The pollsters at Median found that "if elections were held next Sunday" in
certain age brackets the MSZP lost as much as 60-70% of its voters. For
example, those between 40 and 59 seemed to be most disillusioned, but even
among those older than 60 the party lost 40 percent of its contituency.

Although it is difficult to get numbers on party membership, according to one
study, the MSZP had 29 thousand members before 1994. During 1994, the year of
the elections, 7,000 people joined the party. Before 1994, half of the
members were between 40 and 60, and only one-third older than 60. However,
two-thirds of the new recruits are over 60. Another interesting piece of
information: In 1992 only half of those who would have voted for the MSZP had
been members of the old MSZMP. In 1994, on the other hand, most of the former
MSZMP members voted for the socialists.

At the time of the 1994 elections, a majority of those who voted for the MSZP
believed that (1) prices should be regulated; (2) industries in crisis should
be subsidized; (3) it is more important to decrease the number of unemployed
than to decrease inflation; (4) the influence of trade unions is not
sufficient enough; (5) state properties should not be privatized; (6)
foreigners should not be able to purchase Hungarian companies; and (7) they
would be unhappy if their own workplace was privatized.

The article's conclusion is that the party's early hesitance concerning
policy was not the result of confusion, but the party/government leaders
tried to follow the wishes of the party's constituency, until it became
obvious that such policy was unworkable.

According to the latest polls, 51% of those asked find that Gyula Horn is not
even fit to be prime minister. His approval rate is 31%. His popularity is
lowest among those under 40 (from 75% to 26%), among the unemployed (from 66%
to 26%), and among the unskilled physical workers (from 80% to 22%). However,
when asked whom they would find more suitable for the post of prime minister,
they could not point to any other active politician. When the pollsters added
the name of Miklos Nemeth, the last prime minister before the first free
elections, he came out way ahead of everybody else, including Horn. While 18%
voted for Horn; 31% for Nemeth. But, of course, he is unlikely to reenter
politics and these sentiments simply reflect a certain nostalgia for the
"good old days."

To add to all this I found an interview with Imre Keseru (168 ora, November
21, p. 17), who had had a very active political role before 1989-1990. He
used to be an MSZMP member, yet today he says: "I am not sure whether the
real experts got into the government. From this point of view my fears of the
fall of 1989 had been justified: too many former cadres find their way back
to power."

That is my impression as well. Every week, HVG has an interview with someone
who has been in the news the week before. The interview is preceded by a
short biography. I have never met so many KISZ secretaries, so many
eager-beavers who joined the party at the age of 21 while in college as in
these portraits. The CVs of these people are boring reading--real
apparatchiks, or, if you prefer, opportunists, who joined the party in order
to advance their careers. One wonders whether these people are the most
suitable for the job of changing Hungarian economic and social life in a
radical way.

And finally, the newest polls indicate that 51 percent of those asked finds
the present social order inferior to socialism. They seemed to be worried
most about the loss of job security. Among the newly received freedoms, they
consider most important the fact that now they can choose their own
doctors!!! Least important: they can choose among different parties!!!
According to 70-80 percent of the population the current differences in
income are too great. In the past five years the number of those who think
that the state should pay a greater role in society has grown from 25% to
51%.

Obviously the growing pains of change are felt everywhere..

Eva Balogh

Greg Grose wrote:

> George Antony wrote/quoth:
>  > >>Indeed, Antall has even declared himself the Prime Minister of 15 millio
n
>  > >>Hungarians.

> Without getting into how much a difference it might make, is it true that he
> said something like "Prime Minister in spirit" or so?  I may be dreaming, but
> I seem to remember it that way.

Correct.  And in my view, it makes no difference at all: equally meaningless
as far as the minority Hungarians are concerned and equally paranoia-inducing
as far as the neighbouring countries' non-Hungarian inhabitants are concerned.

