Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 158
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-12-08
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: George Lazar and Gyorgy Lazar (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: RFE/RL ? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: RFE/RL ? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
4 Hungarian lessons (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Dogs in Budapest (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: From Ko3ba1nya to Bosnia (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: From Ko3ba1nya to Bosnia (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: RFE/RL ? (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: B-H once again (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Anne Applebaum's essay in Foreign Affairs (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
14 First impressions of this group... (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
18 Washington, D.C. - Hungarian folkdance club (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
19 It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Dogs in Budapest (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: budapesti lakas/apartment in budapest (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
23 Horn and NATO--A correction (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: George Lazar and Gyorgy Lazar (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Looking for Hungarian Gou... (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
28 NATO and the worth of the West's word (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: PS to G(o)ul[y]as(h) (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: RFE/RL ? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
31 Life-Expectancy in HUngary (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Pictures of the Hungarian Shield and the City of Bu (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
33 Ro1zsadomb (mind)  89 sor     (cikkei)
34 Book by Pacepa (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
35 Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
36 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
37 Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
38 Re: Pictures of the Hungarian Shield and the City of Bu (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
39 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
40 Re: Book by Pacepa (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
41 Re: Ro1zsadomb (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: George Lazar and Gyorgy Lazar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  writes:
>Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 16:51:08 -0500
>From: 
>Subject: George Lazar and Gyorgy Lazar

>Why is Andras Pellionisz harping on George Lazar's Anglicized first name and
>why is he emphasizing that he has the same surname as the former prime
>minister? I have an idea about the latter but as for George versus Gyo2rgy is
>concerned, Andras Pellionisz should try to live with the name Gyo2rgy and its
>pronunciation in an English-speaking country. My young cousin who is here for
>a year only is called George here because this is the only sensible thing to
>do. Otherwise, the poor guy would'nt recognize his own name and by insisting
>on Gyo2rgy he would put undue burden on the population of the host country.

>Eva Balogh

Hmm...what burden? I have heard of stupid stereotypic talk that there is
a Land of the Free and the Home of the Stupid but never quite believed
it. Also heard that sometimes it is not simple to pronounce given names
but this is absolutely no excuse. Just to add isult to injury, I loath those
who change their names in the (usually mistaken) belief that they will be
better received in their new or temporary environment. And to make this
message even more outrageous, I tell you that I have never encountered
anything like that in N.Z. (which does not make this place paradise but is a
nice touch, anyway).
So Vilag Gyorgyei, unite!
Regards
Gabor
+ - Re: RFE/RL ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I wouldn't listen to any (secret?) security services. They need
malicious rumours to stay in business. What do you need them for
Joe Pannon?


>
> Constantin:
>
> > We didn't pay attention to this article, as the whole idea seemed to stupid
 to
> > deserve our consideration; how could you even think it was true?
>
> Right.  This whole thing was obviously cooked up by the Hungarian secret
> services (AVO, as Dima likes to call it).  When it comes to whom to
> believe, the Austrian or Romanian security service, the decision is
> not too difficult.
>
> Joe
+ - Re: RFE/RL ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> Also, I don't believe that the chief of the Austrian Counterintelligence
> Service would make a totally unfounded statement.
>
>
Why not? The present chief of the British one (verrry respectable)
got the job by scoring good points, by fabricating false evidence.
(see Weekend Guardian 26th November for evidence).

+ - Hungarian lessons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greetings to all UK members of this list.

I am looking for a native speaker of Hungarian (Magyar)
who  would be willing to provide lessons to improve
my small Hungarian vocabulary.

I live in Sheffield and work in Birmingham.

Please reply by e-mail at T.MALTBY @bham.ac.uk  .

Many thanks!

             ====================================
           Dr Tony MALTBY
        Dept. of Social Policy & Social Work
        University of Birmingham
        Edgbaston
        BIRMINGHAM
        B15 2TT  UK
     Tel: (44) (0)121 414 5730   Fax: (44) (0)121 414 5726
          ========================================
+ - Re: Dogs in Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To sketch the picture in the countryside in those bad old days
of totalitarian rules; "ebado" was paid, and for the second dog it
was rather pricey, considering that second dog was not a luxury
in a village. But once or twice a year your dog was inocculated
free against rabies and distemper if I remember correctly.
(the vet came to the village for this one date notified - we
even had a "kisbiro" to tell us about important events such as this
- no drums I'm afraid). We had a pedigree vizsla given to us as it's
grown too big and daft for a Budapest high-rise flat. It's taken our
large fenced backyard/garden as part of the house and wouldn't
do it's doos, we were a fine specticle taking the dog for walks -
not yet seen before and since there I'd think. Our other dog was
an old tacsko who was found in spouse's workshop on a Sunday.
Must have been abandoned by some city-folk, called it Szundi, as
it liked to sleep a lot. And yes it was much more vicious than that
enormous but beautiful vizsla. 

