At 12:04 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote, in response to Joe Szalai
writing :
[snip]
>> I thought that
>>maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.

>Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"

A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.

Gabor D. Farkas

In a message dated 97-04-25 20:01:27 EDT, you write:

<< Ferenc Novak wrote:
 >
 >   on Apr 22 19:52:18 EDT 1997 in HUNGARY #977:
 >
 > >... for Borsszem Janko, try Tom Thumb.
 > >Eva Balogh
 >
 > No; Tom Thumb is Hu"velyk Matyi
 >
 > Ferenc
> Mondom, Johnny Pepper. >>


Nah,  it is Johnny Peppercorn :-)

At 06:10 AM 4/25/97 -0400, Ferenc Novak  wrote:

>>... for Borsszem Janko, try Tom Thumb.
>>Eva Balogh
>
>No; Tom Thumb is Hu"velyk Matyi

Does Babszem Janko ring any bells?

Farkas D. Gabor

At 12:19 AM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:04 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote, in response to Joe Szalai
>writing :
>[snip]
>>> I thought that
>>>maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.
>
>>Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"
>
>A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
>Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
>people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

Personally, I think it's jealousy.... because we are so much prettier
and more handsome....:-)

In 1975 or so I wrote a letter to the editor of Omni magazine, debunking
the myth of Dracula and telling them that I never heard of it until I came
to the States. Since it was read by millions I thought I put the whole
issue to rest.... fat chance!

And when I think that the whole think was created in some bored
Englishman's sick, twisted mind who never bothered to visit the
locale in which he placed that garbage....

OTOH, my wife thinks that Nosferatu is sexy.... so who am I to complain?


Mysterious? Perhaps! Brilliant and good-looking? Definitely!
Klaus Kinski did not do us any justice.

:-) :-)

Bandi

Dominus wrote:
>
> Elizabeth Gulacsy > wrote:
>
> >Lipot and Lipolt.  I assume Lipot is the
> >correct form (for Leopold).
> >Borsszem Janko.  Name of a satirical journal or magazine.  How would
> >you translate this into English.
>
> 1/. Lipo't would be the correct Hungarian form
>
> 2/. As for Borsszem Janko, I would try: Johnny Peppercorn.
> Even the rhytm is similar.
>
> Regards: Dominus
This is at least something similar to Johnny Pepper
Salve
Miklos

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 06:10 AM 4/25/97 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>   on Apr 22 19:52:18 EDT 1997 in HUNGARY #977:
> >
> >>... for Borsszem Janko, try Tom Thumb.
> >>Eva Balogh
> >
> >No; Tom Thumb is Hu"velyk Matyi
>
>         Not according to Laszlo Orszagh. Or rather, both mean the same
> thing. As far as the magazine is concerned I am sure that the pepper, and
> the expression "borsot torni valakinek az orra ala" also had something to do
> with the choice of name, but such expressions as "kicsi a bors, de eros,"
> meaning, "the pepper corn is small but hot" leads me to believe that at
> least the original meaning had something to do with "smallness."
>         ESB
 ...ceterum censeo...Johnny Pepper

Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>
> At 12:19 AM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 12:04 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote, in response to Joe Szalai
> >writing :
> >[snip]
> >>> I thought that
> >>>maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.
> >
> >>Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?
"
> >
> >A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
> >Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
> >people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.
> >
> >Gabor D. Farkas
>
> Personally, I think it's jealousy.... because we are so much prettier
> and more handsome....:-)
>
> In 1975 or so I wrote a letter to the editor of Omni magazine, debunking
> the myth of Dracula and telling them that I never heard of it until I came
> to the States. Since it was read by millions I thought I put the whole
> issue to rest.... fat chance!
>
> And when I think that the whole think was created in some bored
> Englishman's sick, twisted mind who never bothered to visit the
> locale in which he placed that garbage....
>
> OTOH, my wife thinks that Nosferatu is sexy.... so who am I to complain?
>
> Mysterious? Perhaps! Brilliant and good-looking? Definitely!
> Klaus Kinski did not do us any justice.
>
Erdely soetetben bujkalo ellensegei...reszkessetek!

Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-04-25 20:01:27 EDT, you write:
>
> << Ferenc Novak wrote:
>  >
>  >   on Apr 22 19:52:18 EDT 1997 in HUNGARY #977:
>  >
>  > >... for Borsszem Janko, try Tom Thumb.
>  > >Eva Balogh
>  >
>  > No; Tom Thumb is Hu"velyk Matyi
>  >
>  > Ferenc
> > Mondom, Johnny Pepper. >>
>
> Nah,  it is Johnny Peppercorn :-)
Reasonable compromise :-)

S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> At 12:04 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote, in response to Joe Szalai
> writing :
> [snip]
> >> I thought that
> >>maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.
>
> >Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"
>
> A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
> Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
> people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
At least they respect your teeth! Forgetting that your name meant
just wulf and not devil ( Dracul (a which indicates, his was of small
stature ))
MKH

S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> At 06:10 AM 4/25/97 -0400, Ferenc Novak  wrote:
>
> >>... for Borsszem Janko, try Tom Thumb.
> >>Eva Balogh
> >
> >No; Tom Thumb is Hu"velyk Matyi
>
> Does Babszem Janko ring any bells?
>
> Farkas D. Gabor
Bab? well, not exactly bells...

--PART.BOUNDARY.0.29765.emout15.mail.aol.com.862067522
Content-ID: >
Content-type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Colleagues,

In addition to our ongoing efforts on the Danube, we were successful with=
 a
number of other recent actions:

1) Jointly with the Romanian Lobby, we asked President Clinton to see the
Dalai Lama and he did.

