In an environment, where  women are mostly found in the
workplace as secretaries, attitudes are different to the
place, where men and women work in similar roles.
When I worked at videoton, Hungary in an office with
programmer engineers/etc, both sexes, this tone was
not used, yet the atmosphere was still amiable.
What's more, the boss and party secretary had to
go for walkies on the corridor, as we voted the
smokers out - very much ehead of times for Hungary.
Eva Durant


>
> I haven't been following Eva Baogh and Sandor Kristyan's exchanges re:
> the FORUM, but I can simply add that in the Historical Institute at Kos-
> suth Lajos University, the two secretaries are "mature" women, who were
> introduced to me as "a la'nyok".  True, the senior professor who intro-
> duced us did so with a big smile, which was reciprocated by the "girls."
> Unfortunately, they were not friendly enough with me for me to ask what
> they thought of this appellation.  I assume that they simply accepted it
> as "the way things are."
>
> Udv.,
> Be'la

Perhaps Lenon wondered about these things briefly
when he was into that Indian guru forawhile.
He wanted a world without religion, that was
a longerlasted notion.
Eva Durant


>
> HUNGARY  Joe :
> >I don't suppose you believe in reincarnation?
>  I guess I do not. Lenon (not Lenin !!!) believed it, and in his book he said
 :
>  All atoms in our body completely change in every seven years. I wonder!
>  Probably he did not know too much about mixed reactors and their changing vi
a
>  fluid flux goes in and out. But do not push me! I may was a convinced
>  feminist activist. Or I may say the sentence from Mrs. Doubtfire (the movie)
:
>  "I used to be one."...
>                          Dr. Dr. K.S.

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>Stowe hates socialism/communism (which is an economic system), because he
>thinks it is, or will lead to, or is unatainable without, totalitarianism
>(which is a political system).

Joe:
Interesting post and it ought to stimulate some thoughtful debate. I have
a question or two for you. First of all, has communism ever been adopted
by any nation in this century without a concommitant seizure of political
power by advocates of communism? If communism is, as you claim, an
economic system, why the necessity for its supporters to always hold the
reins of political power? After all, it wasn't J.P. Morgan who said power
comes from the barrel of a gun.

Second, why are Marxist-Leninists living in the west so eager to point out
the flaws in democratic capitalist societies, but so unwilling to admit
the flaws exhibited by the regimes they have created throughout the 20th
Century? They always, a la Durant, fall back on the old canard that
communism has never "really" been tried in its "pure" form. At one point
in the 60s and 70s, large swathes of Asia, Africa and Europe were under
communist regimes. If Marxism-Leninism is such a frail hot-house flower
that it cannot take root anywhere, might this not offer us some clue as to
its actual utility in the real world? Besides, nothing is stopping
Marxist-Leninists like Durant from creating the societies they want. All
they have to do is actually go out and alleviate suffering. Start a soup
kitchen, create a homeless shelter, staff and manage a day care center.
There are undoubtedly Marxist-Leninists who do put their money and time
where their mouths are and undertake these types of projects. But they are
far outnumbered by those who are only interested in seizing political
power and perpetrating themselves in office. For them, actual human
suffering is an abstraction and their interest in it extends only to the
degree that it will further their political schemes. In this regard,
Marxism in particular mirrors the temperament of its creator.

I have already commented on the degree of intellectual control which
communist regimes feel obligated to exercise over their subjects. If
Marxism-Leninism is such a rational political economy, with such obvious
tangible benefits to those who live under it, why is this so? I believe
the answer lies in the fundamental nature of Marxism-Leninism. We are
dealing with a religion here. (More on this later)
Sam Stowe

Hungarian content -- Most Magyars already know from bitter experience that
Marxism-Leninism isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Good luck for the company that tries to be fair and
democratic.  Does anyone know what happened to a
brasilian experiment, where the owner of the
company introduced a similar system, + flexible
hours, they were making domestic appliences.
They seemed very successful.
Eva Durant

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>.. and the morals are great everywhere where capitalism is
>the economic system. Now, why haven't I noticed this?  Also
>(repeat)  totalitarianism (as well as "bad" morals) are well
>nurtured on market economy.  Look for alternative. Picture something
>new.  A genuinly democratic system.  Even die-hard capitalist admit,
>capitalism is not compatible with that and equality/fairness.
>Eva Durant

Note, folks, that under no circumstances will she directly address my
criticisms of Marxism-Leninism. If you are going to make sweeping claims
in favor of the truth of a particular philosophy, it is a cheap rhetorical
escape to try and divert attention to some other topic. Answer my
criticism of Marxism-Leninism directly and honestly and stop avoiding the
questions. Your system has never been implemented in a "genuinely
democratic" manner nor has it ever led to genuine democracy nor has it
ever established equality and fairness as guiding principles of either the
economy or the society.
Sam Stowe

Hungarian content -- How many other true believers in the Marxist-Leninist
system still haunt the public square in Hungary?

