(Alexander Bossy) writes:

>	Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the 
>majority of the population was ethnic Romanian.  

By which date was Romania recognized as a state by international
organizations?

>The Western powers 
>really don't give a damn who got there first.  The fundamental question 
>is one of self-determination.

The fundamental question was to bring about a new status quo. K&K
no more. Communist threat no more. They cared about self-determination
about as much as who got there first. 

>Too bad that you think that is "much less 
>noble" than Hungary's hanging on to as much territory as she could, never 
>mind that the population of that territory did not want to live under her 
>rule.

I agree. Imperial dreams were/are hard to give up. 
Moldavia? -):
--

 (Illes Eszterhas) writes:

>DBrutus ) wrote:

>: this group. I find the Hungarian position either badly argued or
>: simply lacking in merit. Of course, this could be the self-serving
>: justification of someone who is personally biased. but can anyone
>: really doubt that if there would be a plebescite held today that
>: the large majority of Transylvanians would vote again for union
>: with Romania?
>So sure? If I compare the GDP/person or the standart level of life
>in Hungary and in Romania I do have some doubts.
>Illes


and of course let's not forget the third option, of going it 
alone.


--

>    (Janos Szamosfalvi)  writes :
 
:       Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the 
: majority of the population was ethnic Romanian. 

>But Romania also got some parts of Hungary proper where the majority of
>population was not ethnic Romanian.

Janos,

Oh, yeah, the town "Pizdovar" ?
Looks like you got that old tape from Panonescu and have been playing it
over and over again and again.

IT'S BOOOOOORRRIIINNNGGGG !
IT'S BOOOOOORRRIIINNNGGGG !
IT'S BOOOOOORRRIIINNNGGGG !

Either that or you and him have been smelling each other farts far tooo
long.

How about if you guys stop cutting the "KASHKAVAL" for a change and
let some fresh air come in.

By the way, like some other gentleman mentioned before:

May  "o sula'n cur" (the Force , Romanian style) be with you !

Adrian

DBrutus ) wrote:
: From:  (Alexander Bossy)

: >DBrutus ) wrote:
: >: I see
: >: little wrong with a compact ethnic group with fairly easily defined
: >: borders getting its wish of independance from an abusive colonial
: >: master. The problem comes in only when you have isolated enclaves
: >: like the Hungarian areas right smack in the middle of Romania or
: >: the Armenian enclave of Ngorno Karabakh.

: > Actually, Nagorno Karabakh is seperated from Armenia proper by 
: >less than a mile; early in the Soviet period, it was attached to, and 
: >infact part of, Armenia.  But, the Turks protested, so Stalin carved it 
: >off, put it into Azerbaijan, and made a small portion of it part of 
: >Azerbaijan proper in order to keep it from reuniting with Armenia.  In 
: >other words, classical imperial divide and conquer tactics.

: I stand corrected. Since there is no such Hungarian corridor from
: the Hungarian pockets to Hungary proper, I would stand by my
: position that reunification is about as practical as Romanian
: autonomy for sections of Ridgewood, NY, that is not at all practical.

	Fair enough.  With the exception of small cities (Vatican city, 
etc) Lesotho is the only country completely surrounded by another 
country.  Its practical sovereignty is, to say the least, limited.

: The real solution is for Romanians to give equal rights to all
: so that all individuals are satisfied irrespective of their
: ethnicity.

	True, though I would also add that decentralization is also important.

	Alexander

 wrote:
: In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote
:

: >	No, Joe, once again your grip of historical reality proves itself 
: >quite weak.  The Eastern Roman Empire only fell in 1453 when the Ottoman 
: >Turks sacked Constantinople.  The Magyars had arrived in the Carpathian 
: >Basin some half millenium earlier.

: What relavence does that have to the former Pannonia and Dacia?  They
: were not part of the Eastern Roman Empire, so you're just blowing hot
: air again.  In fact, the Magyars arrived there some half millenium later
: than the Romans were last seen in the Carpathian basin (by the Huns).

	If you hadn't bothered removing your own words, you would clearly 
see that you said that the Roman Empire was long dead when the Magyars 
arrived.  It wasn't.  Therefore, your recitation of historical fantacies 
was just that.  If territorial rights is determined by which state 
controlled what piece of territory first, then the Magyars, having 
conquered Pannonia, should have restored it to Roman rule.  Failure to do 
so would constitute "squatting" on another's property.
	The only way around claims that Hungary is squatting on stolen Roman 
land is to reject your statist views, and accept that what really matters 
is the will of the population.  Since most Hungarians, I am sure, would 
rather live in Hungary than in a restored Roman Empire, Hungary is a 
legitmimate state.  Likewise, since most Transylvanians, we both agree, 
would rather live in Romania than in a restored Hungarian kingdom, 
Transylvania is a legitimate Romanian province.  You can't have it one 
way for Hungarians, and another way for Romanians unless you are a 
racist.  I hope that you are not.

	Also, it is worth mentioning that your knowledge of Eastern Roman 
frontiers is obviously non-existing.  (Why doesn't it suprise me that you 
post what ever make-believe frontiers would support your ideology 
anyway?)  In the reign of Emperor Basil II the Bulger-slayer, Eastern 
Roman frontiers were restored to the Danube, from the Black Sea more or 
less to modern Austria.  The remained there for the better part of two 
centuries.