> innoculate their dogs in order to avoid the tax. As a result, the dog
> population of Budapest quadrupled in the last few years. The last laws on dog
> keeping were written in the 1970s but apparently little attention is paid to
> these laws. Among other things, there if of course the normal leash law which
> is widely ignored. Another law restricts the number of dogs to one per
> apartment. Apparently, that is ignored as well. Third, and this is the most
> interesting one, certain breeds must wear muzzles while walked. German
> shepherds, Dobermans, Kuvaszok, Komondorok, and a number of terriers are
> included. However, Rottweilers or pit bulls are not. This is a lot of
> nonsense because there are many very nice Dobermans and Rottweilers, while
> there can be even nasty Basset Hounds! So, if your dog looks like a German
> shepherd you better be prepared! Last but not least, just in New York, owners
> are supposed to pick up after their dogs. Apparently few do and again the
> police enforcement is minimal.
>
> Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Are there any data comparing white poor with black poor in
the USA? How do these figures fit with Kobanya?



>
> Greg points out racial differences in this country as one of the sources of
> divergent figures in life expectancy. Of course, Greg is quite right. There
> are many reason for high infantile mortality rate among Black babies but it
> is certainly a fact of life in the United States which surely has a
> substantial impact on the American statistics.
>
> Eva Balogh
+ - Re: From Ko3ba1nya to Bosnia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Healthy food is EXPENSIVE! Such as fresh fruit + veg, lean meat!!
Needs time to be bought and prepared! Must be something to do
with it, surely! 

>
> Yet, I am still outraged! It says something about Hungarian society which is
> not very pretty. Also, I may have not been terribly attentive but I didn't
> discern the same outrage in your voice. You just simply state that people on
> the Ro1zsadomb are "living better."
>
> Something must be done about this and the very first thing should be the
> education of the public. However, I don't see any sign of it in the two
> papers I am getting. I don't quite know what Judit Cseha1k is doing (and
> after all she is a physician), but I don't think that they spend much energy
> on educating the public on medical matters. In fact, the second half of the
> article from which I originally quoted the figures for districts # I and XIX
> gave up on educating the adult population of today. The man interviewed
> simply stated that the only hope is in the youth because the adult
> population's lifestyle cannot be changed!! I don't believe that this is so as
> the American antismoking campaign amply demonstrated.
>
+ - Re: From Ko3ba1nya to Bosnia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"The man interviewed simply stated that the only hope is in the
youth because the adult population's lifestyle cannot be changed!! I
don't believe that this is so as the American antismoking campaign amply
demonstrated."

Well, this is a very interesting statement! Because American adults have
changed their habits, Hungarian adults will be able to do the same thing,
Eva implies. If this is true, it would mean that:
1. economically, Americans and Hungarians are in the same position,
   because, apparently, they both can afford to change their
   lifestyle, whenever they want to.
2. culturally, Americans and Hungarians are basically the same, at
   least as far as their lifestyles are concerned.

During my recent stay in Hungary, I had the opportunity to compare
both groups, and the result of this was that I became very cautious to
link Americans and Hungarians in the way that Eva did. I don't think
solutions to American problems will be of much help in Hungarian
society. For instance, in the case of medical education to adults, who
should take the initiative for such an endeavour? The government? I
doubt whether the government is able to raise it's expenditures even
further without national and international repercussions, which, in the
long run, would worsen Hungary's economic situation. Foreign medical
initiatives would neither be succesful nor appreciated by the Hungarians, I
think, as many of them consider the west to be already petty enough.
Private funding isn't very effective either; it would be difficult to
control where the money is going, not to mention the lack of
financial resources already present (which is, I think, Hungary's
biggest problem). When all this is considered, the idea of
aiming medical education at children principally, doesn't seem so
unreasonable to me. It's less expensive, because it can be added to
the curriculum at school, and it's effect also reaches the
parents. Furthermore, considering Hungary's current situation, it's
probably the best affordable solution at this point of time.

                                                       David.
+ - Re: RFE/RL ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant writes:

> I wouldn't listen to any (secret?) security services. They need
> malicious rumours to stay in business. What do you need them for
> Joe Pannon?

Brilliant logic.  Security services are capable of lying, thus
incapable of assasination.

--Greg
+ - Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant writes:

> Are there any data comparing white poor with black poor in
> the USA?

Tons, I'm sure.  At hand all I've got is from Frum, who bases this
on Nicholas Eberstadt's work:

        ...Marriage or nonmarriage--not race, not class, not age,
        and not the presence or absence of prenatal programs--best
        predicts a woman's chance of giving birth to a healthy child.
        An unmarried white college graduate was less likely to bear
        a healthy child than a married black high school dropout.


> How do these figures fit with Kobanya?

Good question.

--Greg
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > "Misha Cornes (GD
1995)" > writes:
>Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 18:44:45 -0500
>From: "Misha Cornes (GD 1995)" >
>Subject: Re: It is the national debt, stupid!

>Forgive me if I misunderstand you, Pellio, but if you imply in your
>message that there is any relationship between the Communist government
>that ruled Hungary and the American left, you are sorely mistaken.
>The American liberals that you refer to operate within a
>market-orietned ideology and obey the rules of a democratic system.
>Hungarian Communists, reformers included, operated from the framework
>of Communist ideology- ideals of full employment, intra-Comecon
>self-sufficiency, etc., and, most fundamentally, a desire to develop a
>communist, egalitarian society.  None of these goals are part of the
>political agenda of the American left.  In fact, the American "left" is
>extraordinarily moderate when compared to left-wing socialist parties in
>Europe.