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>It's just amazing how far a heritic, who shows that there are several
ways
>to project the world onto a map, can go.  To avoid infestation, future
>leaders should learn at 'provincial' universities.  It's safer.  Once
one's
>mind is made up, facts can be very unsettling.  And a rocked boat makes
for
>an unpleasant journey.
>
>Joe Szalai

Less a heretic, I'll wager, than a fashion-monger who has learned the
great lesson of the late 20th Century in American university circles --
biting the hand that feeds you is cool and profitable. She's not a
scholar. She's simply parroting something that she has seen other
psuedo-academics use to further their own careers. That she is allowed
safe economic haven in a major university to spout this drivel simply puts
the lie to your on-going contention that liberal democracies oppress their
citizens. I got two words for you here, pal: "Radical Chic." She ain't
rockin' anybody's boat.
Sam Stowe

Hungarian content -- If you meet the Buddha on the road to Csepel and he
tries to explain something to you using a Mercator map, run for your life.

P.S. -- Joe, if this woman is your idea of an iconoclast, you need to set
your standards much higher. You're allowing your own provincialism to show
when you admire her so uncritically.

Can anyone help me? I'm Hungarian, but have lived in Canada my whole life. My
parents didn't teach me to speak my mother tongue. I would like to learn. I
lived in Hungary for awhile recently, but one can't learn a whole language in
a year. Now I'm back in Canada for awhile. Is there anyone who can direct me
to someone in New Brunswick who can help me?

                             Varga Istva'n

A friend of mine, Halaman Gyula, is looking to contact Lechner Peter,
brother of Ferenc. Peter went to the Kiralyi Katolikus Gimnazium, he is
an attorney, left Hungary in 1956.
If anyone knows his whereabouts, please E-mail it.
Thank you,
Arpad

At 10:30 PM 1/29/96 EST, Be'la Batkay wrote:
>I haven't been following Eva Baogh and Sandor Kristyan's exchanges re:
>the FORUM, but I can simply add that in the Historical Institute at Kos-
>suth Lajos University, the two secretaries are "mature" women, who were
>introduced to me as "a la'nyok".  True, the senior professor who intro-
>duced us did so with a big smile, which was reciprocated by the "girls."
>Unfortunately, they were not friendly enough with me for me to ask what
>they thought of this appellation.  I assume that they simply accepted it
>as "the way things are."

It is kind of difficult to tell your boss that you object to his behavior.
It takes a certain amount of guts. Also, if you do say: Mr. So and So, I
really don't like you calling me a girl; the answer will be either that you
are either crazy, strident, or simply bitchy.

Yes, they simply accepted as "the way things are," but I can assure you that
they don't enjoy being called "girls" with big smile or with no big smile.
Women talking about such matters among themselves will tell you exactly how
they feel about all this.

Eva Balogh

Eva S. Balogh ) wrote:
: At 12:20 PM 1/26/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:
: >The 5 years  ELTE TTK diploma definitely worth
: >the 4 years MSc, but I agree, that it is not equal
: >to a PhD here (UK), which is usually a 3 years
: >post-gradual work. Eva Durant
: >
: You are talking about England, not the United States. In the United States a
: B.A. takes four years of undergraduate work; two years of postgraduate work
: for an M.A. and four years (minimum) for a Ph.D.
:
: Eva Balogh

the number of years is not all that matters.
the material covered by a bachelor's course at
oxford or cambridge, or the honours courses at
manchester were, at least in the latter half of the
1980's certainly the equivalent of a masters in the usa.

it was quite a shock for me when i was there to exerience
that material which had been a standard part of our undergraduate
curriculum in australia was considered too advanced for undergraduate
courses at osu. i found i was expected to teach material at "university"
which had been part of our third year and fourth year high school
course (out of a six year high-school system).

the sad thing is that the university system in australia
is being forced down the same track as followed by the american ones.

more's the pity.

d.a.

Addition to 'lanyok', 'lanykak' versus mature women exposed to degrading
remarks at job sites. Let us take hospital wards where exactly the same
paternalistic, condescending behavior pattern prevails. You are addressed
as 'egyeske', 'otoske' (no 1, no 5 while using a diminutive) depending on
the number of the bed you are occupying. In certain situations the hierarchy
is more important to acknowledge, it seems to me in Hungary. Is it because
you are at the mercy of somebody? Nora Arato

Thanks for the info Cecilia. It is very hard to know about these
wheeling-and-dealings for obvious reasons. But in the long run, I think
these are the important events, politics are secondary to economics. Here
are some of my comments on your notes.

>First it is in late February, in New York City.  It is a formal,
>policy-making meeting.  No deal will actually be made here.  The goal is to

Interesting, the news report stated that the meeting will be in Budapest.

>Mexican partners, and a friend, is a partner in the Soros fund.  He is a
>managing director of the Soros-Reichmann Fund, as it is called, at least in
>the financial community.

The Soros-Reichmann Fund is often mentioned in the Canadian papers, but it
was never mentioned, that it has invested in Hungary, here is a quote from
a 1994 article:

"Soros, the currency trader who made more than US$1 billion in 1992 in a
series of coups against the central banks, and Reichmann teamed up at the
end of last year to undertake three development projects costing about
US$1.5 billion in Mexico City.  They also set up the US$525 - million
Quantum Realty Trust, named after Soros's flagship, Quantum Trust, which
is advised by Reichmann International (RI)."

>The analysis done by Laszlo and other participants in this conference--and
>all its environment--is that Hungary needs hundreds of billions of dollars
>in new investments.

