Andras Kornai writes in connection with out discussion on Bardossy, answering
Joe Pannon:

>For the most part I'm quite certain that you are right and it was
>overzelous local authorities.  The point is not that Ba1rdossy personally
>ordered them to commit atrocities. The point is that he failed to punish,
>or even to initiate proceedings against, those who were proximally
>responsible for the atrocities.

You know, Andras, the more I read about Bardossy the more I think that you
are overstating your case.

Let me tell you what the old "Marxist, Kadarist" official history books
published in 1976 says about this:

Bajcsy-Zsilinszky, Rassay, Janos Zichy, and Geza Szullo demanded an
investigation and Bardossy ordered such an investigation but "the governor
[meaning Horthy] through his chief-of-staff assured the officers responsible
for the massacre that nothing would happen to them." [In the original:
"Bajcsy-Zsilinszky, Rassay, Zichy Janos es Szullo Geza vizsgalatot
koveteltek. Bardossy ezt el is rendelte, a kormanyzo azonban katonai
irodajanak fonoke utjan megnyugtatta a vereskezu katonatiszteket, hogy nem
lesz bantodasuk."

But there is no question that he was more pro-German than the Hungarian
government officials and politicians, meaning the conservative ones, thought
was necessary. However, as the same "official history" states about Bardossy:

"Muvelt, europai latokoru, megfontolt embernek tartottak, aki a kul- es
belpolitikaban egyarant a magyar uralkodo osztalyok erdekeinek megfelelo utat
fogja jarni. Bardossy azonban olyan idopontban lett miniszterelnok, amikor
meglehetosen szeles koruve valt az a benyomas, hogy a nemeteknek minden
sikerul. . . ." [Summary: Bardossy was considered to be a well-educated man
with wide intellectual horizons who would both in internal and external
affairs will consider the interests of the Hungarian ruling classes. However,
Bardossy became prime minister at the time when the impression became
widespread that the Germans are never wrong.]

Eva Balogh

Vancouver probably has many Hungarians. It's more practical to talk to
the translator in person.  Besides, you can't pay someone via email...

On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Butch wrote:

>  (Butch) wrote:
>
> :>I am looking for someone in the vancouver area that could and would be
> willing
> :>to translate a letter in english into hungarian.
>
> :>Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
>
> :>If you can, please respond in email to advoid cluttering up this newsgroup.
>
> :>Thanks.
>
> :
>
> errr.....make that anyone anywhere, sorry!
>
> 
>

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I am writing a paper analyzing the relationship between certain
economic factors and election results in Central and Eastern Europe
(CEE). In order to quantify the election results, I am trying to assign a
numerical measure to the political orientation of political parties. To
make the results as objective as possible, I would like to solicit
responses from the subscribers to this discussion list. If you would
like to assist me with the ranking please follow the instructions below.
I appologize for crossposting.

Bellow are lists of parties that participated in the recent elections in
the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia. Each party
should be assigned two ranks: one for its political orientation (left,
right or centrist) and one for the degree of populism (i.e. how
much/often does the party utilize populism).

POLITICAL ORIENTATION:

Each party should be assigned a number between -10 and 10.
Negative values are to be assigned to left-wing parties and positive
values to right-wing parties. Extreme left should be assigned a
number close to -10 while extreme right should receive a number
close to 10. Values around zero should be reserved for centrist
parties.

POPULISM:

Each party should be assigned a number between 0 and 10. Zero
means the party refrains from using populist statements while 10
means the party's statements and actions are completely populist.

At the lists below, please attach the two numerical ranks to each party
at the places designated for that following the name of the party.

Example:
Name_of_Party
Political Orientation: -5
Populism: 2

Please do the ranking only for the countries you are well familiar with.
If you do not know some of the parties (e.g. the smallest ones) please
omit the rank. Please return your response to me via private email as
soon as possible. Some basic information about yourself and your
background (institutional affiliation, nationality, etc.) will be very
helpful, too. Feel free to forward this message to anybody who could
assist me with the ranking.

Your effort is greatly appreciated.

Jan Fidrmuc
CentER for Economic Research, Tilburg University, The Netherlands
P.O.Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, phone: +31-13-466-8221, fax:
+31-13-466-3066
Email: .


