On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 03:37:58 -0700, Tibor Benke > wrote:

>At 1:31 a.m. 7/25/96, Andy Rozsa wrote:
>
>>Heah in Birmingham, the best I can do, Hungarian-food wise, is to
>>pretend that grits can be made into grizgaluska.
>>
>>You lucky Northerners, you.
>
>Once, when I was going to college in Sacramento, I had a friend who was
>from the south.  I helped him move his stuff to his mother's when he was
>leaving for Brazil to be in the Peace Corps.  His mother fed me a dinner
>that was remarkably like our "vadasmarha" (beef venison style) including
>the "gomboc" (balls made of soaked bread cubes and eggs and boiled.  When I
>commented on it, she said it was a normal Georgian dish -- she was from
>there.
>
>Tibor Benke

You didn't know it, but were witness to an experience of monumental
proportions. With the explicit exception of wonderful barbecued ribs
and some decent fried catfish, most foods around here would be either
deep-fried or boiled to a remarkable consistency. I mean, it all has
the same texture, the same taste, only the color varies.

OTOH, it took me years to try a hamburger, so, clearly, I am no
epicurean genius.

BTW, all kidding aside, the food-fare in "Fried Green Tomatoes" is a
fair representation of Southern country cooking. Chopping up
wife-batterers is optional, of course.

Rozsa Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

On 25 Jul 1996 23:29:36 GMT,  (heringer) wrote:

>>Seriously, any recommendations for a restaurant in Toronto that serves
>>a decent fata'nye'ros?
>>
> =============================================================
>>
>>
>>
>Bloor St. between Bathurst and Spadina is "little Hungary".  The two
>good, very reasonable restaurants are the Country Style and right across
>it the Continental.  They are not licensed.  For more elegant dining,
>including music, there is the Csardas.  There are quite a few others in
>downtown.  I have seen the Budapest Diner advertised (778 St.Clair W.),
>but never ate there.
>
>Agnes
>

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I will sample every one of them. I
already lost 5 lbs. in preparation for my trip to the North.

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 09:14:37 EDT, Hugh Agnew >
wrote:

>Dear fellow-listmembers,
>
>I would like to speak up for the much-maligned and discriminated-against
>tripe!  (Not the kind that often gets published on the Internet;-), but
>the kind that goes into "drstkova polevka")!

..... but when my Czech friends
>make it, it is well worth summoning the courage to try to _eat_ it.
>
>Tripe's a trip!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Hugh Agnew


Such panache, such style! A true paladin of the International
Gastronomical Heroes' Society.

My prayers (and a bottle of Alka-Seltzer) go with you.

:-)

Rozsa Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

Dear fellow-listmembers,

Help!  Do any of you remember Istvan Szabo's "Szerelmesfilm"?  My class on
history and cinema just watched it, and we decided that one of the most
frustrating jobs in 1970s Hungary must have been to work as a subtitler
for Hungarian films--the proportion of white subtitles on white backgrounds
in this film was exceedingly high, rivalling the all-time leader, the
wonderful Czech fable "Report on the Party and the Guests" directed by
Jan Nemec.  But one could live with that, except that at the very end,
when whatever denouement happens is taking place, the film shifts down
a long line of people composing letters at a postoffice desk, while the
exposure slides from balanced colour to increasingly over and over exposed
until it's practically bleached-out entirely, and suddenly the face we see
is Kata's and she's speaking directly into the camera (meanwhile her speech
is being translated by these invisible subtitles) like a letter she has
sent or is sending to Jancsi, and none of it, literally none of it, was
legible as subtitles for the final 2.5 minutes of the film.  So we don't
really know if anything important was in it, or not.

Have any of you any memories of what that ending was about?

Thanks!

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

On Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:46:19 -0400, Joe Szalai
> wrote:

>"Chicken Paprika" and "Goulash"(that spelling sucks, big time!)
no kidding

>Many of the contributors to this list indicated that the foods at Sunday
>dinner are fairly typical.  What about other foods we eat?  What foods were,
>or are, common in your kitchen?  Perhaps we can get a list going to help
>non-Hungarians familiarize themselves with *real* Hungarian food.
>
>I'll start by listing a few of the foods we ate often.
>
>To:lto:tt ka'poszta          Cabbage rolls
>Rakott krumpli               Layered potatoes
>Tu'ro's te'szta              Noodles with cottage cheese
>Krumplis te'szta             Noodles with potatoes
>Po:rko:lt                    Porkolt
>
>Now it's your turn.
>
>Joe Szalai

My mom had the ability to walk into the larder (is spa'jc a Hungarian
word?), look around, say "let's see what we have here" and make a meal
out of whatever was available. Of course, in Stalinist Romania
(Nagyvarad/Oradea), usually there wasn't a lot to be had.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----------------
Some foods that would sound disgusting to an American, but which I had
with great relish:
---------------------------
Fried calf-brain
Sauteed chicken blood w/onions and potatoes
Beef bone-marrow on toast
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------

Non-disgusting sounding:
-----------------------------------
Layered cabbage (a la Kolozsvar)
(Incredibly good) Gooseberry soup (cold) -- egres leves
Boiled beef with potatoes and horseradish
Tejes Puliszka (sorry, have no idea what this would me --
     corn-flour/polenta w/ milk?)
Spinach w/fried egg (singular), or fried bread (there was a name for
     this, but memory fades)
Bean soup
Cumin soup
Brilliantly clear chicken soup
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----------------
Notice the almost total absence of meat. Now THIS was a poor man's
menu.