	Or have I completely misunderstood you?  Basil's troops were seen 
in 1025.  In your own words, "the Magyars arrived there [modern-day 
Hungary] some half millenium later [i.e., after the last Romans were seen 
there]".
	So, if you actually know anything about imperial borders (in other 
words, if you aren't BSing like you usually do,) you must believe that the 
Magyars arrived in Central Europe the late 1600's.  Since we know that 
Moldavia and Wallachia were in existance since at least the 1200's, it is 
clear that you acknowledge the historical fact that Romanians pre-date the 
Magyars in Dacia.  Wow, what a misunderstanding!  From what you posted, 
we thought that you didn't have any concept of that fact.  I'm 
certain that we are all red-faced with embarrasment that we didn't 
realize that your problem was that you don't understand how 
callendars work.  I'm sure that your home-room teacher will help you 
with that, if you are a good boy, and ask her nicely.  When you become a 
grown-up in another 16 or 18 years, I suggest that you take History 101 
in whatever college you get into (if you get into one), and check up on 
the historical dates.

: > Never mind that Romanians are Eastern Orthodox.

: That's right, I don't, for that Church did not legitimize any Romanian king o
r
: state in the area and time in question.

	So, the Pope gives the Catholic Hungarians the right to rule the 
Orthodox Romanians, and the Orthodox Romanians should recognize this 
as legitimit?  Why?  He's not our leader, never was, and never will be.  
Does it suprise you to see people post about Hungarian colonial rule?

: >	Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the 
: >majority of the population was ethnic Romanian.  The Western powers 
: >really don't give a damn who got there first.  The fundamental question 
: >is one of self-determination.  Too bad that you think that is "much less 
: >noble" than Hungary's hanging on to as much territory as she could, never 
: >mind that the population of that territory did not want to live under her 
: >rule.

: I think I already expounded on what I thought about that particular
: implementation of the self-determination principle.

	And acknowledge that things wouldn't be very different under your 
favorite scenario.

: BTW, how about
: implementing the self-determination also for the Hungarian minority
: where they form local majorities?  After all, before Trianon, Romanians
: were also a minority in the Hungarian Kingdom and majority only in
: Transylvania.

	Before Trianon, Hungarians were also a minority in the Hungarian 
Kingdom, and a majority only in present-day Hungary.  So, in their great 
wisdom, the victorious allies gave the Hungarians a state where they 
could be the majority.  Wasn't that nice of them? ;-)

: And I am not even talking about ceeding from Romania;
: only local autonomy.

	I've previously argued in favor of local autonomy.  Your response 
was that everything I posted was "pathetic".  Do you now agree with me?  
Do you retract your statments?  Or is this retration only for whatever 
amount of time it suits your arguments, at which point you will resume 
calling everything that I've posted pathetic?

:  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no?

	You sure don't seem to think so.  Self-determination for 
Hungarians.  Involability of national borders for everyone else.

	Alexander

From:  ()
>In article >, DBrutus >
wrote:
>>If there would have been an acceptable plebescite most of 
>>Transylvania would have gone to Romania according to Mr. Pannon.
>>Yet even though he admits that most of Transylvania should be
>>in Romania, restoring fully half the territory was only "a partial 
>>justice".  Am I alone in smelling something wrong here?

>Depends what you smell as wrong.  For if you had read an earlier post of

When you take contradictory positions *in the same post*
and don't fess up when called on it but continue to try
to defend what was, at best an error in composition of
your argument. I smell hypocracy. I smell self serving
propaganda. I smell someone who doesn't let truth stand
in the way of an argument.

>mine (and remembered it, instead of trying to find something you could
>catch me on), you would know that I basically object to the idea that a
>country with liberal immigration policies should be a victim of those
>policies when the immigrants outnumber those who originally >established
the state.  It's like inviting guests to a party and then 
>the guests kick out the host, claiming they are the majority.

Sorry, I missed it. But since you bring this up here I'll try to
address this point as well. Hungarian mythology is that all the
latinized dacians disappeared from Transylvania in a vast
migration before the arrival of the Hungarians. Romanian 
mythology is that we never left, we've been here since 
Emperor Traian set up his triumphal column. Both peoples
want to claim the right of original occupation. But I'm not
even sure that original occupation is even a valid criteria.

Should the Bosnian muslims be denied self-governance because
their great grand-dads great grand-dad was some ottoman
bureaucrat that married a local and converted her to Islam?
I don't think so. 

Should Serbia retain Kosovo even though it is 90%+ Albanian?
It is hard to argue for it given a clear determination of the 
residents therein to get out of that lunatic country.

The reality  is that a large majority today in Transylvania 
would not wish to be united with Hungary. Live with it or 
convince them that they would get a better deal in Budapest.