2) Thanks to the efforts of Andy Vadasz, Gotthard Saghi-Szabo and Andras
Szeitz, our collection for the restoration of the Kossuth Monument in New
York has reached the 75% mark.

3) Thanks to Odon Sandor, the Hungarian language csando newspaper (Moldva=
i
Magyarsag, edited by Osz Eros Peter), the Hungarian school at Leszped
operated by Feher Kati and the Csango Fund, operated by Domokos Pal Peter
(Csikszereda), all received financial support.=20

Please find attached 4 form-letters which should be reproduced and
distributed among your family, friends and co-workers.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
LIST OF HL-ACTIONS IN PROGRESS
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX=20

NOTE: The code number next to each topic refers to the individual who
initiated it. All are listed in numerical at the end of this status summa=
ry.
=20
BACKGROUND INFORMATION (Articles, Lists)

Cs=E1ng=F3 Problem (13 and 43)
Danube and the Compromise Plan (50)
E-Mail Lists of Media, Politicians, Environmentalists (2)
Gyulafehervar Declaration (44)
(Hataron tuli magyarok hivatala) or HTMH 1996 annual report (7)=20
Hungarian Economy (34)
Hungarian History (1, 24 and 56))
Hungarian-Romanian Treaty's Text in both Hungarian and English (7 & 22)
Linguists Against the Slovak Language Law (26)=20
Our Blind Spot for Vojvodina (2)
Overview and Data on Hungarian (7)
Pannonhalma (2)
Proclamation of the Hungarians in Slovakia (2)
Road to Peace: Collective Human Rights (2)
Slovak Constitution (4)
Slovakia's Hungarian Minority (41)
South Tyrol Precedent for Autonomy (45)
State Dept.: Romanian Human Rights Practice (32)
Subcarpathia (4)
Transylvania and the Romanian Constitution (3)
Trianon - Including Literature List (2,43 and 51)
Vojvodina (1 and 43)
Vojvodina, history of genocide (33)
Voting rights of dual citizens (22)
1956 Memoirs (2)

LETTER, ARTICLE AND FAX CAMPAIGNS (Formletters)

Cry Hungary - Demand to show the BBC film in Hungary (2)
Csangos - 10 ways to help (2)
              - Allow them to hear the Holy Mass in their native language=
 (2)
              - Letters to Vatican Radio, the Vatican paper L'Observatore=
 and
                to Archbishop of Gyor (25 and19)
              - Letter to President Goncz to discuss with Pope on 6/3/97 =
(2)
              - Protest the "hands-off" policy of the Hungarian Catholic
                Church (55)
Danube - Chain letter to spread news of "SAVE THE BLUE DANUBE" web site (=
50)
            - International Court of Justice (2)
            - Letters to President Clinton, Vice President Gore, ICJ
President Schwebel                    and Secretary Albright (Attached)
            - Place our web-page on as many servers as possible (49)
            - Protest J.P. Morgan financing (2)
            - Protest Szenasi's acceptance of C-varianr (2)
            - Support for Environmental NGO Memorial (2)
            - Support Compromise Plan (2)
            - Support Clinton's environmental hub for the Szigetkoz (2)
            - Homepages on Danube related information (49), Our own:
               http:/mineral.umd.edu/hl/duna
               http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
              Supporters:
               http://www.interdnet.hu/greenpoint.htm
               http.//origo.hnm.hu/danube_doc/
               http:/gurukul.ucc.american.edu/TED/HUNGARY.HTM
Debt Repayment by Hungarian Stocks, Recommendation to Finance Minister (2=
)
Demand Slovak Apology for Expulsion of Hungarians after WW2 (2)
Habitat Housing Project of President Carter, Assistance (42)
Hungarian Secret Police - Demand opening the III/II Files (2,11,31)
                                    - Oppose 80 year secrecy of "oilgate"=
 (2)
Protesting Gerrymandering in Slovakia (2)
Protesting Slovak Destruction of Hungarian Monuments (19)
Protesting Slovak Language Police ( 9)
Protesting Slovak Law Forbidding the Singing of National Anthems (19)
Rehabilitate Ilonka Toth, Request to Justice Minister (2)
Roma Problem: - Asking for Protection of Romas (2)
                        - Used clothing for the Transylvanian Roma (30)
                        - Protection against skinheads (57)
Romanian Lobby (Joint Action): - Support for NATO membershih (63)
                                              - Support for Dalai Lama an=
d
for autonomy of Tibet (2)
Support: Democracy movement in Serbia (52)
Support for Somorja's Mayor on Language Law's Constitutionality (2)
Support for Unitarian Statement on Human Rights in Romania (5)=20

OTHER PROJECTS
AP/Reuters/UPI, Obtain names and e-mail/fax of key reporters (19)
Coordinate our Efforts with:
                           Hungarian Minister for the Minorities (7)
                           Romanian Lobby (20)
Pal Cseresznyes: Collection for the Cseresznyes Fund (48)
Donations:     - TO HELP THE CSANGOS:
                             - For the Csango Szovetseg (52)
                             - For travel to Csiksomlyo (54)
                             - For supporting their newspaper and schools
(64)
                     - to Publish History of Bolyai Farkas Liceum (16 & 2=
0)
                     - for Building School Dormitory in Szabadka (27)
                     - for Hungarian Press in Slovakia (6)
                     - for Hungarian Press in Subcarpathia (62)
Kossuth Projects: - Web-page to coordinate efforts (7)
                           - New York statue restoration (61)
Support printing of postcards and stamps for Danube lawsuit (38)
Task-force to name 6th Avenue as Freedomfighter's Avenue (59)