That will be difficult to raise!

>But, yes there are two Lantos' involved--at least--and it gets pretty
>confusing sometimes.

I am still confused. What is the job for American politician Lantos. I
thought Hungary has the most favoured nation status, what else can be done
politically to help the importation of Hungarian products to the US?

>Soros, and Sarlos are mainly the financial
>experts who are expected to lead the development of larger industrial
>development funds--with others, of course. If you wish to be involved in
>that, write to either Mr. Sarlos, or Mr. Soros.

I could not get past the switchboard operator at Sarlos' office. They did
not say this, but I got the message: don't call us, we will call you if we
think you have a couple $100,000 to invest.

>Any more questions?

Is anybody planning an open-ended Hungarian Found, where Johanne and I can
put a couple thousand dollars?

Barna Bozoki

Hali,
_________________________________________
Andy Vadasz wrote:

To: hl @ Glue.umd.edu @ Internet
cc:  (bcc: John Czifra/SHI)
From: avadasz @ bluemoon.sma.com (Andy Vadasz) @ Internet @ WORLDCOM
Date: 01/30/96 01:47:29 AM CST
Subject: Slovak language law.

According to a Jan. 29 '96 broadcast on Magyar Radio Szulofoldunk
(shortwave) the city Council (tanacs) in Somorja (Slovakia, pop. 12,000) has
declared the dual language requirement of the new "language law" invalid,
based on its conflict with the Slovak constitution. Other jurisdictions are
watching this move and considering their own.

(Comment. This defifintely needs watching. If Somorja succeeds, that could
be meaningful. If not, HL would really have a tougher problem.) Anyone know
more or have suggestions ?
Andy.
            A.J.Vadasz, 5743 Pignut Mountain Drive,
            Warrenton VA 22186 USA  Tel: 540 349 1408
_________________________________________________________________

Is there a copy of the "language law" anywhere?? How about the Slovak
Constitution?? This is only way we can find contradictions between the two.
Also, it's nice to write to political leaders and heads of state, but has
anyone thought of writing to major companies that have huge investments there??
Hit them where it hurts: In the pockets.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Hali,

Szalai Jozsi, you said to the affect that what the Soviet Bloc did was
"political oppression", but if you were in the "Party" it was "politically
correct" to do everything for the party, wasn't it, regardless whether or not
you knew about it or not (More often than not you never knew exactly what was
going on). Rat out your friends, your family, and so on. There are a huge
majority of people in Hungary who say things ran better the "old way" because
that's all they knew. Those who are on the right or extreme right say they're
being "politically harassed" or "politically oppressed", aren't they?? If you
belong to the current "politically correct" scheme of things, then of course,
being the sheep you are, you're going to complain about those on the right sayi
n
g they 're "politically incorrect" and what not. It's an endless cycle of
fingerpointing, which you do very well, I should add, whether you fall on the
left or right politically. That's turns me off to politics all together.
Instead of worrying about who's "politically correct" or not, you should be
concerned if there's a soul in that particular person. Of course, if that
person falls short of "political correctness" according to Comrade Szalai then
that person has no soul, how silly of me to think that Comrade Szalai can go
beyond "political correctness". Like I've said,"It takes 2 to tango.", Jozsi.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

PS: Was there any follow up on the article on the Iron Guard outfit in
Hamilton, that you posted a few months back?? I wonder if they have any
connection with the Vatra Romanesca and even with the Securitate or current
SRI??

At 08:49 AM 1/30/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>Hungarian content -- If you meet the Buddha on the road to Csepel and he
>tries to explain something to you using a Mercator map, run for your life.
>
>P.S. -- Joe, if this woman is your idea of an iconoclast, you need to set
>your standards much higher. You're allowing your own provincialism to show
>when you admire her so uncritically.

You've done it now Sam!  You've hurt me so bad that I'm going to have to
dust off my Patsy Cline albums.

Hungarian content -- Just the tears in my eyes.

Joe Szalai

P.S. -- Are you happy now, Sam?

At 15:42 30/01/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:
>Gary Collins wrote:
>
>> Sandor Kristyan wrote:
>> > ......
>> > lady = holgy
>> > woman=asszony , no"
>> > madam = asszonyom
>> > .......
>>
>> A genuine question, is the Madam referred to as in ....
>>
>> "Yes Madam" as a male shop assistant may say to a woman in his shop.
>> or
>> Madam as in keeper of a house of dubious repute.
>
>The former.  Neither is the third meaning in my Collins (;-) relevant:
>*madam*  ... 3. Brit. informal. a precocious or pompous little girl.
>(Ack, we are back to girls again !)
>
>As for a female brothelkeeper, in Hungarian is is  MADA'M , proving that such
>a thing is not an indigenous occupation for Hungarians.  It also shows
>the gender limitations of the Hungarian language that there is no word for a
>male brothelkeeper.
>
>Any other questions ;-)
>
>George Antony
>

Dear Gary, George, et al -

As a fledgling student of Hungarian, I noticed something about the word
"asszonyom" which has not
been mentioned up to this point. In Magyar, does the "m" on the end of the
word not connote the
personal possessive pronoun? Thus, the word "asszony" means simply "lady,"
and "asszonyom" means
"my lady," which also happens to be the literal meaning of "ma-dame."