If the two are even comparable. I would be classified as a right-wing
Republican (and I make no bones about it), and it seems from what I
understand that the American left wingers want to "destroy the freedom of
the individual" (if you want to put it that way, which I do) to "save" the
group freedom. The Communist left-wing just goes ahead and destroys freedom
period. IMHO

>The second part of your argument, the suggestion that there is an analogy
>to be drawn between the American left's culpability for the US national
>debt and the Communist culpability for the Hungarian debt is also flawed.
>First, American liberals are not the ones to held responsible for the
>American debt.  The real fault lies in the steady growth of entitlements
>in the American budget.  And if I want to be partisan, I would point to
>the enormous Reagan-Bush increases in defense spending before I point to
>anything else.

Yeah, although a Republican, I doubt I would vote for Reagan if he were to
run again (which he can't) (I wasn't old enough to vote when he was running).

>Moreover, the American debt, while troubling, is clearly
>not an inhibitor to the American economy in the way that Eastern European
>debts have been.

True. You'll know depression hits when the cement ducks disappear out of
people's yards.

All that was merely my irrelevant opinion, so I'll stop now.

>--

>...........................................................................
>::Misha Cornes:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>::47 Pearl Street, No.2::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
>::New Haven,CT 06511::::::::::::::::::::::::::::tel:(203):865-8011:::::::::
>:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

I would, as a safety precaution, warn against putting your real address and
telephone # in your sig. Some nerds that don't like your opinion might start
prank calls or something.


-----------------------------
STOP SCIENTIFIC ANIMAL ABUSE!
    Experiment on humans.
-----------------------------
   
-----------------------------
+ - Re: B-H once again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > JELIKO
> writes:
>Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:07:58 PST
>From: JELIKO >
>Subject: Re: B-H once again

>Charles writes in relation to B-H:

>> The West Europeans of today sound a lot like a bunch of Sam Hoares and
>>Neville Chamberlains to me too.

>I disagree. Hitler could have looked threatening to that crew, but if
>France and the UK are afraid of Serbia today....maybe they should
>stick to Argentina and Ruwanda for demonstarting their "guts". A one ton
>conventional HX on Pale/hour would end the bragaddio in a day. One
>does not negotiate with thugs.
>Peace, Jeliko.

like one guy said:
"Nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark."

:-)

-----------------------------
STOP SCIENTIFIC ANIMAL ABUSE!
    Experiment on humans.
-----------------------------
   
-----------------------------
+ - Re: Anne Applebaum's essay in Foreign Affairs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>                        Thomas Breed
>                        

>                "Ted' ma zena ma hlad, tak musim jit."

Out of curiosity, what's you quote at the bottom mean? And what language is
it in?

Not a linguist,
A NAgy

-----------------------------
STOP SCIENTIFIC ANIMAL ABUSE!
    Experiment on humans.
-----------------------------
   
-----------------------------
+ - First impressions of this group... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just wanted to say "Szia" from a new reader in Cedarville, Ohio, USA.

I am really impressed with this group. No flames (or if there are, they're
kept below 500 Fahrenheit), and a lot of good discussion and tolerance. And,
not many of the posts are in Hungarian, so I can understand more. I'm going
to keep this group.

Keep up the interesting posts, and I'll keep adding my useless ones.
:-)
iStVAn

> ----------------------------------------
I can tolerate anything but intolerance.
> ----------------------------------------
        
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>--Pardon me, but I think that you should add to your reading list.  You
>are correct in saying that American liberals accept the market system,
>but there is a very vocal American left which, in fact, espouses
>an almost 1920s style of socialism.  Some of these people are in
>history and political science, but the bulk of them are in colleges
>of education.

Which means they influence all our younguns to become communists and take
over America and destroy all our freedom!!! Quick! Get McCarthy back up
here!! We'll apologize to him, just rid us of these wicked folks!
:-)


--------------------------------
Truth will never lose:
Truth is absolute:
Truth is our Lord Jesus Christ.
        -Malani Bilyeu
--------------------------------
    
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  7-DEC-1994 12:52:46

You should add to your reading list.  You
>>are correct in saying that American liberals accept the market system
>>but there is a very vocal American left which, in fact, espouse
>>an almost 1920s style of socialism.

If they are so vocal, then why would anyone have to do research in order to
find out about them?

  Some of these people are in
>> history and political science, but the bulk of them are in colleges
>of education.

Is there a college that DOESN'T involve education in America?

>
Which means they influence all our younguns to become communists and take
>over America and destroy all our freedom!!! Quick! Get McCarthy back up
>here!! We'll apologize to him, just rid us of these wicked folks!
>:-)

He's not around, but his buddies are!  Just look at the American
Congress!:)

Speaking on the new congress, does anyone think this might result in a less
placating attitude toward Russia?  Would the US push ahead, and actively
seek East Central European Nato membership?
Or will the congress fall into thold prejudices?  I've noticed an almost
Pavlovian reaction among politicians and even ordinary citizens.  You say
"East Europe" and they began foaming at the mouth and yelling "Bosnia,
Bosnia, argh."  :)  Seriously, though, will they take a hard line to
insure the saftey of EC (that's East Central, European Community) Europe?
Or will they turn isolationist, build a huge army that won't ever get used,
and take a hard line against the rest of the globe?

