A thousand of thanks, Andra. Be free to ask me any doubt, date or fact
on Spain or any other current international political development, topics
quite better covered than History, as you have could see.

An Spanish friend:
Roberto Ortiz de Zarate
Computer and Documentation Centre
University of Bilbao
Spain


On Wed, 1 Mar 1995, Proj LTGK Reichhart wrote:

>
> Here you are some dates I have found in:
>
> Bo:lo:ni Jo'zsef: Magyarorsza'g korma'nyai 1848-1987, Akade'miai Kiado', Bp.1
9
   87
>                  (Governments of Hungary 1848-1987, Academic Press, Budapest 
1
   98
> 7)
>
> Dinnye's Lajos (Budapest,1901.4.16 - Budapest,1961.5.4)
> Fock Jeno" (Kispest,1916.5.16 - )
> Hegedu"s Andra's (Szilsa'rka'ny,1922.10.31 - )
> Ka'llai Gyula (Berettyo'u'jfalu,1910.6.1 - )
> Molna'r Erik (U'jvide'k,1894.12.16 - Budapest,1966.8.8)
> Szakasits A'rpa'd (Budapest, 1888.12.6 - Budapest, 1965.5.3)
>
> Friendly:
>
> Rappai Andra's
>

>        The group name is often the only clue the user has about the group
>        ==================================================================
>        without reading a selection of articles from the group.  There are
>        currently over 1300 Usenet news groups, and well over 10,000 groups
>        including all the other news hierarchies from alt to zer.  It is
>        not possible for users to read every group to find out which are of
>        interest to them.   Similarly, even a very popular group will only
>        be read by 1% of all Usenet users.  So the name has to make sense to
>        the 99% who are not reading the group.   It should be clear enough
>        to avoid users posting "what is this?" articles, and to ensure that
>        those who *would* like to know more about the subject do recognise
>        ==================================================================
>        the group's purpose and start to read it and join in.  Also, bear in
>        mind that Usenet is global, that users come from many different
>        cultures, and that for many, English is not their first language.
>[...]     - Use English words in group names.  The articles in a group should
>        use whatever language is appropriate for that group, but group names
>        should use English as that is the one language that can be
>        understood by almost all Usenet users.
>        =====================================
>
   It seems  to me that  this rule  makes the argument/discussion
about the language used moot. So let's go on with it.
   Still,  I wish somebody would  explain to us  less technically
inclined folks, in fifty words or less, the rest of the argument.
The fact that this argument/discussion has been transplanted here
from somewhere else in midstream, of course, does not help. But I
still would like to know what the techy argument is about.
   Thanks in advance for any enlightenment :-)),
                                                 Amos

   |==================================================================|
   |* * * * * *            ..."not the famous"             * * * * * *|
   |******************************************************************|
   |*  ( ( (      "Cherish Yesterday, Dream of Tomorrow,      ) ) )  *|
   |*   ) ) )             and Live for Today!"               ( ( (   *|
   |******************************************************************|
   |* * * * * * * * * * Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey *|
   || AMOS           *|        Library of Science and Medicine       *|
   |*      J.        **   P.O.Box 1029, Piscataway, NJ 08855-1029    *|
   ||         DANUBE |*     T.:908, 445-2896  Fax: 908, 445-3208     *|
   |* * * * * * * * * *      E-mail:       *|
   |==================================================================|

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Amos Danube wrote:
> >        The group name is often the only clue the user has about the group
> > [etc., a document expalinening why English names ought to be used]
>    It seems  to me that  this rule  makes the argument/discussion
> about the language used moot. So let's go on with it.
 Well, this is Usenet: no argument is ever moot ;-). There are no rules
only guidelines, more ore less closely adhered to by convention but not
formally enforced. Once a name passed the official vote and the group
created, as s.c.m had been, changing it requires another vote and each
voter eventually acts according to her preference rather than to some
rules, no matter how generally accepted they would be. That's why the
debate is going on. It corresponds to the observation of a sage: "in a
controversial group proposal, say involving politics, culture, or Star
Trek, there are people just waiting for you to breathe wrong". Here we
have culture, and possibly politics as well to boot ;-<...

>    Still,  I wish somebody would  explain to us  less technically
> inclined folks, in fifty words or less, the rest of the argument.
 I'm working on a short crash course, 5K words or slightly less ;-(, on an
intro to mailing-list readers. Now to have a shot at being exceedingly brief:

 - soc.culture.hungarian would be a very, very good thing to have

 - splintering the namespace with keeping the then semiredundant s.c.m is
not particularly good, and attempting to go with that may easily lead to
defeating the efforts to create s.c.h

> The fact that this argument/discussion has been transplanted here
> from somewhere else in midstream, of course, does not help. But I
> still would like to know what the techy argument is about.
 I've already posted some Usenet docs, and more are to come. There really
is no substitute for taking the trouble of reading the works of Usenet
old hands (that's not me ;-)), long-winded as they often appear to be.

 Note that I am crossposting this back to s.c.m from listserv.hungary!

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Micky Allen wrote:

>were true how much happier they must be, now that for the past 30 years since
>independance they have been "basket-cases", - come on you cannot blame
>everything on colonialists - whether they are proto, neo or whatever!!