NUMBER CODES:
1) 
2) HL archives at http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/archive/ or =
m
3) 
4) 
5) 
6) L=E1szl=F3 B=F6jt=F6s, 11312 Fitzwater Dr. Brecksville, OH 44141
7) 
8) 
9) Eugene Megyesy Esq., fax: 303-832-3804
10) 
11) 
12) 
13) kurrah.cab.jgytf.u-szeged.hu  OR 
(14) 
(15) 
(16) Cultural Foundation for Transylvania, POB 1487, Washington DC 20013-=
1487
(17) Dr. J.L. Bollyky (fax: 203-967-4845)
(18) 
(19) =20
(20) 
(21) 
(22) 
(23) 
(24) http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/huncor.htm
(25) 
(26) 
(27) 
(28) HHRF fax: 212-996-6268, Hungarian Coalition fax: 202-775-5175
(29) 
(30) International Roma Federation, Sandor Balogh, VP. 308 E. 80th St. NY=
C
10021, Fax: 212-472-7782.
(31) 
(32) 
(33) 
(34) 
(35) Dr. I. Benko, 18222 Robin Ave, Somona, CA 95476
(36) 
(37) 
(38) Laszlo Kertesz, Veszprem, Varga u. 8/8, Hungary
(39) 
(40) 
(41) 
(42) 
(43) 
(44) =20
(45) 
(46) 
(47) Zonda Attila, fax: 011-40-65-168-511
(48) The Calvin Hungarian Presbyterian Church
11701-86 Street, Edmonton, Alberta, T5B 3J7, CANADA
(49) 
(50) http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm
(51) http://www.msstate.edu/archives/history/hungary.html
(52)  (Istok Gyorgy, Com: Cleja code: 5529, Jud: Bacau,
Romania) =20
(53) http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~protest96/
       http://mineral.umd.edu/protest96/
(54) Dr. Judit Gellerd, "Center for Free Religion" =20
       1012 Bryant Ave, Chico, California 95926
(55)  Dr. Istv=E1n Sereg=E9ly, Archbishop of Gyo" r
       H-3309 Eger, Sz=E9chenyi u. 1, HUNGARY
(56) http://www.net.hu/corvinus
       http://www.msstate.edu/archives/history/hungary
       http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/huncor.htm
(57)  (Dragoljub Ackovic)
(58)  Laszlo Berta (Tel: 216-941-2851, fax: 216-631-0262).
(59) Sandor Tecsy, 45 Huber Place, Yonkers, NY 10704=20
(60) Marcel Szabo:      
(61) Barbara Bollok (T: 212-535-3681, F: 212-734-6790)
(62) Karoly Balla, Ungvar, Var u (Zamkova) 8, 294000-UKRAINE
(63) 
(63) Foundation Szekely Faluert Alapitvany, Odon Sandor, POB 750068
       Forest Hills, NY 11375-0068
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
PS: Please sign and/or collect signatures for the attached four(4) form
letters.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


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--PART.BOUNDARY.0.29765.emout15.mail.aol.com.862067522--

At 12:19 AM 4/26/97 -0400, Gabor Farkas wrote:

<snip>
>A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
>Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired
>of people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.

You're being a bit sensitive and touchy on this, Gabor.  I think people
were looking for your tongue.  They wanted to see how you could have an
accent half way between Zsa Zsa Gabor's (no relation to you, I guess) and
Arnold Schwarzenegger's.

Joe Szalai

Gabor responds:

>>Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"
>
>A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
>Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
>people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.

It is a continuous battle.
At one of my work sies, it became fashionable to discuss the interests of
"stakeholders".
I always request them not to do that because it makes me very  nervous.

Regards,Jeliko.

Just for the Hungarian-speaking fan of the earlier Soros discussion as
an addition. From today4s ( April 26th, 1997 )Magyar Hirlap

MKH

         BELFVLD
                                                         1997. aprilis
26., szombat
                     Agrarkerekasztal: kormanyon bel|li vita a
                     fvldtulajdonlasrsl

                     A szekszardi hzsosok zjra sztrajkolnanak

                     Nem lesz sztrajk a vasztnal

                     Vnvizsgalatra kisz|l az MSZP

                     Beszamolnak a T. Haznak az ombudsmanok

                     Valtozik a kvzgysgylista

                     Banyarekultivaciss program nehizsigekkel

                     Hermann Imre: A fenyegetis kapitalizmusa

                     Pintir Dezsu interjzja, Magyar Balint m{veludisi is
                     kvzoktatasi miniszterrel, az SZDSZ |gyvivujivel