In the tradition of Publius, Cato, and Centinel...
Decius Brutus

Subject: Re: Piscina cu cadavre a lui Oali Kiler
In article >,
from the Organization: Freedom group
Ms Liviu Grigore barfs...
>Ce ziceti fratilor? Piscina PUBLICA transformata adhoc in depozit pentru 
>cadavre. Oali urmarit de securitate, dar, destept cum este, a scapat de 
>citeva ori de cel ce-l avea in "paza". Cine este Oali domnilor? Si ce 
>dotat este! Si citi tigani si unguri prietenosi a intilnit el acolo!
>Nici un Roman insa. In fara bineinteles, de cel ce-l urmarea. 

From:  (Miha Ahronovitz)
Liviu Grigore, iar vorbesti niste prostii ieftine fara pereche. 
LASA-I PE ALTII INFINIT MAI CAPACITATI DECIT TINE SA ARGUMENTEZE
INTELIGENT CU WALLY KEELER. Esti incapabil sa spui ceva interesant in
discutia asta si cel putin daca o faci, ar trebui sa scrii in engleza ca
sa poatea sa-ti raspunda Wally.

Rapaiala ta de cuvinte parazite si asociatii incongruente nu este de nici
un ajutor  pentru contributorii inteligenti si informati (Dan Cazacu este
un exemplu bun) de pe SCR care sustin excelent o polemica cu Wally
Keeler. Cind deschizi gura, ne faci un deserviciu tuturor. Parca ai fi un
urangutan in cusca la gradina zoologica, scotind sunete guturale agatat
de gratii Te astept cu bratele deschise.
-- 
Mircea )
***************************************************************
*...(He) takes a deep breath as if the silence were a fragance*
Thomas Beller, Live Wires. The New Yorker Dec 13, 1993.

Oh gee! Ms Liviu (the infected lover of Mark CodreAnus Crispie Critters)
I guess you got heck from Miha. Has your infection cleared up or do you
still need massive doses of antibiotics? You sure walk funny nowadays.
Miha, there are some people that are just a waste of time to engage in
some sustained excellent polemics -- Ms Liviu is one -- she is so stupid
she would drown in a glass of water.


-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Kim Niendorf > wrote:
>I have a simple (and mundane?) question for anyone in this group who
>may be prepared to help me.  A friend last week returned from Budapest
>and presented me with a bottle of "Zwack".  Can anyone please tell me
>1)Is this widely consumed in Hungary;
>2)What is it made of (Caramel is the only ingredient I can recognise;
>3)What is the preferred method of drinking (i.e. straight, mixed,
>      diluted etc.)
>
>Any replies will be appreciated, either through this ng or e-mail.
>
>Kim

Hallo Kim!

1.) Yes, if the hungarian has a money for it...
2.) It is a secret of the producer - this has been never published.
3.) It is a "digestive", you should drink it pure.

In article >, DBrutus > wrote:
>
>I've been looking over the historical justification arguments
>(which I'm finding very educational on both sides) that go on in
>this group. I find the Hungarian position either badly argued or
>simply lacking in merit. Of course, this could be the self-serving
>justification of someone who is personally biased.

How perceptive of you!

> can anyone
>really doubt that if there would be a plebescite held today that
>the large majority of Transylvanians would vote again for union
>with Romania? If not, why aren't Hungarian politicians concentrating
>on organizing such a plebescite for a legal separation?

This is a phoney premise because the question was not about a TS-wide
plebicite deciding the fate of entire TS.  It was about plebiscite to
poll each community (cities, towns and villages) where they want to
belong.  Then if the vote along the current border chooses the other
side, the border could be shifted to include those communities in the
country of their choice.  This, of course, would still leave in Romania
the largest Hungarian bloc because it is not near the current border.

I don't see why the whole area we now call Transylvania (that now
includes all formerly Hungarian areas, not just the historic TS!) should
be treated as an all-or-nothing proposition as to where it should
belong.  That area in 1920 (and still now) contains plenty of smaller
regions where the Hungarians were/are the majority.  If
self-determination was really as much of a goal as we were told, those
Hungarian majority regions should not have been included in the
transferred territory.  For instance, in 1920 the Oradea and Arad
regions had Hungarian majorities. By now I am not so sure any more
because most cities have gone through a complete ethnic shift.

BTW, just to sooth your anxiety, I am quite aware that Romanians would
never consent and Hungarians could hardly force such plebiscites, so 
this is all just playing with scenarios.

Joe

On 14 Jul 1995  wrote:


> And I am not even talking about ceeding from Romania;
[But what if?..]
Would this be a good-enough reason why some Romanians might try to 
have those "feelings of paranoia"?  I guess it's like this:  some people have 
the 'oppurtunity' of calling it 'their' history, but others'll 'have to 
call it' being paranoid, ultra-nationalistic, etc.  Well, I think from 
what, eg, you imply, it's just logical to feel *"*"paranoid"" towards those 
specific people.

> only local autonomy.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander, no? 
> Joe
 
OK, Mr. Pannon, I believe in the same thing - local autonomy (i.e., not 
based on ethnicity!) - as I believe the majority of us do.  However - only 
on the language part - while hoping that I'm not going to sound/be 
hypocritical, do you really believe that every single ethnic Hungarian will 
have a job in those two(?) counties?  If not, what'll happen to the 
'unfortunate' ones?  Comparing to when they know enough Romanian to 
work in other parts of Romania?

And of course, I truly hope that the vice versa situation will 
eventually occur (ie., evolving from the "hi-bye" knowledge of the 
language), not only for the 'principle reason', but also for that 
economical one - the faster the transition from the 'ethnical' to the 
'economical', the better ;).

Bogdan.

Tisza Ensemble presents:

Special Concert & Tanchaz (Dance) w/ Me'ta Hungarian Folk Music Ensemble 
from Hungary, with guest artists: Be'la Halmos & Ka'lma'n Balogh

when: 		Wednesday July 19, 1995
		7:30 pm - 10:30 pm

where:		East Silver Spring Elementary School auditorium
		631 Silver Spring Avenue
		Silver Spring, MD 
		(off of Georgia Avenue in downtown Silver Spring)

admission:	$10

Join us for this very special event.  This is sure to be a great concert 
and dance.  (Please note: this event REPLACES the previously announced 
July 8, 1995 Tanchaz which was to be held at Starting Point Dance Studio 
in College Park, MD).

For further information, please contact Tisza Ensemble at (301) 847-1277.


Now more about Me'ta Hungarian Folk Music Ensemble w/ Special Guest 
Artists Be'la Halmos & Ka'lma'n Balogh

The Me'ta Folk Music Ensemble is one ot the best known musical groups in 
Hungary, Me'ta performs authentic as well as interpretive folk music.  
The Ensemble has toured throughout Europe and continues to be a major 
force in the folk music revival movement in Budapest.  Me'ta's primas is 
Bea'ta Salamon, the only female lead violinist and singer for any major 
folk group in Hungary.  The Ensemble has been awarded the coveted "Young 
Masters of Folk Art"  prize.  Me'ta's concert repertoire is always an 
exciting tapestry of traditional folk music from different regions of the 
Hungarian speaking territories and modern interpretations of traditional 
folklore.

Special guest artists enhance the versatility of Me'ta's first American Tour.

Be'la Halmos is a legendary performer and folk music researcher.  He was 
one of the founders of Hungarian folk music revival movement in the late 
1970's.  Ka'lma'n Balogh is simply the most amazing Hungarian cimbalom 
player today.  His previous visits to this continent garnered the highest 
critical acclaim.  Me'ta and Guests offer the most enjoyable experience for 
folk music enthusiasts.


Arpad Fabian Kovacs


--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

>>    (Illes Eszterhas)
 
DBrutus ) wrote:

: this group. I find the Hungarian position either badly argued or
: simply lacking in merit. Of course, this could be the self-serving
: justification of someone who is personally biased. but can anyone
: really doubt that if there would be a plebescite held today that
: the large majority of Transylvanians would vote again for union
: with Romania?

>>So sure? If I compare the GDP/person or the standart level of life
>>in Hungary and in Romania I do have some doubts.
>>Illes

Sure, and Hungary would vote to belong to Austria
(Isn't that why you are there  xx.at ?)
And the rest of Romania would vote to be part of Transylvania, and
Moldova as well, and we ALL are a happy family in the United EU.

Bring the champagne guys, Fuck Trianon ! Who cares !!!

Any Hungarian babe out there teaching the horizontal czardas ?

Adrian

 wrote:
: >    (Janos Szamosfalvi)  writes :
:  
: :       Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the
 
: : majority of the population was ethnic Romanian. 

: >But Romania also got some parts of Hungary proper where the majority of
: >population was not ethnic Romanian.

: Janos,

: Oh, yeah, the town "Pizdovar" ?
: Looks like you got that old tape from Panonescu and have been playing it
: over and over again and again.

: IT'S BOOOOOORRRIIINNNGGGG !
: IT'S BOOOOOORRRIIINNNGGGG !
: IT'S BOOOOOORRRIIINNNGGGG !

: Either that or you and him have been smelling each other farts far tooo
: long.

: How about if you guys stop cutting the "KASHKAVAL" for a change and
: let some fresh air come in.

I guess I touched a sensitive nerve....  ;-)

BTW, you didn't answer the issue I raised.

hargitai ) wrote:
:  (Alexander Bossy) writes:

: >	Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the 
: >majority of the population was ethnic Romanian.  

: By which date was Romania recognized as a state by international
: organizations?

	International orgnizations are a quite recent phenomenon.  
Moldavia broke free of Hungarian suzeranity in 1365.  Wallachia 
brooke free of Hungarian suzeranity in 1369.  These two states started 
mergining in 1857, when national assemblies voted unanimously for union.  
This was accomplished, despite Great Power resistance, by electing 
Alexander Cuza as Prince of Wallachia, and Prince of Moldavia.  The 
election of Cuza was recognized by the Powers and the Porte.  In 1862, we 
replaced the two national assemblies with a single assembly.  In 1866, 
despite Great Power interference (they wanted a native prince, we did 
not) we elected Prince Charles of Hohenzollern as our Prince.  He was 
confirmed by the Porte in 1866.

	[As an asside, neither Wallachia, nor Moldavia were ever Ottoman 
provinces.  After repeated wars with a much stronger enemy, they were 
eventually reduced to vassalage.]  The end of de facto vassalge was 
obviouly marked by the election of Alexander Cuza over Ottoman 
objections.  The formal end of vassalage was recognized by Italy in 
Decemberr 1879, and by the U.K., France and Germany on Feb 20, 1880.  The 
Red Cross is the earliest international organization that I know of.  I 
really don't know when the Romanian Red Cross was founded, though I'd 
expect that it would have been no later than the Second Balkan War.  
Romania was also a member of the League of Nations, which was the first 
political international organization.

: >The Western powers 
: >really don't give a damn who got there first.  The fundamental question 
: >is one of self-determination.

: The fundamental question was to bring about a new status quo. K&K
: no more. 

	The Hapsburg monarchy had already collapsed.  Neither Hungary, nor 
Austria, nor both of them in concert, were strong enough to keep the 
minorities - who constituted the majority - in subjugation any longer.  
The new status quo was already in existance.  The most that could have 
happened without outside intervention would have been for Austria and 
Hungary to remain in union.  Romanian and Italian union were already de 
facto achieved.  Czech, Polish, and South Slav independence was already de 
facto achieved.

: They cared about self-determination
: about as much as who got there first.

	Ever hear of President Willson, and his 14 points?  
Self-determination was one of them.  Who got where first wasn't.

: >Too bad that you think that is "much less 
: >noble" than Hungary's hanging on to as much territory as she could, never 
: >mind that the population of that territory did not want to live under her 
: >rule.

: I agree. Imperial dreams were/are hard to give up. 
: Moldavia? -):

	Bessarabia will only return to Romania by popular vote.  And, 
that vote will take place within the next two decades.  If you follow the 
situation there at all, you will know that there just was a massive 
strike against renaming the language "Moldavia" rather than "Romanian", and 
teaching "Moldavian" rather than "Romanian" history.  Once they finish 
escaping from the bear's embrace, the Bessarabians will vote for reunion, 
and Romania will take them back.  That is no more an imperial dream that 
was German reunification.  It is simple justice after 50 years of 
communist tyrany.  It remains the wish of all divided nations, just ask the 
Koreans.

	Alexander

>From:  (Fane Ziaristu) Thu, 13 Jul 1995
>Subject: Pannon's Weed

>I have read a lot of posts on this SCR, but I still can not figure out
>this Pannon guy. Has he gotten a Weed up his ass, or what? If there ever
>was a guy who needed a supository, Vlad Draculea style, this must be the
>best guinea pig. Maybe he can use the same one Oali did, it seemed to
>have helped. Somebody ought to give him a hand and get that weed out !
>Any volunteers?
>Yours truly,
>Fane Ziaristu

Here I am Zany Fany! Markus Malaria! Dorkus Delerius! I am the Greatest,
Most Famous Icon of Romanian Culture. I am Romanian diplomacy incarnate.
I am the vaunted Pole vault, snake-the-Stake. I am Romania's reply to all
non-Romanians in the world. It is the foreign policy suppository we shove up
the hole in everyone else's culture. Our culture is this Stake. It is
foundation on which everything in our culture is built. Onwards and Upwards.
We are such an advanced a culture that we had always believed in recycling so
we do not even wipe the fertilizer off the Stake before we shove it up the
steak of foreigners. Let us line our avenues and roads with Foreign Policy.

>Somebody ought to give him a hand and get that weed out!

Because you want to smoke it soooo badly, you want those concentric
circles and triangles dancing in your dome. It wasn't enough that your
mother dropped you when you were an ingrate, er uh, excuse me, infant and
you bumped your cute little head on the sidewalk causing little sparkles to
light up your brain, no, you gotta have that ganja up Joe Pandemonium's
Posterior, and smoke it like a Stalinist steel mill gone mad with quotas.
Oh but you're no Clinton, you inhale, enjoying Pannon's processed paprika.

The best part I like is that I can express my wit, humour, contempt, etc
publicly as myself. I don't have to hide behind the mini-skirt of anon-fi
like a knobby-kneed coward like you. 


****** for Joe Pannon **********
When you flush your toilet it drains into the Danube don't it? You can always
rest assured that bigiots (bigot+idiot) like Mark Cristian and his lover, the
infectious drag-queen Liviu Grigore, get their drinking water downstream from
your flush. Think about it next time you're all alone on your own on your
throne at your home.


-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

>Miha Ahronovitz writes,
>: Xenophobia is a form o phobia, which EB defines as follows:
>: The third day XAP sees THREE Jewish, Hungarians, gypsy, inuit,
bosnians...)

C. CondreAnus writes:
>Some of your lines are actually funny. Your enemies this time around
>seem to be minors that have gotten tired of the sex sites, and are now
>trying their hand at antisemitism and neo nazi BS.

Your senseless and cynical humour has a style highly similar to one of
your brother-Romaniacs on SCR -- Mark Cristian. It's as if you both
descended from the same intestine -- SuperSludge Slime.

>The new Romanian Legion has little to do with antisemitism these days,
>and frankly little concern of jews.

I guess there's not enough of them to stake anymore eh? Enough of them
murdered, and the rest sold, so why be concerned. Romania is becoming
more pure by the day.

>The nineties have brought some new, more valid and pressing concerns to
>Romania.

Oh yes let us now create a new day a new designer-dictatorshit!

>The upsurge of Hungarian nationalism,

Oh yes gotta keep them thar "bozgars" down where they belong.

>the escalation of Gypsy cheekiness,

Oh yes gotta keep them thar predators down under where they belong. Are
you gonna do to them what you did to the Jews in your previous
incarnation? 

>and most important, the challenge of overcoming the ban that was placed
>on our movement by a government which is communist, disguised as
>democratic.

Better that Romania should bear your disguise? Let me ask you -- to what
use would you put the Canadian-designed nuclear reactors at Cernavoda?

>Our concern is cleansing the heavy burden of filth that 50 years of
>communism have left behind.

Try a douche Corny Zipperhead Cod Clod

>"And dealing with any and all of these problems, is in no way
>xenophobia," he said unconvincingly. 

>The hostility that this stimulates in the stooges of foreign interests,
>even here on scr, is a reasurance that we are on the right track.

I'm gonna be a big stooge to you CodreAnus. I just LOVE insulting you and
covering you in the legacy of your past you spineless anonymous
jellyfish. I have been insulting you to my hearts content and not once
has any Romanian come to defend you brother. Whatever track you are on a
lot of Romanians share the hope of your derailment.

Capitanul
Capitanus
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (powermac-7) wrote:
>Miert nem magyarul irtok, elvegre magyarok vagytok renduletlenul!!!
>
>udv.      Ago

Ebben igazad van, de itt resztvesznek olyanok is, akik renduletlenul külföldiek
.
8-)))

In article >, powermac-7@lu
dat.lth.se (powermac-7) says:
>
>Miert nem magyarul irtok, elvegre magyarok vagytok renduletlenul!!!
>
>udv.      Ago


Hat igen, tudunk mi magyarul is, de az ekezetek hianya engem
pl. egy kisse zavar, amint a fentiekben emlitettem (your name
alatt . . .), csak a WordPerfect nevezetu szovegszerkesztonek
van meg minden megfelelo magyar maganhangzoja egy un. "multinational"
beturendszeben . . . Igaz, meg lehet szokni a magyar szoveget
vesszok-pontok nelkul is, de az is igaz, hogy sokan kozulunk
mar nagyon regen elnek kulfoldon (en pl. mar a harminchatodik
evement toltom az USA-ban, ugye), s ingencsak megszoktuk mar
a "masodik" anyanyelvunket (vagy talan mondhatnank az angolt
mostohaanyanyelvnek is . . . ?

Udv, Scheer Pista . . .

In article >
powermac-7,  writes:
>Miert nem magyarul irtok

Én szoktam magyarul írni, sőt az utóbbi időben ha magyarul
írok azt mindig ékezetesen teszem. Valahogy jobban esik.

Tamás (szintén PowerMac tulajdonos)

In article >,
 > wrote:
>     
>     NO DANUBIUS.
>     
>     YOUR NAME IS NOT JOE PANNON.
>     
>     YOUR NAME IS ION PANONESCU.

Why would a Romanian want to claim me, a denounced "hater" of Romanians,
as one of their own?  The natural inclination would be just the
opposite; disavow such a person even if he really is one of them.
A psychologist ought to have some explanation for this strange behavior.
My hunch is that it's just another symptom of poor self-image by
Romanians so often demonstrated by their irrational fears from a much
smaller neighbor.

Of course I would not want to exclude the possibility that this guy is a
total idiot.  But I do wish to give him the benefit of doubt.

Joe Pannon

Tisztelt Olvasok,

I'm posting this to get it off my chest. My though may or may not
relate to the subject of this newsgroup. I hope some of you will still
take a moment to consider the following and help me resolve this old
issue. I know i
t's a long shot, but an only shot.

I need to know, after 40-years of wondering whatever happened to my
little friends that I had attended school with in the mid 1950's. They
should all be between the ages of 47-48 now, as I am.
The sure thing is that we attended the Erzsebet utcai Altalanos Iskolat
in '54 qnd '55. We lived in the IV.ker. in Budapest, around Kossuth
Utca, Dobo Utca, Szetchenyi Utca, Some of their names were Farkas
Laszlo, Palinko
s Laszlo, Fulop Bela, Ban Bela, Hanesz, es a Pityuka aki a
M.N.D.SZ.-ben lakott a Damjanics utcaban. 

After all these years, I hope I might be able to see somebody that I
once knew when I visit in the near future. Give me a huss guys.... it's
been a long time for me.

Thanx,
Deak Ors

Janos Szamosfalvi ) wrote:
: Alexander Bossy ) wrote:

: : 	No, Joe, once again your grip of historical reality proves itself 
: : quite weak.  The Eastern Roman Empire only fell in 1453 when the Ottoman 
: : Turks sacked Constantinople.  The Magyars had arrived in the Carpathian 
: : Basin some half millenium earlier.

: I have never seen Byzantine referenced at this time as the "Eastern Roman
: Empire". 

	The Empire we call Byzantine never called itself anything but 
Roman.  Modern schollarship still does not agree when the Roman Empire 
became the Byzantine Empire: upon the division into Eastern and Western 
Empires?  The Founding of Constantinople?  Conversion to Christianity?  
Banning of Paganism?  Fall of Egypt and Syria to the Arabs?  Changing 
the official language from Latin to Greek.  Regardless of what dividing 
point you accept, they are all quite arbitrary.  The Byzantine Empire 
is the name by which we know the Roman Empire in the Middle Ages.

	Joe claims that self-determination of the peoples who live in 
what were once Hungarian provinces is less important than Hungarian 
territorial integrity circa 1200.  My response is that if territorial 
integrity is so much more important than self-determination, then the 
Kingdom of Hungary itself violated Roman/Eastern Roman/Byzantine 
teritorial integrity.  Consequently, the "wrong" of Hungarian statehood 
in the 1200's does not bring into question the "wrong" of Romania, 
Slovak, Croatian, or Yugoslavian statehood.

: : 	Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the 
: : majority of the population was ethnic Romanian. 

: But Romania also got some parts of Hungary proper where the majority of
: population was not ethnic Romanian.

	Since Romania was on the victorious side, she got all of the 
borderlands, and Hungary got none.  As a result, I'm sure that there were 
villages and towns on the border with Hungarian majorities that were 
incorporated in Romania.  But, the reason that Romania got them was 
because Romanians made the majority of the Transylvanian population, not 
because Romanians are decendant from the Romans and Dacians.  As far as 
the west is concerned, who got there first is absolutely irrelevant.  I 
don't here the English offering to return England to the Welsh and 
Britons.  I don't here the U.S. offering to return America to the 
American Indians.  Why should they hold different feelings when it comes 
to Romanians and Hungarians?

	Alexander

On 15 Jul 1995  wrote:

>  > wrote:
> >     NO DANUBIUS.
> >     YOUR NAME IS NOT JOE PANNON.
> >     YOUR NAME IS ION PANONESCU.

> Why would a Romanian want to claim me, a denounced "hater" of Romanians,
> as one of their own?  The natural inclination would be just the
> opposite; disavow such a person even if he really is one of them.

He is trying to help you, dummy ! Knowing how great it feels to be Romanian,
he hopes that 'adopting' you may aleviate your delusions and paranoia.

m.c.

In >  (Janos Sza
mosfalvi) writes:

>Alexander Bossy ) wrote:
>
>: 	Sure, Joe.  But, in our reality, Romania got Transylvania because the 
>: majority of the population was ethnic Romanian. 
>
>But Romania also got some parts of Hungary proper where the majority of
>population was not ethnic Romanian.

And other parts with a Romanian majority remained to Hungary.  So, what
was your point, if any?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >  (Alexander Bossy) writes:
>Moldavia broke free of Hungarian suzeranity in 1365.  Wallachia 
>brooke free of Hungarian suzeranity in 1369.  [...]

Moldavia and Wallachia under Hungarian suzeranity? I never heard of it,
were they not rather under Cumanian (kun) control? I seem to remember there
were ba'nsa'g areas only at South (modern Bosnia to Belgrad area), not at
South-East of Hungary? Surely not East of Olt river?
-- Olivier

***[Greetings from Hungarian-American HyperNews]***
  ***[       http://mineral.umd.edu/hahn/        ]***



The Magyar Olimpiai Bizottsag (MOB) is asking for
your financial assistance to help Hungarian participation
on the 1996 Olympic games in Atlanta, USA.

Please, send your donations to :

Magyar Olimpiai Bizottsag
U.S. Fundraising Office
P.O.Box 1996,
Garrett Park
MD 20896
(301)-949-5089

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article >
: powermac-7,  writes:
: >Miert nem magyarul irtok

: Én szoktam magyarul írni, sőt az utóbbi időben ha magyarul
: írok azt mindig ékezetesen teszem. Valahogy jobban esik.

Ez leginka'bb attol fu:gg hogy mennyi ideje vagy kint e's 
mennyit besze'lsz vagy olvasol magyarul.  E'n a'ltala'nos 
e's ko:ze'piskola'ban nagyon jo' szo'foso' voltam -- a magyar 
e'rettse'gin pe'lda'ul 12 oldalt irtam, majdnem ke'tszerannyit
mint az uta'nam ko:vetkezo" dia'k.  Sajnos azok az ido"k ma'r 
elmu'ltak e's mostana'ban ma'r sokkal konnnyebben e's gyorsabban 
tudunk irni Angolul annak daca'ra hogy valoszinu:leg to:bbet 
hiba'zok minthogyha Magyarul irna'k.  

Nameg az e'kezetek -- azt ma'r kifigura'ztam egy fe'lnapi veszo"de's
uta'n hogy hogyan lehet az e'kezetes betu:ket megjeleniteni, de 
me'g mind a mai napig nem tudtam ra'jo:nni arra hogy hogy tudom 
o"ket beu:tni.  (DECStation w/Ultrix + Tektronix Xterm's)

Joe, I had hped to get through all 22 backlogged messages
on this thread without having to respond. Looks like it 
was a forlorn hope.

From:  ()
>This is a phoney premise because the question was not 
>about a TS-wide plebicite deciding the fate of entire TS.  
>It was about plebiscite to poll each community (cities, 
>towns and villages) where they want to belong.  Then if 
>the vote along the current border chooses the other side, 
>the border could be shifted to include those communities 
>in the country of their choice.  This, of course, would still 
>leave in Romania the largest Hungarian bloc because it is 
>not near the current border.

Welcome to N. Ireland II, and III, IV, V, VI.

Of course after the vote, all the isolated pockets will use 
the results to call for independance. Or perhaps in the
closely contested areas, there will be wars between
ethnic romanians and ethnic hungarians to move into 
economically (and strategically?) valuable ground. Take
a look at what happened when the US allowed this sort
of thing to happen. People died.


In the tradition of Publius, Cato, and Centinel...
Decius Brutus

An invitation to participate in a thoughtful, constructive 
discussion regarding economic governmental intervention 

SHOULD GOVERNMENTS GOVERN THE MARKETS

Keywords * Political Economy, National Trade Policies, 
Economic Growth & Decline, Global Economy, 
nationalism, public policy, social factors and economy , free 
economy

Excessive Political maneuvering and intervention in 
otherwise self-sustaining economic systems remains one of 
the most significant obstacles blocking economic growth 
and natural societal evolution.

The gap between politically free, liberated economies and 
politically obsessed prisoner economies, as defined by 
varying degrees of political interference, is as wide as pacific 
ocean.

Today, disputes and debates within countries over state-
society relations concerning the economy spill over into the 
international arena and into national policies toward a more 
open global economy.
Within most nations with emerging market economies, 
mature markets and semi-dormant economies, the ongoing 
debate over how best to relate to the ever evolving global 
economy is causing exciting disputes.

Now, more than ever, nations are striving hard to reach a 
comfortable equilibrium between interference and absolute 
laissez faire.

The debate includes:  

open borders, 
free trade, 
formation of trading blocs, 
regional geo-economic blocs, 
export oriented industrialization, 
IMF and World Bank's economists push for extensive 
privatization and expenditure cuts,
small scale enterprise in open economy, 
open or closed door policy toward services, 
who should invest where, 
foreign investment vs. blanket nationalism, 
nationalistic fundamentalism, 
religious fanaticism, 
political liberties, 
individual freedom to conduct business, etc..

While in the 1990s most developed economies quietly drift 
toward post-industrial societies, industrialization and the 
gravitation to the global-marketplace, industrialization and 
markets are spreading around the globe placing severe 
stress on the political processes of nations pushing for 
reforms and foreign investments at the same time they are 
also struggling to keep oppressive political systems alive to 
control the public.
The public however , today enjoys more political and 
economic freedom, born of market liberalization and 
industrialization and to some extent wider spread of 
information net, resist the oppressive laws and systems 
which want full control over the market and their
political and economic freedom.

Many governments still take it for granted that foreign 
investment can corrupt the people,
however the truth remains that they are unable to manage 
the faster pace of growth created by massive investment and 
consequently control the people.
It is also notable that foreign investment does work as a 
driving force to motivate the otherwise dormant domestic 
investors.
Governments use a wide variety of hidden tactics to 
"domesticate" the "corruptive" effects of entrepreneurial 
spirit and non-political foreign capital investment.
  Among them are the following; nationalism, religion, caste, 
ethnicity, invisible tactics, old-values, fear of the unknown 
and Western culture, and decrepit ideologies 

Center for Global Trade Development [CGTD] -- an 
unaffiliated and independent organization -- monitors all 
countries and geo-economic areas. 

CGTD invites your views on the role of governments: on 
how governments should behave relative to business and the 
market economy, on the role of political parties and political 
machine in democratizing and freeing the economic system 
from political clutches, on the shift in political processes and 
how said shifts determine the market economy: on the 
deliberate disguise of populist movements to control 
burgeoning markets, etc..

Governments, laws and policies are devices formed by 
human beings seeking to solve  socio-economic 
problems...but are these devices turning against their human 
creators ?
Should the veil of religion, the invocation of God to explain 
events, anti-human laws, anti-business policies, and 
ideological dreamers with forceful but stagnant thought 
processes,
be separated from economic system and market ?

Markets are social institutions. Political machines can either 
crush markets through authoritarian rule that places duct-
tape over each mouth or the same political machine
can free the market and society to breathe on its own and to 
let people make it work.
Free-markets are said to be self-perpetuating mechanisms 
guided and sustained by independent entrepreneurs.  
In this context, can you write about a specific country you 
know well. If yes, do it now.
We will put your opinion across to the related people.

Please feel free to write on above issues modeling specific 
countries or geo-economic
areas.


All participants sending original views will be entitled to a 
free printed copy of a report soon to be published on these 
topics.
If you have a paper please send us a brief of it preferably by 
e-mail, which we'll try to include in the publication to be 
circulated widely and worldwide.

Please send your reply mail to          

Thanks and best regards
CGTD Research

PS: If you have a book-size papers to be considered for 
publication , kindly send a very brief summary/synopsis to