P.S. Is csalamade a Transylvanian food?

P.S. II.  Since I was already 20 when I arrived here, I had developed
some eating habits which have stayed with me all these decades: 10) I
always eat bread with everything with meat or  fat; and 2) I always
eat something sour -- like kovaszos ugorka (or uborka, if you wish)
with anything "meaty." It turns out, according to some researchers,
that acidic foods contribute to a  more complete metabolism of fats.
This may explain the longevities of those oft-heralded Hungarian
shepherds. Either that, or they just reflect some unusual
record-keeping techniques. Take your pick.

All in good jest, of course.




> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

Am I missing something? The only hatred I see is that spewed from the
mouth of the detractors of Nemenyi.
Have I been so easily fooled? The constant attacks seem to go one way?
People, like Stowe, appear to be filled with hatred. I wonder why? I am
new to this discussion, but the last few weeks have revealed a repeating
pattern to me.
One or two individuals post messages in quiet, reasonable sounding tones,
while some others post vitriol in shrill hate filled messages.
Calling people names is childish, Stowe. It represents the same mentality
that all of us decry as being indicative of what we despise in
anti-semites, anti-blacks, anti-Christians. It is the labelling of people
without their consent. It is the willful distortion of truth. It is the
burning of books kind of mentality.
If NPA is, in fact an anti-semite, then I need to be corrected. But, he
says that he is not.
He does not have to prove that he is NOT from Mars, or NOT this or NOT
that.
One never needs to prove anything that does NOT exist.
The burden of proof is on Stowe and his ilk to prove that something does
exist.
That is basic logic.
Simply calling someone a Nazi or Stalinist or Zionist or Martian does not
make them so. Screaming it louder and louder is not acceptable as proof.
I'd be interested in seeing some hard proof.
Let me know if I'm wrong.

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq

>*Assuming* that all you are saying is true, the only fairness question
>could be this: how come that in the events between NPA and his employer,
>the allegedly threatened-for action - the firing which as you're saying
>didn't happen after all - by the former based on improper behavior of the
>latter is being blamed on some "rats" who might have brought into
>attention his publically known postings from the account he'd been told
>not to use so?

The company did not just threatened - for action. Getting rid of an employee
can take many different shapes and forms.

Those people inside ANL. who were/are using the firm's computers still having
their jobs. They were not reported by those RATs. Anyone who is interested of
such instances, can run a listings of articles emanated from ANL. by other
ANL. employees. There are some! So should ANL. fire every employees, who used
the firm's computer for private purposes? And of course without any warning, or
previous written notice, should the firm take action? Furthermore, should all
the US. firms fire their employees for the same reason?

Would Mr. Fekete sponsor such  actions against his friend, Gabor Fencsik, with
whom he shares the same alpha server at (fekete)-(gabor) @c2.org remailer
company, from where all the hate mails came from? There were some talks about
conspiracies. Is it not strange how coincidence works? You know Mr. Fekete what
I meant by that?

NPA.

At 10:56 AM 7/25/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>>At 08:06 PM 7/24/96 -0700, Jozsi Hill wrote, quoting me:
>
>>>I'll admit it the day you admit that 1956 was a "szabadsa'gharc". ;-)
>>>
>>>         Oh, I admit. It was an "icipici szabadsagharc," and hardly anyone
>>> calls it that.
>>>
>>>         Eva Balogh
>
>
>>I don't know about you, but I'd very happy to get a buck from everyone
>>that does!!
>>>Jozsi
>
>Joe Szalai adds:
>
>>You won't get rich that way, Jozsi.  Nobody that I know calls 1956 a
>>"szabadsagharc'.  Oh sure, there are some people on this list and s.c.m who
>>call it that, but I don't know them.
>
>        I am sure that people are sick and tired of this "szabadsagharc"
>business, and even those who don't know a word of Hungarian are totally
>familiar with the word by now. I promise this is my last word on the subject.
>
>        Let me repeat: "szabadsagharc" doesn't mean "freedom fight," in the
>traditional sense, in English. "Szabadsagharc" means "war of independence,"
>and the word in Hungarian usage is pretty well reserved to the events of
>1848-49. Calling 1848-49 a "szabadsagharc" makes eminent sense. Hungary was
>not an independent country then but was part of the Habsburg Empire. The
>Hungarians waged a war of independence against the Austrians and against the
>Habsburg king. There was a large army under the supervision of a Hungarian
>government which waged a protracted war against the Austrians. This was a
>real war of independence.
>
>        In 1956 the situation was different. Nominally, Hungary was an
>independent country (of course, we know that the Hungarian government
>couldn't move a finger without Soviet approval). But there was an
>internationally accepted entity called Hungary which was represented in the
>United Nations. It had its ambassadors. It had its own foreign minister.
>Thus calling 1956 "szabadsagharc," in the Hungarian sense of the word is
>really inappropriate. Hungary wanted to get out of a military alliance,
>Hungary wanted the Russian troops whose presence was sanctioned by the
>Warsaw Pact removed but strictly speaking we cannot speak of a war of
>independence.
>
>        The reason, especially in this country, for using the word
>"szabadsagharc" in the sense of "freedom fight" is the influence of the
>English usage on the Hungarian word. Such things can easily happen. A few
>months ago someone on the FORUM said of me: "And even Eva Balogh used the
>`anglicizmus' `low opinion,' which is clearly the mirror translation of the
>English" and not correct Hungarian usage. And indeed, although I am very
>careful when writing in Hungarian, mirror translations of this sort can
>easily creep into one's speech or writing.
>
>        In the English sense of the word "freedom fight," of course, the
>Revolution of 1956 was a fight for freedom.
>
>        Eva Balogh


