Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Wake up Yuri, and look around you! (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: George Soros Founds Charter Europe (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: CORRESPONDENCE WITH NOBLE (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Istvannak es a Magyar listanak (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
5 ha nem is baratsag, talan egy kis bekeszunet? (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: LE HUNS OR LE GYPSY? (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Igy irnak o"k (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
8 Reaching the limits? (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
9 software Kapcsolat (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Odor Tibor levele G. Fischernek (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: George Soros (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: American scams made it to Hungary (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar ? (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
14 Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar ? (Was: Istvannak es (mind)  125 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Igy irnak o"k (mind)  653 sor     (cikkei)
16 magyar-lengyel tortenelmi kapcsolatok (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Wake up Yuri, and look around you! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Laszlo Horvath wrote:
> Either your ignorance is abysmal or your bias (in favor of Russia and
> communism) so profound that you cannot see a couple of elementary things:
> 1. There were no Soviet troops in Norway

speaking of "abysmal" ignorance... There are several places in Norway
with monuments to Russian soldiers. I guess locals just erected them 
being too drunk.

> 2. The Austrians escaped the yoke of communism (and the Soviet troops
> after a while) as the result of an international treaty

and your point is ... ?

> 3. In the other countries you mention communism and communist parties
> came into power exactly because Soviet troops were present and forced the
> religion of the "great Soviet people" and of their "pope Stalin" on
> enslaved peoples of those countries.
see below

> It's incredible that someone, living in Ohio, USA, emailing from an email
> address, having ".edu" part of that address, speaking with a language
> right out of some Gus Hall type of pamphlet or out of the pages of the
> bolshaia encyclopedia (the Soviet/Stalinist/communist version of
> history).

[several pages of irrelevant stuff deleted]

I wonder how much time you wasted writing all that stuff.
There must be something wrong with your sense of inductive reasoning, or
you are just one of those pathological Russophobes. If the latter is
I've got two words for you: too bad. If not, here are some clues.

First of all, I am not trying to advocate commies.
In fact, I despise commies to the same degree I despise nazies.
The point of my post was that Soviets never faced any significant
resistance in Eastern Europe. (Examples of significant resistance:
Civil War in Russia - est. 20-25 mln. dead, Finland, 
Bandera movement in Ukraine, Lithvinian "Forest Brothers", Afganistan,
Nothing _remotely_ close happened in E.Europe. Don't give me Hungary'56
Prague'68 - these were minor incidents. Most of the E. Europe
with Soviets, more or less, just like they collaborated with nazies
you name sounds Croatian to me. If you are Croatian, you must know a lot
about collaboration with nazies).

In short, if you really hate smth, you try to get rid of it no matter
But if you go along with it for more than 40 years, simply whining now
and when, 
you do not deserve any sympathy, support or respect.

> You, and
> all Russians, should be glad that world public opinion (and capitalist
> purses) are so much kinder to you than it was to the Germans.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about whatever public opinion or purses
you are talking about. At least, my grand-greatfathers did not bend with
asses wide open before commies, like most of you guys did, but fought
them - on
Don, Perekop and Tambov. They didn't win, but at least they stood up. I
you could say the same about your ancestors.

+ - Re: George Soros Founds Charter Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kivetelesen ujfent egyetertunk.  De idonkent en is fel tudok duhodni!

+ - Re: CORRESPONDENCE WITH NOBLE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  
>Hi friends,
>I desire correspond with Noble of the Arabia, of Marocco, Emirates 
>Arabs, Africans, Oman,
>India, Qatar, Middle East, etc.
>I answer all.
>I am 17 years old and am Italian and alive in the City of Como. my Hobby 
>the Heraldry, the history, the geography, the tennis, etc.
>Thank you. 
>Prince Giovanni Terzaghi y Pilo Boyl

And may I ask why you posted your message on the magyar (Hungarian) list?