George Antony

On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, DARREN E PURCELL wrote:

> context in to account when he makes statements like that. I mean, he
> might be
> an AMerican professor

assistent professor

and probably has not had to live on less than $10K > a year for while ;-)


>
I can count on one hand the years I have earned more than 10,000 usd.
(actually, 1987-1990).  My present salary, if you wish to know, is 25,000
HUF per month (= US$ 185).  There is a common misunderstanding about
economists, that they believe that since everybody is a utility
maximisor, he must therefore wish to maximise his own income.  I deny
that.  I also live it.  There are other goals to my life than to earn
money.  I would not be teaching in Hungary if it were not so.  Service to
a community provides a different type of satisfaction that cannot be
counted in monetary terms.  Some think they can derive more satisfaction
from making money.  I say, let them.  But please do not consider me a
materialist in any sense of the word.

jim

ps. take a second to read the quote from Plato's laws, written below.


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, George Antony wrote:

<snip
>
> You do not seem to respond to what I am saying.  Please read again the first
> sentence and then your answer.
>
> I was only talking about similarities, not direct parallels.  Canada's
 economic
> problems are well documented, and the trend is downwards.  It is a truism to
> say that these economic problems are mild compared to those of Hungary, and
> I never suggested otherwise.
>
> What I did suggest, however, that both countries had a period of
 debt-financed,
> fools-paradise high living standards, and that the excesses of that period ar
e
> now coming home to roost.
>

I agree with you completely.  Pardon my hasty reply based on an
incomplete reading.:->

jim


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, George Antony wrote:

> Joe NO, not Joe, but Jim Doepp wrote (Joe's that other bloke):
..<clip>

>
>
> Even with such a slow start, Hungary stole the lead on the other Soviet
> satellites, amounting to a few years' worth of advantage.  By now, that
> advantage has all but disappeared, and Hungary is forced into shock therapy
> belatedly, five years after the change of systems, when the other Central-
> European countries are in the consolidation stage.


You seem to take it for granted that this "shock therapy" is a necessary
thing, due to the incompetence of the MDF-led government.  Only remember,
1994 was a year of growth and declining inflation.  Only after the
Socialists took power did inflation rear its ugly head again.


 >
> The question must be asked: why ?
>
<clip>
> According to my Hungarian sources, the MDF-led coalition merely dusted off
> legislation already prepared by the one-year wonder of that caretaker
> technocrat government in 1989.  Legislation that the Nemeth government had
> no time to put through parliament, and legislation that Antall's government
> did not touch for a couple of years after coming to power.
>

>From what I understand they used many sources, including the EC law,
German law, US law, and yes some of it did come from the old Nemeth
government.  But it all had to be formulated, debated, put into place.
Take the example of Competition law.  There was a competition law in
place from 1984 (act prohibiting unfair economic activities.)  In
November 1990, Parliament approved the new competition law.  When
formulating this law, the 1984 law was used, the 1938 (?) law was
considered, the EC law, and the US law.  This was not just 'dusting off'
the Nemeth government's law.


> first couple of years.

<snip snip>

> Some order.  There have been countless allegations of the privatization
> process merely being turned around to favour Antall's acolytes.


Allegations not substantiated.


>
> > The problem is that it
> > became overly bureaucratic.  And many old socialists still held
> > government posts, and many of them just back-pedalled.
>

> Old socialists, holding government posts under Antall ?  Who would that be ?


Sorry, what I meant is bureaucratic posts (ie civil servants).  Yes indeed.
You don't think
the Antall government fired every civil servant, do you?  They couldn't,
without the left-liberal press screaming bloody murder.  Take the case of
Vetooemag Vaallalat.  Here the branches of the seed group were turned
into Kfts., but were still undergoing a 'liquidation' procedure.  The
court-appointed liquidator was an old bureaucrat, who did nothing but sit
on the case.  The Kfts were not private, neither were they given the
funding to operate.