The Parliament of Hungaryenacted the following declaration on 2 May 1990:

This freely elected Parliament regards as its urgent task to codify the
historical significance of the October Revolution of 1956 and its struggle
for freedom. This illustrious chapter of modern Hungarian history can only
be compared to the 1848-49 Revolution and war of independence...

(1) The memory of the 1956 Revolution and its struggle for freedom is
herewith codified.
(2) October 23, the day of the outbreak of the Revolution of 1956 and the
beginning of the fight for freedom, and also the day of the proclamation of
the Hungarian Republic in 1989, shall henceforth be a national holiday.

It is obvious from the text of the law that the Hungarian lawmakers of the
post-communist era considered 1956 both a revolution (violent overthrow of
the regime) and a war of independence, that is SZABADSAGHARC. For obvious
political consideration hte anti-soviet nature of the events
is not mentioned by the MP's.


Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

any one out there can help me ?
mike

http://www.complast.com
http://www.autoroute.net/~complex
E-Mail 
E-Mail 

At 11:25 AM 7/26/96 -0400, Peter I. Hidas  wrote:

>It is obvious from the text of the law that the Hungarian lawmakers of the
>post-communist era considered 1956 both a revolution (violent overthrow of
>the regime) and a war of independence, that is SZABADSAGHARC. For obvious
>political consideration hte anti-soviet nature of the events
>is not mentioned by the MP's.

Since politicians are incapable of hyperbole and mere mortals are incapable
of naming things we'll just have to go with the above.  NOT!

Joe Szalai

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, JFerengi wrote:

> Am I missing something?
 Quite apparently, yes ;-<.

> The only hatred I see is that spewed from the
> mouth of the detractors of Nemenyi.
 So any-one not taking the spoonfed story granted is labeled "detractor"?

> Have I been so easily fooled?
 I dunno...
> The constant attacks seem to go one way?
 ... or maybe I do ;-( - the side perpetuating this is in the other
direction than where you're looking here.

> One or two individuals post messages in quiet, reasonable sounding tones,
 like calling perceived enemies RATs and the like
> while some others post vitriol in shrill hate filled messages.
 like pointing out gaping holes in unsupported conjectures
> Calling people names is childish, Stowe. [...] It is the labelling of people
> without their consent. It is the willful distortion of truth. It is the
> burning of books kind of mentality.
 Oh, the thick irony of this "free speech" argument aimed at condemning
those who may have voiced the 'wrong' opinion on NPA...

> If NPA is, in fact an anti-semite, then I need to be corrected. But, he
> says that he is not.
 That's really terrific news ;-)! He, just like all contemporary
anti-semites (along with most others racists as well), says he's not that
at all; that should be enough for all of us to rest easy now, I guess?
 His dragging into discussions, supposedly concerning Hungarian issues,
factoids like how many Russian communist leaders were real Russians and
how many were mere Jews, is just a way of giving "reasonable sounding
tones" or else the audience is at fault hearing otherwise, right?
 Regardless, the question of how justified readers' perception of the
posts may be is secondary to the main issue - which is: would the employer
be within its rights to act upon the activity bringing disrepute to
anl.gov with the misuse of its facilities? Or could it only have been the
result of some third-party pressure, as claimed?

> One never needs to prove anything that does NOT exist.
> The burden of proof is on [those making assertions] to prove that
> something does exist.
> That is basic logic.

 Well, I'm glad that finally we are on the same page. Let me remind you
that the subject matter here is the 'Nemenyi files', that is the assertion
that he had been improperly fired, or forced to leave (or whatever is the
version right now) BECAUSE someone(s) "snooped" and ratted on him - and
not because he was violating a basic provision of the contract he signed,
doing so in a manner particularly embarassing to his company.