As for the fact that Hungarian does not seem to have a word for a male
brothel-keeper, to my knowledge, neither does English. "Whoremaster" seems
to refer more to a man who consorts with prostitutes, and the term "pimp" is
generally understood to refer to a man who acts as a sort of a manager for
one or more prostitutes and who lives off the avails of prostitution, but
the term does not connote a man who manages a "house of ill repute" per se.
So, unless there is a word which has eluded me, English has the same gender
limitation as Hungarian. I guess the only question that remains is, is there
a need for such a term to be developed? Has anyone ever heard of an instance
of a man running a house of ill repute? The only instances I am aware of -
Polly Adler, the Mayflower Madam, and so on - were all female.

Not so puritanically,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Dear Barnaba (and group);

A few extra clarifications relative to your most recent queries:

At 03:17 PM 1/30/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Thanks for the info Cecilia. It is very hard to know about these
>wheeling-and-dealings for obvious reasons. But in the long run, I think
>these are the important events, politics are secondary to economics. Here
>are some of my comments on your notes.
>
>>First it is in late February, in New York City.  It is a formal,
>>policy-making meeting.  No deal will actually be made here.  The goal is to
>
>Interesting, the news report stated that the meeting will be in Budapest.

Laszlo indicated there will be some sort of preliminary meeting in Budapest,
but the main meeting is to take place in New York--where Soros has his
offices.  The Hungarians wanted the main meeting in Budapest, but the
audience they also wanted to attract was principally North American and East
Asian, and since Hungary is generally such a small part of their general
business activities, many of prospective invitees didn't want to take the
time off for the extra travel.  It was felt they would have a higher
turn-out in New York.
>
>>Mexican partners, and a friend, is a partner in the Soros fund.  He is a
>>managing director of the Soros-Reichmann Fund, as it is called, at least in
>>the financial community.
>
>The Soros-Reichmann Fund is often mentioned in the Canadian papers, but it
>was never mentioned, that it has invested in Hungary, here is a quote from
>a 1994 article:
>
>"Soros, the currency trader who made more than US$1 billion in 1992 in a
>series of coups against the central banks, and Reichmann teamed up at the
>end of last year to undertake three development projects costing about
>US$1.5 billion in Mexico City.  They also set up the US$525 - million
>Quantum Realty Trust, named after Soros's flagship, Quantum Trust, which
>is advised by Reichmann International (RI)."
>

They also have 3 small projects in Hungary now, one of them literally a
small "nuts and bolts factory."  The 1994 article has old information.  I
also know that these Hungarian projects, along with others literally took
years to put together in some instances, and had so many setbacks, that VC's
and other principals got into the habit of not reporting anything until both
the ink was dry on signed contracts, and the first signs of real
implementation were appearing.

>>The analysis done by Laszlo and other participants in this conference--and
>>all its environment--is that Hungary needs hundreds of billions of dollars
>>in new investments.
>
>That will be difficult to raise!

No kidding, now you know why the meeting isn't in Hungary--or West Europe
either.  The largest piles of money these days are on the Pacific Rim,
followed by sections of the East Coast U.S. and then England.  However, even
the English, French and Dutch have a large portion of their capital
here--even in banks and investment funds here.
>
>>But, yes there are two Lantos' involved--at least--and it gets pretty
>>confusing sometimes.
>
>I am still confused. What is the job for American politician Lantos. I
>thought Hungary has the most favoured nation status, what else can be done
>politically to help the importation of Hungarian products to the US?
>
Export/import financing--essentially loans for buyers; on the Hungarian side
for buying tooling and technology, on the U.S. side for finished products
sometimes.  Second, priority status for loans for building facilities in
Hungary that involve U.S. partners, and marketing in North America of these
joint ventures' products etc..  There are a number of programs throughout
several departments where the prioritization helps...


>>Soros, and Sarlos are mainly the financial
>>experts who are expected to lead the development of larger industrial
>>development funds--with others, of course. If you wish to be involved in
>>that, write to either Mr. Sarlos, or Mr. Soros.
>
>I could not get past the switchboard operator at Sarlos' office. They did
>not say this, but I got the message: don't call us, we will call you if we
>think you have a couple $100,000 to invest.

True, however it can be done for $25,000 or so.  One can also "bundle" or
pool a group of smaller investments together for one lump sum, but even that
is expected to have the same people getting together year after year
providing similar sums.   It can be done, but you're right, it isn't easy.
What would probably need to be done, is have the smaller investors form a
limited partnership with just a few rules and committments that everyone
signs.  As part of that, if one partner chooses to leave, they should find
his or her replacement.  A partnership does not require an office, or much
of anything.  Technically, in some states, you don't even have to file a
business license until just before you realistically expect to begin making
money.  It's just a legal agreement to protect and organize those within it
for themselves.  You'd be surprised how many VC companies are little more
than that.
>
>>Any more questions?
>
>Is anybody planning an open-ended Hungarian Found, where Johanne and I can
>put a couple thousand dollars?
>
Not right now, and not likely for the short-term future (next 2 or 3 years),
at even the best.  Hungary is just too small of a place, right now, and
there are questions about the general business acumen of the business
owners, managers, workers etc. The fund managers and larger investors fear
"the residual communist mentalities," to quote one stock-broker from
Smith-Barney, "sometimes regardless of realities."  Part of that trick is
convincing the managers and bigger investors that the country really isn't
communist and hasn't been for a long time, and has a big market for its
products, somehow.