I agree.  I don't blame everything on colonialism, and I actually have great
admiration for the accomplishments of the British and French in developing
a system of international industrialization, where resources from around the
world were used to build their respective empires.  The British and French
have made great contributions to the world, and though it was done for selfish
reasons, they created the infrastructure which their colonies could have used
to further develop into modern countries.  That this hasn't happened is their
own fault, no doubt.  In many parts of AFrica (I have friends from these places
who tell me this) the best universities or all umiversities are still British
run and have British standards, where there were no universities before.
Also, the democratic government everyone wants, and thinks is an American
creation, grew out of the great tradition of British law.  In fact, the
US Constitution is almost identical in thought to the Magna Carta, point for
point (I was surprised to learn this during a visit to see them in DC - there
is an original Magna Carta on permanent loan from Britian on display at the
National Archives Building).  Only the
French and Brits were able to develop the systems of government and organizatio
n
necessary to operate such vast and wide spread societies.  In contrast, Spain
failed miserably in a similar effort, resulting in marginally civilized and
totally unproductive societies in Central and South America.  The
explanations I've heard for this have been that Spain had no tradition of
self government at the time, just having thrown the Moors out 150years before.
IN fact even Spain, a European country, almost fell to an attempted coup in
1977 when the parlament was taken over.  This is why no Spanish colony has
been successful - there was no tradition of stable government to learnfrom.
The French and Brit legacies in the US, Canada,Austrailia, Hong Kong,
New Zealand, and South Africa are economic models which inspire the world.
That there have also been failures in Vietnam and parts of the middle east
does not take away from the accomplishments (I'm not sure how to classify
India; part success and part failure).

Paul

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

:  - soc.culture.hungarian would be a very, very good thing to have

Only if one buys into the idea that having lots more people who
recognize `hungarian' but not `magyar' would improve the
discussion...

The idea that more English-not-primary-language types will join
has to be weighed against the idea that a lot of dumber^H^H^H^H^H^H
less-well-informed (sadly, undoubtedly American) types will come
along.

But of course, quantity before quality, I always say.

--Greg

Zoli,

   Thanks a lot for the info. you have posted. I was kidding,
of course, by asking for info. of 50 words or less, but I ap-
preciate your effort to meet the request.
   I will watch out for more info.
   Thanks again,
                 Amos

   PS - I hope this won't be the second posting.  I had some
        problem with my first try.

The British weekly, the Economist, on February 4th under the headline
"Romania, Getting Nastier", writes the following:

Nationalism, never far from the surface in the Balkans, has broken
through in Romania-into government. Last month, the ruling Social
Democrats signed an agreement with the country's most extreme
parliamentary group, the openly anti-Semitic and generally racist Great
Romania Party. The pact also involved the former communists, now renamed
the Socialist Labour Party. Since a hysterical anti-Hungarian party, the
Romanian National Unity Party, had joined the cabinet last August,
nasties of every stripe are now in government.

Western diplomats pointed out beforehand that such alliances would not
improve the image of a country trying to attract foreign investment and
prepare the way for membership of the European Union. Most Romanians,
however, think the pact merely formalises a tacit agreement with three
extremist parties that has existed since 1992 when the Social Democrats
emerged as the biggest party, just, in the general election. In return
for support for its minority government in parliament, the Social
Democrats have doled out lots of junior ministerial posts and other plum
jobs to the extremists.

Their influence shows. Foreigners complain that contact with Romanian
officials has become more difficult. They now find soldiers at the
entrance to ministries whose doors were once open to them. The coolness
of the welcome owes something to the disillusion with reform and the
outside world felt by many Romanians: they expected more help from the
West in overcoming the legacy of 25 years of Nicolae Ceausescu. But it
also owes something to the "growing nastiness, the toughening up"
identified by a western diplomat. "It was always there but it's got
worse since the nationalist parties got closer to power."

One example of the extremists' influence is the rehabilitation of
Marshal Ion Antonescu, Romania's military dictator in the second world
war. Through their new jobs in the media, culture and education, the
extremists are now able to promote their hero. Antonescu fought the
Russians, allied Romania with Nazi Germany and allowed hundreds of
thousand of Jews to be killed or deported to concentration camps in
Poland. Yet state television recently aired a one-sided documentary,
produced and distributed by agencies of the ministry of culture, which
portrayed Antonescu as a great man. Ministry officials also attended the
unveiling of a statue of the marshal. The unamused American ambassador
said bluntly last month that a statue of Antonescu in Romania was
equivalent to one of Hitler in Germany or Mussolini in Italy.

Westerners are not the only ones alarmed at the turn of events. The new
Hungarian government would like to sign a friendship treaty and put
centuries of wrangling over Transylvania, Romania's ethnically mixed
western province, behind the two neighboring states. The Hungarians are
prepared to recognise borders and renounce territorial claims, if, in
return, Romania will guarantee the rights of the 1.6m ethnic Hungarians
on its side of the border.

But Romanian nationalists are doing their best to prevent a deal. Last
month, Gheorghe Funar, the leader of the anti-Hungarian party and the
wiliest Romanian nationalist of all, intensified his calls to ban the
ethnic Hungarians' political party. He also asked for ethnic Hungarians
to be prosecuted for flying Hungarian flags or singing foreign anthems,
and to be thrown out of the armed forces.

The government distanced itself from Mr. Funar, but then issued its own
tough statements against ethnic Hungarians. In response, the Hungarian
prime minister, Gyula Horn, cancelled talks with a Romanian delegation
on the morning they were due to take place last week. The row has
dampened Hungarian hopes of quickly concluding the friendship treaty
that is a condition of both countries' membership of the European Union
and NATO. The politicians' eyes, however, are set on the nationalist
vote in next year's election.

(The article is flanked by a photo showing Hitler with Antonescu giving
the Nazi salute.)

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Greg Grose wrote:
> :  - soc.culture.hungarian would be a very, very good thing to have
> Only if one buys into the idea that having lots more people who
> recognize `hungarian' but not `magyar' would improve the
> discussion...
 Uh-hoh, it's FIND not that multisyb^H^H^Hsly^H^H^H er long word y'got
there, dude ;-).
 In other words (and I am getting this eerie feeling of stuck in the groove
here ;-(), the issue here is not of recognition - as in 'I knew that word
(if only had my Webster next to my terminal)'. Rather the question is how
to make the group easiest to locate by possibly interested parties. Let's
keep in mind that Usenet is a medium using overwhelmingly English
descriptors (whether it's for good reasons is not quite relevant to our
discussion right now). So sticking with the one-in-thousands non-English
name is really counterproductive for the group. It's like to have an
encyclopedia entry on Hungarians tucked under the heading 'Magyar', with
no pointer whatsoever for those who look for the title Hungarian.

