Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 769
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-25
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: About dogs (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Homosexuality in nature / Re: Church, morals, (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
8 Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: About dogs (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Homosexuality in nature / Re: Church, morals, (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: About dogs (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: megale Moravia. (mind)  75 sor     (cikkei)
29 research for article (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: About dogs (mind)  86 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
33 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
34 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Toronto. (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Futyulos barack meg bogatya. (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
42 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
43 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
44 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
45 Futyulos barack meg bogatya. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 23 Aug 1996 17:16:22 GMT,  (Marc Gelgon) wrote:

>In article >,  (ANDREW
ROZSA) writes:
>>On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:43:29 -0400, Joe Szalai
> wrote:
>>
>>>At 05:28 PM 8/18/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, in Re: Toronto, wrote:
>>
>>>[.....]
>>>>difficulties learning a new language. Or, those with a cultural superiority
>>>>complex--see, for example, the French.
>>>
>>
>>I also submit that the arrogance of the French is unmatched on this
>>planet.
>>
>
>
>True that the French MEDIA and the PARISIANS may often be arrogant,
>pretentious, disdainful and ridiculous. Especially the right-wing fellows.
>
>But not all French people are like that.
>
>And some EVEN speak foreign languages, as you can see.
>
>(But sorry, my hungarian is inexistent, because all my friends
>are in Slovakia). However if I had time I'd learn a bit of Hungarian.
>
>___________________________________________________________
>
>Marc GELGON
>IRISA, Campus de Beaulieu                              Email : 
r
>35042 Rennes cedex             Tel   : 99.84.74.32
>France.
>____________________________________________________________
>

You are, of course, absolutely right!

As to learning Hungarian: may I suggest a less masochistic enterprise?
Like Mandarin.  After 50 years of trying (much of it in Transylvania),
my mom died never being to conjugate verbs correctly.  She also freely
mixed and mismatched O"n,  maga, te, and the super-courteous form that
requires "tetszik".

(As an object lesson, would someone delight us all again by reposting
the "kave nincs" thread? To my chagrin, I seem to have deleted it).

Appreciate the interest, though. Also, would you please remind us,
from time to time, not to confuse the media and Parisians with the
whole French nation.

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:06:21 -0400, Joe Szalai
> wrote:

>At 03:25 AM 8/22/96 GMT, Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
>>I submit that a nation that has given the world more scientists,
>>musicians, artists, etc. than any other (PER CAPITA) may have SOME
>>bragging rights. While the penchant of Hungarians to argue about
>>anything and everything drives me crazy, I never cease to be amazed
>>how knowledgeable they are. Taxi-drivers in Budapest, included. :-)
>
>Is your submission for real?  Has there ever been a per capita study of this?
>Joe Szalai

Oh, dear, dear Joe! You have forgotten  you are talking to a
Hungarian! Don't you remember? WE use hyperboles, not metaphors, as
our favorite figure of speech....WE don't have to support our
statements with facts. OUR statements are axiomatic.  The truth.

But seriously... I heard this statement repeated so often that I just
take it for granted.  Besides, it pleases me to think that my pedigree
may reach into such a(n) (potentially) illustrious heritage.

Let's see: we can probably count about 12 Nobel Prize laureates with
Hungarian roots, then, at one time, a lot of the major Symphonic
Orchestras in USA had Hungarian conductors (or their students), then
the movie makers, the musicians (including my namesake), the
mathematicians,......hey, maybe it's not an exaggeration. :-).

Look, why don't you just use me as your expert, when referring to the
source of  the above statement? ;-)

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 17:04:17 -0400, Garry Collins/PEC/NZ
> wrote:

>>>Joe Szalai wrote:
>>>The French have a cultural superiority complex?  Really?  If someone asked
>>>me, who in the world has a cultural superiority complex,  I would, without
>>>hesitation, say the Hungarians.  If you don't believe me, just listen to
>
>>Andrew J. Rozsa replied:
>>I also submit that the arrogance of the French is unmatched on this
>>planet.
>
>I beg to differ, you would be hard pressed to match a hard line White South
>African.
>(Africana??)
>
>GarryC

Now that you mention it.........  I have never been able to win a
single argument with this stunning SA beauty with whom I played
raquetball for years....I do catch on slowly...:-)

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: About dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Interestingly enough, I have seen the behavior you outlined below. Of
course, it was in Kentucky, where everything is messed up and somewhat
backwards (where sick people joke that incest was a fine family activity)

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Zsargo Janos wrote:

> E.Balogh wrote:
>
> >        I as a dog breeder can attest to that. What do you mean: "even"?
> >Dogs are not at all discriminating when the time is appropriate. Bitches
> >(the name of the female dog in "dog language") are in heat twice a year. A
> >bitch in heat will mount another bitch and they can amuse themselves for
> >hours. When a bitch is in season and you don't want to have an "accident,"
> >you keep the males (plainly known as dogs [as opposed to bitches]) out of
> >the pen. The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
> >to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
> >again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
> >shocked. By now, I just laugh.
> >
> >        Eva Balogh
>
> Thanks Eva for the nice biology lesson, however let me ask something. Have
> you ever seen male/female dogs 'amusing themselves' while the opposing sex
> is actually present on the scene and 'accident' would be allowed to happen?
> Also have you seen male/female dogs being 'urged' by the smell of another
> dog with the same sex? If not, your example is simple the analogy of the
> human 'prison homosexuality'.
>
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:18 AM 8/24/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:

>Oh, dear, dear Joe! You have forgotten  you are talking to a
>Hungarian! Don't you remember? WE use hyperboles, not metaphors, as
>our favorite figure of speech....WE don't have to support our
>statements with facts. OUR statements are axiomatic.  The truth.
>
>But seriously... I heard this statement repeated so often that I just
>take it for granted.  Besides, it pleases me to think that my pedigree
>may reach into such a(n) (potentially) illustrious heritage.
>
>Let's see: we can probably count about 12 Nobel Prize laureates with
>Hungarian roots, then, at one time, a lot of the major Symphonic
>Orchestras in USA had Hungarian conductors (or their students), then
>the movie makers, the musicians (including my namesake), the
>mathematicians,......hey, maybe it's not an exaggeration. :-).
>
>Look, why don't you just use me as your expert, when referring to the
>source of  the above statement? ;-)

Anna Bayer's observation, which I posted on her behalf yesterday, was quite
interesting.  She said that in the Diaspora Museum in Tel-Aviv, many
'Hungarians' were pictured among famous Jewish musicians, scientists, etc.
I have no doubt that this is the case.  And if we were to add up the
contributions that Jews made to western culture, they may, in fact, come out
on top.  And, if I may be so bold as to add the contributions of another
oppressed group, homosexuals, many European ultra nationalists would be left
scratching their heads at the dearth of contributions by 'real' national
personalities.