                     A rendururs korrupcis miatt zarva






Hermann Imre: A fenyegetis kapitalizmusa
                     Soros Gyvrgy a Kapitalista fenyegetis cmm{
tanulmanyahoz egy
                     kisebb kvnyvnyi sziljegyzetet mrtam, s elk|ldtem a
szerzunek.
                     Most ennek a levilnek nihany riszletit szeretnim -
a nagykanizsai
                     kvzgazdasz-vandorgy{lis alkalmabsl - az irdekludu
olvassk
                     figyelmibe ajanlani.
                     Kedves Soros zr, hinn|nk kell abban, hogy a helyes
gondolkozas
                     nemcsak a pinzpiacokon bizonyul hasznosnak, hanem
az ilet
                     valamennyi ter|letin - mondjuk -, pl. ippen a pinz
fogalmanak
                     helyretiteliben is, mert mindaddig, ammg a gazdasag
eszkvzekint
                     feltalalt pinz cilkint il az emberek (elumtiletes)
tudataban, addig a
                     Karl Popper altal megalmodott nyitott tarsadalom
nem fog
                     megvalssulni.
                     Vn nem kapitalista! Egy virbeli kapitalista nem
mondhatja, hogy
                     "amikor mar tvbb pinzre tettem szert, mint
amennyire sz|ksigem
                     volt", mert ha egy kicsit is kvr|lniz, lathatja,
hogy azok hajtanak
                     igazan a pinzre, akiknek mar rig sokkal tvbb van,
mint sz|ksig|k
                     lehetne, akar a legfiny{zubb iletvitelre.
Elgondolkozott mar azon,
                     hogy a civilizalt meg a filantrsp a
kvzgondolkozasban miirt nem
                     vsszetartozs fogalmak?
                     Talalja ki, hogyan lehet az emberek igazi
gondolkodasra tanmtasat,
                     a fanatizalhatatlan emberek kipzisit megvalssmts
oktatasi
                     rendszert bevezetni zgy, hogy az a hadiiparral
vsszemirhetu
                     profitot hozzon, is mar masnap sorba fognak allni
vnnil a
                     befektetuk, hogy tamogassak a nymlt tarsadalomirt
harcolskat.
                     Mi, az egykori kommunistanak hazudott orszagok
laksi, akik
                     valsban vagyakoztunk a nymlt tarsadalomra, ahol az
eszme nem
                     nyomhatja el a jszan iszt, nem alaptalanul
csalsdtunk, mert az
                     egyik hazugsagtengerbul a masikba csvppent|nk. A
"kommunista
                     rendszer" bukasaig kilsgott a fenek|nk a nadragbsl,
de hinn|nk
                     parancsoltak, hogy egy fejlettebb tarsadalmat
ipmt|nk. Most, hogy
                     mar lyukas nadragra sem telik, hinn|nk kellene,
hogy a szebb
                     jvvut jelentu gazdasagi nvvekedis egyetlen
lehetsiges ztjan
                     haladunk. Nem az univerzalis eszmikben csalsdtunk,
hanem azon
                     csodalkozunk, hogy a hazugsag mint eszme ennyire
univerzalis.
                     Azt hiszem, a nymlt tarsadalom megvalssmtasa mig
sok-sok
                     generacisn kereszt|l iduszer{ "harci feladat"
marad. Azt kell
                     alaposan atgondolni, melyek azok a biztos tudasnak
hitt
                     elumtiletek, amelyeket ki kell gyomlalnunk az
emberi fejekbul -
                     persze semmikippen sem fegyverrel -, is zgy kell a
feladatokat
                     zjrafogalmaznunk, hogy az a jelenleg ilu generacis
szamara is
                     sikerrel kecsegtetu aprs lipisekbul alljon. A
pozitmvabb tartalmat
                     pedig az jelentse, hogy mindez az emberibb iletet
szolgalja, is
                     nem a hatalom sziles mv{ dilibabjat.