> I'd be interested in seeing some hard proof.
 Yep, so would we. Even seeing some soft evidence would be immensely more
meaningful than hearing variations on the theme 'I have a tape and my
friends heard about it too'...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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In article >,  (JFerengi)
writes:

>Am I missing something? The only hatred I see is that spewed from the
>mouth of the detractors of Nemenyi.
>Have I been so easily fooled? The constant attacks seem to go one way?
>People, like Stowe, appear to be filled with hatred. I wonder why? I am
>new to this discussion, but the last few weeks have revealed a repeating
>pattern to me.
>One or two individuals post messages in quiet, reasonable sounding tones,
>while some others post vitriol in shrill hate filled messages.
>Calling people names is childish, Stowe. It represents the same mentality
>that all of us decry as being indicative of what we despise in
>anti-semites, anti-blacks, anti-Christians. It is the labelling of people
>without their consent. It is the willful distortion of truth. It is the
>burning of books kind of mentality.
>If NPA is, in fact an anti-semite, then I need to be corrected. But, he
>says that he is not.
>He does not have to prove that he is NOT from Mars, or NOT this or NOT
>that.
>One never needs to prove anything that does NOT exist.
>The burden of proof is on Stowe and his ilk to prove that something does
>exist.

This will be brief, since I try to keep my contact with cowards who can't
post under their real names down to a minimum. Mr. Nemenyi has made a
number of assertions about the circumstances surrounding his current lack
of employment, circumstances he says incriminate several members of this
list for actively conspiring to bring about that lack of employment. Those
assertions have been amplified by Barna, who claims to have "evidence"
backing them up. Yet, he cannot seem to post that evidence, despite my
constant requests that he do so. And Mr. Nemenyi, while mentioning several
times a "pending case" has, so far, refused to post details telling us
which court district his case is pending in.

The only reason I can see for you to start squeaking up now is that you
can tell that the Nemenyi/Bihari side of the debate isn't fairing too
well. We can keep the ad hominem up all you want to. You know it doesn't
faze me and I can dish it out with gusto. But I don't think the three of
you should get a McCarthyite free ride through this thread, shouting
allegations against people which you cannot subsequently back up. Post
your evidence or pipe down. It's just that simple.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

In article >, "Barna L.
Blowhardi" > writes:

>
>PS.  No need to get all touchy about the Lyle thing.;-)  It was a
>compliment: after all, you've been doing a maaaaavelous job on his hair.
>Why did you drop his name off your signature file in such a haste??
>
>PS2.  Letterman is no good.  And you are watching too much TV.  It shows.
>
>

If you had paid attention to my posts, you'd know that my sig changes
about every seven to ten days. Lyle had his turn in the sun. Now it's
someone else's. This crush you have on him is interesting, however. I
can't stay awake long enough to watch Letterman, but from what I can tell
he's still doing the same sophomoric crap he was when I was in college a
decade and a half ago -- probably much like you.

I'm now going to ask you for what I believe is the fourth time -- please
post the evidence to back up your assertions. If you don't have it, then
admit it. You can't tell the truth; you can't flame worth a damn. You are
getting boring, Barna.
Sam Stowe

"C'mon, honey, think about
it -- a jet engine, a riding lawn
mower...Someone was bound
to put 'em together eventually..."
-- Tim "The Toolman" Taylor

I'm sorry, I haven't been able to answer earlier
to Soltesz Istvan:
>
> Zoli you miss my point..
>
> The basic problem in HUngary is that the Hungarians have not yet figured out
> how to jump from communistic planned economies (and lives) to more of a
> free market economics. That is, the people expect the benefits of
> communism (and welfare) without the understanding of free market economics.
> The problem is academic, in that, if one is starving....who the heck
> cares about economics!!!.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. But don't forget,
that in Hungary an average family with 2 children can not
survive with one income. They would experience a factual
starvation. It's easy in the U.S., a one-income family is
well enough here. But in Hungary 2 working parents usually
have less income, than half of the income, an American
one-income family earns.

If you understand this difference between the levels of
incomes in the 2 countries, then it's easier understand
what is wrong about killing welfare in Hungary.

Now, it is the end of the month. In Hungary many families
can not go to the grocery shop this time around. They simply
don't have the money to do the shopping. (And don't forget:
no credit for the average Hungarian in Hungary!! No Master
Card, no Visa, no American Express. etc.!) They would go to
the grocery shop after the pay-day, around 2nd or 3rd of
August only. What is between: well, in some cases it is not
an overstatement to call it 'starvation'.

Take care,                                       Sz. Zoli

Sorry, my note is not to Soltesz Istvan, but to Soltesz Peter.

Eva Balogh had it:
>
> At 07:20 PM 7/24/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
>
> >My attitude toward the U.S. and its history is respect.
> >It is a big country, where 96% of the population is a
> >believer of God.
>
>         Where did you get this figure? It sounds inordinately high to me.
I believe that! It sounds too high to you, because it
does not fit into your political philosophy. I would be
surprised if it would be otherwise.

> >6 of each 7 voters are Chritians.
>
>         In what sense? Again, this sounds very high to me.
Again, it is not surprising at all. Just check out the
last report on the topic by the Pew Research Center.

> As far as I know less than 50 percent of the
> population goes to church.
That's a different question. And it is also extraordinarily
high compared to Hungary.

