Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 957
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-04-02
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Numerus..... (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: [Fwd: Magyar Klise'k] (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
4 Lippai's most intelligent self proclamation to date (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Husveti udvozlet,Easter Greetings (mind)  91 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
7 Packo's Hot Dogs (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Numerus..... (mind)  97 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Numerus....... (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Numerus..... (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: [Fwd: Magyar Klise'k] (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
18 New Hungarian Films (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Packo's Hot Dogs (mind)  116 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Numerus..... (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
23 HL-Action: letter to AL GORE (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Packo's Hot Dogs (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: HL-Action: letter to AL GORE (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
26 HTMH-Croatia (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
27 HTMH-Croatia (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Packo's Hot Dogs (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
30 Falu végén kurta kocsma (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Numerus..... (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Numerus..... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:00 AM 4/1/97 -0400, Bandi wrote:

<snip>
>How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
>on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
>for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?

Excuse me, Bandi, but didn't you once sport a signature that said: "Pain is
inevitable.  Suffering is optional"?  Well, the above description seems an
awful lot like 'national suffering'.  It sounds like a myth.  And I don't
buy it.  I feel Hungarian but I don't experience "the psyche of a nation
that has been stomped on for a thousand years".  That feeling is optional,
is it not?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: [Fwd: Magyar Klise'k] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai - getting impatient:-), thus reposting Magyar Klise'k of several
days ago (as below)

Hali Joe!

Could it be, that your signature is deterring people from responding?  Or,
could it be, that once one is put to task, one tends to draw a real blank.
(for me, the latter applies).  Give my mind a chance .....:-)
Best regards
Aniko


>Yesterday I ended one of my posts with an obvious cliche'.  I usually don't
>use cliche's so I started thinking about them.  I was trying to think of
>some Hungarian cliche's but couldn't.  Can anyone on this list help?  If
>you can, please give an English translation.  Also, does anyone know of
>cliche's that are used in both languages?
>
>Just so we're talking about the same thing, I'll define cliche'.
>
>A cliche' is a trite or overused expression or idea.
>It's an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through
>overuse.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>The cliche' organizes life; it expropriates people's identity; it becomes
>ruler, defense lawyer, judge, and the law.
>              -- Va'clav Havel
>
>
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:47 AM 3/31/97 +1000, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:

>I think it is a very complex issue. Over a matter of centuries the gipsies
>represented a life-style and a world view diametrically opposite to the
hopes >of the other people living there whether in the country or in the
towns.
>The gipsies were nomads

So were the Huns and the Magyars, at one time.

>They carried lice and the people in any district where they camped were in
>terror of typhoid and other epidemics against which the gipsies were
partly >immune but which they spread.

Who didn't carry lice?  And don't forget that most people carry disease to
which they are immune.  This is not a gypsy thing.

>They were a nightmare for public health workers. Their children because of
>their nomadic life-style did not attend school and this at a time when
>compulsory education was being enforced in the countryside.

When did education become compulsory?  And why were the Gypsies nomadic at
that time?  Actually, I don't believe that they were nomadic late last
century.  They moved on because they weren't wanted.  There was no place
for them in Hungarian society.  Might it not be more accurate to call them
refugees, rather than nomads?

>For the law enforcers the gipsies were a useful scapegoat but with good
cause. >A large percentage of robberies, petty theft, petty fraud etc., was
perpetrated >by gipsies moving through a district.

They didn't have many other career opportunities, did they?  What would you
have done if you were in their shoes?

Do they get all the blame?

<snip>
>I am sorry if all this sounds anti-gipsy but with the best will I have not
been >able to write positive things about them. Maybe someone else can.

It doesn't sound anti-gypsy.  It sounds defeatist.  You acknowledge that
there's a problem, but you just throw up your hands.  Hungarians have been
doing that for hundreds of years.  When's it going to end?  When will there
be a genuine reconciliation of the two peoples?

Were Gypsies Europe's first 'Pakis'?

Joe Szalai
+ - Lippai's most intelligent self proclamation to date (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>In article >, "Istvan Lippai"
> writes:
>
>>He  gets all the dirt he needs on Hungarians, mostly fabricated, from Eva
>>Balogh.
>>
>>Concerning you, and some of you who still think of yourselves Hungarians, I
>>have one bit of advise; if you go to bed with dogs, you will wake up with
>>fleas.
>>
>>Istvan
[...]

Istvan:
I take the above advice to be but a self proclamation of your "species".
Parasites that is.  Must say, it took a while for you spit it out.  But now
that you have, how about commanding that spaceship of yours to another
destination .... we'll keep the dogs; they, individually, have proved
themselves to be far more intelligent for us humans.