> The idea that more English-not-primary-language types will join
> has to be weighed against the idea that a lot of dumber^H^H^H^H^H^H
> less-well-informed (sadly, undoubtedly American) types will come
> along.
 Blissed are the dumb, as the Book sath (or something along that line).
As a matter of fact, s.c.m has been hit with the clueless grouping it
together with the Muslims, Maghreb or whatnot. That trend would not be
made worse by choosing a better name, would it?

> But of course, quantity before quality, I always say.
 And you expect me to supply you with smileys, don't you :-).
The task is to attract the right ones, not the many. Personally, I have
more faith in those who, given the newsgrouup menu conventionally (and
conveniently) consisting of English titles, whould choose "hungarian"
than in the 'let's check out whaddaheck 'tis exotic stuff is' streak. YMMV

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

: ...the question is how
: to make the group easiest to locate by possibly interested parties.

In that case, the group name should be AAAA_HUNGARY_SEX_MONEY
Check your Yellow Pages if you doubt me.

: The task is to attract the right ones, not the many.

Yes.  And I suspect that most of the right ones are in the old
country, for whom the name change is irrelevant.  What has been done
to popularize/advertise/propagate scm in the .hu domain?

--Greg









 Let's
: keep in mind that Usenet is a medium using overwhelmingly English
: descriptors (whether it's for good reasons is not quite relevant to
our
: discussion right now). So sticking with the one-in-thousands
non-English
: name is really counterproductive for the group. It's like to have
an
: encyclopedia entry on Hungarians tucked under the heading 'Magyar',
with
: no pointer whatsoever for those who look for the title Hungarian.
:
: > The idea that more English-not-primary-language types will join
: > has to be weighed against the idea that a lot of
dumber^H^H^H^H^H^H
: > less-well-informed (sadly, undoubtedly American) types will come
: > along.
:  Blissed are the dumb, as the Book sath (or something along that
line).
: As a matter of fact, s.c.m has been hit with the clueless grouping
it
: together with the Muslims, Maghreb or whatnot. That trend would not
be
: made worse by choosing a better name, would it?
:
: > But of course, quantity before quality, I always say.
:  And you expect me to supply you with smileys, don't you :-).
: The task is to attract the right ones, not the many. Personally, I
have
: more faith in those who, given the newsgrouup menu conventionally
(and
: conveniently) consisting of English titles, whould choose
"hungarian"
: than in the 'let's check out whaddaheck 'tis exotic stuff is'
streak. YMMV
:
: Zoli , finger  for the charter of
s.c.h
: * Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and
bitter
: * form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
: * Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos"
Dippold)

[ Article crossposted from atl.jobs ]
[ Author was Ravi Kandhal ]
[ Posted on 1 Mar 1995 07:55:35 -0800 ]


Axiom Systems is looking for a strong UNIX System Administrator

with Internet experience.

2-4 years of experience as System Administrator is required.

Qualified applicants please forward your resume via email or

fax at (404) 663-4842.

Jeff Lambert





--

\|/--_   -_-      ----           ###         _- ----------------------
-0    -_-   --       -__ %~- ____#0        _-   Elizabeth Strickler
|\     ^                 0\~     /\   /\  -
|_(___/ \_    ||_________/     _/  |_/  \_     

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Greg Grose wrote:
> Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:
> : ...the question is how
> : to make the group easiest to locate by possibly interested parties.
> In that case, the group name should be AAAA_HUNGARY_SEX_MONEY
> Check your Yellow Pages if you doubt me.
 Remember, we're talking Usenet:
"Usenet news group names are structured, hierarchic, taxonomic but not
definitive.  They are intended to help users find what they want and news
administrators manage their systems, to the benefit of their users."
 In addition to that, unlike the Gutenbergian YP the namespace is readily
searcheable (on sane computer systems anyway) for any substring, and
often not even presented alphabetically by default. But try alt.0magyar,
if you like. What was the point again ;-)?

> : The task is to attract the right ones, not the many.
> Yes.  And I suspect that most of the right ones are in the old
> country, for whom the name change is irrelevant.  What has been done
> to popularize/advertise/propagate scm in the .hu domain?
 Your suspicion is wrong, or at least a couple of decades premature. The
old country has very low Usenet availability. The few sites that have
non-local groups at all do carry s.c.m, and presumably would carry s.c.h
just as well - like you said, this is irrelevant. Two things may be
relevant, though. One is that parts becoming a newer country are going to
pick up hundreds of international groups like the soc.culture.*
hierarchy, and then their users will have to locate the hungarian one
from many other choices where all the rest are named English (|: da capo al
fine :|). Two is that some vanguard sites may outrun the country's
infrastructure and acquire news feeds from abroad - and requesting so
means international communication about things with conventionally
English descriptors, as in:
 Piripo1cstarcsa to Wien - Do you have any Hungarian interest newsgroup?
 Wien to Piripo1cstarcsa - (after frantically searching thru her
newsgroup list) Sorry guys, no such luck!
'Course a seasoned HU operator may find out for herself that s.c.m is to
be asked, if it occurs to her that the word "magyar" is to be looked for
among thousands of English names (|: da capo al fine :|)...
 Are you suggesting that extra propaganda resources should be wasted on
trying to make up for the problem generated by the non-conform name?