-------------------
>Truth will never lose:
>Truth is absolute:
>Truth is our Lord Jesus Christ.
>        -Malani Bilyeu
>--------------------------------
>    

Oh yeah, someone asked what my last signature meant.  It's Czech, and it
means "my wife is hungry so I have to go."
                Which I do


                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >>You should add to your reading list.  You
> >>are correct in saying that American liberals accept the market system
> >>but there is a very vocal American left which, in fact, espouse
> >>an almost 1920s style of socialism.
>
> If they are so vocal, then why would anyone have to do research in order to
> find out about them?

Not a bad question.


> >> Some of these people are in
> >> history and political science, but the bulk of them are in colleges
> >> of education.
>
> Is there a college that DOESN'T involve education in America?

I trust he meant "dept. of education", where teachers are trained.


> Speaking on the new congress, does anyone think this might result in a less
> placating attitude toward Russia?  Would the US push ahead, and actively
> seek East Central European Nato membership?

One can only hope.

--Greg
+ - Washington, D.C. - Hungarian folkdance club (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

DATE   Saturday, Dec. 10.

TIME   7:30pm till 10:30pm

PLACE  Starting Point Dance Studio (College Park, MD)
       From I495 take Route 1 South toward College Park.
       Pass the buildings of the UM complex, turn left onto Calvert Rd.
       The studio is the first building on your right, behind Clean and
       Lean Laundromat/fitness center

Dance-house starts promptly at 7:30 with a 45-minute basic-level teaching
session. Beginners welcome. Request dancing to live music follows. The
basic steps of most of the request dances will be demonstrated in a
special teaching circle while each dance is going on.
+ - It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Why does not Hungary TRY debt-reduction "Poland style"?

This is the real question. It is not that Hungary could not get a
reduction for some of the fake reasons enlisted here by those who
apparently bought the totally misleading Goebbels-type "big lie"
propaganda of Hungarian media.

Hungary never requested debt reduction. (No surprise did not get
any)

To be more precise, the Antall-government timidly attempted some
forays into this direction, but they were brutally trampled upon (just
as Antall's initiative to consider himself to be the spiritual prime
minister of the entire Hungarian nation, living at home or abroad,
was a "dangerous idea" and was viciously attacked and bludgeoned
to death in its infancy).  In one attempt a high-ranking government-
envoy was about to board the plane to the IMF to ask for debt-
rescheduling when his trip was angrily called off by Suranyi (at the
time the chairman of Hungarian Reserve Bank). With the National
Debt anointed to be an untouchable "Sacred Cow", the Antall-
government gave in (another fatal mistake).

Here comes the proof.

On Sept. 14, 1993 (I believe that was the day, but can look it up) in
San Francisco I face-to-face negotiated with Pal Tar (Ambassador of
Hungary to USA at the time, a well-reputed international banker
himself) and, with USA partners, tendered to him a debt-reduction
scheme drafted up by Hungarian emigres.  No, it was not a radical
plan to refuse paying back another penny!  On the contrary, it was a
very gentle transaction by which four hundred million dollars could
be shaved from the debt.

Pal Tar behaved as a good diplomat ought to. Did not say "look,
Andras, why don't you understand that we are under categorical
orders not to touch the debt-issue".  Instead, he delivered the exact
same message by answering an obviously stupid nonsense: "four
hundred million dollars is a very tiny amount, not worth trying".  Of
course, we both knew damn well that four hundred million dollars is
a whole lot more than the donation-amount, by which some Western
financiers with roots from Hungary "gently influence" the fate of this
unfortunate country. But we did not talk about that, either. I
commented upon the chilly winds in San Francisco, he asked if I
wanted another cup of tea, and with profound sadness in our eyes
we parted ways.

Those who don't have first-hand proofs for "political tabu"-s, just
examine the "big lie", i.e. that Hungary is much disadvantaged
compared to Poland since we are indebted to a huge array of private
banks while Poland's debt was controlled by a handful of foreign
government institutions. This is a glaringly false and intentionally
misleading argument, fabricated for naive consumption of those who
know nothing about such issues.  First of all, if "benevolent" foreign
governments would want to "bail out" Hungary for political reasons,
nothing is simpler for their central financial institutions than simply
"buy up" the debt scattered to a huge array of small private lenders.

Second, and much more important, the exact opposite of the
concocted false argument is true: Hungary is much better off with
her debt scattered to myriads to tiny lenders, since their "negotiation
power" is diluted, while Hungary is in the relatively strong
negotiation position of a sovereign country.  If Hungary would
"negotiate" with the "handful" central banks of Japan, Germany and
the USA I would refuse the job of the negotiator! Dwarfs don't
"negotiate" with giants. The proper term is "begging".  If, however, a
private speculator hangs on to a note on Hungarian debt for the
grand total of DM 200 or USD100 and reads in a rainy morning in the
newspaper that "Hungary declared a moratorium on her debt-
payment for 5 years, and subsequently will limit debt-servicing to
10% of the GROWTH of its GNP" what can the small speculator do to
Hungary?  Nothing.  He will grumble, sell very quickly his notes at
huge discount (good chance for those Central Banks if they want to
buy up political leverage on Hungary on the cheap). Then the small
private speculator will write off his losses (this would not be the only
one), probably deciding that investing in floods, earthquakes or
communism is not a very clever idea.

