At 04:16 AM 2/6/96 -0500, Doepp James wrote:

>What it comes down to is this.  The burden of proof is on you.  We have
>seen what the market can do despite the
>distortions of ubiquitous government intervention;

Sorry to disagree James, but the burden of proof is on you.  Why don't you
tell us how an unfettered market, whose first and only interest is to
endlessly create capital, is going to lead to a better society?  And better
in what way, and better for whom?

You point to the 'market' success stories rather carelessly.

>There have been success stories - eg. Japan, Korea, Chile - which have
>not been equally matched by failures.

Oh really?  How successful were/are Guatemela, El Salvador, Honduras, Haiti,
Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, Brazil, Bangladesh, Philippines, Sri
Lanka, Thailand, Indonesia, Botswana, Egypt, Gambia, Mali, Zambia, Tanzania,
black South Africa, etc., etc., etc.?

As sure as there are Christian fundamentalists, there are economic
fundamentalists.  Of course, there are Marxist fundamentalists, and there
are free market fundamentalists.  Both groups are characterized by rigid
adherence to fundamental or basic principles.  From your previous posts,
James, I can only conclude that you are a free market fundamentalist.

The wellspring of your economic fundamentalist ideology is, no doubt,
Friedrich August von Hayek's, 1944 text, The Road to Serfdom.   Hayek
believed that increased government control would lead both to economic
decline, as state planning replaced the free market, and to the erosion of
personal liberty.  His solution was to restore economic growth by cutting
government spending and to get the state out of everything except perhaps
paving roads or guarding borders.

Hayek's theories are great if you believe that we were born to serve the
needs of the market.  However, if you believe, as I do, that human,
ecological, environmental, social, and perhaps even spiritual needs, are not
met exclusively by the free market, then Hayek has nothing to offer.

Late last year, I admired your willingness to disclose how little money you
made working as an economics prof in Hungary.  Now that I understand that
you're doing missionary work (of an economic kind), everything is starting
to make sense.

So James,  are you up to explaining how a free market will take us to
nirvana?  I think the onus of proof is on you and not on Durant.  After all,
the free market controls most of the world now.  Since this is the Hungarian
Discussion Group, maybe you can tell us how the free market has helped
Hungarians.  A simple request, really.

Joe Szalai

Hi!

I am looking for a good friend of mine from the mid 80-s: Misi Szekely.
He is an avid chess player. He lived in Holland, Belgium, Australia, then
back in Holland or Belgium. His wife, Iringo is an artist, and dughter
Gloria is in her early twenties. I worked with him in Saudi Arabia in
84-85. If some one knows him, and know how I can contact him, please let
me know.

Thanks,

Jozsi Udvarhelyi Hill

I'm new to the net, so please forgive both my naivete & intrusiveness.  I
spent 2 three month sessions with the Debreceni Csokonai Szinhaz and so...

>
> What it comes down to is this.  The burden of proof is on you.  We have
> seen what the market can do


That's your problem, you cannot see what the market
is incapable doing.  You cannot see the unsolvable
problems. And this is your burden you are not capable
facing.

> Why, Eva, did they fail?  What kind of specific propositions do you
> have to make that could be followed in the next attempt of socialism,
> that would 1. avoid the failures of the past 2. be an improvement over
> capitalism and 3. not create a system of socialist repression.
>

The main failure (umpteenth time) was, that the first democratic
structures (1917) were destroyed, and consequent revolutions
were meted out from the top, repressing all sponaineous
movement from the bottom, as the stateburocracy became strong.

If the taking over the power-structure happens by a democratic
grassroot way, there will be no role for a centralised
burocracy.  People now have the means (literacy, telecommuni-
cation) to control the organisations they organise.  And
they aware, how important is that the democratic control
is excercised.  They have an example NOT to follow.
It would be an incredible improvement. The first consideration
for production would be genuin need and environmental health.
These can be measured now via democratic and scientific
means. No overproduction. No waste.  But plenty enough
for everybody, on a higher standard than now, especially
if you count stuff like free eeducation, help, short/flexible
working hours, free art to create and to consume, etc.
All individuals will have a chance to develop to full
potential.

> I would like to hear your proposals for "the day after the
> revolution".  Specifically what would have to be done that would
> fulfill the above points?
>

The way I picture it, people will take over the local
workplaces and public places, and start to run the themselves,
dipping into information networks for any information and
resources.  E.g. factories/schools/sporcentres/etc will
be run by the people who work there, and people who are using
the products/facilities.  The administration as a job will be
cycled, with those who are particularily good at it/like it having
more responsibilities if the others so deem it fit. But this
is a fancy detail.   As the working hours will be much shorter, there
will be plenty of time to organise and participate. so everyone
will be able to do everything they like.  Working hours
could be halfed at the moment, if all unemployed had a chance to work
even if all unused capacities were used.


> There is also the problem of value that must be solved in creating a
> socialist system.  How would a socialist state determine how much of
> what would be produced, and at what price it would be sold?

The market place is totally useless to decide the real value
of things, not as commodities, but as necessary/unique things.
Think about it.
> are considered subjective.  You may, perhaps, agree with Marx (and Adam
> Smith and David Ricardo as well) that the value of a product is
> determined by the amount of labour that has been invested in it.  I

In capitalism. Where labour is a commodity.  Value has
a different meaning in a socialist system. Can you
think outside an old framework? Try. It will be necessary.
If not socialism, something else. Capitalism is failing.
Even capitalists can see that, on the quiet.
Eva

I'm forwarding this review which appeared originally in the list Habsburg,
devoted to the history of Austria and its successors since 1500.  This is
copying for educational, not-for-profit use, and copyright remains with
H-Net.  The author is Professor James Niessen.

The content seems directly related to many issues of concern to the readers
of this list.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew


----------------------------Original message----------------------------
  HABSBURG Reviews 1996/3                        February 7, 1996

          Regionalism, Education, and Romanian Nationalism

  Review by James P. Niessen, Texas Tech University, for HABSBURG
  >

  Irina Livezeanu. CULTURAL POLITICS IN GREATER ROMANIA: REGIONALISM, NATION
  BUILDING, & ETHNIC STRUGGLE, 1918-1930. Ithaca and London: Cornell
  University Press, 1995. xx + 340 pp. Tables, maps, illustrations, notes,
  bibliography, and index. $45.00 ea. (cloth).

  Studies of Romanian nationalism have focused mostly on their leading
  ideologists and political figures, such as the historian Nicolae Iorga and
  the founder of the Iron Guard, Corneliu Zelea Codreanu.  It is well known
  that their movements arose in the university milieu: Professor Iorga's
  before the First World War, and that of the student Codreanu in its
  aftermath.  In contrast, the work under review places the nationalism of
  the interwar period solidly into the context of the state's educational
  policy.  Of even greater interest for our readers, the author demonstrates
  that the challenge of integrating Romania's new regions (Bukovina,
  Bessarabia, and Transylvania) decisively influenced educational policy and
  how students responded.

    More than half of interwar Romania's population lived in the newly
  acquired territories, and more than one third in those annexed from the
  Dual Monarchy.  Romanians predominated in the new territories, but not in
  their cities or educated elites.  Livezeanu makes excellent use of the
  records of the Ministry of Education and the papers of its most
  influential interwar head, Constantin Angelescu, in documenting the
  "cultural offensive" that sought to centralize, Romanianize, and expand
  the school system.

    Also prominent in Livezeanu's account is the voice of
  Transylvanian educator Onisifor Ghibu, whose papers the author consulted
  in the home of his son in Bucharest.  As a member of Transylvania's
  Directing Council and then Professor of Education at Cluj University,
  which he had helped Romanianize, Ghibu fulminated in his voluminous
  published and unpublished oeuvre on the need to advance Romanian culture
  through education, but also to respect local particularities in doing so.
  I would add that Ghibu's selective opposition to centralized, forced
  Romanianization reflected not only his regional bias, but the thesis of
  his 1910 Jena dissertation on the German school system in Alsace-Lorraine.
  He argued therein that it was pointless to force an alien language of
  instruction upon a homogeneous minority environment.

    Local experiences bore Ghibu out.  For instance, the author writes that

    From the Romanian viewpoint...the linguistic balance in northern
    Bukovina did not swing quickly and decisively enough from Ukrainian to
    Romanian.  Although schools were massively Romanized on paper, many
    teachers could not actually speak the new language of instruction.
    (pp. 65-66)

  Similar difficulties were encountered in Bessarabia, where Ghibu
  participated in the first efforts to train Romanian school teachers even
  before the end of World War I.  Ghibu's testimony is most telling of all
  in the case of Transylvania.  As an official he disapproved of the
  nationalization of the Romanians' own church-run primary schools.  Fully
  aware of the vital role Romanian church schools had played before 1918, he
  campaigned vehemently against Hungarian confessional schools and religious
  orders, and indeed broke with his former mentor, Iorga, over the latter's
  acquiescence in the Concordat.  Livezeanu uses the term _Kulturkampf_ (pp.
  172, 299) to refer to the government's Romanianization campaign.  In one
  sense the analogy is helpful: as in Bismarck's Germany, the "culture war"
  served to galvanize the state apparatus in its work to consolidate the
  expanded country.  For the state, however, this was not a struggle against
  Catholics.  Ghibu would have liked it to become one.  In this instance at
  least, centralist Bucharest proved more tolerant than the Hungarian- and
  German- educated Transylvanian.

    Tables and graphs demonstrate the large numbers of non-Romanians
  in the leading cities of the newly acquired regions: most citizens of
  Cernauti/Czernowitz were Jews, Germans, Ukrainians, and Poles; most in
  Chisinau/Kishinev were Jews and Russians; most in the urban centers of
  Transylvania were Hungarians, Germans, and Jews.  Educational and economic
  levels tell a similar story: the rural and uneducated masses were
  primarily Romanian;  the pinnacles of society in the new territories were
  not.  The architects of Habsburg electoral geometry, of course, were well
  aware of this and planned accordingly.  Political incentives for educated
  Romanians to assimilate to the other nationalities disappeared after 1918,
  but the potential for cultural alienation seemed destined to remain
  because secondary and higher education were based in these urban centers.
  Romania cultural policy therefore directed special attention to the
  Romanianization of existing secondary schools and universities in the
  towns.

    The core of the book is the portrayal of the encounter between
  Romanians of rural origin and the urban educational environment.  An
  especially vivid evocation is from the pen of Ghibu, in which he recalls
  the anguish he experienced when his prewar Hungarian schoolmaster
  required him to exchange his peasant garb for bourgeois "German" or
  "European" clothes.  Happily, a photo in the book of a village family
  presents precisely this contrast.  Costume was far less an issue after
  1918.  Rural youth were hailed as the epitome and future of the nation,
  but were surprised to find well-prepared, relatively urbane Jewish or
  other minority fellow students over-represented in Romania's secondary
  schools and universities.  Bukovina officials' attempt to correct this
  imbalance in the baccalaureate examinations of 1926 led to riots and the
  murder of one of the Jewish protesters by a Romanian student.  After a
  heavily publicized trial in 1927, the jury acquitted the defendant after
  ten minutes' deliberation.  The director of an Orthodox seminary in
  Edinita, Bessarabia led an anti-Semitic demonstration by his pupils (who
  are shown in a group photo taken the same year) in support of the
  shooting-- for which he was applauded in the national parliament.

    The concluding chapters of the book home in on the immediate
  incubator of Romanian fascism, the universities and especially Iasi, site
  of both Iorga's and Codreanu's debut.  Although the University of
  Bucharest was by far the largest in the country and the cities of Cluj and
  Cernauti more varied ethnically, Iasi had its own special features.
  Romania's political left was ascendant in the immediate postwar years,
  especially in Iasi with its large Jewish population and student body and
  its still tenuous hold on Bessarabia threatened by Soviet Russia.  Some
  Romanian authorities regarded the numerous Jewish immigrants from the
  north as communist infiltrators instead of refugees from Russian pogroms.
  They considered it a national duty to open the university to Bessarabians,
  yet only one third of these were ethnic Romanians and nearly half were
  Jews.

    Codreanu's recourse to violence against Jewish organizations in
  1921-22 initially drew his expulsion from the university, but then his
  reinstatement by the law school and his emergence as an increasingly
  popular student leader by the time he left Iasi for studies in Germany in
  June, 1922.  Student anti-Semitism made its real breakthrough in the
  following years, through a nationwide wave of student strikes aimed at
  limiting Jewish enrollments (_numerus clausus_).  The murder trial of one
  of Codreanu's associates in 1924 (he was undoubtedly guilty) revealed the
  breadth of the movement's popular appeal by this time.  The government
  adjourned the trial once due to local sympathy for the accused, but the
  heavily publicized move to a town on the other side of the country still
  led to acquittal by the jury.  As in the Russia of _narodnaia volia_ or
  (some would say) the Los Angeles of 1995, the inconvenient jurors chose to
  make a political statement.

    The author argues that the new generation of nationalists grew out
  of the determination of the authorities to create a new Romanian elite
  that would bind the disparate parts of the country together; the radicals
  approved of the effort, but resented its slowness and the reluctance of
  the authorities to challenge international guarantees for the minorities
  more directly.  In his classic _Eastern Europe between the Wars 1918-1941_
  (1945; 3rd ed. New York: Harper & Row, 1967, p. 143), Hugh Seton-Watson
  wrote of the radical nationalists that "In Roumania the students were a
  simple instrument of the police."  Livezeanu was evidently unable to
  consult police files. But "simple instrument" is too strong because, as
  she demonstrates, the perceptions of many Romanians created their own
  social reality.  Still, the suspicion of some official complicity with
  extremists throughout the interwar period is difficult to refute.  The
  ultranationalists and their many influential intellectual supporters
  indeed contributed to the interwar integration of the nation; but their
  brief spell in the government in 1937 was a fiasco.  It would appear
  therefore that their "integration" took place largely outside the exercise
  of power: it was a "negative integration" such as Dieter Groh hypothesized
  for the Social Democrats of Wilhelmine Germany (_Negative Integration und
  revolutionaerer Attentismus_ (Frankfurt: Propylaen, 1973).

    This work provides a needed investigation of the regional and
  educational environment in which the new generation of Romanian
  nationalists was formed, on the basis of archives in Romania, France, and
  Israel as well as a strong selection of periodical and secondary
  literature.  It debunks Romanian assertions that the student movements
  were mostly leftist and devotes attention to the country's regional
  diversity that is too often lacking in such works.  Students of
  nationalism, nationbuilding, and education throughout East Central Europe
  will profit from this important study.

  Review by James P. Niessen, Texas Tech University, for HABSBURG
  >

           Copyright (c) 1996 by H-Net, all rights reserved.  This work
           may be copied for non-profit educational use if proper credit
     is given to the reviewer and to HABSBURG. For other permission,
     please contact >.

The point is, that they do non-essential work at home, when
they are in the mood, and than they can say, look, I've done
this. While washing dishes/cloths, general cleaning
is a continuous and necessery task, whether one is in the
mood or not, and you cannot show much for it... That's
why it is just not recognzed by others, who rarely have
to do it continuously, only "to help" occasionaly.

What I haven't mentioned yet, that the tradition is
still to measure the goodness/femaleness of a woman
by a clean and tidy house. Luckily this is changing.
My motto is: Clean enough to be healthy,
dirty enough to be happy...
Eva Durant


>
> The question is not to diminish the role of domestic labor but I ask what
> is the boundary. I mean, let's be honest, only recently does my father do
> a great deal of laundry, or sweeping. But then my mother didn't lay out
> the 100 ft by 75ft garden either. Now they (my folks) do both, much more
> equally. Food for thought.
>
> Darren

There was a similar posting a few months ago about
"helping" people to get th e permits to settle in
Canada.   It is an agency, moneymaking is involved
I suspect... not for the would-be immigrants!
Eva Durant


>
> Are you interested in legally moving and working in the United States?
> The United States Government has recently introduce a new program to
> allow people to immigrate to the  United States and get a Legal Green
> Card.  This program allows you to then become a citizen if you want to.
> This program is for a very limited (FEB. 12th, -  March 12, 1996)
>
> If you live  outside of the United States or know of someone who might be
> interested then please E-Mail me for additional information.
>
> 

In article >, 
(Dennis Perkins) writes:

> are
>there alternatives which better conform to my interest in Hungarian
>Theatre?

Oh, I don't know. I've witnessed some pretty good Hungarian theater here
since I subscribed.
Sam Stowe

If anyone has some info on the nyari iskola, please send it to me.  I'm
considering going this summer.

Koszi,
        Paul Gelencser

At 12:26 07/02/96 -0800, you wrote:
>At 01:22 PM 2/7/96 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:
>>I just wonder how many of you saw the new I.b.m.advertisng on T.V.Using an
>>elderley man and a younger woman holding a laptop IBM.Just like to know your
>>oppinion about it.
>>A.K.
>
>        I saw the second half of it. I was not impressed--or rather, I was
>somewhat horrified at the depiction of Hungary and the Hungarians in that ad.
>        Eva Balogh
>
Dear Andy and Eva and Listmembers -

I wondered if it was designed to illustrate the definition of a "ven trotty"
(did I spell it right?).

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Eva Durant wrote:

> The point is, that they do non-essential work at home, when
> they are in the mood, and than they can say, look, I've done
> this. While washing dishes/cloths, general cleaning
> is a continuous and necessery task, whether one is in the
> mood or not, and you cannot show much for it... That's
> why it is just not recognzed by others, who rarely have
> to do it continuously, only "to help" occasionaly.

I agree entirely, that most of the"social reproduction" (I will defend
this remark to the teeth, whether I am  Marxian or not) is done by women.
It ain't right, but hopefully newer generations of males (I get the
felling mine is a little better,,,but not by much)

>
> What I haven't mentioned yet, that the tradition is
> still to measure the goodness/femaleness of a woman
> by a clean and tidy house. Luckily this is changing.
> My motto is: Clean enough to be healthy,
> dirty enough to be happy...
> Eva Durant
>
I agree with you entirely, now if I could only de-socialize my wife whose
mother worked as a cleaning person in a nursing home in Kentucky for a
long time. I wish I could get her to come toward my standards.
Disorganized, yet, Dirty. Never

> >
> > The question is not to diminish the role of domestic labor but I ask what
> > is the boundary. I mean, let's be honest, only recently does my father do
> > a great deal of laundry, or sweeping. But then my mother didn't lay out
> > the 100 ft by 75ft garden either. Now they (my folks) do both, much more
> > equally. Food for thought.
> >
> > Darren
>
Eva, the question remain about defining what work is neccessary for
social reproduction. For my family, (two growing boys that ate like
crazy), that garden was a neccesity, and the boys in the family busted
our proverbial tails in that thing for more than 15 hours a week from
May-August (This is an average, taken from a journal I kept at the time).
Even with it our grocery bills were
higher than most of our neighbors. We needed firewood, so we got that and
hauled it in, split it, etc. This is a repetitive task as well. Does it
add up to that of clening, cooking, getting kids off to school? Not in
today's automated, world that many fo the listmembers live in. It does
beg the question of how we define that homework though.

I still agree with you, most men don't do housework and don't eat quiche.
let us hope my children will be inculcated with different expectations.

Darren

To Dennis:

You could try "soc.culture.magyar,"  and see if there is anything
interesting for you there.

Jason Szalai

Well!

It appears the newsgroup has found something of interest after all!  The
topic of political correctness has raised much debate in the last few
years, and it appears this newsgroup has its share of antagonists and
protagonists.

The question really at hand (which everyone seems to be missing) is
whether or not PC is useful in the modern age.  Let's get realistic,
folks!

The notion behind PC is that our current "morally decaying" language
negatively influences (among others) youngsters, which will subsequently
lead to their corruption in later life.  What we tend to forget, however,
is that it is the UPBRINGING of these individuals which will determine
how they behave in the future.  How can a difference in wording justify
difference in behavior?  One might consider, for example, the use of the
word "fag."  In England, this is reference to a cigarette.  To the best
of my knowledge, the incidence of "gay bashing" in England is not
substantially higher than it is here. I suspect that even if it is, it is
NOT because of its nation's smokers!  Note also how the common use
describing the act itself is "gay bashing" and not "fag bashing"  - My
question is:  Does using the politically correct term (gay) make the
notion any more acceptable?????????
It never ceases to amaze me that people can be outraged at a term such as
"killing two birds with one stone."  I have used this term quite often,
though I have never yet (and have no immediate plans) to kill any birds.
Am I deviant because I don't adhere to the hidden agenda?
This is also applicable to violence on television. I watched cartoons as
a child, but never once did I have the urge to blow someone skyhigh with
my ACME Dynamite.
When will people realize that language is continually evolving, and that
the introduction of PC (while not harmful) won't do anything to salvage
our sad state of affairs.

Jason Szalai

To: SHI_All
cc:
From: Darron Gross/SHI
Date: 02/08/96 11:44:42 AM
Subject: FYI - Virus Alert


    Subject: Virus Alert

SUBJECT:  VIRUSES--IMPORTANT PLEASE READ
IMMEDIATELY
      >>
There is a computer virus that is being sent across the
Internet.   If you receive an e-mail message with the subject
line "Good  Times",   DO NOT  read  the  message,
DELETE it immediately.  Please read the messages below.
Some miscreant is sending  e-mail under  the title "Good
Times" nation wide, if you get anything like this, DON'T
DOWN LOAD THE FILE!
It has a virus that rewrites  your  hard  drive, obliterating
 anything on it.  Please be careful and forward this mail to
anyone you care about.

*****************************************************
      >>
WARNING!!!!!!!  INTERNET VIRUS
The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a
matter of major importance to any regular user of the
Internet.
Apparently a new computer virus has been engineered by a
user of AMERICA ON LINE that is unparalleled in its
destructive capability.  Other more well-known viruses such
as "Stoned", "Airwolf" and "Michaelangelo" pale in
comparison to the prospects of this newest creation by a
warped mentality.
What makes this virus so terrifying, said the FCC, is the
fact that no program needs to be exchanged for a new
computer to be infected.  It can be spread through the
existing e-mail systems of the Internet.  Once a Computer is
infected, one of several things can happen.  If the computer
contains a hard drive, that will most likely be destroyed.  If
the program is not stopped, the computer's processor will be
placed in an nth-complexity infinite binary loop - which can
severely damage the processor if left running that way too
long.
Unfortunately, most novice computer users will not realize
what is happening until it is far too late.  Luckily, there is one
sure means of detecting what is now known as the "Good
Times" virus.  It always travels to new computers the same
way in a text email message with the subject line reading
 "Good Times".  Avoiding infection is easy once the file has
been received - not reading it!  The act of loading the file  into
the mail server's ASCII buffer causes the "Good Times"
mainline program to initialize and execute.

The program is highly intelligent - it will send copies of itself
to everyone whose e-mail address is contained in a
receive-mail file or a sent-mail file, if it can find one. It will
then proceed to trash the computer it is running on. The
bottom line  here is - if you receive a file with the subject
line "Good  Times", delete  it immediately!   Do not read it.
Rest assured that whoever's name was on the "From" line
was surely struck by the virus.  Warn your friends and local
system users of this newest threat to the Internet! It could
save them a lot of time and money.

      ----- End Included Message -----

> On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Andy Kozma wrote:

> > I just wonder how many of you saw the new I.b.m.advertisng on T.V.Using
an
> > elderley man and a younger woman holding a laptop IBM.Just like to know
your
> > oppinion about it.
> > A.K.
> >
and Darren commented:
> I don't know if the Hungarian was correct, but I understood the ad in
> Hungarian. Why the heck was there a monkey in it?

> Darren

Somebody had to show interest in an IBM laptop.

Regards,Jeliko a Winbook XP user.

This alert, as well as its debunking, has had many rounds already.
The warning is a hoax apparently released by some AOLuser (or students
trying to lower that provider's reputation lower still ;-(). THERE IS NO,
REPEAT *NO* SUCH THING as the "Good Times" email virus. Please do not
spread this fake amy further! There is a FAQ on this at
<ftp://usit.net/pub/lesjones/good-times-virus-hoax-faq.txt>.

 THE "GOOD TIMES VIRUS" ALERT IS A HOAX! Really!

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

John_Czifra @ SHI.COM (John Czifra) @ SMTP fowarded....
>   Subject: Virus Alert

> SUBJECT:  VIRUSES--IMPORTANT PLEASE READ
> IMMEDIATELY

This is a hoax, the message itself is the virus. Except for a few rare
exceptions, (if you want details EMAIL me) there is no way you can contract
a virus by reading EMAIL

GarryC.


############################################################################
# Better a dry crust                    # Internet:        #
# with peace and quiet,                 # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting,        # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
# with strife.           Proverbs 17:1  # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################

>>At 01:22 PM 2/7/96 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:
>>>I just wonder how many of you saw the new I.b.m.advertisng on T.V.Using an
>>>elderley man and a younger woman holding a laptop IBM.Just like to know your
>>>oppinion about it.
>>>A.K.
>>
>>        I saw the second half of it. I was not impressed--or rather, I was
>>somewhat horrified at the depiction of Hungary and the Hungarians in that ad.
>>        Eva Balogh
>>
>Dear Andy and Eva and Listmembers -
>
>I wondered if it was designed to illustrate the definition of a "ven trotty"
>(did I spell it right?).
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne
>
>Johanne L. Tournier

        You spelled it all right! I am still laughing. The only consolation
about this ad that all others are about as stupid as this one: all the
stereotypes you can imagine--whether it is Spain, France, or India.

Eva Balogh

Jo napot kivanok,

Eva Balogh wrote:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Janos Czifra has an interesting notion about Hungarian reality. All those
chickens, pigs, cows, and so forth which are being tended by the man of the
house. Time to wake up: Overwhelming majority of the population live in cities.
        Eva Balogh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It's true that many live in the cities. That's another story. Let's see, the
way I remember the city life for males and females (I have plenty of relatives
in Hungary that moved from the city to a more rural setting) was that they'd
both come home from work change clothes and they'd split off. One would go to
the piac, while the other would go to the ABC. Then one would try their hand at
battling people at the hentes (butcher). I've taken part in this ritual and let
me tell you that it's not fun at all. You can literaly spend hours looking
around in the piac (for lack of a better term: flea market) for the right price
on tomatoes, paprika, or what have you. The latest trend is that truly
Hungarian concept of the Vikend Haz (this how I've seen it spelled). The
Weekend House is basically a plot of land out in the suburbs with a little
cabin like dwelling on it. Very simple and very basic, depending on the money
spent. If you add this to picture, then there's more responsibility, but it
beats paying outrageously high prices for veggies in Hungary. With all that
going on, is there any time for a male to be sexist, in Hungary?? I don't
really see it, maybe I'm wrong. The workplace is probably a different story,
which I don't know about.

Also, on the domestic front: I think the women's role as head domestic (in
Hungary) in the household is just engraved in their minds. There's no way out
of it. My family is dominated by women. 90% of my cousins are women and girls.
I always bring suits, knowing that we'll be painting the town red. I don't like
anyone to iron my stuff. When I stay at  my uncle's house I go to iron my
clothes, and they (the women) think I'm absolutely nuts. They push me aside and
start doing it. I can't win against 3 women (18, 19, & 22  respectively). When
they do let me iron my stuff (a rare moment indeed) they sit and watch like it
was an episode of National Geographic on PBS. All I'd need is David
Attenborough to do the commentary. It's a great laugh for them and they'll dig
through their drawers and throw ladies undergarments at me to iron. So, I don't
think they give a hoot about the women's role thing or that it doesn't phase
them, since they been accustomed to it.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi

Reply to:   RE>FYI - Virus Alert
This is not true.  This so called "virus" scare began in the  states in last
October.  This is only a rumour.  There is no such virus.  The biggest "virus"
is this warning being sent around be people who think there is a virus.

Hi!

I'm sorry for the mayhem my post created. I received the post this morning (NJ)
from our outside sales rep in Austin, TX. He received this post from Borland
International (makers of Paradox), which they sent to various software
resellers, vendors, & distributors (us being one of them). I never heard of the
"virus" myself and deemed it important enough to send out, since Borland
International was scared by it.

Once again, sorry!!!

Thanks,
John Czifra

>If
>the program is not stopped, the computer's processor will be
>placed in an nth-complexity infinite binary loop - which can
>severely damage the processor if left running that way too
>long.

You know, it's like the silicon junctions wear out due to too much torque.
What is even more frightening is the possibility of quantum errors being
introduced
into the symbol-manipulating capability of the processor and as such, the
Virus(TM)
might go through Darwininan evolutionary selection/perfection and then The End
of
World is Nigh(TM) and immediately afterward Rupture2000(TM) hits and then...
we will see The AntiChrist of Redmond in his full glory and then only the
chosen
144,000 will be taken to the Heavens...

Orderly, could you bring my yellow-red medication, please?

Andras

On Thu, 8 Feb 1996, Dennis Perkins wrote:

> I'm new to the net, so please forgive both my naivete & intrusiveness.  I
> spent 2 three month sessions with the Debreceni Csokonai Szinhaz and so...
> .
>
> My question is: is this solely a political/semantic newsgroup and/or are
> there alternatives which better conform to my interest in Hungarian
> Theatre?  This is the only Hungarian related group that I've managed to
> find.
>
> Dennis E. Perkins
> -
>   DENNIS E. PERKINS  
>

How the Csokonai doing these days?  Reports from Debrecen complain
bitterly about the cost of living.  Who can afford theatre tickets?

Did you happen to hear anything about the theatre in Kosice (Kasa), which
apparently has been merged with a Slovak theatre group?

Richard Alexander

I'm new to this game - this is my first message.  Be gentle with me!

I've been reading the ongoing debates over the last two days with =
interest (sometimes!)...good to see a diversity of opinion!  Luckily, =
this forum creates physical separation!

I'm something of a novice to Central and Eastern European market economy =
[r]evolution stuff - but am fascinated by it nonetheless.

Can anyone direct me towards some background reading on the subject, =
either on List Hungary or elsewhere?  Facts first, opinions second!

Having said that, I'm about to launch into my opinion!

This is probably extremely naive, but I've always thought that Hungary =
(probably more than the other Central European nations) is in a unique =
position to develop a new way forward - taking the best from socialism =
and free markets, if that's possible, and developing a 90's =
socio-economic regime which is an improvement on both the drawbacks of =
socialism and of purist capitalism.  A nice thought.  My initial view =
however is that whilst most people would accept any reasonable system ab =
initio,  innate human self-interest and greed - to be frank - amongst =
those that matter raise the game so that others have to play by the =
harshest rules set by the influential minority.  This means you can't =
have half a market economy, the "nice guys" tend to get pushed out - =
over-achieving, if you like, is the result.   Equilibrium is at the =
sharp end.  Likewise, you can't have half a socialism - the same factors =
tend to result in people under-achieving.  Digression to the mean?  =
Something like that.  So does that mean it is all or nothing?

The trick must be to take a long term view.   This requires some degree =
of managed intervention.  Short-termism - it seems to me - will always =
result in greed pushing the system away from ideal equilibrium.

Anybody got any comments?

Bruce

In article >, "Joseph U. Sharon W. Hill"
<http:>; says:

>I am looking for a good friend of mine from the mid 80-s: Misi Szekely.
>He is an avid chess player. He lived in Holland, Belgium, Australia, then
>back in Holland or Belgium. His wife, Iringo is an artist, and dughter
>Gloria is in her early twenties. I worked with him in Saudi Arabia in
>84-85. If some one knows him, and know how I can contact him, please let
>me know.

I heard of a chessplayer called Szekely living in England a few years
ago, but never met him. I'll ask around and let you know what I find.

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
Independent Commodore Products Users Group * Commodore=64 stuff wanted
*********** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list ***********

84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful,
small apartment house of Budapest' s exclusive Rozsadomb disrict
(Nagybanyai Street) is for immediate sale. It features telephone,
garage, hardwood floor and gas central heating. Easy access to the
city: downtown is just a short, convenient 15-minute ride by public
transportation. If you are interested, please send an E-mail to
.


--
/-------------------------Feri Zsuppa'n Ph.D.--------------------------------\
| Offc. of the Dean in Arts and Sciences  Email:       |
|      and Department of Economics                       |
| POB 90097,Duke Univ.,Durham,NC 27710    Voice:919/660-1844,Fx:919/684-8974 |

At 07:59 AM 2/8/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>In article >, 
>(Dennis Perkins) writes:

>> are
>>there alternatives which better conform to my interest in Hungarian
>>Theatre?

>Oh, I don't know. I've witnessed some pretty good Hungarian theater here
>since I subscribed.
>Sam Stowe

Sam's right.  So stick around Dennis.  You'll quickly see that the world is,
indeed, a stage, and we're all actors.  We've learned our lines to varying
degrees of accuracy.  Some of us without scripts have had to improvise.  But
the real sad part of this play is that there are too many extras who don't
say anything.

Joe Szalai

At 09:53 AM 2/8/96 -0500, Jason Szalai wrote:

>The question really at hand (which everyone seems to be missing) is
>whether or not PC is useful in the modern age.

You have no interest in the question.  You only pose it to inform us that
you think that being politically correct is useless in the modern age.  Last
month you told us that you had no use for feminism in Hungary or anywhere.
Is something troubling you?  Are there too many conspiracies in the world?

>The notion behind PC is that our current "morally decaying" language
>negatively influences (among others) youngsters, which will subsequently
>lead to their corruption in later life.  What we tend to forget, however,
>is that it is the UPBRINGING of these individuals which will determine
>how they behave in the future.

You're not in early childhood education.  Are you?  UPBRINGING!!??
UPBRINGING!!??  Some of us are lucky not ever to go beyond the upbringing
stage.  Unlike you, we never stop learning!  The downside for us is that we
may never reach 'the modern age', that golden human condition when
everything seems to be 'alright'.

>How can a difference in wording justify
>difference in behavior?  One might consider, for example, the use of the
>word "fag."  In England, this is reference to a cigarette.  To the best
>of my knowledge, the incidence of "gay bashing" in England is not
>substantially higher than it is here. I suspect that even if it is, it is
>NOT because of its nation's smokers!  Note also how the common use
>describing the act itself is "gay bashing" and not "fag bashing"  - My
>question is:  Does using the politically correct term (gay) make the
>notion any more acceptable????????

That's a nice story and I don't want to bring you down, but since when is
'bashing', a notion.  I guess that in your 'modern age', the idea of
equality for women, or just the idea of equality, is just a 'notion'.  It's
just an irritating little thorn in your side.  And you're the one who wrote,

>Let's get realistic, folks!

Indeed!!  Let's.

Joe Szalai

The Feb. 5, 1996 Hungary Report 1.36 (http://www.isys.hu/hrep/) had this item:

>PLANS TO LEGALIZE PROSTITUTION IN HUNGARY ARE UNDERWAY by the
>Interior Ministry. The plans stipulate that prostitutes must be
>registered as private entrepreneurs. If approved, local governments
>will issue the licenses and prostitutes will  have to carry a valid
>certificate of health.

Would this law legalize both female and male prostitutes?

Joe Szalai

At 06:14 AM 2/7/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>Hungarian content -- Still waiting on the inevitable rant about the
>perfidy of the U.S., France and Britain in the negotiations leading up to
>Trianon.

I can't get into a rant about Trianon.  It happened before I was born and
I've only known Trianon as history.  However it seems to have contributed to
Hungarian pride and folklore.  You'll often hear Hungarians boast about
Hungarian accomplisments in sports, the arts, medicine, etc.  And rightfully
so!  What I don't understand is the constant reference to the fact that
Hungary is a small country and yet it can accomplish such greatness.  I
guess the inference is that if Hungary would be large, pre-Trianonian, then
it would be the best nation in the world.  The sentimentalism of the Trianon
legent lends itself to a rather pessimistic nation.

Many Hungarians display pre-Trianon maps of Hungary.  No doubt their hope
and dream is to see Hungary as large as it once was.  Although their concern
for Hungarians in Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia is real and justified, I
often get the feeling that they would be quite happy if those areas were
reunited to Hungary.

We've seen the results of the 'great Serbia' dream.  From an Hungarian
cultural perspective, I think the best that can be is to see thriving
Hungarian communities in Romania, Slovakia and Serbia.  Leave the borders as
they are.

Joe Szalai