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Dear Netters and Zoli,
Before answering the sometime sarcastic ;-) comments on the usage
of the "Magyar" adjective, let me point out some of the deficiences in
Zoli Fekete's  Request For Discussion (RFD) concerning soc.culture.hungarian.
I will reply to the former topic in an upcoming post.
I think, without trying to be personal, Zoli's proposal is biased against and
divides those who would like to keep soc.culture.magyar either as a sole
Hungarian group or a coexisting alternative for discussions concerning
Magyar (Hungarian) issues.
In his former postings, Zoli was reasoning for creating a separate third or
fourth level transparent group, to ease the traffic on
soc.culture.magyar(hungarian). Despite this , he writes in his RFD -

> The past four years saw surprisingly small audience with low
> traffic for that group, which suggests that many people are unaware of
> its existence .

When Zoli was soliciting for a creation of a *.hix group, in
> he wrote :

> I feel that this s.c.m traffic has been somewhat heavier than usual
> (a similer measurement I made several weeks ago showed only about half as
much)

Well, I guess he'd make a good politician would not he ;-) ?

But seriously, his approach to the question, asking for (not yet decided! )
a new group - soc.culture.hungarian on the basis of low traffic, is I think -

a, not well founded - soc.culture.magyar is quite well and alive .
b, not clear and not just - those people who would like to have both groups,
   might vote for soc.culture.hungarian, and basically, in the case of
   soc.culture.magyar's cancellation, they would vote against themselves.


Before any further discussion, Zoli should make clear in his RFD what is it
we ought to vote for. My approach would be -
1, Based on the increased traffic , postings with several different interests,
   naming conventions, whatsoever, Zoli should ask for a creation of a new
   soc.culture.hungarian group.
2, If it fails, and there is still strong sentiment - as I think will be -
   for creating a soc.culture.hungarian group, there should be a separate
   RFD for renaming soc.culture.magyar
3, If the first RFD goes through, we can still decide whether to call an
   additional RFD for cancelling soc.culture.magyar(i hope it will not happen),
   or wait and  see how it manages to survive .

Although I do not agree with Zoli in many issues, I would like to point out
to many of the responders the calm and intelligent tone of his replies.
Partners on both sides of this debate should pay attention to it :-) .
Take care,
Gotthard

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:

: What was the point again ;-)?

The point is that not everybody buys into the idea that sch will
automatically be better because more people can find it; and that
there is a certain romantic attachment to the name magyar.

I'll live with either result, but you don't have to ask us to accept
that this is all cut and dried.

:  Your suspicion is wrong, or at least a couple of decades
premature.

Well, there we have our divide, because I for one don't see how scm
will be improved by a bunch of dumb Americans;  I acknowledge that
more internationals may find sch faster than scm; I suppose the older
one gets the less a month or two matters...

: Are you suggesting that extra propaganda resources should be wasted
: on trying to make up for the problem generated by the non-conform
: name?

Since I don't see a problem, I think the whole issue is a propaganda
waste.  And as such, I'm dropping the thread.

--Greg

Due to the illness of one of the members of the AUER Quartet,
the March 3rd concert at the Embassy of the Republic of Hungary
had to be cancelled.

--
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

I've been in this mail list about four days now. It seems that all you
discuss is what it should be named.

What did you discuss before this? I hope it was more interesting. I hope you
get back to discussing whatever it was that you were discussing.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing whether it should be "Hungarian" or "Mag
yar."

I joined because I am Magyar, and hoped to find other Magyars perhaps
discussing recent visits to Magyarorszag, or discussing how recent political
developments in Europe are affecting life in Hungary.

But, perhaps I joined the wrong group.
Maybe you should change the name to: "Discussions about what we should call
our group."

Jutka

Jutka,

You won;t find here what you were looking for :((

The discussions here seem to be about why Hungary sucks if and when they are
actually about Hungary, so I guess you will be disappointed.

Zoli

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Julie Corsi wrote:

> I've been in this mail list about four days now. It seems that all you
> discuss is what it should be named.
>
> What did you discuss before this? I hope it was more interesting. I hope you
> get back to discussing whatever it was that you were discussing.
>
> Frankly, I'm getting tired of hearing whether it should be "Hungarian" or "Ma
g
> yar."
>
> I joined because I am Magyar, and hoped to find other Magyars perhaps
> discussing recent visits to Magyarorszag, or discussing how recent political
> developments in Europe are affecting life in Hungary.
>
> But, perhaps I joined the wrong group.
> Maybe you should change the name to: "Discussions about what we should call
> our group."
>
> Jutka
>

On 2 Mar 1995, Gotthard Saghi-Szabo wrote:
> Before answering the sometime sarcastic ;-) comments on the usage
> of the "Magyar" adjective, let me point out some of the deficiences in
> Zoli Fekete's  Request For Discussion (RFD) concerning soc.culture.hungarian.
 Boy I'm glad you took me ahead :-). Let me insert my pointer here: the
contention is with the use of the word in s.c.* naming, not with the
adjective in general. And the sarcasm, while not a nice thing, was
provoced by the clash between your idealistic program and the reality of
Usenet.

> I think, without trying to be personal, Zoli's proposal is biased against and
> divides those who would like to keep soc.culture.magyar either as a sole
> Hungarian group or a coexisting alternative for discussions concerning
> Magyar (Hungarian) issues.
 I know it is divisive and it pains me a lot, if for no other reason than
because the splitting of votes my proposal needs. However, since I've
pondered quite a bit over how to proceed, I *am* biased in favor of the
option I see as the one with better chance of succeeding.
 I don't mind relaying this little personal story of how I got here. Back
in January finally I put together a plan for proposing s.c.h and sent a
letter to the Usenet advisory body group-advice asking them how sound it
was. The text I posted last week when starting the "SCM reorganization"
thread on s.c.m was taken from that letter - it shows that originally I
thought feasible to just create s.c.h. I did not think the Usenet at
large (the people who can vote on any plans concerning s.c.*) would be
thrilled to allow two 3-rd level national groups for us, but figured we
may squeeze it thru. That was because at that time my understanding was,
quite incorrectly it turns out, that renaming an existing newsgroup is
technically or procedurally difficult. So my hope was that there'd be
enough sympathy around for creating s.c.h, which is much better named
according to the Usenet conventions.
 Then came the reply from net.god.omnipotent tale answering that
*renaming* s.c.m to s.c.h is "right on spot"! That made me think more and
realize that making a cleft structure would cause too much trouble, even
for us current s.c.m-ers, to be worth pursuing the idea of paralel
creation (for the list of problems see either my own or Tamas Kocsis's
elaboration earlier).