***************************************
CZECH REPUBLIC 1992:
ODS/KDS   Obcanska demokraticka strana & Krestanska demokraticka
strana
   Civid Democratic Party & Christian Democratic Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

LB      Levy blok
   Leftist Block
Political Orientation:
Populism:

CSSD      Ceskoslovenska socialni demokracie
   Czechoslovak Social Democracy
Political Orientation:
Populism:

LSU      Liberalne socialni unie
   Liberal Social Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KDU/CSL   Krestansko demokraticka unie - Ceskoslovenska strana
lidova
   Christ.Dem. Union - Czechoslovak People's Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SPR/RSC   Sdruzeni pro republiku - Republikanska strana
Ceskoslovenska
   Union for the Republic - Republican Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ODA       Obcanska demokratiska aliance
   Civid Democratic Aliance
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HSD/SMS   Hnuti za samospravnou demokracii - Spolecnost pro
Moravu a Slezsko
   Movement for Independent Democracy - Society for Moravia &
Silesia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

OH      Obcanske hnuti
   Civic Movement
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HDSI      Hnuti duchodcu za socialni istoty
   Pensioners' Movement for Social Security
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SCPZR   Strana ceskoslovenskych podnikatel, zivnostniku a rolniku
   Czechoslovak Entrepreneurs' Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KAN      Klub angazovanych nestraniku
   The Club of Active Independents
Political Orientation:
Populism:

NEI      Nezavisla iniciativa
   Independent Initiative
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SPP      Strana pratel piva
   Beer Lovers Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HSS      Hnuti za socialni spravedlnost
   Movement for Social Justice
Political Orientation:
Populism:

D92      Demokrate 92
   The Democrats 92
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ROI      Romska obcanska iniciativa
   Romany Citizens' Initiative
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SRNDJ   Strana republikanske a narodne demokraticke istoty
   Party of Republican and National Democratic Security
Political Orientation:
Populism:

NSS/CSSS   Narodne socialni strana - Ceskoslovenska strana
narodne socialisticka
   National Social Party - Czechoslovak National Socialist Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:


***************************************
SLOVAKIA 1992:
HZDS      Hnutie za demokraticke Slovensko
   Movement for a Democratic Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SDL      Strana demokratickej lavice
   Democratic Left Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KDH      Krestansko demokraticke hnutie
   Christian Democratic Movement
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SNS       Slovenska narodna strana
   Slovak National Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MKDH/ESWS   Madarska Koalicia
   Hungarian Coalition
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ODU      Obcianska demokraticka unia
   Civid Democratic Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SDSS      Socialnodemokraticka strana Slovenska
   Social Democratic Party of Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

DS/ODS   Demokraticka strana - Obcianska demokraticka strana
   Democratic Party - Civic Democratic Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SKDH      Slovenske krestansko demokraticke hnutie
   Slovak Christian Democratic Movement
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MOS      Madarska obcianska strana
   Hungarian Civic Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SZS      Strana zelenych na Slovensku
   Green Party in Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SZ      Strana zelenych
   Green Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SPI      Strana prace a istoty
   Party of Labor and Security
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KSS      Komunisticka strana Slovenska
   Communist Party of Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ROI      Romska obcianska iniciativa
   Romany Citizens' Initiative
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ZPR/RS   Zdruzenie pre republiku - republikanska strana
Ceskoslovenska
   Union for the Republic - Republican Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SS/SNZ   Strana slobody - Strana narodneho zjednotenia
   Party of Freedom - Party of National Unification
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SLS      Slovenska ludova strana
   Slovak People's Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HzOS      Hnutie za oslobodenie
   Movement for Liberalization
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HSD/SMS   Hnutie za samospravnu demokraciu - Spolocnost pre
Moravu aSliezsko
   Movement for Independent Democracy - Society for Moravia &
Silesia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HzSS      Hnutie za socialnu spravodlivost
   Movement for Social Justice
Political Orientation:
Populism:

NL      Narodni liberali
   National Liberals
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HSP/SRU   Hnutie za slobodu prejavu - Slovenska republikanska unia
   Movement for Freedom of Speech - Slovak Republican Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:


***************************************
SLOVAKIA 1994:
HZDS/RSS   Hnutie za demokraticke Slovensko & Rolnicka strana
Slovenska
   Movement for a Democratic Slovakia

SV      Spolocna volba
   Common Choice
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MK      Madarska koalicia
   Hungarian Coalition
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KDH      Krestansko demokraticke hnutie
   Christian Democratic Movement
Political Orientation:
Populism:

DU      Demokraticka unia
   Democratic Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ZRS      Zdruzenie robotnikov Slovenska
   Association Workers of Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SNS       Slovenska narodna strana
   Slovak National Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

DS      Demokraticka strana
   Democratic Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KSS      Komunisticka strana Slovenska
   Communist Party of Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KSUS      Krestansko socialna unia Slovenska
   Christian Social Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:

NS      Nove Slovensko
   Our Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SPK      Strana proti korupcii
   Anti-Corruption Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