Aniko
PS- If you are even remotely considering sending your usually obnoxious
mail to my private address - pls be advised, and forewarned that you're
traveling direct to thrash .... (Thanks to dogs that is.  They've perfected
the technology over parasites).  If you continue to harass me personally,
as per your past practice, I will have no hesitation to drag you from
thrash in order to forward all of you private notes to all of the groups
you are feeding off of, plus some more.  Clear enough for you - Commander
of parasites?
+ - Re: Husveti udvozlet,Easter Greetings (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szombaton delutan, mig vartuk a feltamadast, a varakozasnak
ebbe a szent csendjebe, amikor egy fereg nyikkanasanak a
zaja is harsany; gyalazkodon betort egy goromba hang, mint
egy rossz, kulvarosi kocsmaban -- nemsokra becsulhet minket
ez az ember, hogy igy beszel.
Ez az anyatkaromlo pedig nem is egy olah bandita, hanem ver
az apaim verebol; horgese nem gepen fejlesztett elektronikus
gyalazkodas, de szemelyes a'lparaszti formedveny, annak
kifejezesere, hogy Oszemelyisege most nagyon megbantva erzi
magat. Meglehet. De megtartoztatni es fegyelmezni magat is
lehet.
Egyik gyermekkori emlekem 1944 novemberebol vagy
decemberebol: a Kozkorhaz nogyogyaszati osztalyanak a
varotermeben szorongo, kurettazsra varo asszonyok tomege.
Ott szorongtak felve, imadkozva; mint asszonyok, akik
exorcizmusra varnak, varjak, hogy kiuzik beloluk az ordogot.
Neha ez az exorcizmus nem vezetett sikerre, s Sztalin (aki
meg a kommunista elvekbe is belementette a kozepkori Bizanc
ostoba babonasagat es a kegyetlen, pravoszlav
nacionalizmusat) parancsa, hogy moszkovita sarjjal, a
dicsoseges Voros Hadsereg  eroszakkal es szegyennel torje
meg a legyozott nepek buszkeseget es ontudatat, sikerre
vezetett. Ezektol a sarjaktol varja az ember ezeket a
keleti, hiszterias kifakadasokat ebben a stilusban, es igy
idozitve.
De a kifakadas targyat sem kellett felteni! Valaszaban O nem
karomkodott, hanem mint Istent felo honffy csupan idezte az
"ocsmanysagokat". Istenigazabul, jo magyaroschan,
furkosbotkent lobalva a talajgyokeret es a szoszerinti
idezetet. Felemelo.
S ha mar temanal vagyunk: cseppet sem lelketemelobb
kifinomult torteneszeink, sot tortenesznonk kifakadasai.
Tudatlansagot nem kell sem szegyelleni, sem fejleszteni, es
foleg leplezni. S nem is lehet. Az, hogy valaki elismeteli
ketszer is ket honap (cca.) leforgasa alatt, hogy diplomaja
is van (talan ketto is), az nem bizonyiteka annak, hogy
tudja is hogy mit beszel. Vagy hogy az igazat mondja. Vagy
ha azt is mondja, hogy az valoban ugy igaz. Tudast diploma
felmutatasa nem bizonyit. Az csak azt bizonyitja, hogy onnon
erzete ingadozik, nem biztos magaban, fedezek moge buvik.
Nagy kar. Sok ertelmes dolgot olvastam tole, az alaptetele
tobbnyire helyes, de a kovetkezteteseitol ments meg Uram
minket! Ha nem probalna magyarazni, hogy mit ert, mi alatt,
ha megnezne, ellenorizne az adatait - akar statisztikai akar
eletrajzi adatokrol van szo -, s ha megnezte, ne
kornyezetukbol (tartalmukbol) es ertelmukbol kiforgatva
ta'lalna, hm, akkor sokkal ertekesebbek lennenek
megjegyzesei. Sajnos Andicsot es Molnart nehez lekapcsolni.
Mint tortenesznek es sociologusnak, nagyon ajanlanam Michael
Polanyi: "Personal Knowledge" c. filozofiai elmefuttatasat,
ami ugyancsak kaphato Amazonon keresztul.
Azt is ajanlanam a kisasszonykanak, hogy menjen el kapalni,
egyelni pitymalattol az esti harangszoig, es utana
pontifikaljon csak a tulfizetett, aluladoztatott
parasztsagrol. De mig a paraszt, akarmilyen kisfoldu is,
kulakkent halt ehen (mert ilyen is volt, Molnar es Erdei
tudjak!), addig a beszolgaltatottbol (elkobzottbol) meg az
IKKA-bol lehetett megelni valahogy a varosi menzan.
Tovabb folytatva barati korom tagitasat: nagyon meglepett az
egyik fiatalember privat e-mailje, amiben tanacsolta, hogy
ne folytassak magyarnyelvu diskurzusokat a magyar listan.
Meglepo. Isten hozott az angolul-beszelo(?)-iro(?)-magyarok
gettojaba! Itt van egy rakas (tudatosan hasznalom e szot!)
kulfoldon elo magyar, reszuk tapasztalt es tudo ember s most
gyorsan huzzunk korejuk szogesdrot keritest, nehogy az
otthoni fiatal magyarsag beszelhessen veluk! Lehet, hogy
beszelnek tobb nyelvet, nemelyik legalabb olyan fontos de
elterjedtebb mint az angol (nemet, francia), kulturaltabb is
(olasz), de nem, internetto-interbrutto!, ha nem beszel
angolul, nincs eszmecsere. Revai sem talalhatta volna ki
jobban, vagy Sztalin, vagy Goebbels, ha jobban imponal.
Rokonlelkek: mindharom Jozsef volt.
Pedig ez a fiatalember sem buta. Irasai nagyreszet orommel
olvasom, mint majdnem mindenkiet, aki rendszeresen levelezik
a Newsgroupon (Nyuzgruppott?? Kosz mindazoknak akik beirtak
megmagyarazni, remenytelenul, hogy miert Pecsett, de
Debrecenben?). Jok a meglatasai, talan akkor a legjobbak
amikor a sajat feje utan megy (es nem marhaskodja el
valamivel).
Szert tettem egy-ket baratra is, talan tobbre is telt volna,
ha nincs ez az acsarkodas.
Most nem hagyom itt azt a csoportot, miert is, magam sem
vagyok kulomb mint az atlag. De kimegyek, mert ki kell
mennem friss levegot szivni! Akiknek jobb a tudejuk, vagy
tovabb tudjak tartani a lelegzetuket, kerem, nyissak ki az
ablakot!
Kerem azokat, akik szeretettel vannak irantam, mint eddig
is, irjanak. Az e-mail cimem itt van a lap tetejen.
Mindenkit szeretettel es tobb-kevesebb becsulessel koszontok
a viszontolvasasig:
Dominus.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

J.Szalai gave an opportunity for an interesting parallel:

>>The gipsies were nomads
>
>So were the Huns and the Magyars, at one time.

True!

D.Bogsanyi wrote:

>For the law enforcers the gipsies were a useful scapegoat but with good
>cause. A large percentage of robberies, petty theft, petty fraud etc., was
>perpetrated by gipsies moving through a district.

And were the nomad magyars a nightmare for the contemporary West-Europian
law enforcers? Slightly.
No problem, Joe has the answer:

>They didn't have many other career opportunities, did they?  What would you
>have done if you were in their shoes?
>
>Do they get all the blame?

Surely, the problem can be approached from this viewpoint, too.
And BTW:

>They moved on because they weren't wanted.

Oh, boy! Definitely.

>There was no place for them in the West-Europian (originally Hungarian in
>Joe's post) society.  Might it not be more accurate to call them refugees,
> rather than nomads?

Weeell. I don't think so.

J.Zs
+ - Packo's Hot Dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:00 AM 4/2/97 -0400, our wordsmith (Sam) wrote:

>3) What's the deal with Pako's famous hot dogs? (Note to Bandi: I practically
>grew up in a meat-packing plant. These dogs had better be good.)
>Sam Stowe

The devil made him do it......(this will become clear from the length of
this article)

The problem with newspapermen is that they don't watch enough television.
Slight bias in preference of communication medium? The fourth estate strikes
again. :-) :-)

Now, remember the context... you were asking (poor, defenseless) Janos
how come he went to Toledo, of all places. I was offering him (Janos) some
ammunition, but, alas, it was for naught. It was a golden opportunity that he
missed. Oh, well...One can do only so much.

Connecting dots... Toledo, Hungarians, Hungarian-Americana......



     The Real Story of Tony Packo's

     Tony Packo was a factory worker. Then it all changed in
     1932 with a man and his wife and a $100 loan from
     relatives, in the hardest of hard times, the first
     years of the Great Depression.

     Tony Packo was a native East Toledoan, the son of
     Hungarian immigrants, born in 1908 a stone's throw from
     Consaul and Genesee streets, where he opened a sandwich
     and ice cream shop in 1932. There was no beer at
     Packo's that first year. Prohibition would not be
     lifted until 1933.

     Tony had learned the restaurant business working for
     his older brother, John, who owned a place across
     Consaul Street in what is now Tony Packo's parking lot.

     Tony's famous sausage-and-sauce sandwich was a product
     of the money shortage of the Great Depression. Tony
     initially sold a homemade sausage sandwich, with the
     sausage split open and served on rye bread, for a dime.
     But the price was too high for the times. At the
     suggestion of a customer, Tony began selling
     half-sausages in buns for a nickel. To give the smaller
     and cheaper sandwich more appeal, he added a spicy meat
     sauce, the product of lengthy experimentation in the
     kitchen. Basically the sauce is chili, the Packos say,
     but Tony's original recipe remains a closely held
     secret.

     Tony's creation was called the Hungarian hot dog
     because Tony was Hungarian-American and lived in a
     Hungarian neighborhood. Until Toledo-born Tony invented
     it, there was no such thing as a Hungarian hot dog, say
     those who know the Old Country's food.

       Packo's food was an instant hit in the neighborhood.
     Within months of opening, Tony and Rose knocked out a
     wall and expanded their first shop, in what is now
     called the Consaul Tavern. By 1935 success had taken
     them to the point where they could buy a building of
     their own. They purchased the wedge-shaped storefront
     at Front and Consaul. The building houses part of
     today's Tony Packo's with a few more additions. The
     restaurant is still run by the Packo family - by Tony
     and Rose's children; Tony Jr. and Nancy, and Nancy's
     son, Robin.


     Tony Packo's is Toledo!

     A visit to Tony Packo's completes a visit to Toledo.
     Tony Packo's, a family business since 1932, invites you
     to bask in the Hot Tony Packo fun. Visit us for hot
     times, hot tunes and our famous Tony Packo hot dogs.
     Remember at Tony Packo's, home is where the hot is. So
     when you get homesick for us just give us a call at
     1-800-366-4218. Thanks for coming by.

     -- The Packo Family



     The M*A*S*H Connection

     The words that came out of Jamie Farr's mouth on Feb.
     24, 1976, would put Tony Packo's in the spotlight.
     Farr, a native Toledoan appearing in the television
     show, "M*A*S*H," was playing Corporal Max Klinger, a
     crazy medical corpsman who was from Toledo. In the
     episode that made Packo's future, a man playing a
     television newsman talked to Klinger about his
     hometown. Farr wrote a little local color into his
     reply. The lines read, "If you're ever in Toledo, Ohio,
     on the Hungarian side of town, Tony Packo's got the
     greatest Hungarian hot dogs. Thirty-five cents..." Thus
     a new epoch began. The name appealed to the
     scriptwriters, who wrote Packo's into five subsequent
     episodes. In one show the mobile hospital unit sent to
     Packo's for sausage casings to be used in a
     blood-filtering machine. Packo's was also mentioned in
     the two-and-a-half-hour final episode in 1983.

(Reprinted without permission)

Am I being educational, or what?

Regards to y'all,

Bandi
+ - Re: Numerus..... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:00 AM 4/2/97 -0400, mahman (the Stoner) writes:

>>You must enjoy this banter a lot, otherwise you would remember that we
>>settled the issue regarding national cognitive dissonance some time ago.
>
>Did we? I remember sending you a detailed private e-mail trying to discuss
the
>issue at greater length and you never replied. I don't know that we've
settled
>anything about national cognitive
>dissonance because you bailed on me, bubba.What have we come to when one
>Southerner can't trust another one to muse philosophical and at an ad nauseum
>length?

You mean you didn't get my telepathic messages? Now who is rotten kin?

The problem with these new-fangled mailreaders is that they tuck away
mail in places I can never find them. Outta sight....But will get back to ya.
Honest injun.

>>What do you think is the rationale in the founding of the (American)
>>Institute for the Revision of History?
>
>Beats the hell out of me. They didn't call me or send me a membership
brochure.
>I guess that's what I get for not listening to Rush.

No, you are kidding, yes?

According to Michener (who does his research) there was a letter smuggled out
of a Polish concentration camp in the early 1940s, but the then Secretary
of State
decided to put it in the back of the drawer, where it was found after the war.

He did it for the same reason that the IRH denies that the Holocaust has ever
happened. (Of course, they also maintain that man never walked on the moon,
and what we saw was a TV trick).

Admitting to be tacitly or actively participating the kind of atrocity that
the
extermination of millions of people would entail is so abhorrent that the
subconscious can't bear it.

Not let's see who can guess why anyone would deny the walk on the moon?

How come we never talk about the MILLIONS killed in Cambodia?

>
>>How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
>>on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
>>for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?
>
>Here, you do have a point. Does that mean we should refrain from making any
>effort to strengthen it to bear such a burden? The past, after all, is past.
>I'd just hate to see it re-occur in the
>future. As much good faith as whites and blacks put into the civil rights
>struggle here in the States, we still haven't come a long ways in thirty or
>forty years in terms of accepting one another as
>individuals. Collectively, things are better for blacks because they have
much
>more access to good education and good jobs than before. But individually? We
>still segregate ourselves outside the
>classroom and the office for the most part. Given its recent history, how
much
>more of a challenge in this area does Hungary face?

It is a matter of (dis)comfort. Be that political, economic, or spiritual.
If one is
disenchanted to the extreme one finds a scapegoat. Historically this is
clearly supported. A depressed, beaten, full of Angst German nation after
WW I, comes back phoenix-like by cashing in on such discomfort. The
scapegoat became clear (sic!) on Kristallnacht.

Did the plantation owners hate the Negroes, or was it the poor white
trash who felt threatened by emancipation?

When women entered the labor force en masse, did the folks on the
top feel uncomfortable, or was it the bottom-layer that was about
to lose jobs?

Give Hungary  the solid economic comfort it desires and the spiritual
comfort it needs and most of the "ethnic," "racial," and "religious"
hatred will go by the wayside. I am sure that one of the many historians
who read this list will agree that in the "golden" eras of Hungary, anti-
semitism was low.

>>You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.
>
>I doubteth not that thou'rt right on the money. Still, it keeps me off the
>streets.

I said that because we cannot expect one to assume (accept) the pain
that insight would entail.

>Sam Stowe

Bandi
+ - Re: Numerus....... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Date:    Tue, 1 Apr 1997 16:44:28 -0500
>From:    "E.S. Balogh" >
>Subject: Re: Numerus.....
>
>At 02:06 PM 4/1/97 GMT, Sam wrote to Bandi Rozsa:
>
>>Here, you do have a point. Does that mean we should refrain from making any
>>effort to strengthen it to bear such a burden? The past, after all, is past.
>>I'd just hate to see it re-occur in the
>>future. As much good faith as whites and blacks put into the civil rights
>>struggle here in the States, we still haven't come a long ways in thirty or
>>forty years in terms of accepting one another as
>>individuals. Collectively, things are better for blacks because they have
much
>>more access to good education and good jobs than before. But
individually? We
>>still segregate ourselves outside the
>>classroom and the office for the most part. Given its recent history, how
much
>>more of a challenge in this area does Hungary face?
>>
>>>You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.
>
>        I hope not. This constant denial of everything which might not
>reflect well on the country prevents people from an objective appreciation
>of history. Or at best there is a need of constantly explaining things away.
>Somehow always someone else, or just simply fate, is responsible for our
>misfortunes. And, if you try to give a more objective interpretation of
>history then you are labelled a traitor, or a communist, or anti-Hungarian.

You and are looking at this from slightly different perspectives. You are a
scholar
who uses scholarly arguments to support IDEAS. You can even allow
yourself to change arguments, because that's what scholars can do. You
can examine issues rationally.

However, the issues being discussed here and elsewhere in Hungarian cyber-
space are mostly emotional. Hence irrational.

Sorry, Eva, but oil and vinegar don't mix. You will NEVER be able to convince
an emotional person to accept a rational argument. NEVER.

I am looking at the motivation (conscious or otherwise). I say that this
discussion is like beating a dead horse, because it is.

If Santayana was correct and (I paraphrase) those who don't learn from history
are doomed to repeat it, then that explains history: it repeats itself. Sorry.

See my feeble attempts at explaining scapegoating in my message to Sam.


>        But to return to the problem of falsification of history [.....]

Personally, I was not talking about falsification, but rather that denial
is not a
river in Egypt.

> it is
>relatively easy for countries which had been invaded by Germany during the
>war, including Austria. The Germans had no one else to blame.

Sure they did: the Jews. This time, probably the American/French ones.

Bandi
+ - Re: Numerus..... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From:    "Miklos K. Hoffmann" >
>Subject: Re: Numerus.....

[.....]
>> How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
>> on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
>> for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?
>>
>> You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.


>Psychologist, I presume? :-) ( or just wise ( which would be even more))
>MKH

I am very wise. Just ask me. :-)

Bandi
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It all depends on the definition of nomadic. If we think of nomads as living in
 tents and driving painted carts with horses of doubtful ownership then definit
ely the world has moved on and the gypsy lifestyle with it. Then again it is we
ll known that there is an influx of gypsies from Romania in particular and they
 like to settle down in the main railway stations in Budapest and I certainly w
ould think of that as a nomadic lifestyle.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  E.S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 2 April 1997 9:09
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

At 08:33 PM 4/1/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote in answer to Zoli Fekete:

>> that doesn't hold them back from assuming that, say, the lifestyle of
>> Gipsies must not have changed in half a century or else some Hungarians
>> could not possibly harbor prejudice against them (to cite just one bizarre
>> example from this thread)...
>>
>> --
>Say just this again?

        I assume that Zoli means that the Gypsies are no longer a nomadic
people, and I think that he is right.
        Eva
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:
>
> In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> > writes:
>
> >With Mr. Stowe, discussion futile. He is - by God4s grace -
> >erratically announcing "judgements" and he becomes course, if
> >anybody tries to analyse, to differentiate the issue.
> >
> >MKH
>
> Horse hockey. You tried to lie

To the "bystanders" :
If it were in this country, or if I would live there, I would
take Mr. Stove to the courts for this statement. From this dis-
tance, it would be shooting mice with heavy weapons.

I am not going to argue at this level. I have no problems wrestling
with diametrally different opinions - especially if I, or if all sides
learn. But I stop communicating with individuals and try to avoid
contact with them, when the style degenerates, when they become coarse,
rude, vulgar and unfair. Some weeks ago, I think Jeliko quoted the
saying : If one wrestles with pigs, he will get filthy and the pigs
enjoy it. Well, it is similar.

> about whether or not I'd acknowledge some of the
> mistreatment of groups here in the States. I pointed out to you

???

> that I had
> raised the question of the treatment of
> blacks in the U.S. at least twice in this thread.

???

> If you can't take the heat,  stay out of the kitchen.

I normally enjoy heat. But coarse, rude transactions somehow
REMIND me of arrogant representatives of superior races, ideologies
and isms. And they disgust me.

MKH
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 08:33 PM 4/1/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote in answer to Zoli Fekete:
>
> >> that doesn't hold them back from assuming that, say, the lifestyle of
> >> Gipsies must not have changed in half a century or else some Hungarians
> >> could not possibly harbor prejudice against them (to cite just one bizarre
> >> example from this thread)...
> >>
> >> --
> >Say just this again?
>
>         I assume that Zoli means that the Gypsies are no longer a nomadic
> people, and I think that he is right.
>         Eva
Maybe. But let Zoli interpret Zoli.
Miklos
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:
>
> In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> > writes:
>
> >With Mr. Stowe, discussion futile. He is - by God4s grace -
> >erratically announcing "judgements" and he becomes course, if
> >anybody tries to analyse, to differentiate the issue.
> >
> >MKH
>
> Horse hockey. You tried to lie

To the "bystanders" :

If it were in this country, or if I would live there, for this statement
I would take Mr. Stove to the courts. From this distance, it appears to
me, it would be disproportionate.

I am not going to discuss at this level. I have no difficulties with
exchanging arguments, especially if all sides grow by learning, and I
love learning, but I stop, when the style degenerates and I try to
avoid contact with those causing this. Some days ore weeks ago, Jeliko
quoted the saying : If one wrestles with pigs he will get filthy and
the pigs enjoy it. Well, it is like that.

> about whether or not I'd acknowledge some of the
> mistreatment of groups here in the States. I pointed out to you that I had
> raised the question of the treatment of
> blacks in the U.S. at least twice in this thread.

> If you can't take the heat,
> stay out of the kitchen.

I enjoy heat, but not course and/or unfair handling of the adversories.
It REMINDS me of arrogant nazis, communists or whatever you have. And
they disgust me.

Miklos
+ - Re: [Fwd: Magyar Klise'k] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:27 PM 4/1/97 -0400, Aniko Dunford wrote:

>Joe Szalai - getting impatient:-), thus reposting Magyar Klise'k of several
>days ago (as below)
>
>Hali Joe!
>
>Could it be, that your signature is deterring people from responding?  Or,
>could it be, that once one is put to task, one tends to draw a real blank.
>(for me, the latter applies).  Give my mind a chance .....:-)

Sorry, Aniko, but you shouldn't have seen the second posting.  A message
came back to me saying that my post was already posted and I assumed that
was that.  I actually wanted to send another post but it got lost in
cyberspace somewhere.

Since there have been no responses to 'Magyar klise'k' I was begining to
think that they don't exist in Hungarian.  However, that can't be the case.
 Just read anything by Lippai ur.  His repetitive comments about 'mocskos
kommonistak' is starting to sound like a cliche'.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 1 Apr 1997, E.S. Balogh wrote:

> At 08:33 PM 4/1/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote in answer to Zoli Fekete:
>
> >> that doesn't hold them back from assuming that, say, the lifestyle of
> >> Gipsies must not have changed in half a century or else some Hungarians
> >> could not possibly harbor prejudice against them (to cite just one bizarre
> >> example from this thread)...
> >>
> >> --
> >Say just this again?
>
>         I assume that Zoli means that the Gypsies are no longer a nomadic
> people, and I think that he is right.
 Indeed, they haven't been for generations - so one would be hard pressed
to find Hungarians still alive who'd seen those alleged flea-spreading
thief hordes whose impression is supposedly to explain the rather
widespread prejudice among way too many fellow countrymen of mine.

--
 Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq >
Please note that the above is my new preferred address!
 My primary FAQ archive is presently at <ftp://ftp.alt.net/hungarian/>
       * I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY SPAMVERTISED PRODUCTS! *
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 2 Apr 1997, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
{incidentally, your paragraph came as one line several times longer than
the 80 characters most program handles well - please try to format it
with lien breaks}

 > It all depends on the definition of nomadic. If we think of nomads as
living in tents and driving painted carts with horses of doubtful
ownership then definitely the world has moved on and the gypsy lifestyle
with it. Then again it is well known that there is an influx of gypsies
from Romania in particular and they like to settle down in the main
railway stations in Budapest and I certainly would think of that as a
nomadic lifestyle.

 Please define "well-known" ;-<. As a matter of fact there is no
significant influx - most gypsies in question are from within Hungary (for
one thing those from abroad could be deported - and they may easily be, if
hanging around the stations). And most people 'settled' in the stations
are homeless but not travelling, so I'd hardly call that nomadic (nor
would I assume that it is to their liking). Also, while some of the
station-dwellers are indeed Gipsies (who make up a disproportionately high
portion of destitutes, after all), that's not typical: neither the
majority of those staying there are Gipsy, nor most of the Gipsies seen
around live there.

--
 Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq >
Please note that the above is my new preferred address!
 My primary FAQ archive is presently at <ftp://ftp.alt.net/hungarian/>
       * I WILL NEVER, EVER, BUY SPAMVERTISED PRODUCTS! *
+ - New Hungarian Films (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This month CINEMATEQUE Ontario is showing a panorama of Central an Easter
European films, featuring 21 films from 8 countries created after 1990.
There are 5 Hungarian films in the program. All screenings are held at the
Art Gallery of Ontario's Jackman Hall. The following description of the
Hungarian films are taken from the program booklet.

Barna Bozoki

--------

Sunday, April 6 1:30p.m.: SA'TA'NTANGO'
Director: Be'la Tarr/ Hungary/Germany/Switzerland 1994; 435 minutes

An instant legend, Bela Tarr's seven-hour black comedy has been hailed as
one of the most ambitious and important films of postwar cinema. An opus to
rival any, SATANTANGO is set in a bleak Hungarian village where a dozen
greedy "survivors" exploit betray, booze, lie and cheat while waiting for a
Messiah. It is a measure of Tarr's dark vision that when that messiah
arrives, he is a con man and a police informer. A teeming meditation on
post-Communist Europe, the film is shot in extremely long choreographed
takes, and luxuriates in the textural and compositional beauty of rain,
earth, glowering skies and decaying hovels, in a manner that recalls
Tarkovsky at his most mesmerizing. Tonic, voluptuous, funny and horrifying,
SATANTANGO is that rare thing in contemporary cinema: an authentic event.
"The best film of 1996" - J. Hoberman, The Village Voice. "If great films
make their own rules, SATANTANGO surely belongs in their company" -
Jonathan Rosenbaum

Tuesday, April 8 8:45 p.m.: BITCHES (CSAJOK)
Director: Ildiko' Szabo'. Hungary/Germany 1995. 94 minutes
Cast: Dorottya Udvaros, Eniko Eszenyi

From the director of CHILD MURDERS, a surprising change of pace: a wild,
rollicking feminist satire, shot in eye-popping colours and featuring an
ensemble of some of Hungary's finest actresses. Three women meet at a
swimming pool, get drunk on champagne and decide to dump their husbands who
are, respectively, brutal, bumbling and dull. Throwing themselves into the
liberated world of the new Hungary, the three women try to find happiness.
The actresses are very fine - BITCHES won two top acting awards at last
year's Hungarian film festival - and the film revels in its unfettered,
slightly crazed sense of both sexual and narrative freedom. BITCHES was
selected for Official Competition at the Berlin Film Festival.

Saturday, April 12 6:30p.m.: THE OUTPOST (A RESZLEG)
Director: Pe'ter Gotha'r. Hungary/Romania 1994 85 minutes
Cast: Mari Nagy, Jozsef Szarvas

One of the most impressive Hungarian films to emerge since the fall of
Communism, THE OUTPOST is an unnerving tale set in an unnamed Central
European country in the 1980s. Gisela, a middle-aged divorcee, is promoted
to head a remote branch office of the company that employs her. The
"promotions is anything but; it takes her on a journey to a desolate
outpost, where the men are brutal, the landscape forbidding, and the
accommodations a ferret-infested mountain hut. Slowly, Gisela is stripped
of her belongings, her identity, her sense of place. Gothar is an expert at
sinister, absurdist humour, and one doesn't need to invoke Kafka to
describe Gisela's trip to the "outpost," but the nightmare that is played
out in hard. bright winter light has the eerie resonance of Kafka's most
frightening stories.

Wednesday, April 16 8:45 p.m.: BOLSHE VITA (BOLSE VITA)
Director: Ibolya Fekete. Hungary/Germany 1995 101 minutes
Cast: Yuri Fomichov, Igor Chernyevich

Voted the Best Hungarian First Feature, winner of the prestigious Gene
Moscowitz Award, and a hit at this year's London Film Festival, BOLSHE VITA
is a wry comedy set in the brave new world of post-Communist Budapest. In
the "short but memorable period when Eastern Europe was happy"-that is
1989, the time between the fall of Communism and the chaos that followed-a
group of transients find themselves drawn to the bar called Bolshe Vita:
three Russian men, including an engineer reduced to selling knives to make
a living; an American and a British woman who have come to Hungary "because
that's where all the excitement is;" and a very efficient Hungarian
landlady. "Affecting and involving" (Variety). "A startling new talent.
 . . here makes brilliant use of actuality material in this attractive first
feature" (David Robinson).

Saturday, April 26 6:30 p.m.: JUNK MOVIE (RONCSFILM)
Director: Gyo:rgy Szomjas. Hungary 1992 90 minutes
Cast: Agi Szirtes, Zoltan Mucsi

From one of the wildest, most risk-taking talents of Hungarian cinema (his
LIGHT PHYSICAL INJURIES is a contemporary classic), a boiling goulash of
extreme scenes centred on the bitter theme of post- Communist disillusion:
The film's alternative title is WE WON, SO WHAT? Mixing berserk humour and
political critique, the film, like BOLSHE VITA, centres on a Budapest pub
where the debris of the new Hungary finds a home. (The film is a demented
Magyar version of EASTENDERS.) Szomjas stops at nothing, and evokes the
chaos of his characters' lives with a mix of tones and visual strategies. A
major hit with Hungarian audiences, JUNK MOVIE is "filled with vigour and
energy, and [is] challenging in its brutally honest anarchy" (David
Stratton, Variety).
+ - Re: Packo's Hot Dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> At 12:00 AM 4/2/97 -0400, our wordsmith (Sam) wrote:
>
> >3) What's the deal with Pako's famous hot dogs? (Note to Bandi: I practicall
y
> >grew up in a meat-packing plant. These dogs had better be good.)
> >Sam Stowe
>
> The devil made him do it......(this will become clear from the length of
> this article)
>
> The problem with newspapermen is that they don't watch enough television.
> Slight bias in preference of communication medium? The fourth estate strikes
> again. :-) :-)
>
> Now, remember the context... you were asking (poor, defenseless) Janos
> how come he went to Toledo, of all places. I was offering him (Janos) some
> ammunition, but, alas, it was for naught. It was a golden opportunity that he
> missed. Oh, well...One can do only so much.
>
> Connecting dots... Toledo, Hungarians, Hungarian-Americana......
>
>      The Real Story of Tony Packo's
>
>      Tony Packo was a factory worker. Then it all changed in
>      1932 with a man and his wife and a $100 loan from
>      relatives, in the hardest of hard times, the first
>      years of the Great Depression.
>
>      Tony Packo was a native East Toledoan, the son of
>      Hungarian immigrants, born in 1908 a stone's throw from
>      Consaul and Genesee streets, where he opened a sandwich
>      and ice cream shop in 1932. There was no beer at
>      Packo's that first year. Prohibition would not be
>      lifted until 1933.
>
>      Tony had learned the restaurant business working for
>      his older brother, John, who owned a place across
>      Consaul Street in what is now Tony Packo's parking lot.
>
>      Tony's famous sausage-and-sauce sandwich was a product
>      of the money shortage of the Great Depression. Tony
>      initially sold a homemade sausage sandwich, with the
>      sausage split open and served on rye bread, for a dime.
>      But the price was too high for the times. At the
>      suggestion of a customer, Tony began selling
>      half-sausages in buns for a nickel. To give the smaller
>      and cheaper sandwich more appeal, he added a spicy meat
>      sauce, the product of lengthy experimentation in the
>      kitchen. Basically the sauce is chili, the Packos say,
>      but Tony's original recipe remains a closely held
>      secret.
>
>      Tony's creation was called the Hungarian hot dog
>      because Tony was Hungarian-American and lived in a
>      Hungarian neighborhood. Until Toledo-born Tony invented
>      it, there was no such thing as a Hungarian hot dog, say
>      those who know the Old Country's food.
>
>        Packo's food was an instant hit in the neighborhood.
>      Within months of opening, Tony and Rose knocked out a
>      wall and expanded their first shop, in what is now
>      called the Consaul Tavern. By 1935 success had taken
>      them to the point where they could buy a building of
>      their own. They purchased the wedge-shaped storefront
>      at Front and Consaul. The building houses part of
>      today's Tony Packo's with a few more additions. The
>      restaurant is still run by the Packo family - by Tony
>      and Rose's children; Tony Jr. and Nancy, and Nancy's
>      son, Robin.
>
>      Tony Packo's is Toledo!
>
>      A visit to Tony Packo's completes a visit to Toledo.
>      Tony Packo's, a family business since 1932, invites you
>      to bask in the Hot Tony Packo fun. Visit us for hot
>      times, hot tunes and our famous Tony Packo hot dogs.
>      Remember at Tony Packo's, home is where the hot is. So
>      when you get homesick for us just give us a call at
>      1-800-366-4218. Thanks for coming by.
>
>      -- The Packo Family
>
>      The M*A*S*H Connection
>
>      The words that came out of Jamie Farr's mouth on Feb.
>      24, 1976, would put Tony Packo's in the spotlight.
>      Farr, a native Toledoan appearing in the television
>      show, "M*A*S*H," was playing Corporal Max Klinger, a
>      crazy medical corpsman who was from Toledo. In the
>      episode that made Packo's future, a man playing a
>      television newsman talked to Klinger about his
>      hometown. Farr wrote a little local color into his
>      reply. The lines read, "If you're ever in Toledo, Ohio,
>      on the Hungarian side of town, Tony Packo's got the
>      greatest Hungarian hot dogs. Thirty-five cents..." Thus
>      a new epoch began. The name appealed to the
>      scriptwriters, who wrote Packo's into five subsequent
>      episodes. In one show the mobile hospital unit sent to
>      Packo's for sausage casings to be used in a
>      blood-filtering machine. Packo's was also mentioned in
>      the two-and-a-half-hour final episode in 1983.
>
> (Reprinted without permission)
>
> Am I being educational, or what?
>
> Regards to y'all,
>
> Bandi
 ...and there were stupid, ignorant people ( thinking in Milleneums and )
believing America had no HISTORY. They should know it by now! :-)
Miklos

P.S. ( and this is whre Taco Bell came from? )
+ - Re: Numerus..... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> >From:    "Miklos K. Hoffmann" >
> >Subject: Re: Numerus.....
>
> [.....]
> >> How can we expect the psyche of a nation that has been stomped
> >> on for a thousand years to bear the burden of responsibility
> >> for something that is emotionally and ethically unacceptable?
> >>
> >> You are flogging a dead horse, methinks.
>
> >Psychologist, I presume? :-) ( or just wise ( which would be even more))
> >MKH
>
> I am very wise. Just ask me. :-)
>
> Bandi
Glad to KNOW! :-)
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> J.Szalai gave an opportunity for an interesting parallel:
>
> >>The gipsies were nomads
> >
> >So were the Huns and the Magyars, at one time.
>
> True!
>
> D.Bogsanyi wrote:
>
> >For the law enforcers the gipsies were a useful scapegoat but with good
> >cause. A large percentage of robberies, petty theft, petty fraud etc., was
> >perpetrated by gipsies moving through a district.
>
> And were the nomad magyars a nightmare for the contemporary West-Europian
> law enforcers? Slightly.

Slightly, he said! It was not just petty theft, petty fraud! The went to
war, which is no doubt much worse. A sagittis hungarorum - libera
nos Domine. And the German, well, one MUST differentiate, the Bavarians
tried the Dester Storm, the final solution at Augsburg. Only, the
garians back home ( home? I thought, they were nomads ) didn4t cooperate
and let domesticate themselves...:-) and the German, no the Bavarian
President ( I am getting this all mixed up ) stopped his warriors to
early, not marching toward Csepel (? historians bear with me :-) ) .


> No problem, Joe has the answer:
>
> >They didn't have many other career opportunities, did they?  What would you
> >have done if you were in their shoes?
> >
> >Do they get all the blame?
>
> Surely, the problem can be approached from this viewpoint, too.
> And BTW:
>
> >They moved on because they weren't wanted.
>
> Oh, boy! Definitely.
>
> >There was no place for them in the West-Europian (originally Hungarian in
> >Joe's post) society.  Might it not be more accurate to call them refugees,
> > rather than nomads?
>
> Weeell. I don't think so.

Well, not in Western Europe. Earlier, when they came in.
Only, they were armed... :-)
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 08:47 AM 3/31/97 +1000, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:
>
> >I think it is a very complex issue. Over a matter of centuries the gipsies
> >represented a life-style and a world view diametrically opposite to the
> hopes >of the other people living there whether in the country or in the
> towns.
> >The gipsies were nomads
>
> So were the Huns and the Magyars, at one time.

Yes, but no longer in the XXth century. If the Arpadian
king hadn4t manage to "domesticate" the Hungarians back in the"dark"
Medieval Age, IMHO, there would be no more Hungarians in the Carpatian
Basin.
>
> >They carried lice and the people in any district where they camped were in
> >terror of typhoid and other epidemics against which the gipsies were
> partly >immune but which they spread.
>
> Who didn't carry lice?  And don't forget that most people carry disease to
> which they are immune.  This is not a gypsy thing.
>
> >They were a nightmare for public health workers. Their children because of
> >their nomadic life-style did not attend school and this at a time when
> >compulsory education was being enforced in the countryside.
>
> When did education become compulsory?  And why were the Gypsies nomadic at
> that time?  Actually, I don't believe that they were nomadic late last
> century.  They moved on because they weren't wanted.  There was no place
> for them in Hungarian society.  Might it not be more accurate to call them
> refugees, rather than nomads?
>
> >For the law enforcers the gipsies were a useful scapegoat but with good
> cause. >A large percentage of robberies, petty theft, petty fraud etc., was
> perpetrated >by gipsies moving through a district.
>
> They didn't have many other career opportunities, did they?  What would you
> have done if you were in their shoes?
>
> Do they get all the blame?
>
> <snip>
> >I am sorry if all this sounds anti-gipsy but with the best will I have not
> been >able to write positive things about them. Maybe someone else can.
>
> It doesn't sound anti-gypsy.  It sounds defeatist.  You acknowledge that
> there's a problem, but you just throw up your hands.  Hungarians have been
> doing that for hundreds of years.  When's it going to end?  When will there
> be a genuine reconciliation of the two peoples?
>
> Were Gypsies Europe's first 'Pakis'?
>
> Joe Szalai

Hallo Joe,
"Pakis"? Help me. Possibly I should know, I don4t know.

For many years, in Germany, I barely met romas. I don4t even know
whether there was a significant population here before the nazis.
I know, many thousends of them, mostly from central Europe, were
murderd by the nazis in the "final solution"-camps. The few I met
here were rather well off, still nomads, but on a more than three-
star-level : new big Mercedeses and fancy caravans. I knew that they
were trying again and again, to achieve compensation from the German
governments. The Eastern on ( as long as there was one ) refused,
since they claimed to have been always antifascists, and had therefore
nothing to do with the problem, the Western one just ignoring, looking
away and not moving beyond payments made to Isreal and to individual
Jews. The discussion about claims of victims in the former Warsaw Pact
countries is still not settled. But this is not what I wanted to report.

When I started to visit Hajdu-Bihar, Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg, i.e. the
eastern parts of Hungary, I suddenly discovered, the population there
felt such a problem. They label it as a Roma problem, but it is a social
problem. The Roma are no longer - significantly - nomadic there, but
most of them live on a very low ( they are poor ) social level, have
habits, hygiene, etc different from the rest of the population. ( Not
all of them. ( Some are quit well off, considered as normal neighbours,
colleges, as "integrated" by the population. ) It is not just them,
there are other Hungarians, too. But most of this layer are Roma. They
populate e.g. large portion of the - previously - neatest parts of the
inner city of Debrecen. The buildings, most of them should be protected
for their architectural and artistic value, are run down and dirty.
Anybody, who could efford it, moved away. In the East, in some  commu-
nities, there are 15% Roma. And whilest the number "ethnic Hungarians"
is declining, the Roma multiply. It is the problem what Israel has with
Palestinians within its borders, or Serbia with the Albanians in the
Kosovo : you can calculate the year, when they take over the majority
( the Albanians not only in the Kosovo, where they are in the wast
majority, but in entire Serbia ). My impression was similar to the
impression in America : there was both a lot of attempts, measures,
to improve education, level, predicament and integration of the Roma
AND a lot of animosity, as well. I met a policeman ( on the Force since
the communists ) in the area , openly saying, that he was an ethnic
Serb, he wouldn4t agree with the Western propaganda about Bosnia. In his
eyes, it was all right what was happening there and he would prefer the
same "ethnic cleansing"  treat- ment of the Roma. There was no way to
talk sensibly to the man.

So, obviously, not everythig is tutti-frutti there. Yes, there is a
problem and no realistic fast solutions are visible. It gonna be a
long hike. To make it worse, necessary financing is just not there.
Miklos
+ - HL-Action: letter to AL GORE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the sentence.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to
reject the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of both the Vice President
      and one or another of his key aides on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.
key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(E-Mail: 

Dear Mr. Vice President,

On the 21st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, mankind is approaching
an important precedent: On the 3rd of March, 1997 the International
Court of Justice has started the oral phase of the first international
environmental lawsuit in The Hague.

By the end of October, the ICJ will decide on this case involving the
Danube and the destruction of its ancient wetland region: the
Szigetkoz. This name, losely translated, means: "The region of a
thousand islands," yet today there are no islands left there,
because the water is gone. Still, the implications of this case go
beyond the future of just one river or just the 400 endangered
species of one ancient ecosystem.

This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will
answer a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the
right to destroy the natural natural treasures of this planet, or does
mankind as a whole have the right to protect them?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995, nine international NGOs have submitted a
memorial to ICJ, which the Court accepted. A Compromise Plan was
also submitted to the Court, which would guarantee the restoration of
the ancient Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the
water-supply, shipping and energy needs of the region. For details of
this plan or for other aspects of the lawsuit, information is
available at the web-site: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm or from
prof. Liptak.

Dear Mr. Gore. There is little question, that in October, the ICJ
will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed
and will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But
the ICJ has no powers to enforce its rulings. Therefore it will be up
to the international community to force Slovakia to obey the ruling.
This being the first international environmental lawsuit before the
ICJ, the outcome will establish an important precedent. The Slovak
Government must understand that there is a price to be paid for
being admitted into the European Community or into NATO. That price
must include the respect for international law. A statement by you,
would guarantee that the Slovak Government understands this. Please
make that statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, title and address>
+ - Re: Packo's Hot Dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

M.Hoffmann wrote:

>P.S. ( and this is where Taco Bell came from? )

No, that is a Mexican telecommunication company :-)))).

J.Zs
+ - Re: HL-Action: letter to AL GORE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Re proposed e-mail to Al Gore, the suggested draft states (in part) as follows:
 There is little question, that in October, the ICJ
>will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed
>and will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But
>the ICJ has no powers to enforce its rulings. Therefore it will be up
>to the international community to force Slovakia to obey the ruling.
>This being the first international environmental lawsuit before the
>ICJ, the outcome will establish an important precedent. The Slovak
>Government must understand that there is a price to be paid for
>being admitted into the European Community or into NATO. That price
>must include the respect for international law. A statement by you,
>would guarantee that the Slovak Government understands this. Please
>make that statement.

The above purports to know the outcome and puts the burden on the Slovak
government.  It would be far more statesmanlike to say:

"The parties should be urged to respect the Court's judgment and take steps
to satisfy the requirements stated therein".

Clearly, after the decision,  if indeed the Slovaks should disregard the
ICJ, or simply take delaying actions, there will be ample time to get more
specific.  Andy.



A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408
+ - HTMH-Croatia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is a second in the series "Transborder Hungarians" summarized from the
HTMH's 1996 report.

B CROATIA

1.DEMOGRAPHICS. Hungarians live in "Baranya"and East Slavonia. From a
peak of  76 thousand (1921) the 1991 census listed but 22 thousand. Since
the 1991 Serb invasion, another 8500 have left the area: many for Hungary,
other parts of Croatia and elsewhere.
2. LEGAL  Rights have been changing along with the fortunes of war. Today
there is but one Hungarian mayor, who is also district (jaras) supervisor. In
1995 a minority rights agreement was signed with Hungary, establishing a
mixed supervisory commission; it met twice: 1995 and 1996. Since 1949
there had been benign conditions for social and political activity. The last
to form was the Hungarian People's Party of Croatia (Horvatorszagi Magyar
Neppart) under the leadership of Csorgits Jozsef. The central government
provides financial support, currently estimated at DM 400000 annually.
3 ECONOMY The war has brought catastrophic conditions: demolished
homes, ruined infrastructure. To date reconstruction just planned, hardly
begun.
4 EDUCATION Since the 1991 war, of the 41 Hungarian educational
institutions only one is functional , in Osijek (Eszek). Those who fled to
Hungary, have been receiving full time instructions, while others have only
partaken in part-time informal activities. The mixed commission has made
plans for school reconstruction.
5 RELIGION The Hungarian population is roughly half Catholic and half
Reformed. While the Catholic hierarchy is largely unchanged since the war,
the Reformed Church is still unorganized. Physical property (Churches,
schools, buildings) largely demolished. There is also a shortage of ecclesiasti
c
personnel.
6 CIVIC ORGANIZATIONS  Before the 1991 war, a number of civic groups
had functioned, dedicated to professions and science.  These are in the
process of being resurrected, typically from Zagreb, where physical facilities
still exist
7 MEDIA There are no daily papers. Two weeklies, one with support from
Hungary. There had been government support available, which is now in
dispute. The Osijek radio broadcasts 30 minutes of Hungarian news daily.
8 MAJORITY environment. The nationalistic, largely anti-Serb tendencies have
produced undesirable fallout for Hungarians, though this is largely unintended.
There had been some regulations designed to assist Hungarian needs- mostly
as exceptions to laws and regulations that were designed with anti-Serb intent.
Anti-Hungarian expressions have been largely directed only at media in
Hungary.
A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408
+ - HTMH-Croatia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is a second in the series "Transborder Hungarians" summarized from the
HTMH's 1996 report.