Joe Szalai

P.S.  I hope no one thinks that 'I' have a cultural superiority complex.
I'm just an innocent.

"Jews and homosexuals are the outstanding creative minorities in
contemporary urban culture. Creative, that is, in the truest sense: they are
creators of sensibilities. The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility
are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony."
          Susan Sontag
+ - Re: Homosexuality in nature / Re: Church, morals, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:16 PM 8/23/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:

> But in all honesty I can't find a good reason why all this would belong
>in the HUNGARY list.

Why not discuss homosexual issues on this list?  I find it as relevant, if
not more so, than discussing the ideas, or actions, of dead Hungarians like
Kun, Lukacs, or Kadar.  Homosexual issues may interest up to ten percent of
the Hungarian population.  Lukacs's ideas may interest almost zero percent
of the population.  Of course, if you're not interested in any particular
thread, then keep using the delete button.  Can life be any simpler?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:45 PM 8/23/96 -0400, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

>ESB:
>> The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
>> to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
>> again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
>> shocked. By now, I just laugh.

>What does this have to do with people.
>Could you explain, please?
>(I wanna laugh, too.)        Sz. Zoli

So, you wanna laugh, too, eh?  Try this.  It may work.  On a piece of paper
write the words, "I HAVE THE ANSWER TO EVERYTHING" backwards .  Once you've
finished, pin the piece of paper to your chest and stand in front of a
mirror.  I'm sure you'll laugh.

Let me know if it works.  OK?

Joe Szalai

"Stand firm in your refusal to remain conscious during algebra. In real
life, I assure you, there is no such thing as algebra."
        Fran Lebowitz
+ - Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My cousin just arrived back from Hungary on a visit.
He said that while he enjoyed his trip, things wer
very expensive there. He cannot understand how people
earning a living (or trying to) can survive.

Most imports are 1.5 - 2 times as expensive as in New York!
Food prices have doubled in a year and a half. Metro and other
transport is out of sight! Energy prices have really increased.
Postage stamps costs more than in the USA for equivalent mail.

What is the Hungarian government doing about this?? Nothing!
Instead of making it easier for Hungarians to live and eat and
travel, one needs not two jobs but three! It is high time for the
government of Hungary to wake up and slash those prices.

Lord knowes that they arent giving any raises and that the
real wages are slipping about 5% per year.  This is grinding away
at the Hungarian people's patience....are they looking for another
revolution. The country has been raped enough! Stop this over taxation
and reduce the prices so that the citizens of Hungary can actually afford
to buy things!!!!
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:07 PM 8/23/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>So if you want to go ahead and break all the taboos, please do go ahead.
>Some of us have certain innate fears or knowledge that certain things are
>not to be.

I think that what you have can be best diagnosed by a psychologist.  Period.
And by the way, homophobia is treatable, but you have to take the first step
to recovery.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark said:
 A human can love and
have the intelligence to go beyond to basic functions of genitalia.

>>>
Yes you are right. In Hungary for example (unlike the USA) men can
hug, kiss, caress in public and is expected from relatives.
I would be considered rude IF I did not kiss my uncles, grandfathers,
fathers, or my close friends. Here it would be looked upon as strange.
And one does kiss these relatives in private and public.

However, I beove that you may be confusing LOVE with sex. I love
my uncles, etc. but never think of having sex with them! Perhaps that
is the difference between a healthy love and what I think you described.
Peter
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:01 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>What is the Hungarian government doing about this?? Nothing!
>Instead of making it easier for Hungarians to live and eat and
>travel, one needs not two jobs but three! It is high time for the
>government of Hungary to wake up and slash those prices.

You mean by decrees? Or how?

>Lord knowes that they arent giving any raises and that the
>real wages are slipping about 5% per year.  This is grinding away
>at the Hungarian people's patience....are they looking for another
>revolution. The country has been raped enough! Stop this over taxation
>and reduce the prices so that the citizens of Hungary can actually afford
>to buy things!!!!

On one hand the government should stop "this over-taxation",  on the other
it should grant salary increases and reduce prices. Are you suggesting they
just print more money?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark:
You said>>>
Yes, a man and a woman are required to make a baby... BUT more than baby
popping
is necessary to make a society.  It also needs caring, nuturing,
constructive,
and responsible people.  Is a person uncapable of these virtues if they
fall in
love with someone of the same sex?  Please answer.

Why are you so afraid of children knowing that there are homosexuals?  When
will
they find out about reality?
>>>
See my previous response. I am not afraid of having kids learn the
truth'about homosexuals...but it would be beneficial to have them learn
about it when it is right not when someone showes it down their throat.

Again, I think that you may be confusing LOVE and SEX. The two are
related in a special way.

I think in Hungary, the idea of being able to kiss and hug your friends
and realtives in public without being looked badly upon is healthier
than the Puritan ethic vail here in the states. However, what is important
to distinguish is that I have yet to see in Hungary a fervent effort
to try to teach and show approval of homosexuality to children.
I am sure that they learn all they need to learn about many things,
please do not attempt to destoy their trust in humanity too soon.
Peter
+ - Re: About dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thank you Zsargo Janos for a good response to Eva's cannine response.
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Homosexuality in nature / Re: Church, morals, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete said:
 But in all honesty I can't find a good reason why all this would belong
in the HUNGARY list.
>>
You are right Zoli -- the only way this belongs to Hungary list is if
we actually talk about Hungary. Thanx for the reminder. Besides, I think
we have probabl talked it out.
Peter
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just one simple comment:
Life is full of CHOICES.....
Eva, did you make a choice this morning to get up and out bed or not?
Perhaps the only reason you get up is to eat or go to the bathroom.
A forced choice I must say, but if you decide not to control those urges
to eat and get up to go to the bathroom, then certain consequences will
happen..i.e. yellow sheets, and starvation.
Did you make a chice on getting on internet today? You did if you read this!
Please dont tell me that you are that way by nature....and MUST get onto the
internet.
Peter

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Zoltan Szekely wrote:

> ESB:
> > Peter Soltesz is simply wrong. Sexual responses don't depend on choice.
> Oh, Eva! I know, you had your 2 fauvorite students just out
> of the closet. You remember your own story of the past in the
> FORUM? Whatever happened to them. Both got AIDS and died.
> Poor favourite students of yours.
>
> Anyway, I refuse to believe you. How do you know that these
> responses don't depend on choices? Did you read it in the
> latest tabloid or in a reliable source? (I guess not in any
> of the latter.)
>                                                    Sz. Zoli
>
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Farkas said:
On one hand the government should stop "this over-taxation",  on the other
it should grant salary increases and reduce prices. Are you suggesting they
just print more money?