                     A fu ellensig ugyanaz

                     Nincs zj ellensig, Soros zr, legalabbis ami az
emberi lit
                     emberibbi valasat illeti. Amista vilag a vilag,
ugyanaz az ellensig: a
                     hatalomvagy is a butasag. Az elubbinek variansai
tvbbek kvzt az
                     vnzis is a kapzsisag, az utsbbii pildaul egy ember
                     szarmazasanak irdemkint vals kezelise.
                     A szilsusiges ideolsgiat - volt/van a tvrtinelemben
mig nihany
                     tucat - mindig az jellemzi, hogy hiszi: a
valssaggal adekvat
                     gondolatot fizikailag likvidalni lehet. De vig|l is
minden
                     ideolsgianak meg kell buknia - meg is bukott -,
amelyik nem
                     hajlands a valssagot tudomasul venni. Az eredminy
                     szempontjabsl masodrangz kirdis, hogy szandikosan
eruszakos
                     figyelmen kmv|l hagyasrsl vagy butasagbsl eredu fel
nem
                     ismerisrul van szs. Ha emberek (millisk)
sorsrontasa a tit, a
                     tudatlansag - barmilyen jsszandikz - nem kisebb
b{n, mint a
                     szandikossag. A szabadversenyes kapitalizmus
fenyegetise azirt
                     is veszilyesebb, mert a valsdi szocialista elveket
hiszi hitelit
                     vesztettnek, a sajat hitelvesztisit pedig nem vette
mig iszre.
                     Mondjuk, David C. Korten Tukis tarsasagok
vilaguralma cmm{
                     kvnyve sokat segmthetne ebben az iszrevitelben.
Kedvenc
                     megfogalmazasomban: a kvzgazdasag-tudomany olyan
ip|let,
                     amelynek mocsarban van az alapja, is mi azon
vitatkozunk, a 45
                     vagy 50 fokos szvgben alls tetu a cilszer{bb.
                     Itt van pildakint a pinzpiac, ahol olyan "aru" van
forgalomban,
                     aminek nincs sajat irtike is vnmagaban alkalmatlan
emberi
                     sz|ksiglet kieligmtisire, ahol nem a megtermelt
arut kmnalom
                     megvitelre, is cserepartnerkint keresem azt, akitul
in a
                     sz|ksigletem kieligmtisire alkalmas arut
megvehetem. Tehat az
                     adasvitel targya nem aru, csak zgy lehet kezelni,
mintha aru volna,
                     mgy aztan nem is a tarsadalmi munkamegosztasban
"megtermelt
                     pinz" ker|l forgalomba, hanem ippen az
aruforgalomban
                     feleslegkint jelentkezu "szabad pinz", ahol a
risztvevuk cilja nem
                     az aktualis adas vagy vitel, hanem olyan
tranzakcisk sorozata,
                     amely vsszessigiben nyeresiges, is mig sorolhatnam,
mi minden
                     adsdik a pinzpiaccal kapcsolatosan, ami a
kvzgazdasagtan
                     szamara lehetusiget kmnalna, hogy reflexmv msdon
elgondolkozzik
                     rajta.
                     Azt kellene itt megvizsgalni, mi az az eszminy,
aminek meg kellene
                     felelnie a piacnak, amihez persze azt is
tisztaznunk kellene, hogy mi
                     a piac. Mert a tvrtinelmi usiduk homalyaba veszu
arucserihez
                     lassan-lassan mar semmi kvze. Emberi viszonyokat
t|krvz a
                     szabadpiaci mechanizmus, amelyben az egyre buv|lu
tarsadalmi
                     munkamegosztas kvr|lminyei kvzvtt, az egyre
kiszolgaltatottabb
                     vevu all szemben az egyre inkabb monopolhelyzetben
levu
                     eladsval. A vevu egyre kevisbi szabad dvntiseiben,
az elads
                     pedig az |gyleteinek kiirtikeliskor nem a
sz|ksigletkieligmtis
                     minusigit veszi gsrcsu ala, hanem a profit
nagysagat, is hibanak
                     nem azt tekinti, hogy - mondjuk -
monopolhelyzetivel visszailt,
                     hanem ha csvkkent a profitja.
                     Nem vonatkozik ez a piaci "elemzisem" persze a
pinzpiacokra,
                     mert ott latszatkereslet all szemben
latszatkmnalattal, hiszen
                     vevunek, eladsnak azonos a "sz|ksiglete": a
nyeresig. A
                     kvzgazdasagi elmiletek pedig ebbul latszatvilagot
hoztak litre
                     mestersigesen. Mgy aztan nem tudatosulhat, hogy a
gazdasagi
                     stabilitas is a pinz|gyi stabilitas kit k|lvnbvzu
dologga valt az
                     iduk soran. Ily msdon lehetsiges a pinz|gyi
stabilitas
                     megteremtisivel megnyomormtani egy-egy nemzet
gazdasagat,
                     vagy a pinzben szamolt GDP-nvvekminnyel mirni a
gazdasag
                     fejludisit, is nvvekvu GDP mellett az
ellehetetlen|lis feli
                     hajszolni egy orszagot. Ha ez mgy tzl elvont lenne,
mondanik egy
                     picinyke konkrit pildat. Tiny: Magyarorszagon
1995-ben kilenc
                     is fil srai netto alkalmazotti atlagfizetisbul
lehetett venni annyi
                     budapesti villamosjegyet, mint 1988-ban egy
sraibsl. Allmtas: nincs
                     jszan ember, aki ezt a gazdasagi fejludis jelinek
irtikeli. A tiny
                     az tiny, az allmtas magaban hordozza a tivedis
lehetusigit.
                     Az emberek nem h|lyik. A hatalom jsl tudja, hogy az
emberek
                     (egy risz|k) bizonyos irzelmek mentin
fanatizalhatsk, de rosszul
                     hiszi, hogy ebbul az alkalmi gondolkodaskiesisbul
az kvvetkezik,
                     hogy korlatlanul ostobanak lehet uket nizni. Talan
nem tudjak, mit
                     jelent a reflexmv kvlcsvnhatas, meg a laissez-faire
ideolsgia, de azt
                     nagyon pontosan - a valssagnak megfeleluen -
tudjak, hogy ha ma
                     kitszer-haromszor vagy vtszvr annyit kell
dolgozniuk egy kils
                     kenyirirt, egy liter tejirt, azonos mennyisig{
aramirt, gazirt,
                     benzinirt, mint kit-harom-hit ivvel ezelutt, akkor
a gazdasag nem
                     elure, hanem visszafejludik. Meg aztan k|lvnvsebb
filozsfiai
                     kipzettsig nilk|l is tudjak, hogy az ilet irtelmit
nem a husi
                     ihhalal jelenti egy filreirtett kvnyvelistechnika
bevitel is kiadas
                     rovatanak egyezusigiirt folytatott harc mezejin.
Egyelure ennyit
                     az altalanosan gondolt, Magyarorszagra konkretizalt
public
                     policyrsl.
                     A piac nem irzelmi kirdis, szigorz racionalitas
vezirli "abban az
                     irtelemben, hogy szsba jvhetu alternatmvak
(kmnalat) kvzvtti
                     tudatos valasztasokat (kereslet) t|krvz." Ebben a
racionalitasban
                     hallgatslagosan az is benne foglaltatik, hogy a
vasarls nemcsak
                     tudatosan, hanem szabadon is valaszt lehetusigei
korlatainak
                     ismeretiben. A kmnalati oldal "racionalitasa"
viszont azt kvveteli
                     meg, hogy a piacon minil nagyobb profitra tegyen
szert. Az az
                     eredeti, normalis tvrekvis, hogy a lehetu
legkevesebb munkaval a
                     lehetu legtvbb sz|ksigletemet eligmtsem ki, a
piacgazdasagban
                     atfogalmazsdott: hogy irhetem el a legkisebb
kvltsiggel a
                     legnagyobb profitot. Itt viszont az az eredeti
tvrekvis, hogy
                     meglevu sz|ksiglet kieligmtisinek tvkiletesmtisivel
vagy zj
                     sz|ksiglet ibresztisivel buvmtsik a piacot is ilyen
msdon
                     nvveljik a profit tvmegit, egyre inkabb atalakult,
is ma mar az a
                     kirdis, hogyan lehet bevitelre szert tenni zgy,
hogy lehetuleg ne
                     kelljen irte tenni semmit.
                     A piac kiterjesztisinek azt a gondjat, hogy az
emberek nem piaci
                     irtikrendszer alapjan cselekszenek, alapvetuen
megoldotta a
                     technika fejludisivel egyre buv|lu tarsadalmi
munkamegosztas. A
                     sz|ksigletek kieligmtisinek tzlnyoms tvbbsige
egyini munkaval
                     nem lehetsiges, a piachoz kell fordulni. Aligha
volna barkinek
                     autsja, ha ott kellene kezdenie, hogy elmegy
valahova vasircet
                     banyaszni.
                     A kiterjesztett piac tovabbi buvmtisinek irdekiben
viszont azokat
                     a renitenseket is meg kell rendszabalyozni, akik
nem atalljak
                     iletelvkint vallani, hogy csak annyi pinzt akarnak
keresni,
                     amennyi kiegyenszlyozott sz|ksigleteik
kieligmtisire elegendu. Mit
                     is lehetne kitalalni, ami az embereket haracsolasra
kinyszermti zgy,
                     hogy az ne |tkvzzik hagyomanyos erkvlcsi
meggyuzudis|kbe is
                     aztan a piacra kinyszermti uket zgy, hogy migis azt
irezzik:
                     szabad akaratukbsl cselekszenek?
                     Hat meg kell talalni a termiszet vrvk tvrvinyei
szerint valami
                     abszolzt biztosat, aztan ki kell talalni, ez milyen
vsszef|ggisben
                     transzformalhats emberi sz|ksigletti, aztan meg
kell jelenni azzal
                     az |zleti vallalkozassal, ami ezt a sz|ksigletet
kieligmti. Mi az, ami
                     munka nilk|l adott az emberrel kiegisz|lt
termiszetben? Sorolom:
                     halal, vregsig, termiszeti katasztrsfak, baleset, a
jvvu
                     ismerhetetlensige, a b{nvzis. Mi ebbul az emberi
sz|ksiglet?
                     Egyik sem, sut! De minden egyes ember aggsdik a
                     bekvvetkezis|ktul, is ennek a
fenyegetettsigirzisnek a
                     csvkkentise valss emberi sz|ksiglet. Meg kell ra
szervezni az
                     |zletet: biztosmtas. Raadasul ezek egy risze
kvtelezuvi tehetu, is
                     ha netan kevis profitot hoz, akkor privatizalhats,
meg szabad-
                     arassa tehetu.