HZPCS   Hnutie za prosperujuce Cesko a Slovensko
   Movement for a Prosperous Czechia and Slovakia
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ROI      Romska obcianska iniciativa
   Romany Citizens' Initiative
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SD      Socialna demokracia
   Social Democracy
Political Orientation:
Populism:

RSDSS   Realna socialnodemokraticka strana Slovakov
   Real Social Democratic Party of Slovaks
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ZPR/RS   Zdruzenie pre republiku - republikanska strana
   Union for the Republic - Republican Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:


***************************************
HUNGARY 1994:
MSzP   Magyar Szocialista Part
   The Hungarian Socialist Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SDS   Szabad Demokratak Szovetsege
   The Alliance of Free Democrats
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MDF   Magyar Demokrata Forum
   The Forum of Hungarian Democrats
Political Orientation:
Populism:

Fidesz   Fiatal Demokratak Szovetsege
   The Alliance of Young Democrats
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KDNP   Keresztenydemokrata Neppart
   The Christian Democratic Public Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KsP   Koztarsagag Part
   The Party of Republic
Political Orientation:
Populism:

FKP   Fuggetlen Kisgazdapart
   The Independent Small-farmers Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MIEP   Magyar Igaszag Es Elet Partja
   The Party of Hungarian Truth and Life
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MP   Munkaspart
   The Workers' party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

AS   Agrarszovetseg
   The Agricultural Alliance
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MSDP   Magyar Szocialdemokrata Part
   The Hungarian Social-Democratic Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

EKP   Egyesult Kisgazdapart
   The Joint Farmers Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

ND   Nemzet Demokratak
   The National Democrats
Political Orientation:
Populism:

MZP   Madzarorszagi Zold Part
   The Hungarian Green Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

VP   Vallalkozok Partja
   The Enterpreneus's Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KP   Konservativ Part
   The Conservative Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

PP   Piacpart
   The Marketparty
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KKP   Kiegyezes Kisgazdapart
   ???
Political Orientation:
Populism:


***************************************
POLAND 1993 - Elections to the Sejm:
SLD   Sojusz Lewicy Demokraticznej
   Democratic Left Aliance
Political Orientation:
Populism:

PSL   Polskie Stronnnictwo Ludowe
   Polish Peasant Party
Political Orientation:
Populism:

UD   Unia Demokraticzna
   Democratic Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:

UP   Unia Pracy
   Union of Labor
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KPN   Konfederacia Polski Niepodleglej
   Confederation for an Independent Poland
Political Orientation:
Populism:

BBWR   Bezpartyjny Blok Wspierania Reform
   Non-Party Block for Support of Reform
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KKWO Katolicki Komitet Wyborczy "Ojczyzna"
   Catholic Election Commitee
Political Orientation:
Populism:

NSZZ   Niezalezny Samorzadny Zwiazek Zawodowy "Solidarnosc"
   Solidarity Labor Union
Political Orientation:
Populism:

PC   Porozumenie Centrum
   Consensum Center
Political Orientation:
Populism:

KLD   Kongres Liberalno-Demokraticzny
   Liberal-Democratic Congress
Political Orientation:
Populism:

UPR   Unia Polityki Realnej
   Union of Real Politics
Political Orientation:
Populism:

SL   Samoobrona-Leppera
   ???
Political Orientation:
Populism:

PX   Partia X
   Party X
Political Orientation:
Populism:

TSKN   Towarzystwa Spoleczno-Kulturalne Mniejszosci Niemieckiej
   German Minority
Political Orientation:
Populism:



-----
Jan Fidrmuc
CentER for Economic Research, Tilburg University, The Netherlands
P.O.Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, phone: +31-13-466-8221, fax: +31-13-466-3066
Email: .

Andras Kornai writes in connection with our discussion on Bardossy, answering
Joe Pannon:

>For the most part I'm quite certain that you are right and it was
>overzelous local authorities.  The point is not that Ba1rdossy personally
>ordered them to commit atrocities. The point is that he failed to punish,
>or even to initiate proceedings against, those who were proximally
>responsible for the atrocities.

You know, Andras, the more I read about Bardossy the more I think that you
are overstating your case.

Let me tell you what the old "Marxist, Kadarist" official history book
published in 1976 says about this:

Bajcsy-Zsilinszky, Rassay, Janos Zichy, and Geza Szullo demanded an
investigation and Bardossy ordered such an investigation but "the governor
[meaning Horthy] through his chief-of-staff assured the officers responsible
for the massacre that nothing would happen to them." [In the original:
"Bajcsy-Zsilinszky, Rassay, Zichy Janos es Szullo Geza vizsgalatot
koveteltek. Bardossy ezt el is rendelte, a kormanyzo azonban katonai
irodajanak fonoke utjan megnyugtatta a vereskezu katonatiszteket, hogy nem
lesz bantodasuk."

But there is no question that he was more pro-German than the Hungarian
government officials and politicians, meaning the conservative ones, thought
was necessary. However, as the same "official history" states about Bardossy:

"Muvelt, europai latokoru, megfontolt embernek tartottak, aki a kul- es
belpolitikaban egyarant a magyar uralkodo osztalyok erdekeinek megfelelo utat
fogja jarni. Bardossy azonban olyan idopontban lett miniszterelnok, amikor
meglehetosen szeles koruve valt az a benyomas, hogy a nemeteknek minden
sikerul. . . ." [Summary: Bardossy was considered to be a well-educated man
with wide intellectual horizons who would, both in internal and external
affairs, consider the interests of the Hungarian ruling classes. However,
Bardossy became prime minister at the time when the impression became
widespread that the Germans simply cannot go wrong.]

Eva Balogh

Dear Darren,

You are right about the 185,000. However, the population of the county of
Baranya is almost half a million.

Eva Balogh

I received the following piece of mail this morning from Tamas Toth, asking
me to post it on this list.

>Subj:  Dear Eva, please do a last favor for an old adversary!
>Date:  95-11-29 07:26:40 EST
>From:   (Toth Tamas)
>To:    
>
>
>
>       Dear Eva,
>
>       please do a favor to an old adversary, and send this posting to
>       the HUNGARY list.  I am not willing to subscribe to it and I will stop
>       posting and reading it, for a while at least.
>       DISCLAIMER:  I do not want to drag
>       you into this in any sense, and if you submit it for me, no one
>       should imply that you subscribe to anything written in it.
>
>       Thanks a lot.
>
>       Tamas Toth
>
>
>
>
>From:  SMTP%"" 29-NOV-1995 05:45:47.75
>To:    
>CC:
>Subj:  Rejected posting to 
>
>Date:         Wed, 29 Nov 1995 04:41:50 -0400
>From:         "L-Soft list server at GWUVM (1.8b)" >
>Subject:      Rejected posting to 
>To:           
>
>You  are  not   authorized  to  send  mail  to  the   HUNGARY  list  from
>your
 account.  You might be  authorized to send to  the
>list
>from another of your accounts, or perhaps when using another mail program
>which
>generates slightly  different addresses, but  LISTSERV has no way  to
>associate
>this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you
>have
>any question regarding the policy of  the HUNGARY list, please contact the
>list
>owners: .
>
>------------------------ Rejected message (59 lines)
>--------------------------
>Sender: 
>Date:    Wed, 29 Nov 1995 5:43:52 -0500 (EST)
>From:  (Toth Tamas)
>Message-Id: >
>Subject: To Hugh Agnew: thanks for the hospitality
>To: 
>X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%""
>
>
>
>       Dear Hugh,
>
>       you are absolutely correct: as guests in your house you are entitled
>       to set the standards to which contributors to the HUNGARY list have
>       to adhere.  Also, I share your concerns about your reputation,
>       and I fully agree that Mr. Kiss is a harmful xxx (replace it with
>       some not too flattering part of the anatomy).
>
>       I used to read the list and post on it every now and then. Thanks
>       for your hospitality: I appreciate it.  However, I'm afraid I will
>       have to suspend both activities or maybe stop them altogether.
>       No hard feelings, just principles.  I got some, too.
>
>       Please don't misunderstand me.  These principles are by no means
>       against your rights as a host, against due respect towards the
>       voluntary service you provide.  Most of all, they are not against
>       moderated lists.  What I find a little disturbing is the name of the
>       list.  HUNGARY is about the most general, generic English word that
>       in my mind (and according to everything I learned and was constantly
>       reminded of) supposed to be completely inclusive.  IMHO pearls,
>       irrelevance and dirt all belong there.  If there are things we should
>       be ashamed of, we better know it and clean up our acts.  However,
>       as of today the list with the *specific name HUNGARY* starts to define
>       people or styles as undesireable.  "If you don't behave, get out of
>       here."  In some sense this recalls to me the charge of right-wing
>       extremists "If you don't subscribe to the ways of thinking I find
>       acceptable you are not a (good) Hungarian!"
>
>       If the name of the list changes, I will be among the first to
>       subscribe.  Or maybe some day reconsider my current decision.
>
>       Anyway, thanks for your hospitality again, and thanks for your work.
>
>       Sincerely,
>
>       Tamas Toth


End of message.

Eva Balogh

Joe Szalai wrote:

: >: Besides, America only gets involved if it is to its advantage.
: >
: > And what, pray, is our advantage in Bosnia?
:
: I really don't know, Greg.