> In his former postings, Zoli was reasoning for creating a separate third or
> fourth level transparent group, to ease the traffic on
> soc.culture.magyar(hungarian). Despite this , he writes in his RFD -
> > The past four years saw surprisingly small audience with low
> > traffic for that group, which suggests that many people are unaware of
> > its existence .
 Yikes,
 0) I was *not* reasoning to ease the traffic (but to organize it better)
 1) there can be no transparent 3rd level group, unless someone set up a
server to do that for Hollosi won't do it with HIX!
 2) my reason is not merely the volume of traffic, rather the anomaly of
having near 90% of it that is not netnews but email crossposts
 3) as my stat snapshot illustrated, there are a lot more people posting to
HIX than to the Usenet group. The resulting traffic from email shows up in
the newsgroup, thanks to Hollosi, but this has no relation to people
being aware of s.c.m at all. In fact, based the arguments proclaiming
the superiority of news over email one could conclude that most HIX-ers
are unaware of the group otherwise they would've flocked from under the
HIX-email yoke to the big green field here...

> When Zoli was soliciting for a creation of a *.hix group, in
> > he wrote :
> > I feel that this s.c.m traffic has been somewhat heavier than usual
> > (a similer measurement I made several weeks ago showed only about half as
much)
> Well, I guess he'd make a good politician would not he ;-) ?
 And you a good lawyer, trying to demonstrate that I meant what I didn't
say and was contradicting myself when indeed being consistent ;-(.
Perhaps my earlier data point was on the low side, this latter on
the high one. In any case, Usenet per se generates relatively little
traffic, especially compared to the email volume (remember, that's the
arcane thing where you have to know what address to send stuff in what
format ;-<)!

> But seriously, his approach to the question, asking for (not yet decided! )
> a new group - soc.culture.hungarian on the basis of low traffic, is I think -
 I mentioned the low traffic not as basis but an easily visible indicator of
the fundamental problem of the s.c.* group having the wrong name. The
RFD is way too long-winded already, I did not want to overweight it with
stuff that I think is obvious to news.groups readers: that having chosen the
name not conforming to the Usenet guidelines and its widely accepted
practice we've been inflicting damage on ourselves, the people interested
in Hungarian affairs.

> a, not well founded - soc.culture.magyar is quite well and alive .
 "Quite well" is a subjective judgement, it could be much better;
s.c.hungarian is not alive despite being needed more, which is more
important here IMHO

> b, not clear and not just - those people who would like to have both groups,
>    might vote for soc.culture.hungarian, and basically, in the case of
>    soc.culture.magyar's cancellation, they would vote against themselves.
 No-one can guarantee an easy life: a call for vote on a second
Hungarian group in s.c.* with retaining s.c.m may well draw many NO votes
from otherwise uninterested parties. Therefore to support no renaming is
to undermine s.c.h!

> Before any further discussion, Zoli should make clear in his RFD what is it
> we ought to vote for. My approach would be -
> 1, Based on the increased traffic , postings with several different
interests,
>    naming conventions, whatsoever, Zoli should ask for a creation of a new
>    soc.culture.hungarian group.
> 2, If it fails, and there is still strong sentiment - as I think will be -
>    for creating a soc.culture.hungarian group, there should be a separate
>    RFD for renaming soc.culture.magyar
> 3, If the first RFD goes through, we can still decide whether to call an
>    additional RFD for cancelling soc.culture.magyar(i hope it will not
happen),
>    or wait and  see how it manages to survive .

 I consider this an impractical approach. One voting cycle takes about
two months, possible more. Should the 1st fail the second would slide at
least way into the summer lull - *if* it were not to fall under the
6-month moratorium imposed on proposals for the same group (which it
probably would).
 And trying and failing #1 decreases chances for #2 compared to what
it'd have itself. There could be many more spite votes against a second
attempt, while many supporters may prefer not to be dragged thru the
process twice.
 I don't think that #3 merits separate consideration - while in my view
there are disadventages in having the redundant structure it's not worth
voting against. However I should emphasize that #1 is not considered
equivalent with #2 the way you seem to think! Exactly because #3 can be
dropped after getting #1, opposition against #1 without #3 is to be
concentrated against #1.
 Ideally a multi-way vote should handle this situation, but such is not
allowed under the current guidelines, unfortunately.

> Although I do not agree with Zoli in many issues, I would like to point out
> to many of the responders the calm and intelligent tone of his replies.
 CAAALM!?!!??? YOU CALLED ME THAT YOU ~!@#$%^&*()_+ ?!??!!
> Partners on both sides of this debate should pay attention to it :-) .
 All the more so for "my side" because changing the status quo, unlike
keeping it, requires a vote to win ;-)!

 In the meantime, shortly before receiving this piece I'm replying to, I
submitted my first RFD to news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,
soc.culture.magyar, soc.culture.europe. The Usenet posting won't come out
before several days needed for the n.a.n moderator approval. I will send a
copy to the HUNGARY list momentarily, and it can already be retrieved
from HIX's SENDDOC archive (via email to , or from HIX.MIT.EDU
'finger ').
As I'm gearing up for the news.groups debate please try to hold your
comments until the discussion officially opens! You will see that the
renaming/creation question is left open until issuing my second RFD.