> I find American nationalism of this
> sort just as appalling as I find Hungarian nationalism appalling.
Good. So Hungarian nationalism must not be so bad, either.
Afterall, it would be too crazy to characterize NBC's
mainstream nationalism as 'radical rightwing chauvinism'.

                                              Sz. Zoli

Seems to me that there are only three or four questions worth pursuing.
 #1 Is Nemenyi willfully posting untruths?

 #2 Has his right of free expression been violated by some "Secret Police"
type      activity  on the part of those who dislike what he said?

 #3 Was there malicious intent to hurt by those who made inquiries at his
place of       employment?

 #4 Should we, as Americans,  consider this an acceptable means of attack
upon       those with whom we disagree?

Here is my answer to Gyuri Antony:

> > > Zoltan Szekely wrote:
> > The only problem is, that although during the MDF-govt
> > the necessary conditions for starting a growth were
> > developed
> We appear to differ very strongly on that.  As far as I know, by the
> end of the MDF-led coalition's rule the economy was getting nowhere.
I borrowed my arguments from the experts of the FIDESz
Polgari Part. Your critizism should be directed toward
them. I believe to Bela Kadar and Viktor Orban in this
question, because they put their arguments not as much
on ideological bases, as the experts of the govt.
parties. Their conclusion: by the end of the MDF-led
coalition's rule the economy was getting into favorable
conditions for growth.

> However, in a market economy, such growth only leads to a deterioration
> of economic imbalance, throttling itself when the non-government sector
> withdraws from the economy, as it does when a government is going off
> the rails.
Is it a threatening now? I know that when Antall got
the power in 1990, a lot of international investments
withdrew from Hungary. (It would be another goood ques-
tion to ask why.)

> By 1994 all economic reformers were chewed up an spat out by the
> terminal economic petrification of the Antall/Boross course
Now, it is a typical ideological argumentation!

> You obviously hate the new governing coalition, with a passion that
> is at the detriment of your own judgement.
Not at all. Both the MSzP and the SzDSz have minority
platforms in their parties, which have different ideas
about society and economy. Too bad, that these platforms
are out of influence at the moment.

> Do you seriously claim that
> new coalition stopped a growth that was about to take off (...)?
It's not me, who claims that. It is the opinion of the
Polgari Szovetseg in Hungary.

> Instead, according to you, they stopped growth dead, for mere ideological
> reasons.  They may be very low in your estimation, but no politician is
> going to commit political suicide by unnecessarily impoverishing its
> own electorate.
Wrong! In the beginning of their 4 years they could do
anything. Voters forgot it! It would be political suicide
to repeat the Bokros-style politics NOW. Now we are
getting closer and closer to 98, and this question is
becoming more and more relevant.

> Besides, you must come up with more substantial evidence than transparent
> efforts by the opposition to wash its hands of the economic mess it took
> Hungary into by rewriting history.
The Hungarian opposition has no business with ideology
at all. They don't use ideological arguments in their
election programs, because they don't need such. It is
surely true for the parties of the Polgari Szovetseg.
You may crush them is this forum and call them stupid
(as Eva Balogh does), but it does not matter too much.

They don't need ideology, because the facts of the
region speak for them. Any country around Hungary had
a couple of good years recently, except our own country.

> Slovakia is following the unique Czech model of restructuring with
> some reforms forward, some delayed, with a strong government intervention
> maintained.
So are they well ahead of Hungary in the reforms? Why
don't you say yes or not?

> If there is sufficient growth, there is less to no need to cut,
> as additional government revenue will make up for the deficiency
> that otherwise can only be found by cutting the budget.
If there is sufficient growth, then you can rationalize
the cuts. If no growth, you cut everything you reach.
Is it any better?!

> What is this "68 has completely failed" business ?  The fact that
> Hungary was in a better position for economic transformation in 1989
> than any other ex-communist country was due to the process started in
> 1968 and continued, albeit with reversals, up to 1989.
You're right. I have to say it more clearly, that I am
speaking about failure in political sense. (And that is
the point, when we may be forced to accept the relevance of
politics in economy.) The ecomomic reforms in 68 lacked the
accompanying social reforms. The transforming economy would
have required big changes in the political system. Maybe a
multi-party system would have been appropriate.

This lack of social renewal took its revenge on the economy
in the 72-73 events. The fundamentalist communists, led by
Biszku Bela and the Russian influence played a clear role
in the reversal of reforms. Fock Jeno, Nyers Rezso and others
of the leaders of 68 disappeared (Aczel Gyorgy managed to
survive somehow in the cultural front). If a massive social
reform supports the ideas of 68, then this reversal would
not have been so easy. That's about the failures of 68.

> By all means, the reforms were half-hearted and were not allowed
> to progress as they should have by the institutional rigidities of
> the communist system.
That's right! I agree with this.

> > Now it is the time, that you should come out, you economic/
> > financial wizzards, and explain the good reason to the
> > money lenders (and not the wrong reasons of doing nothing
> > about the debt to the country). That's what is generally
> > understood about loyality to your home country, and not
> > the opposite.
> So, no, the lenders should not give debt forgiveness because of having
> lent to the nasty communists, but in the end they should, and it is
> economists like me who say that they will do no such thing should talk
> them into it unless we want to be branded disloyal to our country.
No, you don't have to help your country in this. It is
your choice. Nevertheless, for many people, belonging to
different nations, the very interest of the home country is
highly respected.