But who said it was?
+ - Re: Dogs in Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva:  Thank a lot for the information.  I was surprised at how "rengeteg"
dogs are in Budapest.  When I was there this summer, every time I saw a
dog it literally made my cry because I missed mine so much.  So she gets
to come along this time.  I hope I find somewhere to live so I can go.
I'll let you guys know.  Thanks for your help!    -Jennifer
p.s. I feel like I know you because I read your posts all the time!
+ - Re: budapesti lakas/apartment in budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe:  I learned Hungarian at Indiana University, through
self-instruction, and at Debrecen both last winter and last summer.  I
was not fortunate enough to learn it from my Hungarian grandparents, but
now I do converse with them in Hungarian and it is quite rewarding!  I'll
let you guys know if I make it over there in January.  I am keeping my
fingers crossed.   -Jennifer
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)



> Why does not Hungary TRY debt-reduction "Poland style"?

[rest of interesting post deleted]

OK, so _cui bono_?

1. who in Hungary benefits from a policy of "no attempts at
   debt reduction"?

2. and how?  (If the answer to this isn't clear from the
              answer to #1)


--Greg
+ - Horn and NATO--A correction (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I feel that I have to correct my earlier assessment of Horn's statements
concerning NATO and Russia. Originally I was relying on the Radio Free Europe
news summary but today I received the Hungarian Foreign Ministry's Newsletter
in which I found the following. Talking about an interview with Horn on
Polish TV, the news summary states that

[Horn was] asked about Russian statements
related to the aspiration of the Visegrad countries for NATO admission,
Horn said, "We intend to convince Moscow that Russia's security will not
be jeopardized by the NATO membership of either Hungary or any other
state in the region. An alarm bell still seems to start ringing in some
Russian politicians' heads as soon as they hear about NATO.

        "NATO has not attacked anyone and does not pursue an aggressive
policy ... It has the right to make a sovereign decision on the extension of
the organization.

        "I cannot understand Russian politicians, why they are trying to
limit
our sovereignty. In Hungary's case, it is a national decision, Budapest will
decide itself if it wishes to join any international organization.

        "This is our internal affair... Russia is one of the great powers of
th
e
world, playing a serious international role and its position has a weight on
many issues, but all this cannot allow Moscow to hinder the Visegrad
countries from admission to NATO."


If this report is accurate it seems that Horn was quite emphatic about
Hungary's adherence to NATO being Hungary's "internal affair."  Sorry about
my haste.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Some time ago, I heard that Hungary didn't want to renegotiate
the debt. since it's credit rating would be affected.  Is that
a valid issue?  If so, it would seem to be shortsighted, since
debt are paid in the long term, while credit rating cane change
for the better or worse over just a few years.

Paul
+ - Re: George Lazar and Gyorgy Lazar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:
>> as for George versus Gyo2rgy is
>>concerned, ... try to live with the name Gyo2rgy and its
>>pronunciation in an English-speaking country. My young cousin who is here for
>>a year only is called George here because this is the only sensible thing to
>>do. Otherwise, the poor guy would'nt recognize his own name and by insisting
>>on Gyo2rgy he would put undue burden on the population of the host country.

To which Gabor [Who?] opined:
>Hmm...what burden? I have heard of stupid stereotypic talk that there is
>a Land of the Free and the Home of the Stupid but never quite believed
>it. Also heard that sometimes it is not simple to pronounce given names
>but this is absolutely no excuse. Just to add isult to injury, I loath those
>who change their names in the (usually mistaken) belief that they will be
>better received in their new or temporary environment. And to make this
>message even more outrageous, I tell you that I have never encountered
>anything like that in N.Z. (which does not make this place paradise but is a
>nice touch, anyway).

Well, if you would climb down that soapbox for a few seconds.

About the burden: you obviously haven't noticed people around you making an
honest and totally futile effort to get their tongues around Hungarian words.
It is especially so for names, as there is some potential loss of face is
involved in getting them wrong.  I used to try to educate people about the
proper pronunciation of Gyo~rgy, but: (1) the 'gy' sound is unpronounceable
to all English speakers I so far encountered, (2) the "o~" sound is not
native in English, needing much work, and (3) unless you are dealing with
a Scot, the "r" will never be the same.  Even if someone got the individual
sounds right after 10-15 minutes of hard work, their close vicinity means
that the total effect will always be pathetic.  It will always come out
"ghiooghii", which tends to hurt some Hungarian ears (and in my case with a
family name almost Anthony, "Mr Ghiooghii", causing some real complications).

To longer someone tries, the more frustrating it will become for both them
and the Gyo~rgy.  In the end, one of us will have to call quits, but it is
obvious that the project was a failure.  While the other party is initially
very positively disposed towards the Gyo~rgy (all this effort to get one word
right), the failed first interaction weighs rather heavily on possible
subsequent cooperation.  Now, you may not be aware of such finer points of
human psychology, or feel the need to make allowances, but others are and do.