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Eva Durant wrote:
> This is a summary forwarded, do not read if you don't think
> the criticism of the US is not relevant to Hungary. As a
> form of economy strongly recommended by the majority of
> this list to follow for other countries - I think is
> important. 

> >[...]
> > This review is from the pages of the "Industrial Worker", newspaper
> > of the Wobblies.  Send $15 for a 1 year sub to:
> > Industrial Worker
> > PO Box 2056
> > Ann Arbor, MI 48106
> > U.S.A.

Worse than a non-Hungarian thread introduced once again into HUNGARY,
it is actually a commercial advertisement.   As such, it doubly does not
belong to HUNGARY, just as a plug for a book by some USAian wunderkid on
how to make a zillion bucks on the stock exchange (just as relevant,
showing  another side of the argument about capitalism) would not belong
here.

In general, I also object to Eva Durant trying to convert HUNGARY into
a general discussion group on the merits of capitalism and general activist
issues when there are enough fora available for that.   Just to balance
this statement, I similarly object to other past cases of converting HUNGARY
into a discussion group of US domestic politics.

George Antony

Below my signature here you find the full copy submitted to initiate the
Usenet newsgroup creation process. For reference, this proposal with some
introductory explanations in Hungarian is also deposited into the HIX
SENDDOC archives (see my previous posting for instructions to retrieve that
from there). Please notice that the guidelines ask that the discussion
preceding the vote required for the creation of a Usenet newsgroup be carried
on news.groups! For the sake of those without netnews I will send
to the list some documents describing how to use email to access.
Everyone interested in further discussion on whether and how to create
s.c.h should enter the discussion on news.groups after the RFD
officially comes out, likely after a couple of days from now.
 Accept my apologies for taking up this much volume of list traffic for
what really belongs to Usenet only. Since the initial debate spilled over
here I felt that followups had to be directed here as well. As you may
have seen, meaningful discussion of the question at hand require
familiarity with Usenet issues, and tend to draw out rather lengthily.

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Newsgroups:
 news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.europe
Subject: RFD: soc.culture.hungarian, renaming soc.culture.magyar
Summary: The Hungarian (Magyar) people & their culture.
Expires:
References:
Sender:
Followup-To:
Distribution:
Organization: Boston College
Keywords: soc.culture.hungarian RFD

                   Formal call for discussion
                   ==========================

Newsgroup      : soc.culture.hungarian
Status         : unmoderated
Distribution   : worldwide
Summary        : The Hungarian (Magyar) people & their culture.
Proponent      : Zoli Fekete >

This is a formal request for discussion on the creation of an
unmoderated newsgroup, soc.culture.hungarian

 This RFD has been posted in accordance with the Guidelines for
Newsgroup Creation. It is being posted to the following relevant
newsgroups:

 news.announce.newgroups, news.groups,
 soc.culture.magyar, soc.culture.europe

 The RFD and CFV may be posted to related mailing lists. Discussion will
take place in news.groups only (as required by the group creation
guidelines). Please post follow-ups to news.groups only.
 The discussion period will last for 3 to 4 weeks from today.

 This is the first call for discussion on the creation of the newsgroup
soc.culture.hungarian. Since there has been some discontent during the
preliminary discussion in the group s.c.magyar as to whether that should
be renamed or a separate new group be created, I leave this option open
till the second RFD.

 Rationale: there is obviously great need for a newsgroup dealing with
the issues outlined below in the chapter, and soc.culture.magyar has been
such. The past four years saw surprisingly small audience with low
traffic for that group, which suggests that many people are unaware of
its existence. In the view of this proposer, it is necessary to create
the newsgroup with an English name conforming to the established Usenet
conventions: soc.culture.hungarian.
 I think it would be preferable for this group to supersede the existing
s.c.magyar rather than to have both. There is, however, some strong
sentiment for keeping the established group as well, so the issue has to
be worked out during this discussion. The decision to be put up for vote
will be included in a finished RFD I plan to post in about ten days.
During this time I continue conducting a straw poll on the renaming -
please email me your unambiguous choice to be included in that tally!

 Suggested charter:

  The proposed newsgroup is intended to provide a general medium for
those interested to express, share, and exchange their views, ideas,
and feelings about Hungary and Hungarian culture. Questions concerning
Hungarians living either in the country or abroad would be discussed.

 Possible discussion issues include aspects of Hungary
   - culture, history, philosophy, ideology, geography;
   - societies, traditions, customs;
   - literature, poetry, art, folklore;
   - languages, books;
   - science, technology;
   - food, cookery;
   - local events, news,    - communities abroad, problems, needs; and
   - other things normally discussed in the "soc.culture" newsgroups.

 The group shall be unmoderated.

 Postings may be in either English or Hungarian, but posters should bear
in mind, regardless of which language they post, that some readers may
not be able to read/translate your postings. While most Hungarian
Usenetters understand also English (maybe not as well), Hungarian
writers are encouraged to use their native tongue when the topic is
likely to concern Hungarians only (such as questions regarding local
communities or things like ethnic cuisine).  It is recommended that
authors of substantially long contributions include a short summary in
the other language, if they can.

===
This RFD complies with Usenet newsgroup creation guidelines set in
"How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup".  Please refer to this document
if you have questions about the process.  The files can be found at
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/creating-newsgroups/.

Dear Jutka,

 To see what this list is about, follow these instructions, as seen in
the message welcoming email subscribers - you can retrieve all the
messages (or only some of them selected based on searching the database):
Contributions sent to this list are  automatically archived. You can get a list
of  the available  archive  files  by sending  an  "INDEX  HUNGARY" command  to
  (or ).  You can  then order  these
files with a "GET HUNGARY LOGxxxx" command, or using LISTSERV's database search
facilities. Send an "INFO DATABASE" command for more information on the latter.