Gabor D. Farkas

NO I am not...I am suggesting that they stop spending so much.
BTW..it is by edict that they have placed huge tariffs on i mports and
large tax rates on individuals and businesses. By lowering these
not only could the people afford stuff better, but it would allow
the small businesses to grow and move the country along. Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>[...] Stop this over taxation
> and reduce the prices so that the citizens of Hungary can actually afford
> to buy things!!!!

 How does a capitalist government reduce prices, pray tell?
 If you significantly reduce taxation then deficit would explode, which
has always produced hyperinflation in the history of market economies -
are you suggesting that Hungary should bet its future on yet another
grandiose untested theory unlikely to succeed?

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

eva sez:

>Dogs are not at all discriminating when the time is appropriate. Bitches
>(the name of the female dog in "dog language") are in heat twice a year. A
>bitch in heat will mount another bitch and they can amuse themselves for
>hours. When a bitch is in season and you don't want to have an "accident,"
>you keep the males (plainly known as dogs [as opposed to bitches]) out of
>the pen. The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
>to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
>again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
>shocked. By now, I just laugh.

not only that but i once knew a dog that was quite distinctly gay. a male
that was only interested in mounting other males.

human beings are not animals, however biological urges are biological
urges. one does not choose to be gay, it just happens. and seeing as we are
not animals, it is time to stop beating up on people for something that
just happens.

among my friends, some of the longest lasting relationships have been among
people of the same sex. it is ridiculous to consider that same-sex couples
do not have recourse to the same services and respect accorded to couples
of opposing genders. ridiculous. the quality, or value of a human life is
not dependent on sexual orientation. nor should the quality or value of
human affection be so circumscribed.

and on another topic (?)

hey eva, what kind of dogs do you breed?

i just acquired a bouvier des flandres pup and he the greatest! i tried to
get a komondor but i could not find one i could afford, so i got the next
best thing :-)

regards
ef


> ----------------------------------------------------
                        NWHQ
             http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/
> ----------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 24 Aug 1996, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

> Gabor Farkas said:
> On one hand the government should stop "this over-taxation",  on the other
> it should grant salary increases and reduce prices. Are you suggesting they
> just print more money?
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>
> NO I am not...I am suggesting that they stop spending so much.

 But, you see, much of the spending is supporting some people's income: in
the form of still supporting some money-losing factories (which should be
done awya better sooner than later IMHO - but this appeared even less
popular than having some increase in inflation), in the form of social
security, or in the form of much-needed welfare. Another big chunk goes to
servicing the country's debt - I know your dream is to just stop doing
that, but that is likely to cause runaway inflation AND a collapse of the
economy leading to few people afforing anything, particularly import
products to be hit hardest by Hungary going bankrupt.
 Then there is militay spending - the only sector of the budget not cut
to the bone like the rest. Are you saying that should be dramatically
decreased too? Notice that this, again, would result in immediately
lowering (or losing altogether) many people's salaries - not that I
personally wouldn't like that money rather paid in productive industries...

> BTW..it is by edict that they have placed huge tariffs on i mports
 They have just lowered some tariffs I believe. In any event I do not
think that they are much higher than the western norm - you wouldn't
happen to have actual numbers, would you?
 The main reason for high import prices seems to be twofold. One is the
continuing weakness of the national currency - something that the
suggested cure of letting deficit balloon further would only make worse.
The other is simply supply and demand: the industry badly needs foreign
parts so they are made pay hard; and for the customer goods the buying
power of the lower-income strata is unattractive, so they are targeted to
the rich who could and would pay a lot. Looks to me like even with zero
taxes most imports would be unaffordable to most people!

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On  Thu Aug 22 10:57:17 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #767 Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 06:08 PM 8/21/96 EDT, Csaba Zoltani wrote in connection with Lukacs's
>role in the execution of soldiers, running away from the Romanians in 1919:
>
>>In a military organisation, a commander is responsible for what he and his
>>subordinates do or fail to do. Commissar Lukacs was in charge. It was
>>under his command that eight of his men were executed. The
>>responsibility is unequivocal.
>
>        If you are basing your statement on the documents you provided a few
>days ago, I don't understand how you can be so sure that (1) Lukacs was the
>commander and (2) he was responsible for the decision to execute the
>run-away soldiers. Up to now the only thing I read--in the documents you
>provided and in books I consulted--that he was the political commissar of an
>army unit, fighting the Romanians at the Tisza river. Lukacs, as far as I
>know, had no military training. In fact, he spent the war years (1912-1918,
>to be precise) in Heidelberg, and, therefore, I suspect that he was exempt
>from military service. I can't imagine that anyone would trust someone with
>no military training to command a fairly large army unit. On the other hand,
>I find it perfectly reasonable that he was named "political commissar."
>
>        The Lukacs quotation Csaba provided gives another clue that Lukacs
>was not the commanding officer of the troops because he mentions a certain
>Sarai-Szabo, "a good communist," with whom he discussed the matter.
>Therefore, I suspect that Sarai-Szabo, the good communist, was in charge.

 ----------------<snip>---------

>        Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh can be excused for not knowing that in a communist armed force it
is the political officer, not the nominal commander who is actually in
charge.  His situation was akin to the Party secretary in civilian
enterprises (offices, factories, ministries, etc.)  His -- or occasionally,
her -- job was to make sure that the directives of the Party are carried out
above all other considerations.  As the representative of the Party, s/he
could be a total ignoramus regarding the particular enterprise, yet exercised
absolute control over policies and their execution.  No one serving under
such a setup would have any illusions about who is the real boss.

So, under these circumstances we can -- as Csaba did -- venture to say that
Lukacs was (de facto) in charge of the unit in question.  It was obviously
his decision to set an example by decimating his troops.  Whether or not one
can agree with the practice, the responsibility clearly lay with Lukacs.