China does a great snow job in this--and is still attracting far more
investment money than any reasonable broker, or fund manager, who knows
anything about the internal situation thinks it ought.  They know that
there's a very high probability of something approaching civil war breaking
out at almost any time (as soon as Deng is acknowledged dead), but they
"still have to put a percentage of their funds there because of _specific
instructions_ of so many ignorant investors."  All anyone chooses to see is
that huge potential market, without regard for how long it has managed to
stay really nothing more than a potential.  Most non-Chinese VC's out here
now won't touch China.  They don't believe the country is going to be a good
financial risk for at least another generation.  But the PRC has an
excellent propaganda machine and uses it very well...

Anyhow, the best bet is a "Central Europe Fund" from one the larger families
of mutual funds, in which a certain substantial percentage could be in
Hungary.  Fidelity or Warburg Pincus would be good possibilities for a group
of Hungarians--and others, together, to "lobby" and pool some investments
together to add credibility.  WRITE LETTERS SUGGESTING THIS, AND CALL THE
FUND MANAGERS FIRST, however.  Provide them with solid business
information--especially information that can make realistic comparisons of
business life, business and technology education, quality of products,
success of existing companies, etc. in Hungary with Western countries, and
emerging nations generally regarded as "better risks," like Costa Rica,
Chile, Argentina, the "five tigers" nations of east and southeast Asia,
South Africa, Kuwait, Israel, Spain, Greece and Portugal.  Emphasize the
Visegrad Group and Pentagonale connections and what those specifically do to
ease the sale of Hungarian products and the import of raw materials, etc. in
neighboring countries, as well as the EC connection--point out that Hungary
is the only nation that has memberships in _all three_ of these
trade/economic organizations.

Get the "annual mutual fund rankings" issues of The Kiplinger "Personal
Finance" magazine, "U.S. News and World Report," "Money," and "The Wall
Street Journal" to both determine the best possibilities of fund families to
lobby for at least a Central Europe Fund (Germany, Austria, the Visegrad
Group, Croatia and Slovenia, Ukrania and the Baltics) and to find the fund
managers' names, and the telephone and fax numbers for the companies, etc.
You'll also figure out which families are generally better at managing
investments in the first place--an especially important consideration for
small investors.

Start with the "no-load" or low-load funds and families.  This means a "0"
or  low percentage charge for the service of managing the investment (buying
or selling stocks, not general management, really).  0-3 percent taken from
your capital gain is a whole lot better than 5-7% especially when you
consider that the average gain is 14% a year for a good fund, and you turn
around and pay another 4-6% a year in federal and state taxes.  An
interesting thing, that many people have also noted, is the "no and low
load" funds generally do better than the ones with the higher loads.  This
causes speculation that the reason certain funds charge higher loads is to
make up for the poor management...  Also select families which have at least
5 funds, including at least one international or global fund.  This will
narrow the research down to fewer than 100 of 6,000 individual funds, and
fewer than 10 families...

Anyhow, about a year ago, I talked with several brokers and two assistants
to fund managers about precisely this issue, and this all was the
information I got at that time.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Group:

At 10:48 AM 1/30/96 -0800, you wrote:

>At 10:30 PM 1/29/96 EST, Be'la Batkay wrote:
>>I haven't been following Eva Baogh and Sandor Kristyan's exchanges re:
>>the FORUM, but I can simply add that in the Historical Institute at Kos-
>>suth Lajos University, the two secretaries are "mature" women, who were
>>introduced to me as "a la'nyok".  True, the senior professor who intro-
>>duced us did so with a big smile, which was reciprocated by the "girls."
>>Unfortunately, they were not friendly enough with me for me to ask what
>>they thought of this appellation.  I assume that they simply accepted it
>>as "the way things are."
>
>It is kind of difficult to tell your boss that you object to his behavior.
>It takes a certain amount of guts. Also, if you do say: Mr. So and So, I
>really don't like you calling me a girl; the answer will be either that you
>are either crazy, strident, or simply bitchy.
>
>Yes, they simply accepted as "the way things are," but I can assure you that
>they don't enjoy being called "girls" with big smile or with no big smile.
>Women talking about such matters among themselves will tell you exactly how
>they feel about all this.
>
Here's an interesting combined situations incident that really occurred in
one of the politically most liberal states in the U.S. less than 15 years
ago.  (The state's made some improvement, since then, but still has a long
ways to go...)