As for the making of excuses is concerned, forget it.  No one owes you any
excuses, neither is it your business to hold expatriate Hungarians to the
purist path in keeping their names and loathe them for failing to do so.  If
your pleasure is insulting individuals and nations just for the heck of it,
I can recommend alt.flame on the USENET.

Otherwise, a good day to you too.

George Antony
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> and I can't believe that paying U.S. citizens--or legal braceros--
>a fair wage for the work now performed by illegals would make that
>much difference in the first place.  We don't use illegals to do

I agree.  Since the illegal alien laborers are used only for the harvest,
they only work for a few weeks at each farm.  The planting and fertilizing
is done by machine, with no illegals involved.  Since they only account
for the expense of harvesting, and not planting and fertilizing, harvest
workers cannot account for a majority of the cost of production, and
therefore, increasing their wages would have a minor affect on the
market costs (all this is stated with an understanding of the high
cost of fertilizing, and for that matter, transporting food to market).

Paul
+ - Re: Looking for Hungarian Gou... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Alexander Berendi ) wrote:
>: recepies, I don't eat most of them anymore.  I am into this low cholesterol
>: thing that promises for you to leave long enough to get Alzheimer's disease
>: or whatever will render a person unable to use the toilet paper.  I have not
>: had a real egg or a spoonfool of heavy cream or a slice of szalonna (bacon)
>: for at least 5 years.

Well, then you haven't been living for at least 5 years!

Szegeny az emberek akik nem eszik a jo gulyast!


Paul
+ - NATO and the worth of the West's word (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In the discussion on the reliability or otherwise of the West to deliver
on its treaty obligations some important historical facts were not mentioned.

Britain and France had a treaty obligation before WWII to assist Poland.
Following the German invasion, they declared war on Germany, but did
nothing else, waiting for Hitler to start hostilities first.  In response
to the Soviet invasion of Poland a couple of weeks after the German one,
Britain and France did nothing.

I recall also that the signatories of the Munich Dictate guaranteed
Czechoslovakia's borders in the form approved at the conference (Eva Balogh
could confirm or refute this).  Still, there was no action against Germany
after the invasion of the leftover.

Hence, I would view with much scepticism any defence guarantees, within
or without NATO, given to Hungary by Western powers.  On NATO, I can only
do what the other participants of debate have done: reiterate the earlier
position.  I believe that Hungary will not be accepted into NATO until she
has no need for it, i.e., until relations with all neighbouring countries
are perfect.  The only qualifier I put on this is that in the case of
Russia turning really nasty and menacing Western Europe, including the
reabsoption of the Ukraine into the Empire, Hungary may be drafted in as
a country of frontline defence.  However, the West will continue trying
to appease Russia, and Hungary may sooner be reabsorbed into the
Russian Empire than accepted into NATO.

In all, I still consider waiting for NATO to solve the insecurity in Central
Europe a Cargo Cult and the probabilities of the West standing up for
Hungary and of tinned beans and bully beef falling from the sky in Papua
New Guinea to be roughly the same.  I see the Finlandization of Central
Europe as inevitable (to an extent determined by the economic and political
developments in Russia and the diplomatic skills of Central Europe as a
cohesive bloc), with the active connivance of Western Europe.  Even if the
US tried to dissent, she is/will be outvoted in all forums.

Now, if I could borrow some other discussants' rose-coloured specs ;-).

George Antony
+ - Re: PS to G(o)ul[y]as(h) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Robert Hetzron wrote:

>I have to add a few things to the Gulyas recipes published in Hungary:
>...
>I am strongly anti-tomato and strongly pro-bell pepper.  A pinch marjoram

That's Racism!!  We do not welcome any anti-tomato people on this list!

Paul
+ - Re: RFE/RL ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anyone here read Romanian?  I found some stuff on the Romanian Usenet list
,
dealing with Transylvania, but it's in Romanian.  There may be some mention of
the Romanian intelligence service plan to assassinate some key Hungarian
(Transylvanian) political activists.

Paul
+ - Life-Expectancy in HUngary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

a while ago it was asserted that hungary's population had a low life
expectancy
and this was brought into connection with the poor quality of
medical service there.

i asked for figures on liofe expectancy in hunagry and comparative
figures
for other european countries.

i have not seen any, so if this is due to the posting not reaching
this site,
would someone kindly re-post them or send them to me via e-mail.

otherwise, could one of the people discussing these figures kindly
post them or send them to me.

d.a.
+ - Re: Pictures of the Hungarian Shield and the City of Bu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What do addresses that look like this refer to:
        http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary

I've seen htis type of thing often, but don't konw what to do with it.

Paul
+ - Ro1zsadomb (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think a full copy of the last HUNGARY digest escaped from my mailer.
Since it has only quoted lines the LISTSERV might be smart enough to reject
it, but if you received a 400+ line monster I apologize for the
inconvenience. [I asked the HIX supervisor to remove it from the digest, so
if you are reading that version chances are you won't see it there.]