+ - Re: Istvannak es a Magyar listanak (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
>aheringer > wrote 
>> >Biztos, azt akarod hogy, oreg, alacsony, kopasz, kover, magyarok 
>> >irkaljon neked leveleket? 
>> >Istvan
>> > 
>> En is alacsony vagyok, oreg es kover (nem kopasz).  Nem akarok 
>> hozzamenni felesegul.  De bar mindenki ugy gondolkodna ahogy Dominus. 
>> Sokkal intelligensebben valaszolt, mint ahogy en valaha is meg tudnam 
>> fogalmazni a mondanivalomat - ezert nem is valaszoltam a maga 
>> provokaciojara - Dominus valaszolt helyettem es nagyon halas vagyok 
>> Agnes
>Akkor minden rendbe van mert nekem is tetszettek Dominus levelei.  Talan 
>nem is oreg, alacsony, kopasz, meg kover.  Kulonben is, en nagyon boldog
>hazas vagyok (a felesegem itt al mogottem es mondta, hogy ezt irjam), es
>nem tudom megkerni felesegul.  Talan Dominus?

En sem vagyok venkisasszony....

+ - ha nem is baratsag, talan egy kis bekeszunet? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

aheringer > wrote
> En sem vagyok venkisasszony....
> Agnes
Kedves Agnes!

A vilagert se gondoltam!

En Ont (Magat, Teged, etc.) nem ismerem es semmi rossz indulatom nincs On
irant.  Ami a haboru alatti zsido oldoklest illeti, nagyon szeretnem ha az
sohase tortent volna.  Csak nem kepzel valamilyen szornyetegnek?

Amikor megmondom a magamet nem probalom 'provokalni', csak megmondom es

Meg csak annyit tudok mondani, hogy remelem, hogy kellemessen telnek a
napjai es nem bosszankodik sokat.  Az egesz HUNGARY listan csak kettore
haragszok; Monoki es Balogh.  Ha a Monoki a fejere al meg akkor is utalni
fogom, mert a mocskos kommunistakat utalom.  Ha a Balogh holnaptol kezdve
nem irna olyan gonoszul hazankrol angolul akkor nem lenne semmi bajom vele.

Onnel semmi szemelyes problemam nincs.

Tisztelettel: Istvan
+ - Re: LE HUNS OR LE GYPSY? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Yes lets get a few things quite clear. Hungarians are not Turks, Huns or
Mongols not that they had no assosciations to the first two due to their
history. As far as some racists trying to claim us to be Mongoloid
origin. Only one who never saw a Hungarian would say that. Not that we
dont have any recent Chinese immigrants roaming the streets. If the
Slovaks insist on using such labels than obviously they too are Mongols
cause there certainly has been a lot of intermarrying between them
and Hungarians. All their stupid animosity comes down to farytales not
reasonable reasons. If they were able to live as Hungarian citizens for
over 1,000 years and prosper and maintain their language then who are
they to compare to such generosity when they try to destroy every 
trace of Hungarian culture in their own land and pass laws against 
their useage of their language, thereby break the treaties they sign
almost as soon as the ink dries. They are racists, biggots and liars.
But then who cares today when everyone believes whatever suits their 
own purpose in a liberal-mish mash society.  They more people believe 
some nonsense the more true it becomes. Yeah sure..
Fred Hamori

Hungarian areas a
+ - Re: Igy irnak o"k (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>  Ami a legjobb az az, hogy ujabban ugyanarrol a cimrol szinte "tudomanyos
> igenyu" cikkek jonnek Mongoliaval kapcsolatban.
> Pannon J.
> ----------
Ugyanarrol a cimrol? Lehetseges,ahogy 
angolul mondjak," several creatures are able to 
live under the same rock"

+ - Reaching the limits? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From the OMRI News:

>Victor Ciorbea, after promising shortly before his visit to Budapest
>earlier this month to reopen the Hungarian-language Bolyai University in
>Cluj, now says the final say will depend on the existing Babes-Bolyai
>University's faculty senate, because universities enjoy autonomy, Radio
>Bucharest reported on 17 March. Ciorbea and President Emil
>Constantinescu had earlier clarified that the Hungarian university,
>closed in 1958, would re-open as a Hungarian section within the unified
>Babes-Bolyai university (see OMRI Daily Digest, 14 March 1997).
>Ciorbea's recent statement was made at a meeting with the university's
>two ethnic Romanian deputy rectors, who oppose the move and have
>threatened to resign in protest.

So there we are again.  If it's going to depend on some Romanian
nationalists jelously guarding their turf, there won't be any re-opening
of the Hungarian university.  This is in effect a de facto admission by
the Romanians that they like the past anti-Hungarian actions and don't
I want to rectify them.  I guess I let my optimism carry too far this
time.  I should have listened to those who cautioned me about this. 