The state was Minnesota (Walter Mondale, Hubert Humphrey, Eugene McCarthy,
Donald and Arvonne Fraser, et al).  The issue, widespread discrimination and
oppression of female workers by the largest public employer in the
state--Hennepin County.  Three lawsuits had been filed by the clerical,
paraprofessional and social workers unions.  State Human Rights Commission
was conducting hearings--this is in the minutes and more or less publicly
available.  Commissioners: we've seen overwhelming evidence that you are
discriminating against women for no other reason than the fact they are
women.  Why are you doing this, how do you think you can get away with such
blatant activities?  Hennepin County Personnel Director Thomas(?) Dudley and
assistant director Roland Toenges (both were asked similar questions to
determine consistency of attitudes and level of solidarity in department):
because it's not discrimination.  The law says women have to be singled
out--we discriminate against all women equally.  We're not the only ones,
everyone else that's a major employer does it too."  This was followed up by
requests for additional documents from the gentlemen, and Dudley told the
commissioners multiple times, "I'll have my girl get that for you."

Now at exactly the same time the suit and related discrimination were going
on, the largest HMO in the state--which insured the vast majority of
Hennepin County employees added two new programs to their coverage--stress
management and therapies, and TMJ treatment.  Why?  Because they had a major
surge in stress related illnesses, particularly TMJ problems, from female
workers.  Sure, they all kept silent to keep their jobs,-- but also ground
their teeth a lot, raised their blood pressure, were having more heart
attacks and strokes, etc., etc..

Now has anyone been checking the levels of these in Hungary--and who
comprise the majority of patients?

By the way, figuring out the costs of all the extra medical treatment along
with the lawsuits, was what finally caused the county board of supervisors
(called commissioners, also) to start changing things...

Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva;

At 10:33 AM 1/30/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>
>> How do theories get started anyway?  Don't they start out from some one's
>> personal beliefs and questions that he or she is still seeking to prove or
>> disprove?  Aren't the hypotheses often set based upon desires and
>> expectations and the selections of either experiments or situations to
>> observe made based upon the desires and expectations?
>>
>
>I don't think the theory of marxist philosophy is based on
>personal beliefs, Marx looked at historical/economical/natural
>scientifical  data for his "prouncements".

According to my Encyclopedia's (I'll just cite mostly the _Concise Columbia
Encyclopedia_ for a little brevity) Marx worked as a ordinary journalist for
an American newspaper, "The New York Tribune" while in London.  His mentors,
that is, those he was "influenced by"--using Columbia's words, were first
Ludwig Feuerbach and Moses Hess, then Friedrich Engels. Engels was the son
of a manufacturer and managed a factory.  The "Communist Manifesto" is
considered to be more his work than Marx's while "Das Kapital" is considered
more Marx's.  What caused both Engels and Marx to do the research they did
was their own personal experiences--and the desire to know if they were
unique, rare, or common.  Then when they thought they'd done enough
research--and scientific methodology wasn't very far along for social
sciences at the time--most of the social sciences in any form did not exist
in any universities--they decided to come up with some ideas for change.

These were theories and ideas, and not all parts were well substantiated.
Since real historical research and archeology were still in their infancy,
there was little they could use to search for precedents of parts of their
theories.  I do think they would have looked for them, had they known how,
and what and where.  I think they tried with the tools and knowledge they
had, but those were limited and they didn't always recognize that.  They
also did not set up human trials of small communities that operated solely
on these principals similar to medical trials, and they themselves lived on
salaries and proceeds from factory ownership and did not pool their
resources in any common community, as the first Christian apostles tried to
do--and failed to maintain.
>I have personal opinions that are formed basing my outlook on
>this philosophy. However, if it wasn't logical and fact-based,
>I would discard it, regardless of any emotional attachment to
>it, if any.

Yes, but can you, or I or anyone else claim omniscient knowledge of all
reality and facts.  First our knowledge and experiences are limited, no
matter how hard we may try to broaden them.  Then we have to imagine also
the possibilities of other fields of knowledge and experience and pursue
them.  Then we have to look at the quality and quantities of measurement and
wonder if even the sophistication of that is really enough--is there more
analysis, and means that will provide more insight yet, in our future.
Finally we exercise personal choice to determine what of all the myriad
facts we may have accumulated, is most relevant to different situations.
What we select and believe to be most important, some other intelligent and
educated person might not.  We would come to different conclusions and yet
both could be supported by facts.

We look back on Marx, Engels and other philosophers and economists and say,
"ah yes, here's where they were wrong because we now know this and that, and
have all these new tools to measure and analyse."  Isn't it likely though
that 100 years from now, our descendants will be able to say the same things
about us?

 Also, I am still waiting to hear a similarily
>factual explanation, based on current trends,
>why the capitalist (market economy) world system is a
>practical way to the future.

According to numerous anthropologists, capitalism is more practical because
it concerns itself with individuals and personal ownership of things, or
efforts, and personal reward.  There is quite a lot of scientific research
using human trials in many countries, that shows one uncomfortable fact of
human nature.  The most basic instinct, the first instinct of all human
beings is selfishness, because that is what is needed to just survive.
Self--one individual, one person.  Property, grabbing, holding and not
letting go is one of the first concepts--to control resources that might be
necessary to survive.  Whenever human beings feel insecure, and don't trust
situations or people they immediately emotionally, mentally withdraw into a
survival mode, and react accordingly.  Communism made two basic assumptions
that the knowledge and research of the times just simply did not exist for
Marx and Engels to really know were off.  First that man's basic nature was
"good," altruistic and cooperative, and second, that even if later education
from parents, schools, etc. turned man away from this, changes in education
could bring man back to the original "better" nature.  They also believed
that once the habits and knowledge of the better nature were established
they would be voluntarily maintained, all, or almost all the time,
especially as everyone around was all behaving in the same way.  People just
don't behave that way, even when living in small isolated rural communes in
the wilds of America, or England (such as Lindisfarne) and deliberately
trying to live that way.  It's simply never been able to be maintained.