 In general, discussion is about what the list members are talking. If
you'd like to see something discussed then post something about it, tell
the others what you think and someone usually replies if there's any
interest! If you don't like an ongoing thread then you can always ignore it.

 As for what you're getting tired of, you heard it wrong: it has not
been about this "group" (this is actually a list), but a somewhat
out-of-place debate on creating one on Usenet.

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Sandor Lengyel wrote:
> Though I think, this discussion is a storm in a tea pot, and maybe the word
> "hungarian" would be better than "magyar" from the practical point of view,
> I still would vote for the keeping of the word "magyar", since it more
> properly describe what I am.

Which would be all very well if it were your own personal newsgroup.

However, it is a newsgroup for, and about, Hungarians, all of us.
Parochial, you-buggers-had-better-learn-our-proper-name type of attitude
acts against the perhaps most important purpose of the group: to make
Hungarian culture known among non-Hungarians.

For we are either promoting Hungarian culture and accept a compromise in the
name used in English, or we are promoting a self-righteous naming issue
(storm in a tea CUP, actually) and accept that this will NECESSARILY
handicap promoting Hungarian culture through the Usenet.

Sheeesh  [hands thrown up in desperation]

George Antony

While I'd very much like to wind down this debate here and now, I'm
pressed to reiterate a point getting lost amid the sound and fury -
On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, George Antony wrote:
> acts against the perhaps most important purpose of the group: to make
> Hungarian culture known among non-Hungarians.
 *and* to help to connect us Hungarians with each other, too! I must repeat
that there are fellow Hungarians who miss out on the group because of its
non-standard name. They, as well as us lucky ones in the know of the
group already are losing because of the lack of s.c.hungarian.

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
* Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
* form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
* Usenet: welcome to the next level.             (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

On Thu, 2 Mar 1995, Greg Grose wrote:
> The point is that not everybody buys into the idea that sch will
> automatically be better because more people can find it; and that
> there is a certain romantic attachment to the name magyar.
 I'm not selling that idea ;-( - I'm saying that it would be better not
to miss audience because of the bad name; obviously adding more people
wouldn't automatically cause anything nevertheless a choice is better if
aimed at the proper target not a random subset of it (ie. those who
somehow learn of the existence of s.c.m). And I do understand the
romantic attachment, but it ought not be reason to forgo the rational
choice for newsgroup name - the Usenet namespace is not the right medium
to express or spread our love for a word. Especially not if, as your
argument goes, the name were to act as bozo-filter - why not
s.c.ide-ne1zz then, which would be found by an even smaller thus better
selected readership and wouldn't defile "magyar" by relegating it to
such lowly task ;-( ...

> I'll live with either result, but you don't have to ask us to accept
> that this is all cut and dried.
 I'm a certified pessimist so I don't ;-<.

> :  Your suspicion is wrong, or at least a couple of decades
> : premature [concerning the network situation in HU].
>
> Well, there we have our divide, because I for one don't see how scm
> will be improved by a bunch of dumb Americans;  I acknowledge that
> more internationals may find sch faster than scm; I suppose the older
> one gets the less a month or two matters...
 You brandish as red herring those DA's here, that's not the point.
(Besides being interested is prima facia evidence of not being so dumb.)
The net is so immensely huge that if you don't find something right away
where it's supposed to be then you may not find it ever, never. No amount
of advertising, FAQ-posting whatnot could possibly make up completely for
the gap in the namespace in place of s.c.hungarian - on more than a
hundred thousand (that's ten to the power of five) computer systems
worldwide!
> : Are you suggesting that extra propaganda resources should be wasted
> : on trying to make up for the problem generated by the non-conform
> : name?
> Since I don't see a problem, I think the whole issue is a propaganda
> waste.  And as such, I'm dropping the thread.
                         May it rest in peace.          -               Zoli

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
HUNGARIAN ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE     copyright  1990.