Joe Pannon
REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP
+ - software Kapcsolat (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kapcsolatot szeretnek talalni Budapesti software cegegekel akik az
orvosi/klinikai vonalon mukodnek.

email to 
+ - Re: Odor Tibor levele G. Fischernek (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

+ - Re: George Soros (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

<<'56-ban volt egy vicc. Ugyan nem a NATOrol, de az ENSZ rol:
 - Mi van az ENSZ lobogojara irva?
     - "Leben und leben hagyni" 
I think it's just as revelant today as it was then.
Dominus et pax vobiscum>>

A Leben und Leben lassen hagyomanyosan is meg ma is azt jelenti: fejd az
adofizetoket az allamon keresztul jo liberal, es hagyd hogy masok is
fejjek. Pfuj.
+ - Re: American scams made it to Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Ezt honnan veszed, hogy kulfoldi magyarok a ludasok ebben?  Olvastal
> errol valami statisztikat?

Nem, de tudok esetekrol.

> >Meg az a szerencsenk, hogy a legtobb othoni magyar nem olvassa a magyar
> >listakat.  Akkor aztan tenyleg szoba se alnanak velunk.

> Plane amikor egy kulfoldi magyar allit ilyeneket!

Magyarul probalok targyalni egy komoly problemarol.  A szelhamosok
szeretnek a sotetben ugyeskedni.

+ - Re: Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Erika Kiss wrote:
> Ines Weber wrote:
> >
> > RT765 wrote:
> > >
> > > Gustavo baby, tolk to me Austo-Hungarian.( EMPIRE?) - Who ,Where , Why?.
> > >
> > > I am impressed.
> > > Is This  a FANCY way to describe the MONGOLS?
> >
> > May I advise all my friends on scm NOT to become involved with this
> > poster of Romanian background who spreads racial, anti-semitic and
> > otherwise shows his complete illiteracy also on soc. culture romanian.
> > Such people deserve only our contempt.
> >
> > Ines
> > --
> > ?_ 
> I couldn't agree more. Don't let him to provoke any of us! If we leave his
> messages unanswered perhaps he stops sending them. Am I too optimistic here?
> ;-)
> Üdv
> Erika

No, you are perfectly right.  Not answering him will eventually make him
give this garbage up.

+ - Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar ? (Was: Istvannak es (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Istvan Lippai"  writes:
 >I would also hope that we remember that regardless of our
> religious or national origin, we are all Hungarians, if we want to be. 
> Istvan   
Well said Istvan, let's hope for it.
However the question I put earlier remained unanswered; so I try to answer 
Who is a Magyar, what is a Magyar?
In our view the Magyars are (similarly to todays Jews, where we can see a rathe
wide scale of skin colors from the Scandinavian blonde to the Etiopian ebony 
black) not a race. "Nem a faj hanem a fajta !" This is due to the ancient 
Turanian habit that amalgamated the remaining members of most defeated enemy 
nations into their own victorious nation. You see, the melting pot is not reall
an American invention! It was excercised by our  "barbarian" ancestors thousand
of years ago. Here I would answer the earlier question about the mentioned seve
chieftains. To know their names might be good, but an other aspect would be eve
more interesting. Those chieftains were not the leaders of seven Magyar tribes 
but leaders of one way or the other related but different "nations". The major 
tribe, (the fighters) were, of course the Magyars. The number seven in this 
legend is somewhat questionable. This legend was put into writing well after 
this happened, so my opinion is that this number might be the result of their 
new religions' kaballistic tradition. In reality the starting number was ten. 
Hence onogur=ten tribes. The supposed seven tribes only merged into those ten 
that were already in the Carpathean basin. This also explains why are we named 
in the West as Ungar-isch, H-ungar-ian, etc., while in East where one time we 
were more recognized, people casually refer to us as madzsar-i.
The first well known act (that should be re-read ) is the legend of the 
"Csodaszarvas"  this would shed some light amongs others on the "finn-ugor" 
(ogur ?) connection.  
We also had the "Jasz"-Persian and the "Kun" aka. Kumani aka. Kipchak-Turks 
peoples incorporated, not to speak about the tribe of S-K-L aka. Sikil or as it
is better known today Szekely. I would also hypothesize that after the 150 yrs.
long Ottoman rule we got a rather good portion of Turkish blood into our 
"circulatory system". Our fathers before their settlement have lived for a very
long time in the neighbourhood of peoples who followed monotheotic faiths. This
explains the undisputable fact that amongst Arpad's people not only the 
Shamanistic but the also Christian (as a matter of fact a more pure version of 
it, than the one that was forced upon them all, later on ) and also the Islamic
and the Judaistic faiths were represented as well. So to be a Magyar is nothing
else than an ideology  reinforced by a unique language and culture requiring 
sympathy and some commitment to our the endless struggle to survive. If all of 
these are not enough to "prove" the melting pot theory than let's review about 
the  "side-benefits" of the Austro-Hungarian dual monarchy. 
First I would mention our friend Mr. Lippai's  favorite writer Geza Ziegler who
received his teachers certificate in 1882.  He might be better known tough by 
his pen-name: Geza Gardonyi. Then I should mention the son of Sandor Petrovics 
and Ilona Hruz. (I hope everybody still knows who he was ! ) Then comes Lajos 
Kossuth the son of a Slovak father and a German mother; -or what about Mihaly 
Tancsics or the large parts of the Martyrs of Arad. Not to mention the fact tha
the "Greatest Hungarian" was more than thirty years of age when he finally 
deserted the German language and the Austrian royal ghetto and acquired the 
language of his ancestors. If we fly back in time even more here come the 
Zrinyi, Frangepan and Rakoczi families and also Mathias Corvinus and his father
Janos/Jank(o) Hunyadi, just to mention a few. All of these people and many more
proved that despite their German, Slovakian, Croatian and God knows what other 
origin they had a real Hungarian heart that felt for their country. If they 
could prove this let's hope that some of the Galicians that came to us 
could/would follow their examples. During the more than thousand years long 
fight unfortunately the most courageous, the most heroic and most patriotic 
section in our nation was decimated or left the country. This caused the sorry 
state we are presently in. However  Providence takes care that even the most 
degenerated part of the species carry the genes of their better forefathers. 
Knowing this our case is not lost while in our blood still pulsates and in our 
genes burns the ancient Turan. 
The other cardinal point of this exercise is Hungary/Magyarorszag. As we have 
seen this day and age the defining fact for our country not so much the origin 
of it's population, but rather their attachment and maintenance to their 
language and unique culture, and also the common goals that keep them together.
This is best represented by the national flag and the (supposed)
oath to that national flag. That is after all what flags were invented for.
The only question is: what flag ? No doubt the presently used crowned national 
crest was welcomed in Hungary because of it's long hiatus and banishment from 
the part of the former communist goverments and it's long unrequested American 
presence . However it would be high time to recognize that (except from the 
short period in the recent past when the Hungarian Kingdom had no king at all) 
in real life this crown and all it represents is alien from this nation. From 
the very beginning it represented interests different from that of the nation 
just as much in the past as it does today. In parallel it is interesting to 
recall how the communist constitution was forced upon the people in a blink of 
an eye by Rakosi and his cronies, but so far (almost a decade's time after the 
demise of the communist system) was not a chance to get rid of it. Just as much
as we have a need for a new constitution, based on our real culture, traditions
our prefered way of life and national interest we need an other national symbol
that is not based on any ideology. Neither the red-star that tried to grab five
continents  nor the symbol of the religious based trojan-horse of western 
imperialism. This wish was recognized by our wise elders who deleted it in 1848
1946 and in 1956 as well. This view is further reinforced by the fact that it's
"issuer" would not even stand by it's only benefit ie. the recognizing the rule
over the lands it was "issued" for. Also a follower of a Reformed Christian 
faith could never legally wear it since it virtually belonged not so much to th
Magyars but to (a) follower(s) to the Church of Rome. Easy to see it would be 
more practical to choose a symbol that mutually acceptable to all of us. What 
could be more suitable for this than our only surviving national symbol of the 
western cultural slaughter -the TURUL. 
I urge everyone who is somewhat concerned to recognize and consider the aboves.
The door (as it has always been) is open. 
Whoever wants to join in and say the oath, be welcomed; 
-for others the door is also open.
Gustav Horvath
Turanian Association
+ - Re: Igy irnak o"k (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
n.com () writes:

Man, I was amused reading your article. You really showed us, haven't you?
Some things: why on Earth should Hungarians have a 'complex of inferiority' in
historical sense to Romanians? Anyway, have you ever read history books 
printed and sold outside of Romania? Do you know the main reason of that
idiotic Hungarian-Romanian contrary? You must know something about the
Hun-Hungarian relationship; if you have time, please consult some historian,
for they might be interested... 
About your pride: early Hungarians invaded the Carpatian Basin some thousand
years ago, and settled a Christian kingdom. Romania's first king is from the   
19th century. And about complex: Romania's and Slovakia's anti-minority-policy
not only hurts native Hungarians (remember: 1000 years), but Germans, Gypsies,
I find really disgusting your nationalist attitude toward Gypsies, Hungarians,
and others who are not Romanians. Refer to the Netiquette, please.
I'm waitinig for your further opinion.
Andras Donaszi 
> From  Tue Mar 11 00:26:59 1997
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.romanian
> Date: 10 Mar 1997 20:16:21 GMT
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Lines: 646
> Message-ID: >
> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com
> X-Admin: 
> There are some Huns (Hungarians) and other barbarians who has a complex of
> inferiority
> (mainly in a historical sense).
> These barbarians are trying desperately to show a connection between
> Romanians and 
> Rom ( Gypsy). For example the Hungarians ( Huns) insist that Gypsy should
> be called
> and spelled in a manner attracting confusion, that is:
> Romanies,Romani,Roma,etc.
> Whatever spelling approach they take Romanians still remain Romans,
> Gypsies remain
> Gypsies and Hungarians remain Huns.
> We should remained the barbarians that the Gypsies were enslaved in
> Romania and sold
> abroad to the Huns and others where they intermixed with the native
> papulation, creating
> a mixed race ( in the case of Hungary, a race of Huno-Gypsies).
> In Romania the opposite happened. The Romanians were punished by
> enslavement if 
> marry a Gypsy.
> Take a load of this from a Gypsy writer (David Crowe):
> "In the long course of the Gypsy experience in Eastern Europe, none has
> been worse than that in Romania.Within several centuries after Gypsies
> entered the medieval provinces of Wallachia and Moldavia, they began to be
> enslaved, a condition that lasted until the mid nineteenth century.
> Although slavery was not a condition peculiar to Gypsies or the Balkans at
> the time, the deep-seated, dehumanizing prejudice that has characterized
> the historic Romanian relationship with Gypsies produced a socioeconomic
> caste system that resulted in the "social death" of Gypsies as Romanian
> slaves"
> Ooo Baby Make my day.
> Some countries spell Romania with an "u" and some with an "a".
> Whatever the spelling is the Romanians are still descendants of the Romans
> not Huns 
> or other barbarians.
> Romanians spelled their name as Rumans for the period of time when
> Slavonic was used 
> as the language of the Church. Rumans being the correct spelling in
> Slavonic for Romans.
> Latter on when Slavonic was replaced by Latin the Romanians changed the
> "u" for "o" which 
> is very appropriate for a LATIN.
> TAKE A LOAD OF SOME GOOD STAFF( For the Huns and other barbarians to
> learn):
>                                                          (WALACHIANS)
> Note: In the following article I used Romanians (Vlachs ) = ROMANS. The "
> = " sign should be interpreted as: direct descendants of the Romans,
> people connected culturaly, racialy  to the Romans,
> (as it is suggested by the chronicles).
> The Romanians were known in the past as:
> VALACHUS (By the Catholic West)
> FLACI (By catholic West)
> IFLAK (By the Turks)
> VLASI & VOLOH (By the Slavs)
> OLAH &BLACH (By the Hungarians)
> OLAHOK (By the Hungarians)
> OLASZOK (The Hungarian name for the Italians)
> WALACH (By the Germans)
> WALSCHER (The German name for the Italians)
> BLACHOS & VLACHOS (By the Greeks)
> BLOCH (By the Saxons in Transilvania)
> WOLOSZY (By the Polish)
> WLOCHI (The Polish name for the Italians)
> In old German WALH = ROMAN
> In old slavonic VLAST = POWER(considered of Gothic origin)
> In old slavonic VLAST = GIGANTE/GOD
> Romanians always called themselves ROMANS & RUMANS.Their  neighbors called
> them Vlachs,Vlasi,Olahs,etc.
>>From "De administrando imperio".Constantine's surname, PORPHYROGENITUS
> (that is, born in the Purple Chamber of the Imperial Palace in
>  "The emperor Diocletian was much enamored of the country of Dalmatia, and
> he brought folk with their families from ROME and settled them in this
> same country of Dalmatia, and they were called ROMANI (VLACHS) from their
> having been removed from ROME, and this title attaches to them until this
> day..."
> "The territory possessed by the ROMANI (VLACHS) used to extend as far as
> the river Danube"
> (Constantine shows that the ROMANS (Latins, NOT Greek Romans or
> Byzantines) or Vlachs are the original Romans.
> "The country of the ZACHLUMI  was previously possessed by the ROMANS, I
> mean, by those ROMANI (VLACHS) whom Diocletian the emperor translated from
> (Constantine is talking about the Imperial Romans,who are going to be
> known under the name of VLACHS).
> "These same CROATS arrived to claim the protection of the emperor of the
> Romans Heraclius before the SERBS claimed the protection of the same
> emperor Heraclius, at that time when the Avars had fought and expelled
> from those parts the ROMANI (VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian had
> brought from Rome and settled there, and who were therefore called ROMANI
> (VLACHS) from their having been translated from ROME to those
> countries..."
> "The country of Diocleia was also previously possessed by the ROMANI
> (VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME"
> "And sice what is now Serbia and Pagania and the so-called Kanalites were
> under the dominion of the emperor of the Romans, and since these countries
> had been made desolate by the AVARS (for they had expelled from those
> parts the ROMANI (VLACHS) who now live in Dalmatia and Dyrrachium)"
> "The country in which the PAGANI  now dwell was also previously possessed
> by the ROMANI(VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME and
> settled in Dalmatia".
> "At that time when the Avars had fought and expelled from those parts the
> ROMANI(VLACHS) whom the emperor Diocletian had brought from ROME and
> settled there,and who therefore called ROMANI from their having been
> translated from ROME to those countries"
> SUMMARY: In his description of the Greek Roman Empire,we can definitely
> identify two people,the Imperial Romans(VLACHS-those Romans  who initiated
> the empire),called by Constntine,ROMANI, and the Greek
> Romans(BYZANTINES-those Romans who adopted GREEK as the language of the
> State and Church).
> Giulio Ruggiero, Abbot ( in a report addressed to Pope PIUS 5, 1568).
> "..., Sono questi Vallachi per antica origine Italiani, per esser colonia
> de Romani, condotta da Flacco, la quale con vocabolo corrotto vogliono
> molti che siano detti Vallachi"
> Pierre Lescalopier, French lowyer (1574).After visiting Romanian
> Principalities.
> "Tout ce pays ( la Walacchie) et Moldauie et la plus part de Transiluanie
> a este peuple des colonies romaines du temps de Traian l'empereur; le
> capitaine se nommoit Flaccus qui a donne ce nom nouueau au pays de Flacchi
> et par glissement de langue Wlacchie. Ceux du pays se disent vrays
> successeurs des Romains et nomment leur parler romanechte c'est a dire
> romain; la plus part de leurs parolles sont demies italiennes et demies
> latines meslees de grec et de baragouin. Ilz ont en fort grande horreur le
> pape et l'Eglise romaine et honorent comme Dieu leurs vaiuodatz"
> Giovani  Francesco Commendone (1523-1584), Prist. Presents a short
> description to Pope Grigore 13,   about the origins of the Vlachs.
> "Valachia, id est Italia, vocatur veloc enim Italum Sarmathae siscunt, nam
> Valochi non modo disciplinae romanae mores et leges ceras hactenus
> retinent, sed ipsa quoque latinae linguae vocabula plurima suo idiomate,
> quod illiricum est, admiserunt..."
> Antonio Possevino (1533-1611), Episcope. In his mission to Transylvania
> writes a report to Pope Grigore 13.
> "Principi di Moldavia et Vallachia, poiche sono discesi da ROMANI, dei
> quali ancora ritengono il nome, et, come si spera, anco l'amore..."
> Ferrante Capeci (1549-1589), Napolitan Prist.