It is not
>rewarding or comfortable to be a marxist/be in a minority.
>I am willing to change my mind, if I see any reason for it.
>
>I've been posing this question for ages, and all I get is personal
>abuse and history lesson on stalinism (tisztelet a kivetelnek.)

I hope you don't consider this message more of the same.  I do appreciate
and understand your feelings and hope I don't often tread on them.  I've
been there too.  I may not always agree with you, but I want you to know, I
like you anyway, and there are times I do agree.

For you "guys" (Dave Barry sense) out there--kindly stifle or stuff those
derisive comments about maudlin sentimentality, please!  You'll never know
when you might appreciate a little "maudlin sentimentality," too.  You're
human also...  At least I personally think or believe you've evolved that
far. ;-)

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA










>Eva Durant
>
>
N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Eva and Group:

After the first posting to Eva today to respond to how Marx developed his
theories, went to the anthropology section in my library, and to my Mark
Twain section for a few more items.

First, Mark Twain (Samuel L. Clemens) was a common journalist in terms of
position and salary for a time until he began writing books.  He gives an
excellent description of the life of "common journalist" about 20 years
later than Marx, when one might have thought conditions were improving.  He
noted in his mostly autobiographical _Roughing It_ that journalists didn't
earn very much or live very well.  If he wanted to fulfill his dreams of
being famous and rich he had to do something else--and in the end became a
writer--not just a journalist by his own determination.

When I read that book again a few months ago, at one point I remembered
something the late President John Kennedy once said, and it suddenly made a
lot more sense.  He said, "if his superiors at the American newspaper had
had the sense to treat Karl Marx better, we wouldn't have to worry about
communism at all."

Looked up the history of the social sciences, also.  The best brief summary
of that history is in a book called _Cultural Evolutionism: Theory in
Practice_, 1971 Elman R. Service, University of California, Santa Barbara.

"In the _latter half of the 19th century_(my emphasis, but Service's words),
a more empirical and less ethno-centric evolutionary perspective appeared."
"Morgan in the U.S.A. and Tylor in England were the most influential
evolutionists in anthropology;  Saint-Simon, Comte and Durkheim in France
and Spencer in England were pioneers in sociology;..."

The problem with this is _all_ these gentleman's major works that set the
standards for and developed the fields of cultural anthropology and
sociology--and later behavioral sciences, were written years after "The
Communist Manifesto," and some even after "Das Kapital."  Marx and Engels
tried to use anthropology to support their theories, but, _much of what they
needed to really prove or disprove their theories simply did not exist at
that time.

Other books specifically noted that Emile Durkheim in particular
deliberately developed his methodologies of study just to answer the
question of whether Marxism was humanly viable.  According to Service, this
was not answered as late as the early 20th century.  There was no consensus
that it was viable, at that time, and since then the consensus has developed
that Marxism is not viable--according to the latest knowledge and
methodologies which may not yet be the final examination.  Who knows what
scientists will discover in another 100 years?  Regretfully, Eva, and
others, however, the present body of knowledge says "no."

Thanks for reading.

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, 95148

P.S. Things could have been worse for Marx, someday go read Mark Twain's
experiences in _Roughing It_--including as a reporter.  I'm not sure which
was worse, "the genuine Mexican plug," "experiencing Mono Lake," or the
"stove filled with ammunition"...   Then there was the time he had to follow
a flour sack all over Nevada...  ;-)



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Joe:

At 10:34 AM 1/30/96 -0500, you wrote:

D^2 wrote:

>Well, in Hungarian offices the secretaries,
> coworkers (females of course) are called girls. Independently of their
> ages. They LIKE it, it is polite, very polite

Such sweeping generalization betrays a rather insensitive and patronizing
approach even by the Hungarian standards that are more accepting of such
implied putdowns than the English-speaking West.

Moreover, even if such behaviour were uniformly acceptable in Hungary (as I
contend it is not), applying the same to people living in a different culture
exposes a large dose of ignorance.  One thing, many readers on this list are
lacking a Hungarian cultural background by birth or experience, and hence
have little understanding and zero tolerance of such antics.  Second, many of
us born and bred in Hungary have assumed some of the behavioural norms of our
new countries and do not respond to this girlie thing the same way as you may
expect some poorly-paid bookkeeper or typist in the office of an agricultural
cooperative in the back blocks of Hungary to do.

Similarly, one needs some appreciation of cultural differences to realize that
Hungarian slang and jocularity rarely translate well into English, even by the
bilingually adept.  Attempting to do so may look just as silly in an English-
language discussion medium as using Hungarian names in the Hungarian order of
surname first, first name second.

But then it is everyone's inalienable right to make themselves look as silly
as they please.