What a surprise...


--Greg Grose

Szia haverok,
I'm, actually, glad that there is new "szar" being thrown around here, but
personal attacks continue, but ez a helyzet. I have mixed feelings about the
matter. On one hand I think it's an extremely idiotic  idea to send in US
troops to clean up the mess that we call Bosnia without any true plan. There
should of never been an embargo imposed on Bosnia in the first place. It only
made the situation worse. I also feel that the US has a responsibility to be
involved, not for the sake that it's the "right" thing or because it's
Americana or for the sake of, once it does get cleaned up(if it gets cleaned
up), we (US) can be the first to put up a McDonald's to feed the hungry souls
of Sarajevo and get all the credit. NO!! Remember, we are a part of NATO and if
NATO says we should be involved than so be it. It's only fair, right?? Same can
be said of the UN. How can NATO/UN make a move, if one of their members are not
up to it?? There's also the problem of the burden the US takes on as a result
of shitty planning (Koszi Billy Bacsi). Eventually we'll have 35,000 troops,
England 12,000, Germany 7,000, France 5,000, and the numbers just dwindle as we
list the countries involved.  For 4-5 years we've watched this unfold in front
of our eyes and now, unfortunately, we've become desensitized by it all to
really care about it, anymore, except that Billy Bacsi has, now, seen the light
because the Pope told him, "Go to Bosnia my son!!". Now enter Hungary. Hungary
would like nothing more than to be in NATO. So to cowtow to the NATO bigshots:
"Hey, come to Pecs!!! Welcome to Hungary Amcsi baratom!!!" (as they cowtowed
the UN during Desert Storm by letting them use Hungarian airspace to get troops
to Saudi Arabia from Germany. I was in Hungary at that time. I never heard so
many jets in my life). Seems like a grand idea, close to the conflict,
betterment of Amcsi/Magyar relations, maybe some cash to knock down the debt,
and all the happy lofasz involved in this matter. Let's say this operation is
to fail, which it most likely will. What will Serbs think of Hungary?? Will
they retaliate on Pecs?? Will some terrorists try to blow up the barracks (like
in Beirut), maybe they blow up Ferihegy, thus making the stay in Hungary that
much more involved. Maybe the troops shack up in Debrecen, Taszar, Karcag,
Bugyi, and etc., now.  Will the Hungarian population in Voivodnia be
slaughtered because of Hungarian involvment?? What I'm saying is that this is a
stupid move and there's no way to "police" something like that. It's not that
cut & dry anymore as maybe it was 4 years ago and never imposed an embargo on
people we want to help. Any involvment without a clear plan will result in
disaster!! Sit back and watch folks. This should be a good one.

Koszi szepen,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

>
> Laci Toth:
>
> >However,closing this
> >subject,I like to ask the following question:Is anybody ever thinking about
> >what Hungary will be like once everything is privatised?
>
> Economic growth will begin and in ten years or so people will live better.
>
> Eva Balogh


Hungary will be in and out of crises like the US, with
mass-unemployment and pockets of third world poverty;
Public education and health-care inadequate if at all survive,
crime, riots, etc - probably multipled effects, as the
economy is less developed to produce and sell profitable
but useless stuff e.g. arms and cars.

George Antony wrote:

: ...only the US seems to have the residual guts and idealism to fit the
: bill.

Well, the GI to take the lead, perhaps; it is a multi-national (24 odd, I
believe) effort in Bosnia, after all.

According to news reports, Parliament in Budapest voted near unanimously
(1 against, 6 abstentions) to allow NATO forces passsage and accomodations,
so count Hungary in.


--Greg Grose

> Economic growth will begin and in ten years or so people will live better.
> Eva Balogh

So say someone who spent a life in the dreamworld of academia. Those who
actually did work in the world of business are less optimistic. Consider
the words of Geza Bankuti, a Florida business man who actually
established a manufacturing business in Hungary. In his article in
"Magyar Hirlap" he characterized the Hungarian business environment
something like this: there is hardly any honest commerce, with the
"everything free" slogan a morally bankrupt economy developed, and
naturally the citizens hate it. (".. alig van tisztesseges kereskedelem,
viszont "mindent szabad" jelszoval egy erkolcsokre fittyet hanyo uzleti
vilag jott letre, amit a polgar termeszetesen pillanatok alatt megutal.")

Barna Bozoki

>
> Dear Darren,
>
> You are right about the 185,000. However, the population of the county of
> Baranya is almost half a million.
>
> Eva Balogh
>

OOOOPS!!!! Geographer needs to go find a better memory! Thanks

Darren

Hi all!  I just met my 4th cousin from Hungary this past week.  She's an
exchange student here in the States.  My grandfather was born in Hungary and
my grandmother in Germany, along with my father.  While I know plenty about
Germany, I don't have that much knowledge on Hungary.  Can anyone please write
and tell me different things about Hungary.  I'm interested in the way of
life,  economics, history, restrictions, etc.  My father told me that when you
cross the border into Hungary, it's like going back in time.  I'd like some of
you to tell me more.

Thanks

Jenifer Hegyesi Duffy
Montgomery,Texas

Joe,
  Nice to hear from "Fehervari magyarok."  I have been to Bory var a few
times, and found it very interesting.  I really enjoyed my time in
Fehervar, and I think for the experience I needed at the time, it was the
ideal city for me.  Not as big as Budapest, so I could really get to know
some people, but also not a little village, which would have driven me
crazy.  Even though I am looking to move to Bp. now due to its more
cosmopolitan atmosphere, I will always hold a place in my heart for my
Szekesfehervar.
  Incidentally, do you keep any contact with people in Fehervar?  I am
curious if I would know any of your acquaintances.
  Good to hear from you.
--Shannon

I fail to see how many Hungarians would draw a connection between American
troops, who are there to defend Bosnians, and Russians, who were there to
occupy Hungarians, stationed in Pecs.  The Americans, though soldiers have
been known to do a dirty deed or two, would not be there to keep the
Hungarians "in line."  If the citizens of Pecs and its environs are smart,
what they would do is jack up prices on food, drink, etc., in order to
fully benefit from the "American invasion."  They should just ask the
people of Zagreb....

I liked your post, Darren.  Perhaps the geographer in you may also
understand why Canadians have such a 'virulent anti-Americanism' (Ms.
Balogh's words).  Given our (Canadian) geographical location, who else could
we be virulently anti?  Greenland??  Az ellense'g majdnem mindig a szomsze'd.

Szia,

Joe Szalai

I  wrote:

>     It is possible that I have missed some of KJ's more offensive posts, as I
> have seen little from him that would make me personally take such a drastic
> step as you are taking, and I really hope that you and your successor's are
> able to correctly discern what should be deemed suitable, as I think that
> Hungary has already suffered enough from truth filtering.

> ... I would be curious about the particular cases that led to such
> an opinion about the Hungary list.
> Unless, of course, you mean the country, not the mailing list....

I do indeed mean the country, the mailing list I have found to be as
"unfiltered" as any group.

> may I just also observe that Hungary (the country) has also suffered
> tremendously from spreading ethnic hatred, something that is in my view
> much more serious than simply filtering the truth.....
> ...Indeed, to use your terminology, taking ethnic hatred out of the
> discussions on Hungary (the mailing list) is aimed at filtering the
> UNtruths....

I can only look at the traffic on the list through non-Hungarian eyes, I
dislike the distorting and censoring of history and news that occurred
throughout the countries "influenced" by the former communist system. (Not to
say that this doesn't occur in any society, even today, just that this was
more absolute)
I will have to tread carefully here as it is difficult to explain, but here
goes...the general impression that I have received from differing sources of
the net is that Central European "cultures" do seem to be far more prone to
intense ethnic zeal (as opposed to racial or religious) than most others, and
I had grown to class this as "normal". This ethnic hatred may be undesirable,
or my impression of it may be false, I am not sure which. If my impression IS
false, then filtering out KJ may align the list closer to the reality that
Hungary (the country culture etc) is.

>... such free speech are not desirable in civilized society.

I must agree, and think that certain things should not be tolerated, it is
however an unenviable task determining both the "trigger point" and the action
to take.


My ten cents worth.....

    GarryC

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Garry Collins wrote:

>     It is possible that I have missed some of KJ's more offensive posts, as I
> have seen little from him that would make me personally take such a drastic
> step as you are taking, and I really hope that you and your successor's are
> able to correctly discern what should be deemed suitable, as I think that
> Hungary has already suffered enough from truth filtering.

Interesting.  Without any intention of wanting to be adversarial to your
observation, I would be curious about the particular cases that led to such
an opinion about the Hungary list.

Unless, of course, you mean the country, not the mailing list.  In this case,
may I just also observe that Hungary (the country) has also suffered
tremendously from spreading ethnic hatred, something that is in my view
much more serious than simply filtering the truth.   Indeed, to use your
terminology, taking ethnic hatred out of the discussions on Hungary (the
mailing list) is aimed at filtering the UNtruths.  While this can reduce
the diversity of opinions on Hungary (the list), and may conflict with
some people's perception of free speech, I am firmly of the opinion that
such diversity and such free speech are not desirable in civilized society.

But, yes, as you suggest, in the end it all comes down to the judgement of
the list owner.

George Antony

> Hugh Agnew wrote...
> Dear fellow-listmembers:
> This morning, prompted by Mr. Kiss Janos's most recent "contribution"..
> ..setting the list parameters so that only subscribers..can post to the
> list.
> This list belongs to me by virtue of its creator and first listowner, Eric
> Dahlin, passing the torch on... My reputation, and that of my university,
> are touched by the nature and value of the list traffic--even if in
> miniscule ways.

I note that you say that the list belongs to you, in some ways I would agree
with you, but it can also be likened to a person who owns a baseball, bat and
mitt. It takes others to make a game, and I could argue that the list belongs
to the members.
    It is possible that I have missed some of KJ's more offensive posts, as I
have seen little from him that would make me personally take such a drastic
step as you are taking, and I really hope that you and your successor's are
able to correctly discern what should be deemed suitable, as I think that
Hungary has already suffered enough from truth filtering.

    Never mind, it is a "free" net, and just as KJ was able to post what he
liked, you are able to run this list ( a thankless task at the best of times,
and one that you do well ), hopefully to benefit the majority of list "users".

Regards,
        GarryC.


P.S. As the net at my work changed since I first signed on, I was unable to
send this message or even find out my old address even though I was still
getting the list.
Thanks to Hugh who changed me over so promptly!

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>
> >American teachers "taking over" universities can't be compared to tanks
> >rolling through the countryside.

Joe Szalai in reply
>
> No, it can't be compared because American domination of Canada is much more
> insidious.  One does not need tanks when you can dominate your neighbour
> culturally and economically.  If you need proof, just think of three things
> that are culturally Canadian.  If you can, I hope you'll share it with other
> readers of this list.  I'd like to know too.


Best question that I have seen in the debate re: Canada, and a good one
for Hungary as well. I don't think I can think of three truly
canadian things,
but one is a distinctive sense of humor, mounties (cultural symbols) , and
maybe the other
and the style of hockey. I hae been told it is far different than in the
US and in Europe at the lower levels of play.

However, given the base of European immigrants, (British dominated, my
apologies to the Quebecois but that is another culture and should be left
from this discussion for the moment) is it that surprising that
American/Canadian culture arose as they did? The geographer in me asks
these questions of localities, which leads me to eschew any idea of an
American culture. Commonalities yes, but ask a native Kentuckian about
the culture shock of interning in Washington D.C. (personal history) was
and you will find differences. Can we say a Canadian culture or American
culture exists? Are they simply forks in paths that started 3 centuries ago?

I ask this because the question of a common Magyar culture often spring
to mind when I think of my Magyar friends who live in Serbia or Romania
and they tell me that they have problems when they come to Hungary at
times.

Szervusztok,

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

Greg Grose wrote:

>Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>: >: Besides, America only gets involved if it is to its advantage.
>: >
>: > And what, pray, is our advantage in Bosnia?
>:
>: I really don't know, Greg.
>
>What a surprise...
>
>
>--Greg Grose

>
Your contribution to this debate leaves me breathless, Greg.  That quote of
mine must have 'made your day'.  Party on, dude.

Joe Szalai

James Doepp writes

>I think I might agree that you are a little on the paranoid side.
>Hungarians fought the Russians in the 1848 revolution, the Russians came
>through and "liberated" Hungary from the Germans, and their tanks rolled
>through Budapest in 1956.  Hence, there is a justified russo-phobia in
>Hungary.

Your are right.  Hungary, and Eastern Europe generally, has a justified
russo-phobia.

>American teachers "taking over" universities can't be compared to tanks
>rolling through the countryside.

No, it can't be compared because American domination of Canada is much more
insidious.  One does not need tanks when you can dominate your neighbour
culturally and economically.  If you need proof, just think of three things
that are culturally Canadian.  If you can, I hope you'll share it with other
readers of this list.  I'd like to know too.

>The US and Canada have had peaceful relations since the lines were drawn at
>the beginning of the 19th
>century.  The US is a democratic country, with fully developed democratic
>institutions, whereas Russia has never known democracy.  The foreign
>policy of the US, though not perfect, has in general been a positive
>force for democracy in the world.

I wouldn't build the alter of American democracy too high.  How were the
Americans promoting democracy in Chile when Allende was elected.  The US
also supported every tin pot dictator in Latin America as long as the
financial interests of the United Fruit Co. were secure.  How did that help
democracy?

>Russian foreign policy has a history
>of imperialism.  Soviet foreign policy was even worse, not only creating
>an empire, but destroying cultures and crushing peoples with carrying out
>its propaganda of "international socialism".

I'm not sure that American foreign policy was much different from Soviet
foreign policy.  They just operated in different parts of the world.  In
this century, the US has sent the troops into central America more often
than the Soviets have invaded eastern Europe.  Both nations have a history
of imperialism.  (No doubt Joe Pannon will see this as another 'code' word.)

>To compare Russia to the US in this way is, paraphrasing the American
>politician Jack Kemp:  seeing one man push an old lady in front of a
>moving bus, and another man pushing an old lady out of under the bus, and
>condemning both men for pushing old ladies around.
>
>On the other hand, perhaps Mr. Szalai's problem isn't paranoia, but
>jealousy...?

I don't think so, unless you think that being critical of a nations foreign
policy is a problem.

Szia

Joe Szalai

Greg Collins wrote:

> I can only look at the traffic on the list through non-Hungarian eyes, I
> dislike the distorting and censoring of history and news that occurred
> throughout the countries "influenced" by the former communist system.

Agreed.  You must also realize, however, that there is another 'school' of
distortions, namely the extreme nationalist (or ethnicist) one.  The latter
had well-established traditions before the communist takeover (not in the
xUSSR, of course), and it is nowadays on the rebound.  Scylla and Charybdis,
I am afraid.

> ...the general impression that I have received from differing sources of
> the net is that Central European "cultures" do seem to be far more prone to
> intense ethnic zeal (as opposed to racial or religious) than most others,

I think the proneness to ethnic zeal is quite true, but I think that there
is also an overflow into racial and religious zeal too, although not to the
extent that one can witness in the Balkans and beyond.

> I had grown to class this as "normal".

That is a sad state of affairs.  Prevalent: yes.  General: no, though
extent depends on the country.  Normal: definitely not, not even in
parentheses.

> This ethnic hatred may be undesirable,

IMO, ethnic hatred, by definition, IS undesirable.  More than that, it is an
abomination, demonstrating lack of maturity and a fundamental insecurity
with one's own ethnicity.  Again IMO, dispensing with ethnic hatred, and
even with animosity, is a sign of maturity.  Viz. Switzerland, Germany,
France, Austria, Italy vs Hungary and her neighbours.

> or my impression of it may be false, I am not sure which. If my impression IS
> false, then filtering out KJ may align the list closer to the reality that
> Hungary (the country culture etc) is.

No, unfortunately, the likes of JK can be found in Hungary, so filtering him
and his comrades out would take one away from the Hungarian reality.  My point
is that what JK is on about is repulsive enough not to fit into the scheme of
a modern, tolerant society, and that this point must be made abundantly clear
to people who may be leaning his way.

Sure, filtering out JK and his like may make the ethnicist views in Hungarian
society less obvious to some non-Hungarian observers.  However, I have a
Hungarian perspective on this, and want to see the ethnicist opinion within
Hungarian society clearly branded, marginalized and eventually shrivelling on
the vine.  Ditto in Hungary's neighbouring countries, for this is the only
way of solving the 'problem' of Hungarian minorities in Central Europe.

If we go in the other direction, and after the pressure-cooker of communism
fell apart we slipped in the other direction, we may end up the same way
the peoples of the Balkans did.  That would be a disaster, and it must be
prevented.

George Antony

Szalai 'joe' writes:

> >
> The other day you said that my 'anti-Americanism' was like a virus.  Now I
> am also paranoid.  Are you moonlighting as a quack???
>
> Joe Szalai
>

I think I might agree that you are a little on the paranoid side.
Hungarians fought the Russians in the 1848 revolution, the Russians came
through and "liberated" Hungary from the Germans, and their tanks rolled
through Budapest in 1956.  Hence, there is a justified russo-phobia in
Hungary.

American teachers "taking over" universities can't be compared to tanks
rolling through the countryside.  The US and Canada have had peaceful
relations since the lines were drawn at the beginning of the 19th
century.  The US is a democratic country, with fully developed democratic
institutions, whereas Russia has never known democracy.  The foreign
policy of the US, though not perfect, has in general been a positive
force for democracy in the world.  Russian foreign policy has a history
of imperialism.  Soviet foreign policy was even worse, not only creating
an empire, but destroying cultures and crushing peoples with carrying out
its propaganda of "international socialism".

To compare Russia to the US in this way is, paraphrasing the American
politician Jack Kemp:  seeing one man push an old lady in front of a
moving bus, and another man pushing an old lady out of under the bus, and
condemning both men for pushing old ladies around.

On the other hand, perhaps Mr. Szalai's problem isn't paranoia, but
jealousy...?