Ferenc

P.S.  As I recall, the original debate was not over the practice of
decimation, but about Lukacs -- the philosopher and would-be humanist --
being capable of ordering some of his soldiers to be shot.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:12 PM 8/23/96 -0300, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

<snip>
>Well, for example - a couple of incidents from a trip to Paris in 1972.

<snip>
>This may not apply to the French outside of Paris, but the Parisians are
>well known to be arrogant.

It's rather interesting that 'incidents' from a trip taken 24 years ago
could still propel you to make such sweeping statements about the French.
Have you had an "incident free" life since?  I'd really like to know.

If you're going to travel, may I suggest you go as part of a tour, or a
group, or something like that, so that you can stay at tourist compounds.  I
know people who've gone to places like Jamaica and they've stayed at
compounds.  As part of the package deal the hotel/spa or whatever, even
provided them with a "Jamaica Night", which meant that they enjoyed Jamaican
food and music, right in the hotel.  Upon their return to Canada, they
talked about Jamaican food, culture, and music as if they were experts.

I'm sure if you go to Hungary, IBUSZ, could show you the country in 24
hours.  Give it a try, will ya?  You could become an expert on Hungary.  By
the way, the 24 hour deal includes three meals and washroom stops.  What
else could you ask for?

Joe Szalai

"Americans are rather like bad Bulgarian wine: they don't travel well."
             Bernard Falk
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:11 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Yes you are right. In Hungary for example (unlike the USA) men can
>hug, kiss, caress in public and is expected from relatives.
>I would be considered rude IF I did not kiss my uncles, grandfathers,
>fathers, or my close friends. Here it would be looked upon as strange.
>And one does kiss these relatives in private and public.
>
>However, I beove that you may be confusing LOVE with sex. I love
>my uncles, etc. but never think of having sex with them! Perhaps that
>is the difference between a healthy love and what I think you described.
>Peter

I don't think Mark was talking about incest, my dear.  Why am I not
surprised that you're totally clueless as to what Mark was writing about?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: About dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 23:30 23/08/96 +0200,  Janos Zsargo wrote:
>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>        I as a dog breeder can attest to that. What do you mean: "even"?
>>Dogs are not at all discriminating when the time is appropriate.

<snippety snip>
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>
>Thanks Eva for the nice biology lesson, however let me ask something. Have
>you ever seen male/female dogs 'amusing themselves' while the opposing sex
>is actually present on the scene and 'accident' would be allowed to happen?
>Also have you seen male/female dogs being 'urged' by the smell of another
>dog with the same sex? If not, your example is simple the analogy of the
>human 'prison homosexuality'.

My thoughts exactly, Janos. Having had virtual menageries of animals over
the years, including tropical fish, hamsters, gerbils, dogs, and cats at
various times, I have come to the conclusion as well that they will often
"amuse themselves" with members of the same sex, but only it appears, when
they do not have access to the opposite sex. To tell you the truth, I had a
male chihuahua one time who seemed very happy to latch onto one's arm or a
leg for, unfortunately for him, he was never allowed to come into intimate
contact with other dogs. Poor thing! A lifetime of constant frustration!

Also, I tend to agree with Tibor Benke's comment that sexuality is a sliding
scale - all the way from homosexuals who would *never* under any
circumstances be able to have a relationship with a member of the opposite
sex, to homosexuals who have had occasional relationships with members of
the opposite sex, to bisexuals, to heterosexuals who have had occasional
homosexual encounters and then to heterosexuals who would *never* under any
circumstances be able to have a relationship with a member of the same sex.

I tend to think that for most homosexuals there is an element of choice
involved. And I also think there are some people who seem to have been
*born* that way. On the other hand, I do think that one's early experiences
with relationships and success or lack thereof may influence one's eventual
orientation. I also think that it is possible for a person to change over
time, as he or she matures. In that sense, I think it is a mistake to
*label* people. This tends to force them into a mold, into a stereotype,
when the reality may be far more complex. In this sense, I see gay rights as
being divisive, the same quarrel that I have with feminism - that they are
actually ghettoizing their members.

Another two fillers worth. . .

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>
>>Are the Jews in this punishment also included?Andy
>Yes of course!
>
>Would you please,please enlighten me why 6 million where killed?Most
probaly they were innocent people,was God that angry at them?
Andy.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Why not Hungarians:Andy.
>
>Why not Andy?  Perhaps you can show us all how the Hungarians are all
>good and sinless -- perhaps you may find some that are or some that arent.
>Peter
>
>So why didn't you include them in your selection?
Andy.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Tibor Benk's interesting reply was good to read.
>Tibor, you brought up some ideas that may or maynot be fy=ully correct.
>The taboo for example in the Catholic Church is NOT to have any birth
>control (although nature has given women some protection agains being
>constantly pregnant -- but no protection against rape [ a criminal act].
>
Sorry, Come again?   In the Catholic Church what I, as a student of
anthropology call a taboo, is often called a sin.  That is, when the social
science that was the handmaiden of colonialism encountered "natives" who
had certain prohibited kinbds of behavior, different from those of the
coloizers, that prohibition was called a "taboo" from the polynesian for,
"you better not do that or the gods'll get you", or something like that.
There are few universal taboos.  Incest may be one, but the definition of
which kin must be avoided varies with the kinship system.  The prohibition
against homosexuality is not universal.  It is the tribal taboo of people
who come from the Abrahamic tradition, what Islamic people call, "people of
the Book, or worshippers of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel,
and going back further, It may be a Mesopotamian legacy.  These societies
designed themselves for regular intermittent warfare, thus raising the next
generation of what we would call, "cannon fodder", was a matter of cultural
survival, so a taboo like that is not unexpected.  Nevertheless, or maybe,
thus less agressive societies can do without the taboo on homosexuality and
some societies actually give homosexuals special status, and train them to
be shamans - "two hearted people".

>I find it interesting that you define some of this as taboos (as in
>tribalistic) yet I want to share with you an experiement with newly
>born puppies, cats, and other animals of sort. They place them on a
>checkerboard square that have alternae black & white boxes with a big
>chasms between one end and the other. Apparently only a few day old puppies
>actually fall. ALL of the others actually stop to prevent them from falling
>down this three foot deep chasm. No one has tought them to be afraid, yet
>they have this natural fear.
>
>So if you want to go ahead and break all the taboos, please do go ahead.
>Some of us have certain innate fears or knowledge that certain things are
>not to be.