George Antony

> Felado :  [Australia]
> > As of 1995, there is a new setup, one that makes me see red though.
> > Doctorates are being given in Hungary now, granting a Ph.D in only 1.-2
> > years after the completion of the diplom. Albeit, everyone claims that
> > the first un9versity degree is equivalent to teh masters in the US, I
> > have seen what geography students have to learn and I am quite sorry,
> > that ain't a Ph.D from any top 20 geography school in the US, or I'll
> > wager Britain, Australia, or Ireland, Germany, etc.
>
> This is my impression also.  It looks like that old 'university doctorate'
> is being rechristened as Ph.D., and this will not improve the recognition
> of Hungarian qualifications.  The latter is rather unflattering at the
> moment, with authoritative international comparisons equating Hungarian
> 5-year university degrees (complete with dissertation and defence thereof
> plus a 'state examination' by a panel) with 3-year courses in developed
> English-speaking countries.  This is just as unfair as is ridiculous the
> claim of a Ph.D. by holders of Hungarian 'university doctorates'.

Well, I don't know much about geography (sorry, couldn't resist) but the
value of these degrees depends a great deal on the field of study.  Hungarian
"okleveles matematikus" was/is routinely accepted as a masters degree, and
"kisdoktori" was/is often accepted as PhD (each university used to make its
own determination). As far as I can see, this was overvaluing the kisdoktori
(especially if you compare it to a Princeton PhD the difference is enormous
-- compared to the Kalamazoo State PhD the difference is not so striking) but
undervaluing the okleve1l.

Any reasonable okleveles matematikus could get well into the 95th percentile
of the standard graduate school math admissions test (the GRE math subject
test). Back in Hungary as a math student I was maybe in the 85th-90th
percentile -- on the GRE (this is not the "math" section of the general GRE,
but the "subject" test) I was in the 99th percentile. It was clear that the
average Hungarian math student learned considerably more in five years than
the average US math major learned in four, and two years of graduate study
(for a total of six) would put the US M.Sc. only barely ahead the Hungarian
okleveles matematikus (who only had five years). Add another 2-3 years for
the Hungarian kisdoktori, and the Hungarian knows more (now after a total of
7 or 8 years) than the US M.Sc (who of course only had six years).

The big gap is really in graduate school -- there is nothing in the leisurly
process of earning your kisdoktori or kandida1tusi that compares to the
intensity of a good US graduate program. In many fields, (definitely in math
and physics, and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that in geography too)
after four years the Hungarian students are way ahead of their college-
educated US counterparts, but after their fifth year they don't go on and
study full time, they get a job and devote considerably less of their
energies to studying.

> As for the Hungarian first degrees being equivalent to a Masters, well,
> sometimes that may well be, but then it is a coursework-only Masters.
> Of the latter, there are a few offered by universities in English-speaking
> countries of the West, and some of these are a one-year course.  Given that
> the Hungarian five-year 'diplomaed' (approx. = 'certified') agricultural
> science courses contain all the trappings of a thorough UK/Australian Honours
> degree, plus an extra year of coursework and additional examination by
> outsiders, this is not unreasonable.

Don't know much about agricultural science (sorry again) and even less about
the UK/Australian system. I heard that in the UK kisdoktori is generally
taken to be an M.Phil., which (if my understanding is correct) is a
coursework only degree, somewhat similar to the US "terminal masters", a
consolation prize of a degree, generally awarded to those who were deemed
unfit to go for a full PhD but completed the first two years of a PhD
program. If this is true, it represents something of an undervaluation of the
kisdoktori, because kisdoktori requires a thesis which (at least in math)
must contain results publishable in a refereed journal or conference
proceedings. But again, all I know about the UK thing is hearsay, feel free
to correct me.

> > Of course, part of this is related to standardizatio with 'western'
> > systmes of education so that some leverl of comparability is there.
> > However, I have read a couple of the 'dissertations' and they are not
> > quite theoretical enough to pass a Ph.D exam here. I am not saying this
> > is not a bad idea, but it still needs a little work.
>
> Well, being 'theoretical' is not a precondition in Australian technical
> fields at least.  The requirement is to offer something new in theory or
> application.

This much seems to be met by the kisdoktori, so in principle the idea of
unifying it with the kandida1tusi and calling both a PhD is not untenable.
I think the real problem is the lack of graduate schooling. For some weird
reason in Hungary graduate study is called "postgraduate" work, perhaps
because those doing their kisdoktori or kandida1tusi enjoy the same
flexibility as US postdocs do. But the difference is that the US postdoc
went through four (actually, often as much as six) years of rigorous
graduate study to earn the 'doc', and the Hungarian "postgaduate" student or
"aspira1ns" never did. When I came to the US, having already completed a
kisdoktori and unofficially defended (munkahelyi ve1de1s) a kandida1tusi in
a different field, I honestly thought graduate school at Standford will be a
breeze.  Yeah, sure.  If I had the faintest inkling of how much pain is
involved in getting a PhD I would have probably decided to sit on my
kandida1tusi laurels...

Andra1s Kornai

Hello,

American-Hungarians in San Francisco!

I'm visiting San Francisco from 17th (take-off from London)/18th
February until the 24th. Does anyone have a spare couch I could crash
out on? I'll contribute to the domestic side of things (stocking the
larder, washing up, etc.)

Even if you cannot put me up would you be prepared to show me around
the city for a day/evening? (It's my first visit to the States.)

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
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