>
> > 4.  The MDF, I believe, did not "clean house" so to speak, because their
> > political position was not secure.
>
> I beg your pardon ?  The MDF-led coalition had a clear parliamentary majority
.
>

In 1990, MDF held 42.7 percent of seats with 164 MPs.  With the KNDP (5.4%)
and FKgP (11.4%) the total was 59.5%

In 1993 MDF held  35.1 percent, KNDP  6.23%, FKgP 2.08.

Compare that to the present situation (I don't have the figures with me,
but MSZP has over 50 percent, and the coalition has the two-thirds
majority to alter the constitution.


>
> I have not heard reports of systematic campaings against journalists who
> were critical of the government, culminating in the sacking of said
 journalists,
> under the current government.  My information may be deficient, but I
 understand
> that this is the very significant difference.
>

Again your reports...


> > 5.  The common opinion is that MDF was 'inexperienced', and could not
> > handle the problems of government.  This is partly true.
>
> Especially that another common opinion is that the MDF governments, especiall
y
> Antall's was not merely inexperienced, but ideologically driven.  They were
> just as much authoritarian, committed to a strong governmental role in the
> economy and a strong influence over people's thinking as consolidated
 Kadarism,
> merely the ideology was different.
>
> Antall's idea was to undo history and delete the shameful 45 years of
 socialist
> experimentation from Hungary's past.

No, the idea is not to undo history.  The idea is to come to terms with
the past, try to come to an understanding of your history.  YOu see, if
for forty years people have been lied to about their culture, history,
etc.   it is only natural to do some navel gazing once it is allowed.


There was no more damning indictment
> of economic policy stemming from such a dogmatic ideological stand than the
> agricultural sector.  Instead of accepting the tenure system as given, trying
> to make most of it, and transforming it into something better in an orderly
> way, there were attempts to throttle the cooperatives wholesale and create
> smallholdings out of them.  Smallholdings in Hungary would have to be a few
> hectares each if land were distributed equally: one needs little training
> in economics to appreciate what that would do for the competitiveness of the
> agricultural sector and the living standards of the farmers.
>


This is absolutely false.  Cooperatives were dismantled in this way in
Rumania, but not in Hungary.  In Hungary, people working on the
cooperatives were legally given land, but they were also given the choice
to remain within the cooperative, as long as they did not have the proper
machinery to run their farm.  Most remained.



> Antall basically wanted to take Hungary back to where it went off the rails
> in the late 1930s, even to the extent of having a policy of restoring the
> old aristocracy ("pozicioba hozni az arisztokraciat").  Antall wanted to fix
> up people's minds before turning his attention to mundane things such as the
> economy.  This is not merely inexperience, this is a backward-looking
> programme, driven by a dogmatic ideology, totally unsuited for turning an
> ex-Soviet satellite with weak socio-economic institutions into a modern
> European parliamentary democracy with a market economy.
>

Now you're giving that old socialist blather.  Modernizaacioo.
Your are right, socio-economic institutions are weak in Hungary.  These
are the institutions that have been destroyed under socialism.  Culture
has not been allowed to develop, but has been suppressed.  Perhaps there
are values that can only be found by looking back, reassessing the past.


One cannot turn a country into a 'modern European parliamentary
democracy' by
ignoring the past.  One must understand that the pillars of Western
Europe are in its history.  Hungary's history cannot be ignored; neither
its pre-1948 history, nor its post 1948 history.  One cannot build
democracy in a vaccuum.


> > But in come the
> > Socialists, who run their campaign claiming to be 'szakemberek'
> > (professionals) and we find that the professionals are just as inept.
> > Only the press still thinks otherwise.  Consider privatisation:  the
> > HungaroHotels deal was already set, agreed to by the AVU (State Property
> > Agency) and in steps Mr. Horn and nullifies the whole deal.
>
> Since he hasn't been able to get a better deal, this was certainly a case of
> incompetence.
>
> > Phillips
> > offers to buy Hungaroton, but the government decides to accept another
> > deal (a Hungarian buyer) for half the price.
>
> There are arguments why a domestic buyer may be preferable to an overseas
> one, even at a lower price.