Instinctive fears and socially constructed inhibition may function
similarly, but only a person totally ignorant of anthropology would confuse
the two.  "Szezon" & "Fazon" and all that.

Zoli Fekete is probably right about this topic not suiting the profile of
this list, except that it seems that most Hungarians seem a bit behind on
it.

Personally, I am heterosexual.  When I was a young man, I was propositioned
a few times, I declined reffering to my orientation, and there were no
problems.  I felt a little embarrassed, but no more then if a woman I was
not attracted to had propositioned me -- a little akward turning someone
down but no big deal.  I can't for the life of me understand what bothers
so many people so much.  Someone, a gay friend, suggested that people who
aren't sure about their own orientation exhibit the most hostility.

Tibor Benke

+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:01 a.m. 8/24/96  Peter Soltesz wrote about the economic policies of
the Hungarian government and its results.  Among other things, he asked:

>  This is grinding away
>at the Hungarian people's patience....are they looking for another
>revolution?  The country has been raped enough!

Yes!  That is exactly what they are looking for.  I may be paranoid, but
when I look at politics around the world, none of it makes any sense except
if you assume that evil forces are deliberately trying to make things
awful.  Someone said that one should not use conspiracy for an explanation
if stupidity  will do, but what is happening in the Balkans and Central
Europe (or the Middle East, for that matter) is more then can be explained
by stupidity.

Tibor Benke

+ - Re: megale Moravia. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is in response to both responses by Liviu to my quotes from sources in
regard to Moravia.

In the last few days I went through Bowlus, once. If afteer rereading and
checking more of his references I change my mind, I will fess up.

Now, first of all I want to state that I have an engineering training, and
that means being used to discounting many of the "but if, than it could
also be" start following by a "therefore" or a "must". If I had time, the
process would look like a series of columns listing the various locations
of ancient Moravia and listing both the pros and the cons and separately
the "maybes" for either direction. The major problem I have with Bowles
type treatments that an initial hypothesis is later converted into a fact
and treated as such.

The book is very interesting but it obviously started out with a
preconcieved notion and thereafter everything is treated from only one
viewpoint. It reminds me of one of the Oxford debates, with only one side's
case presented. At least as far as I am concerned that is not exactly
history yet. The Greek and oriental sources are missing except for the DAI
on which generally the debate starts. But even some of the DAI is thrown
out when it is not convenient to the argument. An example, the DAI clearly
talks about a southern Croatia and Serbia and less well described northern
ones. Therefore why would it be an impossibility to have Obrodites also
both in the north and in the south. (it really appears that the Avars may
have sliced through various tribes of the Slavs pushing some parts of
several tribes to the north and some to the south).

I also think that Bowles underestimated the extent of the Bulgarian
involvement in the area. The near total disregard for any archeological
data is a major fault of the book. While I believe that it is extremly
difficult to presume history solely on archeological basis, its exclusion
can be a fatal flaw also.

In my opinion there is also to much emphasis placed on the Ister(Hister)
and Danube issues and the e emphasis is used only when it is convenient to
Bowlus, as an example if the lower Danube is Ister and Pribina was expelled
from a southern realm then why does the Coversio states that "Priwina
exaltus a Moimaro duce Maravorum supra Danubium" which according to Bowlus
referrs only to upper Danube. As the saying goes one can't have a cake and
eat it too.

Another problem I have with the geographical descriptions in relation to
water availability between the Danube and the Tisza rivers. My father
happened to be from Kiskunhalas between the two rivers. Even in my
childhood days, the area was surrounded by reeds and swamps. It was also a
major cenetr of the Cuman settlements and nomads do not prefer deserts.
There was a lot of water and grass avilable between the two rivers. That
was also one of the reasons for the survival of some of the Alfold
communities during the Turkish wars and occupation.

There are consistency problems also. If the occupation of Szombathely was
important because it was a junction of some Roman roads, then why later it
is stated as a fact that Szombathely controlled the southeast leading road.
In fact it controlled the north leading roads also.

Sources which are contrary to the "proposition of southern Moravia" are
mostly excluded. An example is the description of eastern Europe from
Alfred the Great which clearly states that between Carendre (Carinthia) and
the Pulgara (Bulgarians) there is only the fields. It also describes
Maroaralande as neighboring the Wisle land and the Dalamensam (Dalaminci),
both of these being north of the Carpatians.

Anyway, I am not convinced by Bowles treatment of the issue. maybe once I
retire and have time for my hobby, will try to, if I will still live, to
do "scholarly" work on this. In the meantime let's just settle that even
when based partially on the same sources, we disagree.

I will be home only for four days until the last part of September. My
trips will take me to where I may be able to hunt for some more info, so it
will not be waste from this discussion standpoint either. It will be an
interesting trip, particularly if Hugh does not drink all the beer in
Prague.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - research for article (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

We are researching an article on the impact of E-mail on students.
We would be grateful if you could answer the following questions.
If you like you can provide a contact telephone number so we can
talk further.

How often do you log in?

To what extend do you find relationships change because of the use of
E-mail as opposed to
telephone?

Do you only mail people you have met in person?


Do you find the Net preferable to communicate than to speak in person?

Does E-mail provide the opportunity for you to socially say certain
things you would not usually say, or contact people you would not
usually contact?

How has E-mail effected your University experience?


Thank you for your help

Tamsin Irwin
mailto: j.e. 
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:33 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

(after quoting Eva Balogh's reaction to Z. Szekely's questioning whether
homosexuality is a choice or not)
>Just one simple comment:
>Life is full of CHOICES.....
>Eva, did you make a choice this morning to get up and out bed or not?
>Perhaps the only reason you get up is to eat or go to the bathroom.
>A forced choice I must say, but if you decide not to control those urges
>to eat and get up to go to the bathroom, then certain consequences will
>happen..i.e. yellow sheets, and starvation.
>Did you make a chice on getting on internet today? You did if you read this!
>Please dont tell me that you are that way by nature....and MUST get onto the
>internet.

First of all I find it strange to compare sexuality with getting out of bed
or with getting on the Internet.  My understanding is, however, that sexual
urges are comparable to other instincts (like eating) and without them we
probably wouldn't be discussing them.