> > One more question left here. What did you mean by this?
> >> The FORUM has been taken over by a noisy group of
> >> political extremists (Nazis and their fellow travellers) [etc.]
> Not that it has anything to do with the issue on hand, but no.  I am usually
> trying to choose my words carefully, and if I had wanted to say that I would
> have done so.
I quoted this from you in order to show up, how easy it is
to be caught in pure ideological argumentation and name
calling even for some respectable economists.
                                                 Sz. Zoli

In article >,
 says...
>
>Dear Group:
>
>Several months ago, Martha began a thread on Hungarian Humour.  This thread
>revolved into discussion on reading material regarding Hungary.  One, Mr.
>Szaszvari strongly recommended a book entitled "Under the Frog's Arse", but
>could not recall the author.  Our very own Sam, came through with the author
>being Tibor Fischer, and the book was further recommended by our very own
Joe.
>

Sorry you have been had, though you haven't really been had,
if I may use a bit of humor . . . The English title is indeed
"Under the Frog," the the Hungarian saying from which the
title derives is "a beka segge alatt," which is also the title
under which the book appeared in Hungarian translation. By the
way, Tibor Fischer has published another novel now, "The Thought
Gang." I don't know whether this one has appeared in Hungarian
yet.

Steven C. Scheer

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 26 Jul 1996, JFerengi wrote:
> Seems to me that there are only three or four questions worth pursuing.
>  #1 Is Nemenyi willfully posting untruths?
 To me this does not seem worth pursuing; he clearly posts things that
are mostly unsupported (and some unprovable), partly untrue - but whether
he himself believes his rationalizations could not be objectively discussed.

>  #2 Has his right of free expression been violated by some "Secret Police"
> type      activity  on the part of those who dislike what he said?

 His right of expression has not been violated, as should be obvious from
seeing him able to post thru interaccess. (It was remarkable that early in
the campaign the absurd claim of him somehow gotten altogether banished
from the Internet surfaced - but it may have been someone other than NPA
who came up with that statement.)
 There's nothing "Secret Police" type in knowing that institutions often
disallow misusing their computers this way, nor in recognizing what
anl.gov stands for (and of course his posts were out in plain public view
for all to see, no 'spying' needed). If you bought his line that this
required some detective work, then there's your answer to #1.
 What happened is that his assumed right to expressing himself by using
anl.gov got revoked; but then free press has always belonged to those who
owned one - and particularly these days when getting your own 'press' (ie.
personal Internet account) is as trivial as accepting one of those AOL
trial disks, it's bizarre to demand that employers provide one when they
don't want to.

>  #3 Was there malicious intent to hurt by those who made inquiries at his
> place of       employment?
 Presumably there was by some, assuming things like false accusation of
handling porn did indeed happen. But then the truthfulness of such claims
would have been trivial to check by the admins - false information could
not hurt him, and the truth could only hurt insofar as it was against him
already (as a consequence of his breaking a contract he signed).
 Regardless of what third parties might have said, actions (if any taken)
by the employer should be based on what they see, not merely what they are
told; they could find and see for themselves the inappropriate use in any
case without outside help, so it's only NPA himself who could've prevented
facing the consequences - by not violating the policy in the first place.

>  #4 Should we, as Americans,  consider this an acceptable means of attack
> upon       those with whom we disagree?
 Based on everything we've heard so far there was no attack. In any case,
either you have freedom of speech or you don't. If you want to have it,
how and why are you proposing to block those opinions you don't like -
such as perhaps a possible suggestion that it may be improper to publish
from a government-sponsored site posts which are considered rabid racist
remarks by some readers?

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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At 08:47 PM 7/25/96 -0400, Bob Hosh wrote:

>I have a surfeit of "rokagomba" or "chanterelles" in my fridge, we are having 
a
>bountiful season due to the abundant rain this summer.

I assume this is the same what we also called "sa'rga gomba" (yellow
mushrooms). They used to be sold on the Kolozsvar market by gypsy women. The
preparation method was somewhat like the gomba porkolt, but it was finished
with a few eggs, and called tojasos gomba.

A few more favorites come to mind (although nothing beats libazsir): hagymas
krumpli - potatoes with onions (you can sing while eating it: Nincsen
penzem, se dohanyom, Hagymas krumplit vacsorazom); rantott velo" (fried
brains); csusztatott palacsinta(???); vineta salata (??); alma's pite(?).

Gabor D. Farkas

At 09:55 AM 7/23/96 -0500, Nemenyi  wrote:

>>I thought we were talking about Farrakhan and not about the
>>other participants.
>
>Whatever has happened with collective responsibility? :-)

Mr. Nemenyi is confusing me with somebody. I never advocated "collective
responsibility" for anything. But so what's new? Nemenyi throws in a remark,
as usually, unfounded.

Gabor D. Farkas

Hopefully, no one is offended by the "as Americans" phrase. Only later did
it hit me that I was making an assumption that all posters are Americans.
I don't claim to know everything about people's motivations and certainly
I do not know everything that was posted here in the past. But I can make
judgements about what I see happening today.
If I see a couple toughs beating up an old man on the street. Call me a
fool for jumping to conclusions; my course of action is clear. Maybe the
old man was a nasty old man. But, I, just arriving on the scene, see an
injustice in the making.
During the last few weeks, I have read hate speech by one side only. Why
is that, Mr. or Ms. Stowe, or whoever you are? Help me understand why you
are saying the things you are saying. Is there substance? Or is it just
reflexive snapping?
Not meaning to imply that Nemenyi is an old man. I don't even know if he's
a male or female. Did I get here too late? Is he really the great Satan?
Is he cleverly disguising his evil intent to conquer the world?
I chose a while ago to not use my real name since I realized that many
crazies could easily get hold of postings for their own twisted purposes.
Was I wrong to be cautious? Our world is a violent one. Many people are
intolerant and full of unreasoning hate. Am I a coward for this
precaution?
Should we judge a posting because of its content or because of the name
attributed to it?
Do we have any idea what a person's real name is? I could sign my postings
with the name, Madonna or Dennis Rodman. Is this a forum for the free
exchange of ideas or some childish room of name callers?

"Rat" is not considered name calling in this instance  since
it is a common expression to describe someone who is "telling, or
snitching or giving false information" about another. To "rat somebody
out" does not mean you are actually calling someone a rat. But I'm sure
you knew that.

Especially humorous to be thinskinned about "rat" since the word, "Nazi"
is the most ugly of all names that can be used in our modern world.

Have we learned nothing from a war that saw millions of casualties?

Intolerance, by any other name, is still intolerance.

PEACE AT YOU, DUDES and DUDETTES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At 09:51 AM 7/23/96 -0500, Nemenyi wrote: (in response to George Szaszvari)

>The only reason why
>Farrakhan's movement is labeled lately fascist is, because he has great
>differences with the Jewish community. Calling Farrakhan is an antisemite
>is counterproductive, because he and his people took a religion so typical
>of semites.

Here is (for Cecilia and Ferengi) an example of the way Nemenyi's
antisemitism shows. Nemeny is an avid reader of everything related to Jews
(at least that's my conclusion, since most of his quotes are on this topic).
Therefore, to call Farrakhan's statements as having "great differences with
the Jewish community" is equivalent to calling Funar an "ideological
opponent of Hungarians" (at least some Hungarian connection).

An someone saying that a Moslem cannot be an antisemite because Islam
originated among arabs, a semite people,  is the most ridiculous statement.
Antisemites, like Nemenyi use it often, although it is a fact that  the
word antisemitism is used to mean anti-Jewish.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 12:26 PM 7/25/96 -0500, Nemenyi  wrote:
> Just now I received documents from "The National Archives
>of the United States" about the American Expeditionary Forces in Siberia
>in June 1919.

Nemeny still has contacts in the gov., the National Archives are sending him
his own extracts.

>The document is a string of letters sent by Captain Montgomery
>Schuyler from Omsk on June 9th. to the American War Department. In this letter
>word by word I read the followings: "These hopes were frustrated by the
>gradual gains in power of the more irresponsible and socialistic elements of
>the population guided by the Jews and other anti-russian races. A table made
>in April 1918 by Robert Wilton, the correspondent of the London Times in
>Russia, shows that at that time there were 384 "commissars" including 2
>negroes,
>13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter
>number 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of
>the Imperial Government. "

So what? Who was Captain Montgomery Schuyler? If he calls Jews anti-russian
race, does that mean it is true? What selection of Archives material is
Nemenyi quoting from? The one compiled by The Arian Nation?

>This document were declassified on the 27th of 1953. Anybody can obtain such
>documents now.

Nemenyi again implies one of his conspiracy theories. Some Jews kept this
until now from public scrutiny, obviously. What's with that date, anyway,
the 27th of 1953?

>See my stand is different. I research history, not like Eva Balogh, who copies
>all the orthodox views of politically correct explanations of history.

Yes, Nemenyi does research, very, very selectively.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 10:52 PM 7/25/96 -0400, JFerengi wrote:

>If NPA is, in fact an anti-semite, then I need to be corrected. But, he
>says that he is not.

Hereby I correct you. He says he is not, but his postings contradict him. If
you need hard proof, go into the Forum archive and read all his postings
(and he had plenty, a large portion of them posted between 10Am and 3PM from
his anl.gov Internet account).

Gabor D. Farkas

At 09:20 AM 7/26/96 -0500, Nemenyi wrote:

>Those people inside ANL. who were/are using the firm's computers still having
>their jobs. They were not reported by those RATs. Anyone who is interested of
>such instances, can run a listings of articles emanated from ANL. by other
>ANL. employees. There are some! So should ANL. fire every employees, who used
>the firm's computer for private purposes? And of course without any warning, o
r
>previous written notice, should the firm take action?

Nemeny was not fired, he resigned (if we were to believe him). If someone is
so sure of the righteousness of his cause, then he does not resign but
fight. Why didn't Nemenyi fight?

> Furthermore, should all
>the US. firms fire their employees for the same reason?

No. Except if company policies clearly prohibit it. I also think Nemenyi
generalizes too easily (as usually, see Jews). The main problem was that he
was working for a government organization, financed by our tax money. He was
stealing from all of us (US taxpayers). This wasn't about all US firms. A
private company can decide to do whatever it wishes, a government entity has
less latitude.

Gabor D. Farkas

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:


>>One or two individuals post messages in quiet, reasonable sounding tones,

>like calling perceived enemies RATs and the like

I explained this  before: That is a name for those who are reporting
others for their gain, but not brave enough to do it under their own
names.

>His dragging into discussions, supposedly concerning Hungarian issues,
>factoids like how many Russian communist leaders were real Russians and
>how many were mere Jews, is just a way of giving "reasonable sounding
>tones" or else the audience is at fault hearing otherwise, right?

Communism unfortunately is a Hungarian issue! And I can show numerous
American history books, and archive documents where the religion or
race is mentioned. I tend to quote from original documents and use
books of the subject. If the historians, and politicians, soldiers
mentioned race and religion, than I quote them without self censoring
myself. Self censoring was a trade mark in Communism, but I believed
I left Communism behind. Did I ?

>Regardless, the question of how justified readers' perception of the
>posts may be is secondary to the main issue - which is: would the employer
>be within its rights to act upon the activity bringing disrepute to
>anl.gov with the misuse of its facilities? Or could it only have been the
>result of some third-party pressure, as claimed?

ANL. claimed the third - party pressure. That was DOE.

>Well, I'm glad that finally we are on the same page. Let me remind you
>that the subject matter here is the 'Nemenyi files', that is the assertion
>that he had been improperly fired, or forced to leave (or whatever is the
>version right now) BECAUSE someone(s) "snooped" and ratted on him - and
>not because he was violating a basic provision of the contract he signed,
>doing so in a manner particularly embarassing to his company.

Let me remind Mr. Fekete, that I never brought up my case on this platform.
So I don't have to prove anything if I don't want to.
But because Mr. Fekete is trying to distort the case, I repeat once more:

1; The firm had a policy of non-personal usage of company's computers.
   But the APS. department (where I worked) had a policy  of  personal
   usage of company's computers, for exploring Internet. The memo is
   available!
2; Nobody was fired for personal usage of company's computer, and nobody
   was fired without prior written warning in such case either.
3; Without two letters sent to ANL. & DOE. the company would have cared
   less about my computer usage, because my work was executed well, as my
   recommendation memo suggested.
4; Eva Balogh's snooping came latter, so it had no effect on my dismissal.
5: About the dismissal; The Union announced in the beginnings of the case,
   that the case can not be won! (?)
6: The only thing Mr. Fekete is right about is, the embarrassing factor of
   ANL.  HR. announced, that my articles embarrassed ANL. and DOE. did not
   like it. After the case was closed, they denied of translating my articles.
   It is strange to learn, that Hungarian became the second language of this
   country. :-)

>>I'd be interested in seeing some hard proof.

>Yep, so would we. Even seeing some soft evidence would be immensely more
>meaningful than hearing variations on the theme 'I have a tape and my
>friends heard about it too'...

You will Mr. Fekete,.. you will... If you and your ilk would let this case
rest a little, until I can release my evidence, there would not be so
much noise for nothing. I told you before, but I tell you once more. I
have a pending case, and you are not my friend. So wait for your turn.
In due time, you get what you deserve. I mean the proofs. ;-)

Meanwhile think of the strange coincidence of sharing the same remailer
with "Karesz".

NPA.

Cecilia L. Fa`bos-Becker wrote:
        "Contemporary American conspiracy theorists tend to downplay the
secret society angle.  European conspiracy theorists pay secret societies
much more attention.  But the archetype is there.  The CIA and the
Trilateralists both fit the model.  They have been secret societies forever,
it seems, and they still exist today.  Maybe they are nothing but
coincidentally similar groups that sprout from time to time in response to
the pressures of each particular historical time and place.  Or perhaps the
"the technology of power" has been "occult" since early civilization, when
humans first began to control nature and those most important creatures of
nature--other humans."

Yes! Could happen, that there is nothing "conspiracy" in the Nemenyi
case. Maybe it is just the professional activity of the roumanian
intelligent service. Formerly Bela Liptak successfully organized FAX
and E-mail campaigns for the rights of the hungarian minority in
Roumania. From that point the roumanian secret service ought to do
something with the hungarian discussion groups. A deflamation could
be a good case. May could happen that they wrote a letter to the DOE
and that ANL in the name of a well known opponent of Mr. Nemenyi. As
Mr Nemenyi managed to get the name of the letter writer, he became
convinced that his opponent and the friends of them playing unfair
cards. Now the various hungarian discussion groups are filled with
accusations and counter accusations. The relations of the different
contributor groups became antagonistic. The "danger" of joint actions
diminished.

dr. Gyorgy Bathori