                     Kizsakmanyolas helyett

                     Ezutan: lehet hirdetni, hogy okos ember bankban
tartja pinzit az
                     inflacis meg a b{nvzis ellen. Lehet biztatni ut,
hogy nvvelje
                     bankbetitjit, mert sohasem tudni, lehet, hogy
holnap
                     munkanilk|livi valik is akkor banhatja majd, hogy
nem tvrudvtt a
                     csaladja holnapjaval. Lehet iletbiztosmtast
kvttetni, ami ugyan nem
                     vid a halaltsl, de egy erkvlcsvs ember gondoskodik
a
                     hatramaradskrsl. Lehet baleset- meg
betegsigbiztosmtast kvttetni,
                     ami ugyan nem vid a baleset meg betegsig ellen, de
tamasz a
                     bajban. Lehet nyugdmjbiztosmtast kvttetni, ami
ugyan nem biztosmtja,
                     hogy megirj|k a nyugdmjaskort (ezt lehet
elusegmteni a korhatar
                     emelisivel), de akkor legalabb nincs kinek
visszaadni a befizetett
                     vsszegeket. Itt abbahagyom a felsorolast, mielutt
vigleg elszabadul
                     a cinizmusom.
                     Mivel pedig a js erkvlcs szerint az ember nem
hedonista, hanem
                     gondol a jvvure meg a csaladjara, el lehetett irni,
hogy erkvlcsi
                     kvtelessiggi tegy|k a gazdagodast, akar mas karara,
mgy valt
                     irtikki a pinz is a siker, az alkots munka is a
szolidaritas
                     helyett, mgy valt |zletti a hivatas.
                     Ahogy felip|lt az emberi munkat helyettesmtu
termelueszkvzvkre a
                     klasszikus kapitalizmus, zgy ip|lt fel az emberi
ilet termiszeti
                     bizonytalansagaira a fenyegetis kapitalizmusa,
amelyben mar nem
                     kell "kizsakmanyolni" az embereket, szabad
akaratukbsl odaadjak
                     az "irtiktvbbletet". Mgy valt a pinz - "ami valaha
pusztan az
                     adasvitel eszkvze volt" - mara az alapvetu irtikek
                     meghatarozsjava (ezt mrasa kulcsmondatanak tartom),
is a
                     szagulds {rhajsk meg szammtsgipek koraban a
termiszet
                     pildamutatsan demokratikus kirlelhetetlensigitul
vals filelem mgy
                     emelte vallassa a pinz mindenhatssagaba vetett
hitet.
                     Is folyik a vallas nyugati (szakirtu)
misszionariusainak tirmtu
                     munkaja, akik a pogany kelet szamos hazug
balvanyanak
                     ledvntisit kvvetuen, azt a kevis, de kivitelesen az
isszer{sigre
                     alapozott oltarat (nyugdmj-, egiszsig-, oktatas|gy)
is lerombolni
                     kvveteli. A helyi papok pedig engedelmesek, is a
hitelek
                     tvmjinf|stje altal okozott rossz latasi viszonyok
kvzepette, a
                     politikai k|zdutir viszontagsagai kvzt hanykolsdva,
vakbuzgsn
                     hirdetik az igit: there is no free lunch (nincs
ingyenebid), mikvzben
                     a kvltsigvetis perselypinzibul tartatjak fenn a
parteklizsiat.
                     Barmennyire szmvhez szsls is a vagyon is az
igazsagtalansag
                     kvzvtti, vn altal titelezett kvzvetlen kapcsolat,
amellyel az
                     zjraelosztas sz|ksigessigit indokolja, a dolog
ennil sokkal
                     bonyolultabb. Oh, nem az igazat vitatom, hanem az
igaza
                     egyszer{smtisit. Mert ugyebar elufordulhat, hogy az
zjraelosztassal
                     nemcsak korrigaljuk az elsudleges elosztas altal
sz|lt
                     igazsagtalansagokat, hanem az zjraelosztas
tr|kkjivel tovabb is
                     lehet nvvelni uket. Nizze csak meg, hogy az
"igazsagos
                     kvzteherviselis" cmmin hogyan lehet egyre csvkkenu
                     iletlehetusigeket tovabbkurtmtani. Meg aztan:
vannak pici
                     igazsagtalansagok, amikhez amzgy is hozzaszoktak az
emberek,
                     meg nagyok, amik t{rhetetlenek? Nem azirt kellene
az
                     igazsagtalansagok - miret|ktul f|ggetlen -
kik|szvbvlisire
                     erufeszmtiseket tenn|nk, mert az jelenteni a
tarsadalom rendje feli
                     menetelist? Csak akkora miret{ igazsagtalansagot
szabad a
                     kvltsigvetisi egyenszly irdekiben elrendelni, ami
mig t{rhetu,
                     mert a t{rhetetlen mar forradalmat okozhat, amitul
filni kell?
                     Emberhez milts iletet lehetetlen ilni abban a
tarsadalomban, ahol
                     filelem van, akar az emberek filnek, akar a
hatalom. Az
                     igazsagtalansagokat irtani kell, akar a legaprsbbat
is.

                     A jszan isz hatalmairt

                     A legratermettebbek fennmaradasa elvinek
alkalmazasa a civilizalt
                     tarsadalomra pedig azirt tives - eltekintve attsl
az alapallastsl,
                     hogy a civilizalt humanust is kellene jelentsen -,
mert az ember nem
                     biolsgiai tulajdonsagai kvvetkeztiben az evolzcis
eddigi, altalunk
                     ismert betetuzise, hanem gondolkods is
gondolatkvzlu
                     kipessigei miatt. Ebbul a szemszvgbul nizve aligha
igazolhats a
                     legerusebb a legvagyonosabb vszszef|ggis. A masik
baj az - mint
                     vn is utalt ra -, hogy a fejludist mig az ember
elutti evolzcis soran
                     sem a legerusebbek vittik elure, hanem a mutansok.
Az emberi
                     fejludist tekintve is azt lathatjuk, hogy nem azok
az emberek
                     vittik elubbre a vilagot, akik a sorban jsl
igazodnak, hanem akik a
                     sorbsl kilsgnak (nem a rosszirtelm{ deviansokra
gondolok
                     irtelemszer{en).
                     Itt lehet a helye a figyelmeztetisnek az
informaciss forradalom
                     lazaban igu embereknek: a jslinformaltsag nem
azonos a
                     kreativitassal.
                     Szerintem csak egyfajta demokracia van, mert ha
valaki valamilyen
                     fajta demokrata, az mar azt jelenti, hogy ez a
valamilyen fajta
                     gondolkodasmsd vallsinak primatusat kvveteli a
tarsadalmon
                     bel|l. Amikor azt mondom: egy- fajta demokracia
van, arra
                     gondolok, hogy a nip (a tarsadalom) fogalom, az
egyes emberek
                     lite tiny. Nekem a demokracia nem a tvbbsighez vals
igazodas
                     tvbb-kevesebb kinyszerit, hanem a minden egyes
ember
                     szabadon valasztott iletvitelinek
megvalssmthatssagat jelenti zgy,
                     hogy az in szabadsagom irvinyesmtise nem
akadalyozhatja a
                     masik azonos mirtik{ szabadsagat.
                     Az zn. tvbbsigi demokracia - bar hihetj|k, hogy
pillanatnyilag
                     nincs jobb - mindaddig iszonyz veszilyes marad,
ammg az emberek
                     m{veltsigre is tudasra ip|lu gondolkodasa nem
emelkedik arra a
                     szintre, ahol mar fanatizalhatatlan. Ammg azonban
az embereket
                     arra buzdmtjak, hogy olyasmire legyenek b|szkik,
amiben semmi
                     sajat irdem|k nincs (nemzetisig, vallas stb.), ammg
a nemzeti
                     tvrtinelmet az ellensig felett aratott dicsu
gyuzelmek sora mentin
                     oktatjak, meg a nemzet finykoranak emlegetik,
amikor nigy
                     tenger mosta hatarait, is a nemzet nagysagat az
altaluk uralt ter|let
                     nagysagaval mirni sugalljak, addig kevis a reminy
az altalam
                     valsdinak vilt demokracia feli haladasnak.
                     Egyetirt|nk abban, hogy a tivedhetusig tvrvinyire
nem lehet
                     eliggi sokszor figyelmeztetni az embereket,
k|lvnvsen a hatalmon
                     levuket. Azonban - zgy gondolom - a nymlt
tarsadalom eszmijinek
                     gyakorlati megkvzelmthetusigibe vetett hit|nket
migsem a
                     tivedhetusig mint olyan alapozza meg, hanem a
tivedhetusig|nk
                     tudataban az a tvrtinelmi tapasztalattal
alatamasztott tiny, hogy
                     kipesek vagyunk tivediseink kijavmtasara.
                     A nagy szemliletvaltasoknak van tvrtinelmi
eluzminye, csak a
                     gyors szemliletvaltasoknak nincs. A heliocentrikus
vilagszemlilet
                     hivatalos elfogadasa 2000 ivbe tellett. Az isz
hatalmanak
                     |nneplise mar a kvzipkorban elkezdudvtt, nihany
szaz iv mzlva
                     a francia forradalom kultuszt csinalt az irtelem
dicsumtisire, is
                     most, 200 ivvel kisubb - kvzben volt egy ipari
forradalom, meg
                     ilyen-olyan forradalmak egisz sora, most ippen az
informaciss
                     forradalom a divat -, mig mindig az immar tvbb szaz
iv sta
                     |nnepelt, de mig meg nem irkezett
jszan-isz-hatalomnak
                     eljvveteliirt kell k|zden|nk.
                     Az irtelmessig az isz ciliranyos cselekvisit
jelenti. Az "isznek"
                     korlatot szab a termiszetrul alkotott ippen
aktualis tudasunk
                     nagysaga. Az irtelem szabadsaga az isz korlatai
kvzvtt vigtelen
                     (ha szabad ezzel a kipzavarral iljek). A cilt kell
jsl
                     megfogalmazni, is az irtelem tivedhetusige ellenire
csodakra lesz
                     kipes - talan az unokaink meglatjak.