Also, it is difficult for me to imagine that after seeing others being
killed, beaten to a pulp, ridiculed, excommunicated, etc., etc., one would
choose to be a homosexual.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: About dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I just love this.  Here we have another thread about homosexuality and this
time it's cleverly disguised as a discussion "about dogs".

At 01:32 PM 8/24/96 -0300, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>My thoughts exactly, Janos. Having had virtual menageries of animals over
>the years, including tropical fish, hamsters, gerbils, dogs, and cats at
>various times, I have come to the conclusion as well that they will often
>"amuse themselves" with members of the same sex, but only it appears, when
>they do not have access to the opposite sex.

Yes, most, but not all, animal species appear to be exclusively
heterosexual.  Then again, most animals are not monogamous.  I think it's
for the birds, and for some humans.  In fact, most think that monogamy is a
type of dark wood that has to be polished once in a while.

>To tell you the truth, I had a
>male chihuahua one time who seemed very happy to latch onto one's arm or a
>leg for, unfortunately for him, he was never allowed to come into intimate
>contact with other dogs. Poor thing! A lifetime of constant frustration!

Never mind the poor dog!  What about your arm and leg?

>Also, I tend to agree with Tibor Benke's comment that sexuality is a sliding
>scale - all the way from homosexuals who would *never* under any
>circumstances be able to have a relationship with a member of the opposite
>sex, to homosexuals who have had occasional relationships with members of
>the opposite sex, to bisexuals, to heterosexuals who have had occasional
>homosexual encounters and then to heterosexuals who would *never* under any
>circumstances be able to have a relationship with a member of the same sex.

Don't confuse the sliding scale with people.  I don't think people slide at
all.  All one does, or can do, is acknowledge what always was.  Sexual
experimentation is just that.  It's experimentation, not orientation!

>I tend to think that for most homosexuals there is an element of choice
>involved.

You may think that, but that's as ridiculous as if I said that for most
heterosexuals there is an element of choice involved.

>And I also think there are some people who seem to have been
>*born* that way.

Do you mean some people were born not to be the way they are?

>On the other hand, I do think that one's early experiences
>with relationships and success or lack thereof may influence one's eventual
>orientation.

So, every 'potential heterosexual' is up for grabs, as it were, by
homosexuals.  Don't tell this to Peter Soltesz.  He already seems to be in a
frenzy.

>I also think that it is possible for a person to change over
>time, as he or she matures.

I don't.  What you think is change is probably nothing more, or less, than
comming to terms with own's true nature, whatever that might be.  The
"change", if there is any, is from dishonesty to honesty.

>In that sense, I think it is a mistake to
>*label* people.

I think it's a mistake to *label* people.  Period.

>This tends to force them into a mold, into a stereotype,
>when the reality may be far more complex.

I have no problem agreeing with that.

>In this sense, I see gay rights as
>being divisive, the same quarrel that I have with feminism - that they are
>actually ghettoizing their members.

What do you know?  I agree with you.  However, do you have a better
solution?  In an ideal world gay rights and feminism would be redundant.
However, we have a long way to go before we reach that ideal world.  And
when we do, people like me will be very miserable because we won't have
anything to argue about.

Joe Szalai

"Social movements are at once the symptoms and the instruments of progress.
Ignore them and statesmanship is irrelevant; fail to use them and it is weak."
           Walter Lippmann
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>A. Alvu wrights:
>The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
>most the Western Civilization.
>I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.


>George Szaszvari answers:>
>..Western civilization owes its existence to the pre-Christian Greeks.
>Remove the Greeks and the whole intellectual, cultural and historical
>basis for Western Civilization disappears.

-
Of course if was no earth was no Western Civilization

Yes, if the battle of Thermopile of Marathon was lost.

The last 500 years has more impact on the Western Civilization
then all the previous time. There is a quantitative element involved.

A. Albu
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>>A. Albu writes:
>>The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
>>most the Western Civilization.
>>I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.

>>George Szaszvari answers:>
>>..Western civilization owes its existence to the pre-Christian Greeks.
>>Remove the Greeks and the whole intellectual, cultural and historical
>>basis for Western Civilization disappears.

A. Albu tries to move the goalposts with:
>Of course if was no earth was no Western Civilization
>Yes, if the battle of Thermopile of Marathon was lost.
>The last 500 years has more impact on the Western Civilization
>then all the previous time. There is a quantitative element involved.

Getting back to A. Albu's original assertion:
Remove the last 500 years and there is still a legacy of Western
Civilization up to 500 years ago...remove the Greeks and there
would be nothing (as we know it today). You are clearly impressed
by the Italian contribution to Western Civilization. I am too, but
if you want to champion the Italian cause, then it might be better
to rephrase your original question.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> assumes the position and bugles out:

>
>I think your fear and concern is misplaced.  I think that what you're
really
>afraid of is the continued spread of Spanish in the United States.  Just
own
>up to it, Sam.
>
>And I'm not speaking out of my rear end.  That's just the sensation you
>experience when you have your ear butted against my ... well, butt.  As
for
>"assuming the position", just keep in mind that if you fart upwind, only
you
>benefit.
>
>Joe Szalai

I wondered why you had such a deep bass voice and poor enunciation. It
would be impossible for me or anyone else to get their heads near your
butt even if we wanted to since your head stays wedged in there most of
the time. Anyway, I have expressed neither fear nor concern. That's all a
product of your own fevered imagination. And you have now entered your
usual stage of blathering hither and yon, unable to make any valid points,
yet unwilling to diminish the volume of noisy wind leaving your body at
such a rapid rate. We're gonna start calling you the Ontario Clipper.
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:01 AM 8/24/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>My cousin just arrived back from Hungary on a visit.
>He said that while he enjoyed his trip, things wer
>very expensive there. He cannot understand how people
>earning a living (or trying to) can survive.

>What is the Hungarian government doing about this?? Nothing!
>Instead of making it easier for Hungarians to live and eat and
>travel, one needs not two jobs but three! It is high time for the
>government of Hungary to wake up and slash those prices.


        Golly, Peter, you sound as if you have never left existing
socialism. Thank God the Hungarian government no longer responsible for
setting prices or slashing them.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>>A. Albu writes:
>>The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
>>most the Western Civilization.
>>I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.

>>George Szaszvari answers:>
>>..Western civilization owes its existence to the pre-Christian Greeks.
>>Remove the Greeks and the whole intellectual, cultural and historical
>>basis for Western Civilization disappears.

A. Albu tries to move the goalposts with:
>Of course if was no earth was no Western Civilization
>Yes, if the battle of Thermopile of Marathon was lost.
>The last 500 years has more impact on the Western Civilization
>then all the previous time. There is a quantitative element involved.

>George Szaszvari argues
>Getting back to A. Albu's original assertion:
>Remove the last 500 years and there is still a legacy of Western
>Civilization up to 500 years ago...remove the Greeks and there
>would be nothing (as we know it today). You are clearly impressed
>by the Italian contribution to Western Civilization. I am too, but>>you >want
to champion the Italian cause, then it might be better
>to rephrase your original question.
______________

George Szaszvari.

I believe you have moved the goal post to the Greeks. As a causality
argument you are right. I was referring to the quantum of what we call
Western Civilization. If you speak about the quantum of values we define
as Western Civilization then you are wrong.


A. Albu
--
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete says:
 How does a capitalist government reduce prices, pray tell?

>>

1- Are they capitalists now???? Far be it for me to say that is true or
false. I wouldnot bet my bottom dollar on their capitalism. They havent
yet graduated from the communists schools into elementary capitalism.

2- A free economy government does not have 100+% import duties on practically
everything.

3- STOP spending so much on things.
4- What happened to all that privatization money and slaes of Hungary's
assets??  Pray tell do tell me that!
Peter
+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:24:26 -0400, Andy Kozma >
wrote:

[.....]
>>
>>I just came back from my fourth trip to Toronto (spread over 20
>>years). I cannot think of a more civilized and pleasant city! What a
>>delight to visit. Most impressive are the competence and kindness of
>>service workers, the order, and the safety on the streets.
>>
>>You are lucky, Andy, to live there. Please don't tell me that that's
>>just the Downtown....:-)

>Hello Bandi:I am quite happy you enjoyed your visit to Toronto.I can assure
>you,it is not only the dowtown area wich is so civilised.We are quite proud
>of our Greater Toronto area,wich inhabits arround 4 million people.You could
>find all the colours,religions,nationality etc.here and we realy try to live
>in peace with all of them.
>You could heare very seldom any race or religion realated incident.Most of
>the time
>we blame the politicians,peacefully,and the weather for all the
>inconviniences,sometimes we beef about emigration,but then more important
>things appear,like making a living.
>Hope this was not your last visit,and in case you do it again,just give me a
>call and I show you more of our City.
>Regards:Andy.
>
>P.S.:just give me a shout in advance.
>>

We (my wife accompanied me for the APA convention) traveled as far as
the subway took us. The subway was an other pleasant experience. Had
dinner at 4 different Hungarian restaurants. Saw Cirque du Soleil (not
to be missed!). The weather was perfect.

Thanks for the invitation. Will take you up on it at first
opportunity.

Regards,

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete says:
 The main reason for high import prices seems to be twofold. One is the
continuing weakness of the national currency - something that the
suggested cure of letting deficit balloon further would only make worse.
The other is simply supply and demand: the industry badly needs foreign
parts so they are made pay hard; and for the customer goods the buying
power of the lower-income strata is unattractive, so they are targeted to
the rich who could and would pay a lot. Looks to me like even with zero
taxes most imports would be unaffordable to most people!
>> Tell me why one can get say a Norelco (Philips) shaver in NY or DC or LA
model 950RX for about $80 and it costs 2x in Budapest. They are imported
to both contries. Why is gas over $3.80 per US Gallon?? Becasue they TAX
the heck out of it. ---does not help the economy one bit!The reason I
suggest is that the gov't sees this as easy money.  The problem is that
no-one really invests properly in Hungary...instead of the dole for
people (practically unlimited) they should spend time on getting high
tech industries established that will have current and future jobs for
the Hungarians. Instead, they are subsidising evrything -- schoo lucnhes,
worker l=ucnhes, transport, vacation, etc. I believe that the issue is
curable IF:
1- they give evryone an equitable salary to start with
2- stop subsidizing everything
3- continue to support the elderly & retired people
4- train people and support them to get into industry (small businesses)

Unfortunately, they ALL want to ne millionaries tomorrow. So you can see
that restaurants in BP, and many small businesses falter because they
think that they are in Tokyo or somewhere. Did you know that BP has opne
of the highes real estate prices? Why? not because there isnt any real
estate,but rather because of greed. I can show you tons of places that
could be renovated and rented out. Why cant the govt sell or do joint
venture with organizations in BP and elsewhere to have a resonable rate
for hotel rooms??? If they only knew marketing...too bad they have no idea.
It is easier to rip of people (tourist included) than to fix the problems.

Tourism right now would be Hungary's BEST hard currency earner, yet they
do the stupidests things...most other "tourists" countries just laugh!
This myopia, greed, cheating, and not getting you moneys worth will drive
away more tourists than anything else they do! BP has practically become
a business mans town...with fewer and fewer visitors.

How can someone who earns 500Ft per day afforfd to pay 100+Ft for metro
(or more if they have to transfer?). How can someone buy a bag of
potatoes for 3x the price in BP when the potatoes only come from a 20-50
Km away? Yes, cities are more expensive, but I know many Hungarians
families that survive ONLY because they have a little garden or farm and
grow the importnat vegetables, etc. else they would starve to death on
the money they get/earn!One basic point is that all subsidies are paid
for by someone. If those someones cannot pay, then it aint going to help
the country any more to raise the tax rates even more. This is a very
fundamental economic issue. Proven over and over (even John Kennedy) that
when you reduce taxes the govts income goes UP!

Peter S.
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva B. said:
Golly, Peter, you sound as if you have never left existing
socialism. Thank God the Hungarian government no longer responsible for
setting prices or slashing them.

        Eva Balogh
Dear Eva:
I beg to differ with you. The govt in Hungary sets lots of things that
most wetsern democracies have limited already.
1- Taxes (VAT)
2- Import Duties
3- Import Taxes
4- Gasoline taxes
5- Transportation prices
6- Fuel and energy prices
7- Basic raw material prices.