1995 Januar

Forgalom

Vallalat neve              Reszveny    Bevezetett   Zaroar        Kapitalizacio
                           neverteke   darabszam    1995.01.31.   Ft
<Agrimpex> Rt.(nev.)       10000       121774       14000         1704836000
<Agrimpex> Rt.(bem.)       10000       11001        13500         148513500
<Aranypok> Rt.             10000       43000        7050          303150000
<Balaton> Fuszert Rt.      10000       120000       6350          762000000
<Bonbon> Hemingway Rt.     1000        170000       1600          272000000
<Csemege> Julius Meinl Rt. 10000       18500        13000         240500000
<Csopak> Rt.(nev.)         1000        801100       700           560770000
<Csopak> Rt.(bem.)         1000        398900       680           271252000
<Danubius> Hotels Rt.      1000        8000000      850           6800000000
<Domus> Rt.                1000        1633000      650           1061450000
<Dunaholding> Rt. (nev.)   10000       101303       39500         4001468500
<Dunaholding> Rt. (bem.)   10000       68697        39500         2713531500
<EGIS> Rt.                 1000        7785715      1825          14208929875
<Elso> M. Sz. Sorgyar Rt   1000        1071000      2000          2142000000
<Fonix> Rt.                1000        165000       1400          231000000
<Fotex> Rt.                100         62328120     183           11406045960
<Garagent>                 1000        303050       2300          697015000
<Garagent> Rt.             1000        65000        2100          136500000
<Global> TH Rt.            1000        3756430      1380          5183873400
<Globus> 2                 1000        229950       1450          333427500
<Globus> Rt.               1000        766527       1420          1088468340
<Goldsun> Rt.              1000        1063970      730           776698100
<Graboplast> Rt.           1000        2282500      1030          2350975000
<Hungagent> Rt.(nev.)      1000        80000        1400          112000000
<Hungagent> Rt.(bem.)      1000        100000       2000          200000000
<Ibusz> Rt.                1000        1320500      900           1188450000
<Inter-Europa> Bank Rt.    10000       217550       10800         2349540000
<KontraxI>rodatechnika Rt. 1000        500000       85            42500000
<KontraxT>elekom Rt.       1000        500000       45            22500000
<Konzum> Ker. es Ip. Rt.   400         2150000      750           1612500000
<Muszi> Rt.                10000       43000        100           4300000
<Nitroil> Rt.              10000       27490        16000         439840000
<Novotrade> Rt.            500         1068572      2250          2404_287000
<Pannonflax> Rt.           1000        447566       395           176788570
<Pannonplast> Rt.          100         3000000      1118          3354000000
<Pharmavit> Rt.            100         1765000      5500          9707500000
<Pick> Szeged Rt.          1000        2656999      5700          15144894300
<Primagaz> Rt.             1000        3200000      1960          6272000000
<Richter> Gedeon Rt.       1000        16894962     1460          24666644520
<Skala-Coop> Rt. S         1000        48163        1680          80913840
<Skala-Coop> Rt. T         1000        3699777      1830          6770591910
<Soproni> Sorgyar Rt.      1000        648000       1950          1263600000
<Styl> Ruhagyar Rt.        1000        1180000      1875          2212500000
<Sztrada> Skala Rt. (nev.) 10000       4150         6600          27390000
<Sztrada> Skala Rt. (bem.) 10000       29250        3000          87750000
<Terraholding> Rt. (nev.)  1000        3600         450           1620000
<Terraholding> Rt. (bem.)  1000        100950       450           45427500
<Zalakeramia> Rt.          1000        1762916      1810          3190877960
<Zwack> Unicum Rt.         1000        2000000      3300          6600000000
Osszesen                                                          145372820275

Analizis

Az ev elso honapjaban a Budapesti Ertektozsde mukodeset a forgalom es az
arfolyamok csokkenese jellemezte, a brokercegek 5.468 kotesben
arfolyamerteken szamolva osszesen 10 milliard forintos forgalmat
bonyolitottak le.  Ez decemberhez kepest visszaesest jelent, de az
kedvezonek mondhato, hogy a reszvenyek a forgalombol valo aranya 30%-on
stabilizalodott. (Mikozben a reszvenyek a tozsden jegyzett ertekpapirok
neverteken szamolt ertekenek csupan 10%-at, a kapitalizacionak pedig
18%-at adjak.) A tozsde evelejetol hivatalossa valo reszvenyindexe - a BUX
- viszont a mult honapban 21%-ot vesztett ertekebol, januar vegen 1159.45
ponton zart.

Megvaltozott a BET ertekpapirkinalati strukturaja is, a honap vegen 122
kulonbozo ertekpapirra - 40 reszvenyre, 25 allamkotvenyre, 33
kincstarjegyre, 3 vallalati kotvenyre, 20 befektetesi alap jegyeire es a
karpotlasi jegy kulonbozo sorozataira - lehetett uzletet kotni, melyek
osszpiaci kapitalizacioja 795 milliard Ft-ot (7.2 milliard US dollart)
tett ki.

A mult honapban a reszvenypiacon 3.2 milliard forintos forgalom mellett
tobbnyire az arfolyamok csokkenese volt megfigyelheto. Tovabbra is
jelentos az automatikus kereskedesbe bevezetett reszvenyek (Danubius,
Globus, Pick, Primagaz, Soproni Sorgyar, Pannonplast, Egis, Global,
Graboplast, Pharmavit, Richter Gedeon) forgalombol valo reszesedese.
Januarban a reszvenypiaci uzletek 68%-at erre a tizenegy automatikus
papirra kotottek, az arfolyamerteken szamolt forgalomban pedig aranyuk 80%
volt.

A 40 BET-en szereplo reszvenytarsasagnal - mas csoportositasi szempontok
eseten is - a forgalomnak egy jelentos koncentralodasa figyelheto meg. A
bevezetesi kategoriak alapjan szetvalasztva a cegeket a magasabb szintu
kovetelmenyeknek megfelelo 14 jegyzett ceg adta az uzletek es a forgalom
haromnegyedet.

A tozsdei reszvenytarsasagok atlagos piaci mutatoi az aresesek
kovetkezteben az alabbiak szerint valtoztak:
 P/E mutato 21.15-rol,17.21-re csokkent,
 P/BV a honap vegen 1.23 volt,
az osztalekhozam viszont 2.35-rol 3.06-ra emelkedett.
A reszvenypiac kapitalizacioja december vegen 145 milliard forintot (1.3
milliard US dollar) tett ki.


Tovabb csokkent a karpotlasi jegyek tozsdei piaca. 463 millio forintos
karpotlasi jegy forgalmat regisztralt a Budapesti Ertektozsde, a havi
zaroar (330 Ft) a nevertekre (1.715 Ft) vetitve mar csak 19%-os
arfolyamnak felelt meg.  (1995. januar elejetol a karpotlasi jegy
nevertekenek novekedese befejezodott, iden a privatizacioban a fentebb
emlitett kamattal novelt erteken szamitjak be a karpotlasi jegyet.)


1995. januar elejetol hivatalossa valt a Budapesti Ertektozsde
reszvenyindexe. A BUX kosaraban szereplo 17 papir (Danubius, Domus,
Dunaholding, EGIS, Martfui Sorgyar, Fotex, Global, Globus, Goldsun,
Graboplast, Inter-Europa Bank, Pannonplast, Pick, Primagaz, Richter
Gedeon, Skala-Coop T, Zwack) a BET reszvenyforgalmanak es
reszvenykapitalizaciojanak egyarant 93%-at adta az ev elso honapjaban.


ORCZAN Zsolt

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