But *HALF* the price?  What about the confidence of foreign investors in
Hungary?


>
> > Now the Government is
> > humming and hawing over Antenna HUngaria.
>
> A capital offence, humming a hawing.
>
> They are also launching into the privatization of such sacred cows of left-
> and right-wing statism as the energy utilities.  This would have been
> inconceivable under Antall, on grounds of principle.
>

Oh?  Then why do the MDF-ers in parliament now support it?


> > The MSzP has shown itself just
> > as incompetent as the MDF.  And this with an absolute majority in
> > parliament, and with the SzDSz a two-thirds majority.
>
> As I pointed out already, the MDF-led coalition also had an absolute majority
.
>
> > I am not an all-out MDF-er.  But I do think it has been given a bum rap,
> > both here and abroad.  Besides the institutional developments mentioned
> > above, it stood up for Hungarians living in the surrounding regions.
>
> Indeed, Antall has even declared himself the Prime Minister of 15 million
> Hungarians.  This and similar masterstrokes of diplomacy did wonders in
> relations with neighbouring countries.


The Hungarians in Rumania are not oppressed simply because the Rumanians
are paranoid that Hungary will invade.  They are so, because the world is
ignorant about what has been going on.  You probably would have had West
Germany deny citizenship to East Germans, wouldn't you?

>
> > There were some excellent MDF ministers, such as Kupa Mihaly, Jeszenszky
> > Geza, not to mention Antall Jozsef.
>
> Are you serious ?

YES.

jim



/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Eva Durant wrote:

> about taxes: if you are in the top scale, you can
> afford a few accountants and tax-specialists to tell you
> how to avoid it altogether... Check it out: the income
> of the state from income-tax is 90% or more from
> those, whos money is taxed as they earn.
> Just to put right an other fallacy: most state benefits
> are paid out to corprate business, not to social wellfare.
> I have no data , but you are free to prove me wrong.
> (I've seen supporting statistics on TV)
> 

Eva, your terminology is marxist, but you sound more and more like a
supply-sider all along:->

jim


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, zcapl74 wrote:

>         What about this idea as a new form of tax - of course abolishing all
> other forms of tax on your income:
>
>         You must spend X% (about 80% I would think but I haven`t put much
> thought into it yet) of your yearly (whta is now gross) income. If you don`t
> spend all of it,the rest of the X% will be collected as revenue.
>
>         O.K., this will be difficult to implement and run - everyone`s
 financeswill
>  have to be audited and you will have to keep receipts for everything you
> buy. But it will incourage investment in the country (only, say, 20% of the
> 80% could be invested abroad). What do you think?
>

I think your idea is bunk.

1.  How will investment be increased, if there is no saving?  I mean,
where will banks get the money to loan?

2.  This will encourage everybody to spend all they have, which will
cause hyperinflation and/or shorages (one can't increase the output to
such an extent without increasing the size of factories, (capital), and
that takes time.

3.  How will anyone save for the future?  Maybe your idea is that the
almighty state will take care of everything.  But they won't get much
money, with all the spending sprees that will take place.

4.  What about freedom?  I mean, people should have the choice to spend
and save as they wish.  Confiscatory taxes are just that.  A low tax will
discourage a given activity.  A confiscatory tax is misuse of state power.

jim


/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /

James D. Doepp
University of Miskolc (Hungary)
Department of Economic Theory


"...if pleasure and liking, pain and dislike, are formed in the
soul on right lines before the age of understanding is reached,
and when that age is attained, these feelings are in concord with
understanding, thanks to early discipline in appropriate habits -
this concord, regarded as a whole, is virtue.  But if you consider
one factor in it, the rightly disciplined state of pleasures and
pains whereby man, from his first beginnings on, will abhor what
he should abhor and relish what he should relish - if you isolate
this factor and call it education, you will be giving it its true name."

Plato, Laws II

/ / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / / /