Hungarian born, Canadian businessman-accountant   will travel to Budapest
during the summer,1996 for three weeks.

   Will take on assignments to look for business opportunities,  do
investment and business evaluations and audits.

--
Robert Gelb, Robert Gelb and Associates Inc.
12 Bradenton Drive,Willowdale,Ontario M2H 1Y5, Canada
(905)940-2380, (905)946-1734 FAX
e-mail: 
- Investment Specialists
- Business Plan Preparations and Evaluations,                           -
Business Management and Financial Consulting
- Mergers and acquisitions

Hi, Sam!  -

At 17:25 31/01/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>To E.Balogh and S.Stowe,
>
>as I am not an expert in History and my knowledge on WWI is limited,
>I have to except what Eva (and Sam) wrote.
>
>Janos

It seems obvious to me that Janos meant "accept" and not "except" - if he
had really intended the latter, he would have continued with the reasons why
he was "excepting" your argument.

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Alan,

       Please send me your e-mail address that I can send you some
    info. The one you have given in your  message does not seem to
    work, my info came back.
                               Amos

At 11:25 PM 3/11/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 12:47 AM 3/11/96 -0500, Martha S. Bihari wrote:
>
>>There is not an iota of contradiction between fiscal responsibility,
>>accountable government AND humanitarianism!
>>                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>The above are the things Eva advocates.  I can't find anything wrong with >it
.
>
>Martha, do you get a different version or edition of this list?  You must.
>I have seen Eva Balogh advocate fiscal responsibility and accountable
>government.  I have not yet seen her advocate humanitarianism.  Being in
>favour of women's and gay rights, and being opposed to anti-semitism,
>although admirable, are not signs of humanitarianism.

        What can I do. I am just not humanitarian.

        Eva Balogh

Just what is so different about SzDSz policies?
Could someone inform me what is the political
difference  indeed between MSzP, MDF, SzDSz
and FIDESZ (If exists)? They all want
capitalism with integration in Europe.
If in opposition, than they want it to be done
in a miraclous socially acceptable way.
The details of tax/privatization level etc.
vary according to which "side" of each party one looks at.
Am I very wrong?
Eva Durant

Hi!

I am a french journalist and work for the magazine Idol. We aim to publish
a special issue on the gay touristic resorts all over the world. In this
view, I would be very grateful to anyone who could give me some info on
the gay life in  Budapest.

Be so kind. Give me some news!! And be welcome in Paris...

Olivier Razemon

Reply to:   RE>>FAMILY HISTORY

part 4.

        Meawhile, George Allen, Dean of the Forestry Faculty at the U.B.C.,
along with the director of Power River Company rushed to Vienna to expedite
matters. Cox, in Vienna, brought them together with the Soproners. He
arranged for their return flight with the advance party. He also found room
on the Empress of Britain for the Soproners for a January departure from
Liverpool.   On December 10 the Canadian delegation could proudly tell the
United Nations' General Assembly that the entire teaching staff and student
body of a Hungarian school of forestry had asked for asylum in Canada, and
were being adopted by  the University of British Columbia and that a
further 250 students from the University of Sopron and many other students
wish to move en masse to Canada.

        Pickersgill remained at the center of action. He instructed Gordon
Cox to arrange for the earliest possible movement to Canada of three or
four professors and/or students of the mining and related departments of
Sopron University elected by the professors and students as their
spokesmen. He wired Fortier to arrange visits to the Universities of
Toronto, Manitoba and Laval. He also asked Fortier to keep down the flow of
other Hungarian refugees to British Columbia so that the families of the
forestry professors can be looked after in Vancouver with the limited
facilities available.  Once back in Canada, Pickersgill kept up the pace.
The National Conference of Canadian Universities was invited to participate
in the processing of the students. Fortier was told to ask Dr. F. Stiling
of the N.A.C.C.U. in London, Ontario, whether the National Conference would
determine the qualifications of individual Hungarian students and direct
them to the Canadian universities that were willing to admit them.
Pickersgill urged his deputy to act quickly as there were 2,000 students in
Vienna according to the Canadian embassy there and these students have had
many offers from other countries. "The Minister [Pickersgill], just
returned from Austria, gave instructions to our officials to encourage as
many of them to come to Canada as possible," noted Fortier.   Pickersgill
meanwhile told his Director of Immigration, C.E.S. Smith, to advise Vienna
to issue visas on sight to any student in Vienna or in camps who apply for
a Canadian visa.

        In Vienna, the most enthusiastic supporter of the Hungarian refugee
movement program, Gordon Cox, was hard at work. He began booking January
flights for students. About a 100 engineering and mining students were
assembled in a camp in Vienna for an early departure to Canada.   Cox
planned to put the Faculty of Forestry along with 850 Hungarian refugees
destined for Toronto on the ship Arosa Star .   Students in Vienna who
wanted to go to Canada signed up with Charles Taylor of  the Canadian
branch of W.U.S., who then put them in touch with Cox. Taylor registered
about 500 Hungarians in 1956. Cox hurriedly arranged transport. He was in
"competition" with the provincial governments of Germany who were taking
quite a few advance students  offering them free tuition and $30 a month to
cover room and board. Cox could only make vague promises -- which were
unauthorized and without substance.   Despite the efforts of Pickersgill,
Cox and Taylor, Canada was not able to recruit many students. Canada
received only 24 students per thousand Hungarian refugees while Austria
took 129, Germany 90 and France 83 (see Table No. 2.). Canada had a late
start because the politicians could not see the opportunity offered in
time. The first wave of refugees consisted of young men and women. Many of
them were students. By the time Pickersgill arrived in Vienna, families
were pouring across the border and the students who arrived to Austria
between November 4 and December 2 had been offered scholarships by German
and other recruiters.

        On December 25 the two members of the Forestry group had returned
to Austria from their visit to Vancouver and described their findings to
the Soproners at Ferienhort. A few found their report discouraging and
decided not to go to Canada. Two days later the camp  at Ferienhort was
closed.  Once Canada guaranteed to accept them, the Soproners were moved to
the refugee camps at Hellbrunn and Rositten, near Salzburg, where they were
reunited with the students who were released from internment. Now they
numbered 570 persons



Table No.2.
Hungarian Refugees College Students
country Hungarian refugees       students       s/HR
        1960    October 1957

Argentina                    1,340      29       2.2%
Austria                         9,510   1224    12.9%
Belgium 5,040   306     6.1%
Brazil  1,870   15-20   1.1%
Canada  39,650  958     2.4%
Denmark 950     39      4.1%
England 13,670  550     4.1%
=46rance  8,110   670     8.3%
Germany 14,400  1,300   9.0%
Holland 2,760   117     4.2%
Italy*  120     103     85.8%
Norway  1,570   70      4.5%
Sweden  7,080           350     4.9%
Switzerland     10,480          480     4.6%
United States   44,070          1,726   3.9%
Venezuela       890             4-6     .7%

* Original number of Hungarian refugees arriving in Italy in 1956/57:
4,090. The 103 students taking university courses constitute 2.5% of this
sum.


        On 29 December 1956, a train with a party of 191 Hungarians left
Vienna via Salzburg for Liverpool where they would embark for Canada. In
Salzburg the Canadian immigration authorities took their fingerprints,
immunized them against various diseases, and supplied them with temporary
visas. When these officials accidentally omitted twenty Soproners from the
list of train passengers and gave their seats to other Hungarian refugees,
all the Soproners refused to board the train until they were reassured that
the small group would soon follow them. Local Red Cross officials met the
train at Liverpool. While the New Year was being rung in, the Hungarians
embarked for Canada on board the luxury liner, the Empress of Britain.

                On December 28, 1956, the Technical Group, after accepting
the invitation of the University of Toronto and the Canadian Mining
Association, traveled from their camp near Lake Wolfgang to Salzburg.
After a  trip on the Orient Express they arrived in Paris early in the new
year on January 5 and were taken immediately to Le Havre. The next day they
embarked on the Columbia, an old Canadian troop carrier of World War Two
vintage. For some reason the ship's captain denied passage to six students.
The Hungarians protested in vain.  They had to set sail without them but
their  telegram to Cox in Vienna brought results. The six students were
later flown to Toronto, where eventually they reunited with the group. In
the early morning of January 15, 1957, the troop carrier arrived in Canada,
docking at the port in Halifax, Nova Scotia. They soon departed by train
for Montreal.

                While the students and professors were getting ready to
move to Canada their reception was  organized. Fortier continued his
efforts  to bring some of the students to a Quebec university. The Rector
of Laval University informed him on December 10 that he had made tentative
arrangements for housing the Hungarian group. He offered to send
immediately his representatives to Austria adding: "English-speaking Canada
has been given opportunity to do its share through U.B.C. French Canada
would welcome similar opportunity."   On the same day Fortier sent three
telegrams to his boss, who was now in London on his way back to Canada,
informing him that the Prime Minister's office had received strong
representations from Laval University. They wished to host the 175 students
and staff from Sopron University and invited the Sopron delegation to visit
their institution before they made up their minds about locating. Fortier
pressed Pickersgill to act promptly. In his third communication he informed
the minister how pleased Cardinal L=E9ger was on learning that the Hungarian
immigrants, including students, who will first go to France before leaving
Europe for Canada will be learning French during the winter months.  This
was indirect pressure on behalf of Quebec. Pickersgill, however, was not
ready to commit himself to Laval, although they had one of the best
equipped mining schools in Canada. At Laval the lectures were given in
=46rench but the textbooks were in English -- an extra difficulty for any
third-language immigrant. "Tell Laval," Pickersgill wired Fortier, "that
their university will be considered by the visiting Hungarian delegation
along with the offers of other institutions."   It seemed that the matter
had already been decided in favour of Manitoba. Very few of the Hungarian
students could speak French and most of them wanted to learn English and
continue their studies in English. Pickersgill's decision was a practical
one.

        Chancellor Victor Sifton of Winnipeg had responded promptly to
Pickersgill's emotional appeal and invited the complete Sopron Technical
Group to Winnipeg where he said they could continue their studies
uninterrupted.  The Technical Group with some haughtiness accepted the
Manitoba offer  with this proviso: unless something even more enticing came
from other Canadian universities.   For Manitoba the difficulty was that
this group of professors and students, unlike the Forestry School, did not
represent a complete self-contained faculty.  To solve the staffing
problem, the group invited a number of North American professors of
Hungarian origin  to join them in Canada.   Sifton further suggested that
the gap existing in the faculty be filled by other qualified Hungarian
refugees as well. He requested  Fortier to have Hungarian senior professors
flown to Winnipeg while he established local liaison with Immigration.
Victor Sifton must have been amazed when he received a letter from the
Sopron Technical Group that estimated the cost of the balance of the
students' education at one and a half million dollars including full
scholarship for all students for the next five years. Then the Chancellor
made a reasonable proposition. He offered to employ all twenty of the staff
reported to be available and pay them  regular salaries. The University
promised to  keep all members of the Hungarian faculty employed until  May
1960. Instruction of students was to be in Hungarian and the students would
receive a "special" degree from the University of Manitoba.  Manitoba
offered to provide room and board, text books and incidental expenses until
December 31, 1957, with the exception of the summer vacation period. From
the income of their summer jobs the students could pay normal fees for the
1957-58 session and pay their living costs from January 1, 1958, until May
1958. In cases of hardship,  Sifton also offered student loans and
assistance to find suitable summer employment for a maximum number of 200
students.   Then Manitoba suddenly had a change of heart. The University
discovered that  the Hungarians could not provide enough faculty. The
University of Manitoba would not absorb the students as a group into
regular classes.  The Technical Group, however, was already on its way and
expected to arrive on January 14. But where? Pickersgill had to find a
solution.

        Dean P.R. Gendron of the University of Ottawa expressed some
interest in the Sopron mining and oil group. The president of the
University of Alberta offered financial aid, assistance in finding
employment, instruction in English and special welcoming courses. The
Ontario towns of Niagara Falls, Haileybury and Timmins, the Nova Scotia
Technical College, the University of Montreal, and McGill University also
wanted to have some of the Soproners.   The most attractive offer came from
the University of Toronto. There was, however, little time to negotiate all
the offers and the Soproners accepted the latter's offer.

        Imre Bernolak, a representative of Immigration, went to Toronto on
December 26 where he had a strategy session with the advance party of the
Technical Group. Together they met with Pickersgill  at the local Hungarian
Engineers' Club to prepare the meeting with Dr. S. Smith. The president of
the University of Toronto came with good news on the 28th. The
industrialist R.A. Bryce, representing the  mining industry,  had agreed to
provide funds to meet the costs involved in the settling of the Sopron
Technical Group until June 1958.  The students were to be quartered
together for the next five months to take concentrated English instruction.
They would then be employed for three months during the summer by the
various mines and oil companies. The estimated cost was $200,000. After
evaluating the qualifications of the students, it was decided that the
Hungarians were to study at least two additional years to compensate for
language deficiency and differences between the Canadian and Hungarian
educational systems. Staff members were to be judged on an individual basis
and, if qualified, employed  at their appropriate levels by the University
of Toronto. In addition, Dr. Smith promised to take an additional 25
Hungarian refugee students who were not part of the Sopron Technical Group.
He offered accommodations and bursaries for the Hungarians. Funds were
already available for twenty students.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

At 12:49 PM 3/12/96 +0100, Tibor Odor wrote in connection with anti-semitic
remarks heard in Hungary:

>I think that several people cannot express their opinion on an other way.
>They are not on the necessary intellectual level, and they do not
>have enough adequate information (thank to the "free" press and media).

        Well, I am not quite sure what kind of educational level is
necessary for informed opinion. The people I talked to were all
professionals: doctors, engineers, teachers. All college graduates. I guess
they were all misled by the not free press and the media.

>The same
>people who you mentioned admire the achievements of the Jewish people
>and never forget that they were the first catholics.

        Somehow I don't think that too many people think in terms of the
earliest times of the church when they think of the Jews. Wouldn't you say
that a lot of people might say that actually the Jews were responsible for
Jesus's death?


>You can define antisemitism on several different ways.

        I can define it only one way: when people of different political
views, of different social background, of different educational level, of
different amount of religiosity are lumped together as a group. When one
feels compelled to mention that X or Y is Jewish. Does anyone care whether I
am a Catholic or a Protestant? But surely for some people it seems to matter
that I am not Jewish.

>I understand you as a person. It can be very difficult for you
>to understand that your favorite party is almost completely refused
>by the Hungarian Nation---at least today.

        Hungarian Nation--capital letter, of course.
and this:

>Nation elected this band of criminals (the present governement).

       If I recall this band of criminals was the MSZP--the socialists
received absolute majority. The SZDSZ joined the government only because of
public pressure. The "Hungarian Nation" seemed to have been a bit leery of a
post-communist government being solely in charge. They wanted a party which
was more democratic and less socialist in composition to stand as guard
against a return of the old regime. Now, it seems, the "Hungarian Nation"
prefers the socialist MSZP--preferably its left wing--and no longer is happy
with the SZDSZ as a watchdog. As a matter of fact, they found their
scapegoats in it.

>In Szeged for example even the FKGP can work together
>with MSZP. Only SZDSZ is in opposition. And I hope this will be
>the national tendecy, with far smaller MSZP.

        I am not surprised about that at all. The two seem to be getting
along just fine: one can hardly distinguish between the demagogues of the
right (FKGP) from the demagogues of the left (left wing of the MSZP and the
Munkaspart). I suspect that the reason you don't like the SZDSZ is that it
is far too democratic for you and democracy is not your cup of tea.
>
>But let as discuss about that possible tax manipulation  ofSoros.
>I am fed up with those who cannot discuss about other topic only
>about Jews or "antisemitism".

        When it comes to "tax manipulation" my hunch is that Soros could
learn a great deal from the Hungarian tax evaders--all those who have a hand
in Hungary's black/grey economy--all 30% of the GDP. And I bet only a
fraction of these people are Jewish.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:24 PM 3/12/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

>Just what is so different about SzDSz policies?
>Could someone inform me what is the political
>difference  indeed between MSzP, MDF, SzDSz
>and FIDESZ (If exists)? They all want
>capitalism with integration in Europe.

        Only from "socialist" viewpoint can possibly the MDF, the MSZP, and
the SZDSZ be considered indistinguishable. You just tell Mr. Lezsak that he
is actually indistinguishable from Mr. Horn or from Tamas Krausz, and he
might punch you in the nose. Also, I don't think that Ivan Peto would be too
enamored to be compared to Sandor Nagy.

>Am I very wrong?

        Yes, you are. And why did you mention only the MDF, the MSZP, the
SZDSZ and the Fidesz. What about the Smallholders and the Christian
Socialists--are they also indistinguishable from the above mentioned
parties. Or, are they better from your vantage point? After all, they are
etatist in outlook, increasingly antagonistic toward the west democracy,
foreign capital, foreigners in general. Are their views perhaps closer to
yours? After all, on the left the Munkaspart has similar notions; notions
which should be fairly close to yours.

        Eva Balogh

E. Balogh wrote:

>         What facts? That people are against compensation for lost property
> as a consequence of the Jewish laws and the holocaust. That they hate the
> SZDSZ because they think that it is a "Jewish party." That everywhere I went
> someone felt compelled to say something negative about Jews in the media or
> in politics. I must have dreamt all that, I guess.
>
>         Eva Balogh

Really ?! Even the Jewish Hungarians are against the compensation? Who and
why wants to compensate then?

Janos

PS: PC error no.2 !  :-)

E. Durant wrote:

>Just what is so different about SzDSz policies?
>Could someone inform me what is the political
>difference  indeed between MSzP, MDF, SzDSz
>and FIDESZ (If exists)? They all want
>capitalism with integration in Europe.
>If in opposition, than they want it to be done
>in a miraclous socially acceptable way.
>The details of tax/privatization level etc.
>vary according to which "side" of each party one looks at.
>Am I very wrong?
>Eva Durant

What is the difference between Szalasi and Nagy Imre? Both
liked Hungary and wanted to avoid the Stalinism. And worst
of all both men might like 'toltottpaprika'!

Janos

>At 05:37 PM 3/11/96 +0100, Mr. Odor wrote:
>
>>Now I start to undestand why Mr. Zsoter wrote that "famous" sentence
>>about you.
>
>        I am not quite sure which "famous" sentence you are talking about
>because he said many, many sentences about me. But please, don't repeat them
>here. Some people might be offended by the four-letter words. Plus you might
>not do a perfect job on the translation of Mr. Zsoter's colorful language.
>
>>I have read all of your postings in this topic, but you only made
>>accusations. You did not argued on the check case. It would be great
>>to remain at the facts, as several people suggested.
>
>>I hope, they wants facts from you too, not only from me.
>
>        What facts? That people are against compensation for lost property
>as a consequence of the Jewish laws and the holocaust. That they hate the
>SZDSZ because they think that it is a "Jewish party." That everywhere I went
>someone felt compelled to say something negative about Jews in the media or
>in politics. I must have dreamt all that, I guess.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>Dear Eva:thank goodness I was away for 2 weeks.To tell you the truth I did not
miss this sometimes futile correspondence.Now that I am back,I just wnt to
say thank you Eva Balogh.You are stending up for all the so called
liberals,humanitariens,to antisemites(being against a group,or one person).
Believe me there are more of us at least I hope,who still have some hope in
mankind(womenkind).
It was nice to be away (in Portugal) where as vacationers the people all of
them get along just fine.
Maybe one day...
Andy Kozma.

On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, olivier razemon wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I am a french journalist and work for the magazine Idol. We aim to publish
> a special issue on the gay touristic resorts all over the world. In this
> view, I would be very grateful to anyone who could give me some info on
> the gay life in  Budapest.
>
> Be so kind. Give me some news!! And be welcome in Paris...
>
> Olivier Razemon
>
I think you need to think about how gay life is for Hungarian homosexuals
as opposed to those lives of the foreigners. A gay friend studying in
Budapest made it very clear that the worlds of both are very different.

Sincerely, Darren Purcell

As most of you by now know the MDF (Magyar Demokrata Forum) split into two.
The populist, nationalist wing remained within the MDF, and the more
moderate, conservative wing left and formed its own party. During the stormy
meeting which elected Lezsak as head of the party, the following incident
occurred:

> Former Speaker of the House Gyorgy
>  Szabad was driven from the speakers' stand by wooing and shouting
>  anti-Semitic statements.
>
>  The motion to apologize for Mr. Szabad was rejected by the
>  convention with Mr. Lezsak abstaining. The exact wording of the
>  anti-Semitic remarks have, unfortunately, not been reported by anyone
>  to the press.

        Let me say a few words about Gyorgy Szabad with a little personal
preamble. My way to history was a long and cumbersome one. It took me a very
long time to discover my interest in the subject. Partly it was due to the
inhospitable times of my high school days: 1950-1954. One had to be raving
mad to even think of history as one's major subject in college. Partly it
was due to the negative influence of a certain Mrs. Arato--my high school
history teacher for four solid years. I don't think that too many people had
the misfortune of having a more boring history teacher than my Mrs. Arato
was. She dutifully read, word for word, the textbook to us. Although it is
possible that it was the only safe method of teaching history in those days.
At least that way the teacher couldn't accused of any deviation from the
official line. Well, in any case, I ended up applying to the departments of
Hungarian language and literature and library science (everybody had to pick
two majors in those days and a graduate of ELTE in those days inevitable
ended up being a high school teacher. I wasn't at all sure that I wanted to
be a high school teacher. Hence the library science as an insurance
policy.). However, library science was a huge disappointment, but due to the
rigidity of the university system in those days there was no way out unless
the "authorities" found you to be a "genius," who could apply, after two
years of misery, for something called "tudomanyos egyszakossag," allowing
you to drop the dreadful library science in my case and concentrate only on
Hungarian language and literature with view of ending up in a research
institute attached to the Academy. I was lucky, I managed to get rid of
library science and began my "tudomanyos egyszakossag" in September 1956.
Originally I was hoping that the incredibly high number of courses I had to
carry previously would be reduced by having only one major, but the
"authorities" were not that kind: suddenly they discovered that I  needed
all sorts of other subjects, like history!

        And now comes into the picture Gyorgy Szabad, who, in those days,
was an assistant professor (adjunktus) of modern Hungarian history and he
was the lecturer of the course I had to take: Hungary between 1790 and 1848.
As you can imagine Gyorgy Szabad didn't teach me Hungarian history for
long--a few weeks and then came the revolution. But I still vividly remember
every word he said--how wonderfully he was able to describe Pest in 1790 by
asking us to look out the window and look at the house next door which
already stood there at that time. Or how he described in detail the layout
of one of the Esterhazy estate's and the Esterhasys' attempts at
modernization by importing, for example, new imported Swiss cows. A new
world opened up before my eyes--only God knows what would have happened if
there was no 1956. Most likely a huge personal crisis--stuck in Old
Hungarian literature while wanting to study history and unable to do so. I
still remember Gyorgy Szabad fondly.

        In any case. Great was my surprise when I discovered that Gyorgy
Szabad took an active role in politics and became one of charter member of
the MDF. In 1990 he was elected member of parliament and eventually became
speaker of the house. And his own party's delegates shouted him down! They
ought to be ashamed but obviously they are not.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Eva  (Balogh),

I also heard the story how Gyorgy Szabad was treated at that meeting. As far as
I know , nobody (not even Gyorgy Szabad) confirmed the story officially. Those
who left refused to comment it. However I can believe that the story is true,
because as I know several other people left the meeting with Gyorgy Szabad.

Janos

At 06:39 PM 3/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Eva  (Balogh),
>
>I also heard the story how Gyorgy Szabad was treated at that meeting. As far a
s
>I know , nobody (not even Gyorgy Szabad) confirmed the story officially. Those
>who left refused to comment it. However I can believe that the story is true,
>because as I know several other people left the meeting with Gyorgy Szabad.

Janos, I heard half the story still in Hungary--the antisemitic remarks
reached me only here. Are they crazy? Is Lezsak in his right mind for not
standing up but abstaining in a cowardly fashion? Are these people so
provincial that they don't realize what impression that makes outside the
country?

        As for Szabad. What I wrote about him as a young assistant professor
was exactly as it was. Later I read some of his later books and I liked him
less as a historian. But that was expected. In 1956 I was twenty and what
did I know about Hungarian history? Nothing! I was impressionable and he
impressed me. Later, when I was reading some of his later works I liked him
less as a historian. If I recall properly I even wrote a fairly negative
review of his book *Forradalom es kiegyezes valaszutjan 1860-61* because I
didn't think that there was a valaszut. It seemed to me a forced thesis!

        Eva

In addition to A.J. Vadasz's quotes there are other important ones, too.

Quote:

Article 1

 The Slovak Republic is a sovereign,
 democratic, and law-governed state.
 It is not linked to ideology or religious belief.

Article 6

 (1) Slovak is the state language on
       the territory of the Slovak Republic.

 (2) The use of other languages in dealings
       with the authorities will be regulated by law.

Article 13

 (1) Duties can be imposed only on the basis
       of law, within its limits, and while complying
       with basic rights and liberties.

 (2) Limits to basic rights and liberties can be
       set only by law, under conditions laid down
       in this Constitution.

 (3) Legal restrictions of constitutional rights and
       liberties must apply equally to all cases that
       meet the set conditions.

 (4) When restricting constitutional rights and
       liberties, attention must be paid to their
       essence and meaninig. These restrictions
       must not be used for any other than the set
       purpose.

Article 26

 (4) The freedom of speech and the right to
       seek out and spread information can be
       restricted by law if such a measure is
       unavoidable in a democratic society to
                      protect the rights and liberties of others,
       state security, public order, or public
       health and morality.

 (5) State bodies and territorial self-administration
       bodies are under an obligation to provide
       information on their activities in an appropriate
       manner and in the state language. The
       conditions and manner of execution will be
       specified by law.

Article 27

 (1) The right of petition is guaranteed. Everyone
       has the right, alone or with others, to address
       requests, proposals, and complaints to state
                      and territorial self-administration bodies in
       matters of public or other common interest.

 (2) A petition must not be used to call for the
       violation of basic rights and liberties.

 (3) A petition must not interfere with the indepence
      of a court


<<<<<END QUOTE>>>>>


More later.

John,

When something is ON the net already, downloadable, it has ALREADY been
typed.  No need to redo it.  All you have to do is to have it sent to your
own e-mail address; from there it becomes forwardable to all!

Try find the place where it is located.  If you have trouble, I am sure
most of us can help, if you supply us with the complete internet address.

Good luck!
Martha

Joe,

It is not necessary for me to quote you; this is in reference to your
doubts about Eva Balogh's humanitarian tendencies.

If you'd only re-read your *own* previous posting, you'd find the quote
from Eva that proves my point.  At least I know that your mother tongue is
English, so it should constitute no hardship for you to fully comprehend
her words.

Kindly refrain from making snide remarks, as henceforth they shall be
ignored by yours truly, no matter how hard you try to provoke.  My time
is too valuable to be wasted on games that children play to call
attention to themselves.

Please understand that these are my FINAL words on the matter.

Martha S. Bihari

Eva  Balogh  wrote:

> Janos, I heard half the story still in Hungary--the antisemitic remarks
> reached me only here. Are they crazy? Is Lezsak in his right mind for not
> standing up but abstaining in a cowardly fashion? Are these people so
> provincial that they don't realize what impression that makes outside the
> country?

No, sadly it looks like the political right in Hungary is committing a
collective suicide.  They are much keener on fighting against the mythical
'liberalism' (which they use in the US rather than the European sense) and
each other than against the political left.

As for the impression made outside of Hungary, stuff that.  The right seems
to have been singularly uninterested in that since the fall of Kadarism.
A fascination with the fascistoid to neonazi extreme right has been evident,
and there was no strong centre right force that could simultaneously reject
right-wing extremism and project itself as a credible alternative to the
unified centre left.  Antall's very belated, reluctant and drawn-out break
with Csurka was the best example of the inability of the right to rid itself
of extremists.  While the extreme left has been safely quarantined in
the Workers' Party, the creation of the Csurkist Party of Justice and Life
did not do the trick on the right.  Manifestations of extreme-right ideology
are not rare even within the mainstream right parties (except the Young
Democrats) and this remains a major deterrent for substantial sections of
the Hungarian electorate.

The main problem for the right is the minority Hungarians in neighbouring
countries.  I mean, the main problem is that the right is unable to address
this issue, painful for all Hungarians, in a modern manner.  They still use
the pre-war, reject-Trianon, return-the-minority-territories-to-Hungary manner,
and have an exclusive concept of Hungarianness vis-a-vis Jews and Gypsies.
This allows the extreme right an ideological foothold within the centre.

By their ever increasing fragmentation, the right only show the political left
in a better light and rule themselves out at an effective political force.
There were four mainstream right-wing parties in Hungary before the schism
in the MDF, now there may be five.  They each try to appeal to small sections
of the electorate (Young Democrats to the right-of-centre urban intellectuals,
Christian Democrats to the dedicated Christians, Smallholders to the populist-
leaning traditionalists, while the MDF has had no idea since the defeat) and
are loath to join forces.

If the Socialists manage to turn around the economy to the extent that people
in the street begin perceiving financial or, at least psychological, dividends,
they preserve themselves in power by default.

George Antony

At 09:18 AM 3/11/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:

>You're going to get a nasty e-mail from our newly self-appointed censor,
>Martha Bihari. You'd better be a good boy or else. We're not supposed to
>poke you with a stick any longer.

I guess you scared her off.  I waited for a nasty e-mail but got nothing.

She's not the only self-appointed censor on this newgroup.  There are many.
Too bad for them that they can't control the agenda.  Too bad that they are
afraid of a vigorous debate.  Too bad that they wish that this newsgroup
would be nothing more than a 'folkloric' kind of medium where people could
ask questions about things Hungarians and they would get 'nice' answers.
Too bad that they don't want Hungarians to discuss various political,
historical, or social issues.  Too bad.

By the way, what do you mean that I'm not supposed to be poked with a stick
any longer?  Are you trying to tease me?  What should I be poked with?  And
not any longer than what?

Joe Szalai

At 08:54 AM 3/12/96 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        What can I do. I am just not humanitarian.

No Eva, you are not. =20

Yesterday you treated us to the dictionary definitions of "liberal" and
"liberalism".  Let me treat you to the dictionary definition of=
 "humanitarian".

humanitarian (hy=A1-m=E0n=B4=EE-t=E2r=B4=EA-en) noun
One who is devoted to the promotion of human welfare and the advancement of
social reforms; a philanthropist.

adjective
Of, relating to, or characteristic of a humanitarian or humanitarianism. See
synonyms at HUMANE.

The American Heritage=AE Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition=
=20

Do you believe that exchanging dictionary definitions of complex political
ideas will solve anything?  I don't.  But if all you want to do is to quote
the dictionary to me and to label my views "socialist" instead of debating,
then I have no choice but to show you the dictionary as well.  By the way,
my dictionary says that "socialism" is,=20

a. A social system in which the means of producing and distributing goods
are owned collectively and political power is exercised by the whole
community. b. The theory or practice of those who support such a social=
 system.

Now, when have I advocated the collective owenership of the means of
production and distribution?  I have advocated such social programmes as
healthcare.  Is that socialism?  You seem to think so but you never explain=
 why.

It's interesting when you say that Hungarians don't believe you when you
tell them that they can't have a system half way between the existing
socialism and capitalism.  History shows us that people often yearn for the
past when the future doesn't look rosy.  If you tell Hungarians that they
can't have the things they used to have then don't be surprised if they get
more and more reactionary.  Out of desperation they will soon seek out
convenient scapegoats.  And that can be more freightening than having a fair
and progressive tax system that would allow for basic social programmes.

Too often we learn the hard way.

Joe Szalai

I'm concerned about the fair number of fan e-mail that Eva Balogh is
getting.  I hope she has it in her to caution her fans about personality
cults.  Since I don't have any fans I pose less of a danger to the world.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> In my books, someone
>who cares more about the economic health of a nation than about the
health
>of its people is no humanitarian.

I'm sleeping too much. I dozed right through your election as arbiter of
all that is humanitarian. Is it accurate to say that you are advocating
some form of "compassion fascism" here, wherein you, gauleiter of all that
is good, decide just how strait the gate is? Who knows, maybe some day
your ill-articulated vision of ultimate social good and benevolence
reigning supreme will come true. Of course, people in the lowest circle of
Hell will be wearing overcoats, sipping hot chocolate and playing ice
hockey when it happens, but hey -- a warm-hearted, loving guy can dream
can't he?
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- By the way, St. Paul, I thought the whole intent of this peace,
love and understanding stuff you wave like the bloody flag is supposed to
be centered on inclusiveness. So when are you going to include someone
else in that group of people who have sensibilities as exquisite as yours?
Right now, that subset appears to contain, ta da!, no one but Joe Szalai.

Warning -- the above post does not contain conventional Net signs -- <G>,
:), etc. -- for statements grounded in irony or smart-ass sarcasm. Those
readers with social skills above the level of, say, an artichoke, should
be able to figure the rhetorical mode out on their own. The rest of you
will have to suck air.

At 09:27 PM 3/12/96 -0500, Martha S. Bihari wrote:

>It is not necessary for me to quote you; this is in reference to your
>doubts about Eva Balogh's humanitarian tendencies.

Martha, I would enjoy your posts more if you opposed or defended ideas and
not people.

>If you'd only re-read your *own* previous posting, you'd find the quote
>from Eva that proves my point.  At least I know that your mother tongue is
>English, so it should constitute no hardship for you to fully comprehend
>her words.

Gee. What can I say?  I was born in Hungary to Hungarian parents.  I even
started school there.  That's proof that my mother tongue is English.  And
readers of this list thought that the Sumerian connection to Hungarian
debate was interesting.

>Kindly refrain from making snide remarks, as henceforth they shall be
>ignored by yours truly, no matter how hard you try to provoke.  My time
>is too valuable to be wasted on games that children play to call
>attention to themselves.

I assume that you know where the delete key is and that you know how to use it.

>Please understand that these are my FINAL words on the matter.

I see the light at the end of the tunnel too.

Joe Szalai

Dear Eva Balogh,

> >Now I start to undestand why Mr. Zsoter wrote that "famous" sentence
> >about you.
>
>         I am not quite sure which "famous" sentence you are talking about
> because he said many, many sentences about me. But please, don't repeat them
> here. Some people might be offended by the four-letter words. Plus you might
> not do a perfect job on the translation of Mr. Zsoter's colorful language.

I said, that I start to understand, not to repeat.

> >I have read all of your postings in this topic, but you only made
> >accusations. You did not argued on the check case. It would be great
> >to remain at the facts, as several people suggested.
>
> >I hope, they wants facts from you too, not only from me.
>
>         What facts? That people are against compensation for lost property
> as a consequence of the Jewish laws and the holocaust. That they hate the
> SZDSZ because they think that it is a "Jewish party." That everywhere I went
> someone felt compelled to say something negative about Jews in the media or
> in politics. I must have dreamt all that, I guess.
>
>         Eva Balogh

I think that several people cannot express their opinion on an other way.
They are not on the necessary intellectual level, and they do not
have enough adequate information (thank to the "free" press and media).
Most of the people hate SZDSZ because of their politics.  The same
people who you mentioned admire the achievements of the Jewish people
and never forget that they were the first catholics.

You can define antisemitism on several different ways. If you define
antisemitism on the way that everybody is antisemitic who is against
the interest of certain Jewish groups then everybody is antisemitic.
This definition is without any practical value, except for accusation
of otherwise honest and openminded people.

So what you mentioned is an onesided simplistification.

I understand you as a person. It can be very difficult for you
to understand that your favorite party is almost completely refused
by the Hungarian Nation---at least today. I had similar feelings when the
Nation elected this band of criminals (the present governement).
But that is the politics. In Szeged for example even the FKGP can work together
with MSZP. Only SZDSZ is in opposition. And I hope this will be
the national tendecy, with far smaller MSZP.

But let as discuss about that possible tax manipulation  ofSoros.
I am fed up with those who cannot discuss about other topic only
about Jews or "antisemitism".

Best regards,

Tibor Odor