I owe an answer to Greg: I can't quote the exact wording, because I haven't
seen it, but the way I heard Walesa had pretty much the same reaction as
E1va Balogh, namely that it is unwise and inappropriate for Horn to
negotiate with the Russians about this matter. As for the Danzig/Gdansk main
post office, I think it was part of some special arrangements for the Free
State of Danzig that was created under the Leauge of Nations between the two
wars, and when the nazis gained the upper hand in the city (which at the
time was populated mostly by Germans) one of the first things they did was a
paramilitary attack on the Post Office, which was up to that point under
Polish governance. Maybe this gave rise to the appeasers' slogan "We won't
fight for Danzig" which of course today runs as "We won't fight for Bihac".

> Felado : Eva S. Balogh
> Yet, I am still outraged! It says something about Hungarian society which is
> not very pretty. Also, I may have not been terribly attentive but I didn't
> discern the same outrage in your voice. You just simply state that people on
> the Ro1zsadomb are "living better."
Being a ro1zsadombi gyerek, I think it would be highly inappropriate to shed
crocodile tears over the matter.  In fact I would like to go a step further
and maintain that a well-functioning society will reward people
differentially and that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the rich
living in more desirable places.  One can be upset about the rewards going
to the undeserving, such as a communist party elite, but it is best to
separate being upset about this from a general feeling of unease about there
being rich and poor -- I share the former but not the latter. Now for the
obligatory disclaimer: my parents weren't/aren't particularly rich,
certainly not by Belgian (or even Ro1zsadomb) standards. I never used the
Ku1tvo2lgyi Ko1rha1z (though I was entitled after my father's been elected
to the Hungarian Academy of Sciences) and my smoking habit probably goes a
long way toward pulling down my life expectancy to the general Syrian level.
If there is any reason for outrage, it is the fact that Syrian conditions
obtain in Ko3ba1nya, not that Belgian conditions obtain on Ro1zsadomb.

> population's lifestyle cannot be changed!! I don't believe that this is so as
> the American antismoking campaign amply demonstrated.
There are some of us die-hard (or is that die-early:-( smokers even in
California. No, it's not so easy to change the habits of those no longer
in school, and I suspect that Hungarians are more stubborn than most...

> As for NATO: Well, Yeltsin is mighty upset about the whole NATO question. See
> today's *New York Times*! Talking about "cold peace" instead of "cold war,"
> etc. The adherence of the Visegrad countries to NATO will not be an easy
> task. I don't think that little Horn of little Hungary will easily change
> Yeltsin's mind.
Maybe not. But the mere fact that he doesn't pretend that Yeltsin's opinion
can be ignored will establish a certain amount of goodwill.

> given Russia's aversion to an enlarged NATO, I don't think that Hungary's
> assurances (the kind Horn was talking about) are going to calm their nerves.
> The whole NATO question is really between the two former superpowers--the
> solution must be found at that level.
In the final analysis, yes. But to the extent that Hungary has a choice of
angering vs. mollifying Russia, and all this costs is a few ours of Gyula
Horn's precious time, negotiations, even if they don't particularly impact
the decision, are a good idea.

> assessing the same situation differently. Andra1s thinks that negotiating
> separately is a good idea; I don't think so. It is obviously just question of
> tactics since we both agree that tying Hungary to the West is important.
And, to lend support to Zoli's position, Gyula Horn actually said so, quite
explicitely, a couple of days ago. The man is slippery like an eel. (Not
necessarily a bad thing for a politician.)

> I agree when it comes to the Munka1spa1rt es a MIE1P but I am surprised that
> you include the MDF because, if I recall properly, the Antall-Boross
> governments were very, very eager to join the European Union and NATO. In
> fact, shortly before the elections, they made sure that they apply for
> membership in EU before they have to relinquish their positions. In fact,
> they received no little flack from the media on the issue. Why the hurry,
> members of the media asked.
I said *old* MDF slogans referring to a time when MDF's populist wing was
still very much in evidence. Antall himself was never a populist, he was
always on the "labanc" side of what La1szlo1 Lengyel called the
"kuruc/labanc" division of MDF, and the same goes for Boross. To his credit,
Antall eventually got rid of Csurka, but populist thinking was highly
influential (though seldom decisive) in the MDF up to that point.

> As for such slogans as "we are alone", "the third road," and "neither Moscow
> nor Washington," are unfortunate legacies of Hungarian populism of the 1930s.
Indeed. Even good ideas can tire out and become bad ones, but ideas that
were bad to start with will never be good.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Book by Pacepa (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From:         Constantin Donea >
>Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure de Lyon, France
>
>We didn't pay attention to this article, as the whole idea seemed to stupid to
>deserve our consideration; how could you even think it was true?
>
>It's my turn to be surprised.
>
>Constantin


A book by I. M. Pacepa, the former chief of the DIE (the Romanian
equivalent of the CIA) who defected to the West and wrote a fascinating
portrait of some of his former organization's activities certainly lends
plausibility to the Austrian allegations. The book is:

          Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, Red Horizons, Regnery Gateway,
          Washington, DC, 1987. (A paperback edition is also available).