B CROATIA

1.DEMOGRAPHICS. Hungarians live in "Baranya"and East Slavonia. From a
peak of  76 thousand (1921) the 1991 census listed but 22 thousand. Since
the 1991 Serb invasion, another 8500 have left the area: many for Hungary,
other parts of Croatia and elsewhere.
2. LEGAL  Rights have been changing along with the fortunes of war. Today
there is but one Hungarian mayor, who is also district (jaras) supervisor. In
1995 a minority rights agreement was signed with Hungary, establishing a
mixed supervisory commission; it met twice: 1995 and 1996. Since 1949
there had been benign conditions for social and political activity. The last
to form was the Hungarian People's Party of Croatia (Horvatorszagi Magyar
Neppart) under the leadership of Csorgits Jozsef. The central government
provides financial support, currently estimated at DM 400000 annually.
3 ECONOMY The war has brought catastrophic conditions: demolished
homes, ruined infrastructure. To date reconstruction just planned, hardly
begun.
4 EDUCATION Since the 1991 war, of the 41 Hungarian educational
institutions only one is functional , in Osijek (Eszek). Those who fled to
Hungary, have been receiving full time instructions, while others have only
partaken in part-time informal activities. The mixed commission has made
plans for school reconstruction.
5 RELIGION The Hungarian population is roughly half Catholic and half
Reformed. While the Catholic hierarchy is largely unchanged since the war,
the Reformed Church is still unorganized. Physical property (Churches,
schools, buildings) largely demolished. There is also a shortage of ecclesiasti
c
personnel.
6 CIVIC ORGANIZATIONS  Before the 1991 war, a number of civic groups
had functioned, dedicated to professions and science.  These are in the
process of being resurrected, typically from Zagreb, where physical facilities
still exist
7 MEDIA There are no daily papers. Two weeklies, one with support from
Hungary. There had been government support available, which is now in
dispute. The Osijek radio broadcasts 30 minutes of Hungarian news daily.
8 MAJORITY environment. The nationalistic, largely anti-Serb tendencies have
produced undesirable fallout for Hungarians, though this is largely unintended.
There had been some regulations designed to assist Hungarian needs- mostly
as exceptions to laws and regulations that were designed with anti-Serb intent.
Anti-Hungarian expressions have been largely directed only at media in
Hungary.
A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408
+ - Re: Packo's Hot Dogs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> M.Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >P.S. ( and this is where Taco Bell came from? )
>
> No, that is a Mexican telecommunication company :-)))).
>
> J.Zs
You always learn something new...   I thought it was a Southern
California telephone company.

Charlie
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am probably articulating the prejudices of my parents because, having left Hu
ngary when I was five years old, all of 52 years ago and I have not had direct 
dealings with gypsies in Hungary. I definitely agree that there was not much fo
r them but I think it shows just how intractable a problem they were over centu
ries. I do not agree that they were refugees within Hungary though you could re
gard them as such from say Romania or Serbia, later Jugoslavia. 

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Joe Szalai[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 2 April 1997 13:06
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

At 08:47 AM 3/31/97 +1000, Denes BOGSANYI wrote:

>I think it is a very complex issue. Over a matter of centuries the gipsies
>represented a life-style and a world view diametrically opposite to the
hopes >of the other people living there whether in the country or in the
towns.
>The gipsies were nomads

So were the Huns and the Magyars, at one time.

>They carried lice and the people in any district where they camped were in
>terror of typhoid and other epidemics against which the gipsies were
partly >immune but which they spread.

Who didn't carry lice?  And don't forget that most people carry disease to
which they are immune.  This is not a gypsy thing.

>They were a nightmare for public health workers. Their children because of
>their nomadic life-style did not attend school and this at a time when
>compulsory education was being enforced in the countryside.

When did education become compulsory?  And why were the Gypsies nomadic at
that time?  Actually, I don't believe that they were nomadic late last
century.  They moved on because they weren't wanted.  There was no place
for them in Hungarian society.  Might it not be more accurate to call them
refugees, rather than nomads?

>For the law enforcers the gipsies were a useful scapegoat but with good
cause. >A large percentage of robberies, petty theft, petty fraud etc., was
perpetrated >by gipsies moving through a district.

They didn't have many other career opportunities, did they?  What would you
have done if you were in their shoes?

Do they get all the blame?

<snip>
>I am sorry if all this sounds anti-gipsy but with the best will I have not
been >able to write positive things about them. Maybe someone else can.

It doesn't sound anti-gypsy.  It sounds defeatist.  You acknowledge that
there's a problem, but you just throw up your hands.  Hungarians have been
doing that for hundreds of years.  When's it going to end?  When will there
be a genuine reconciliation of the two peoples?

Were Gypsies Europe's first 'Pakis'?

Joe Szalai
+ - Falu végén kurta kocsma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Oda rug ki a Szamosra
megi is látná magát benne 
Ha az éjj nem közeledne

Az éjszaka közeledik
A világ elcsendesedik
Pihen a komp kikötotték
Benne halgat a sötétség

De a kocsma bezzeg hangos
Munkálkodik a cinbalmos
Alegények kurjongattnak
szinte reng belé az ablak

Kocsmárosné arany virág
Hozza ide legjobb borát
Vén legyen mint örganyám 
És tüzes mint iffju babám

Egyszer jönnek kopogtatnak
Csendesebben mulassanak!
Azt üzeni az Uraság
Hogy lefekütt
S aludni vágy!

Az ördög bujjék az uradba
És Te! Pedig menny a pokolba!
Húzd rá cigány csak azért is
Ha mindjart az ingemért is

Megint jönnek kopogtatnak
Csöndesebben mulassanak.
A Jó Isten aldja meg bennüket
Szegény Édesanyám beteg

Feleletet eggyik sem ad
Kihörpintik boraikat
Véget vetnek a zenének
S hazamennek a legények

Tisztelettel
Dénes
+ - Re: Numerus..... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Apr  1 16:47:02 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #956:

>Here we are speaking of serious paranoia. And
>this paranoia pervades the whole right. One prominent member of the former
>SZABAD is convinced that the SZABAD had to be closed because one of the
>contributors called attention to a Forbes magazine article on Soros which
>claimed that Soros is financing the SZDSZ and before any discussion could
>have taken place of this topic, bang, the SZABAD was closed. The only
>conclusion that I can draw from this that according to this gentleman the
>SZDSZ put pressure on poor Jozsi Hollosi. It doesn't even occur to them that
>Hollosi just might have gotten tired of such articles as the article on
>"Easter week" which was outright stomach turning.

I don't recall the article entitled "Easter week", so I can't comment on it.
 But here is what Jozsi Hollosi wrote:

"Sajnos mostanra a moderalatlan forum ellen folytatott askalodas lesullyedt
a feljelentesek es hivatalos ragalmazasok szintjere, amelyek ellen - bar
nyilvanvaloan alaptalanok - hadakozni, es magyarazkodni sem idom, sem
energiam."

Rough translation: "Unfortunately by now the attacks against the un-moderated
forum have sunk to the level of  denunciations and official libeling that --
while obviously unfounded -- I have neither the time nor the energy to fight
or reason against".

I think it is clear from the above that Jozsi closed the FORUM/SZABAD against
his better judgement because his hand was forced.  Everyone is free to guess
just who or what was the source of that pressure.  My guess is that it may
have been someone who had some control over the financial, personnel or
computer resources HIX needs to maintain its operations.  Whether that
includes the Soros interests is open to speculation.  What is not subject to
speculation is that Jozsi did not act on his own.

>...Forbes is available in Hungary as well and that about half a million
Hungarians can read English and discuss the >article to their hearts'
content.

That is about five percent of the population.  For the rest, Hungarian media
later supplied a sanitized version in Hungarian, and only after word of the
article had spread, thanks largely to the fraction that reads English.

Ferenc
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:09 PM 4/2/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

<snip>
>Hallo Joe,
>"Pakis"? Help me. Possibly I should know, I don4t know.

"Pakis" was/is a derogatory term applied to people from Pakistan, India,
Sri Lanka, etc..

Joe Szalai

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