Here is an example for you: There is a Hungarian paper manufacturer in BP
(Csepel) that manufactures paper products. Do you know that it has extreme
difficulty in competing with foreign paper. It is cheaper to bring in
foreign print papepr (Xerox copy paper) than to make it in Hungary.
The price of the paaper is MORE fr0o Hungarian manufatured product than
to import it from Austria lets say. Why???? Not because they are doing a
bad job, it is because the govt has ridiculous regulations and the cost
of raw papaer product (with taxes, duties...etc.) make it cost more.
Please tell me why you think that there are NO rpice controls in Hungary.
Yes my dear Eva I have been out of Communism quite a while (thank God!)
but what I see in Hungary is at best called Pinks instead of Reds because
they have yet to learn and allow REAL free-market democratic economics in
Hungary.
Peter
+ - Re: Futyulos barack meg bogatya. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:24 AM 8/25/96 +0200, Zsargo Janos wrote:

>J.Szalai wrote:
>
>>Anna Bayer's observation, which I posted on her behalf yesterday, was quite
>>interesting.  She said that in the Diaspora Museum in Tel-Aviv, many
>>'Hungarians' were pictured among famous Jewish musicians, scientists, etc.
>>I have no doubt that this is the case.  And if we were to add up the
>>contributions that Jews made to western culture, they may, in fact, come out
>>on top.  And, if I may be so bold as to add the contributions of another
>>oppressed group, homosexuals, many European ultra nationalists would be left
>>scratching their heads at the dearth of contributions by 'real' national
>>personalities.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Joe, you should not have posted Anna Bayer's observation, now you could have
>saved the post above. You just simple refer to rabbi Landeszman, he
>basically told the same, but more clearly. As far as I know he told in the
>hungarian parliament, that if jews pull out all of their contribution to the
>Hungarian culture no more would remain than the 'bogatya' and the 'futyulos
>barack' (~brandy). Anna Bayer just was a little bit polite, making sugar cover
>around the sour pill. Now Joe went further and he wants to take our panthallos
> and
>drinks, too! That is sad.
>
>J.Zs
>
>P.S: If you want to know how antisemitism is born, just read Landeszman, if yo
u
>want to know how homophobia is born ...........

Come on Janos, don't misrepresent what I wrote.  I used words like, "if",
"may", "bold", and "'real'".  Those words should have made it clear that my
comments were speculative and fanciful.  I was not stating facts.  But that
doesn't matter because you want to show that you were hurt by my comments.
And your 'hurt' feelings allow you to put the blame on the victim.  The Jew
becomes responsible for anti-semitism, the homosexual becomes responsible
for homophobia, etc., etc..  Well, I don't buy it, and I don't buy your hurt
feelings either.

>Now Joe went further and he wants to take our panthallos and drinks, too!
>That is sad.

Why would I want to take anything?  If I were taking anything, I would be
taking it from myself, too.  Don't you understand that.  Don't forget that
my heritage is Hungarian.  And I'm damn proud of it, too!

Joe Szalai

"No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent,
rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots."
                Barbara Ehrenreich
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, A Albu >
writes:

>The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
>most the Western Civilization.
>
>I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.
>
>
>A. Albu

What, are you nuts? Try Lichtenstein.
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:49 PM 8/24/96 -0400, "Peter A. Soltesz" > wrote:

>Dear Eva:
>I beg to differ with you. The govt in Hungary sets lots of things that
>most wetsern democracies have limited already.
>1- Taxes (VAT)
>2- Import Duties
>3- Import Taxes
>4- Gasoline taxes
>5- Transportation prices
>6- Fuel and energy prices
>7- Basic raw material prices.
>
>Here is an example for you: There is a Hungarian paper manufacturer in BP
>(Csepel) that manufactures paper products. Do you know that it has extreme
>difficulty in competing with foreign paper. It is cheaper to bring in
>foreign print papepr (Xerox copy paper) than to make it in Hungary.
>The price of the paaper is MORE fr0o Hungarian manufatured product than
>to import it from Austria lets say. Why???? Not because they are doing a
>bad job, it is because the govt has ridiculous regulations and the cost
>of raw papaer product (with taxes, duties...etc.) make it cost more.
>Please tell me why you think that there are NO rpice controls in Hungary.
>Yes my dear Eva I have been out of Communism quite a while (thank God!)
>but what I see in Hungary is at best called Pinks instead of Reds because
>they have yet to learn and allow REAL free-market democratic economics in
>Hungary.
>Peter

Thank you, Peter.

I'm so glad you've stopped debating that sexual orientation thing.  Besides,
you're so much better at economic problem solving.  I guess you're in your
natural element when you're discussing economic issues.

You should be careful though.  I don't think that your "my dear Eva" comment
is going to fly.  Just a thought...  Because you never know...

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:49 PM 8/24/96 -0400, "Peter A. Soltesz" > wrote:
>
>>Dear Eva:
>>I beg to differ with you. The govt in Hungary sets lots of things that
>>most wetsern democracies have limited already.
>>1- Taxes (VAT)
>>2- Import Duties
>>3- Import Taxes
>>4- Gasoline taxes
>>5- Transportation prices
>>6- Fuel and energy prices
>>7- Basic raw material prices.

I've got news for you: all taxes in the US are set by the various
governments (federal, state and local). In many (most?) metropolitan areas
public transportation prices are set by quasi-governmental transportation
authorities.

Fuel, energy and basic raw material prices are indeed set by the free
market. I agree with you that these sectors should be privatized and then
the situation would become the same in Hungary.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Futyulos barack meg bogatya. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

J.Szalai wrote:

>Anna Bayer's observation, which I posted on her behalf yesterday, was quite
>interesting.  She said that in the Diaspora Museum in Tel-Aviv, many
>'Hungarians' were pictured among famous Jewish musicians, scientists, etc.
>I have no doubt that this is the case.  And if we were to add up the
>contributions that Jews made to western culture, they may, in fact, come out
>on top.  And, if I may be so bold as to add the contributions of another
>oppressed group, homosexuals, many European ultra nationalists would be left
>scratching their heads at the dearth of contributions by 'real' national
>personalities.
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe, you should not have posted Anna Bayer's observation, now you could have
saved the post above. You just simple refer to rabbi Landeszman, he
basically told the same, but more clearly. As far as I know he told in the
hungarian parliament, that if jews pull out all of their contribution to the
Hungarian culture no more would remain than the 'bogatya' and the 'futyulos
barack' (~brandy). Anna Bayer just was a little bit polite, making sugar cover
around the sour pill. Now Joe went further and he wants to take our panthallos
 and
drinks, too! That is sad.

J.Zs

P.S: If you want to know how antisemitism is born, just read Landeszman, if you
want to know how homophobia is born ...........

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