>From the book jacket:

"..reveals that Ceausescu's role in international terrorism and
intelligence gathering is greater than has ever been imagined."

"Romania supports an extraordinary network of spies and "agents of
influence"-ranging from ambassadors to American archbishops. Red
Horizons reveals the unparalleled surveillance to which every Romanian
citizen is subjected, detailing how virtually every building in the
country is "bugged" and monitored."

Chapter IX of the book has the subtitle "Hatred for Hungarians".


C.K. Zoltani
+ - Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg write:

>         ...Marriage or nonmarriage--not race, not class, not age,
>         and not the presence or absence of prenatal programs--best
>         predicts a woman's chance of giving birth to a healthy child.
>         An unmarried white college graduate was less likely to bear
>         a healthy child than a married black high school dropout.

Hmmm ...  That's pretty interesting, Greg.  I wish I knew what to make
out of it but it sure seems to support those good old family values,
doesn't it?

Joe
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Or will they turn isolationist, build a huge army that won't ever get used,

So you would want the army to be used?  I am quite happy if they never
have to leave the barracks, Thomas.

Joe
+ - Re: Life expectancy in USA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  7-DEC-1994 22:35:04

>
>>         ...Marriage or nonmarriage--not race, not class, not age,
>>         and not the presence or absence of prenatal programs--best
>>         predicts a woman's chance of giving birth to a healthy child.
>>         An unmarried white college graduate was less likely to bear
>>         a healthy child than a married black high school dropout.
>
>Hmmm ...  That's pretty interesting, Greg.  I wish I knew what to make
>out of it but it sure seems to support those good old family values,
>doesn't it?
>
>Joe

Married men are happier and have longer life spans than unmarried, and
ditto for women, though to a lesser extent.  For those who are familiar
with American history, the unmarried men in the Donner's party died like
flies while the married by and large survived.
Of course, the most common cause of divorce is financial problems.  Anybody
know about divorce statistics in Hungary?  If they've gone up, which I
would guess they have, then the economic problems could be connected to the
decrease in life expectancy, albeit indirectly.



                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - Re: Pictures of the Hungarian Shield and the City of Bu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul:

> What do addresses that look like this refer to:
>         http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary
>
> I've seen htis type of thing often, but don't konw what to do with it.

Those addresses -- and I know Zoli will nit pick on me if I don't get
everything just right -- are the so called home page addresses for
WorldWide Web (WWW) Internet browsers, such as Mosaic and Lynx.  The
http stands for -- if I recall -- "HyperText Transfer Protocol" and the
format is the one used by those WWW browsers and servers.

OK, Zoli, it's your turn. ;-)

Joe
+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  7-DEC-1994 22:46:04
>>
>> Or will they turn isolationist, build a huge army that won't ever get used,
>
>So you would want the army to be used?  I am quite happy if they never
>have to leave the barracks, Thomas.
>
>Joe
As a former member of the US Navy, I agree most whole heartedly!  I'm not
about to advise the elimnation of the military, on the other hand.  A small
military that stays at home is something I find very attractive.  The
current combination of military cutbacks with worldwide peacekeeping
actions, etc. is really taking its toll on military personnel.  Last I
heard, the US Navy is expanding aircraft carrier cruise lengths from six
monthes to one year.  Obviously this hurts morale (imagine saying goodbye
to spouse and family for a year at a time on a regular basis).  The other
extreme, which I referred to in my earlier posting, would be a huge army
that does nothing.  That's another word for Welfare, and I think it would
drain money better spent elsewhere (like education, infrastructure, and
eliminating that pesky deficit).
        Anyhow, to say something about Hungary!  I'm sorry to say I don't
trust the West in the least when it comes to protecting anything titled
"Eastern Europe."  I think Nato would only be extended to Hungary once
membership becomes meaningless.  That is:  when there is no threat of
Hungary being involved in any conflict.  Russia is even more untrustworthy:
 they view foriegn policy as a way of dealing with internal problems.  It
was attitudes like this that created the "realpolitk" and jingoistic
policies in WWI Germany.
        Maybe an alliance amonVisegrad countries (though I won't
trust Slovakia as long as Mear is  also uses foriegn crisis
to take eyes off internal problems) would help?
        Of course, just as I hope there won't be any reason for US soldiers
to go abroad, I also hope that there won't be any need for military action
on the part of Hungary or indeed any country.



                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - Re: Book by Pacepa (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Csaba Zoltani writes:

> A book by I. M. Pacepa, the former chief of the DIE (the Romanian
> equivalent of the CIA) who defected to the West and wrote a fascinating
> portrait of some of his former organization's activities certainly lends
> plausibility to the Austrian allegations.

I am familiar with the book but only gleamed into it at the bookstore.
I think the most plausible reason for the Austrians to disclose what
they knew was to actually prevent the attempt at Eva Maria Barky's life.
It would be counterproductive for the Romanians to go through with it
after this disclosure.

BTW, the silence about this on the Romanian Usenet forum is deafening.
Or should I say it's a silence "heavy with meaning?"

Joe
+ - Re: Ro1zsadomb (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras:

> I think a full copy of the last HUNGARY digest escaped from my mailer.

Yeap!  I caught it.  Dou you want it back?

Joe

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