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
> >Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired
> >of people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.
>
> You're being a bit sensitive and touchy on this, Gabor.  I think people
> were looking for your tongue.  They wanted to see how you could have an
> accent half way between Zsa Zsa Gabor's (no relation to you, I guess

Just the looking, I take ;-)
) and
> Arnold Schwarzenegger's.
>
MKH

I do not know whether you are familiar with the German ballad "Der Rattenfänger
 von Hammeln". In the final stanza it say that there is a story that the childr
en led away by the "Rattenfänger" are the ancestors of the Saxons in Transylvan
ia. What is interesting is that a good proportion of the Saxons in Transylvania
 did originate from around Hammeln.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  S or G Farkas[SMTP:]
Sent:  Saturday, 26 April 1997 14:20
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Erdely

At 12:04 AM 4/23/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote, in response to Joe Szalai
writing :
[snip]
>> I thought that
>>maybe they were from Erde'ly, or some mysterious place like that.

>Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with "mysterious?"

A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 12:11 PM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Gabor responds:
>
>>>Gabor! Miklos! anyone!.... are you gonna let him get away with
"mysterious?"
>>
>>A little late, but here I am. No way! It's about time all this BS about
>>Transylvania is ended, at least on this list. Since 1975 I became tired of
>>people looking at my teeth when I confessed being from THERE.
>
>It is a continuous battle.
>At one of my work sies, it became fashionable to discuss the interests of
>"stakeholders".
>I always request them not to do that because it makes me very  nervous.
>
>Regards,Jeliko.

Et tu, Brute?.... :-)

>

At 06:52 PM 4/26/97 +0200, you wrote:

>Just for the Hungarian-speaking fan of the earlier Soros discussion as
>an addition. From today4s ( April 26th, 1997 )Magyar Hirlap
>
>MKH
>
>         BELFVLD
>                                                         1997. aprilis
>26., szombat
>                     Agrarkerekasztal: kormanyon bel|li vita a
>                     fvldtulajdonlasrsl
>
>                     A szekszardi hzsosok zjra sztrajkolnanak
>
>                     Nem lesz sztrajk a vasztnal
[....]

Sorry, Miklos.... I guess I have been away for too long because I
couldn't understand at all the text.... maybe it's just EudoraPro?

Bandi :-(

At 07:31 PM 4/26/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote:

>>Regards,Jeliko.
>
>Et tu, Brute?.... :-)

The secret's out. All that's good is from there.

Gabor D. Farkas

>>
>> Jawohl!  Agnes
>
>German you speak, too, Agnes? And without an accent!
>;-)))  Miklos

I think we discussed this once.  Remember, we compared Marillen mit
Aprikosen usw?  It is my second mothertongue, although since the German
books have been replaced in the libraries with Urdu and Cantonese, I have
no opportunity to read any more and I am getting quite rusty.  Agnes

At 07:45 PM 4/26/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 07:31 PM 4/26/97 -0400, Bandi Rozsa wrote:
>
>>>Regards,Jeliko.
>>
>>Et tu, Brute?.... :-)
>
>The secret's out. All that's good is from there.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

This is becoming inescapably clearer and clearer...
I always knew it, now maybe the rest of the world will
do too.

:-) :-)

Bandi