> "E la Transilvania habitata da tre sorti di persone, et tutti hanno lingue
> distint. Valachi, I quali sono I piu antichi habitatori e descendono da
> italiani e longobardi. Onde hanno lingua simile all'italiana moderna, tal
> che fra pochi mesi si potrebbe bene imparar la loro lingua; come essi anco
> facilmente imparano l'italiano. Anzi essi si chiamano romaneschi..."
> POPE CLEMENT 6 (1342-1352).
> "Olachi Romani,commorantes in partibus Ungariae,Transilvanis,Ultralpinis
> et Sirmus"
> (In Hungary,Transilvania,Muntenia and Sirmia live the Roman-Vlachs)
> or
> "Tam nobilibus quam popularibus Olachis Romanis"
>  POPE PIUS II (1458-1464) (Commentarium rerum memorabilium).
> "VALACHI lingua utuntur Italica, verum imperfecta, et admodum corrupta;
> sunt qui legiones Romanas eo missas olim censeant adversus Dacos, qui eas
> terras incolebant; legionibus Flaccum quendam praefuisse, a que Flacci
> primum,deinde Valachi, mutatis litteris, sint appellati;quorum posteri (ut
> ante relatum est) "
> Summary: (The Vlachs are a people of Roman origin, born from an antic
> Roman Imperial colony, speaking a language close to Latin or Italian).
> Nicolaus Machinensis, episcop of Modrussa ( DALMATIA).
> "Inferiora vero quaecumque Ister Boristenesque intercipt usque ad Ponti
> ripas Valacchi obtinent,
> romani quondam vel exules vel milites, a duce Flacco ita cognominati, nunc
> immutatione litterae Vlacchi appellati: quo vocabulo non modo ea gens sed
> omnes quoque finitimae nationes hodie Italos nominant. Valacchi originis
> suae illud praecipuum prae se ferunt argumentum quod, quamvis Mysorum
> lingua quae illyrica est omnes utantur, vernaculo tamen sermone, hoc est
> latino haud prorsus obsoleto ab incunabulis loquuntur; et cum ignotis
> congressi, dum linguae explorant comertium, an ROMANAE loqui norint
> interrogant".
> Janus Pannonius.Hungarian Humanist, Poet (1434-1472).
> "Sarmatici montes et vos septemplici Istri 
> Caerulea Euxinio cornua mixta Mari,
> Ac tu Romanis olim possessa colonis
> Sed iam corrupto, barbara rerra, sono 
> Quid dominum lentis longe retinetis in armis?"
> Alessandro Cortesi. Poet, (1469-1491)
> "An procul expusos Nomadas, serasque luentes
> Pastores rupto Siculos pro foedere poenas?
> Trinacriae Siculos quondam, Schythiaeque colonos,
> Fortia magnanimos praebentes colla Valachos,
> Qui referunt prisca Roamanam ab origine gentem?"
> POPE Innocent III (in  a latter from 1203).
> "Therefore, we, who have been appointed by the will of GOD and
> Father,unworthy as we are, as vicars and successors of the Apostolic See,
> to prove by the force of facts our fatherly love for the Church of the
> Bulgarians and ROMANIANS (VLACHS),who are said to be THE DESCENDENTS OF
> THE ROMANS,by their flesh and blood"
> POPE Innocent III (in a letter addressed to IONITA, lord of the Bulgarians
> and Romanians,from 1203)
> "Thus, taking this into account, we have decided since long, through our
> envoy or our letters, that we should pay a visit to your lordship, so
> that,realizing your faith to the Roman Church,Your Mother, we might then
> ROMANS...As, he (God the Father) will help you to be a ROMAN in this
> wordily life and for your Eternal Salvation by your own striving, the same
> as you are BY YOUR DESCENT; and he shall help the people of your country,
> which say that they are the ROMANS, blood and flesh".
> Enea Silvio Piccolomini, "Cosmography" 1501.
> "Transilvania...,it is inhabited by three peoples: the Saxons, the
> Szecklers and the ROMANIANS.
> The Saxons had come from Saxony,and are strong men,used to the
> struggle...The Szecklers are considered the most ancient Hungarians...,The
> ROMANIANS are of Italian stock..., A colony of the ROMANS was settled
> there (Dacia) to keep a tight rein over Dacians under the leadership of a
> certain Flaccus, after whose name the coutry was called Flacohia and its
> inhabitants were called VLACHS instead of Flacci. This people speaks now a
> ROMAN idiom, although partly changed,and hardly understood by an Italian".
> Francesco della Valle,1532,(Secretary of Aloisio Gritti,a natural son to
> Doge Andrea Gritti).
> "The Romanians(Vlachs) are of Italian stock, and according to them, they
> are the descendants of the ANCIENT ROMANS".
> The anonymous notary of King Bela, "Gesta Hungarorum".
> "For, after king Attila's death,the ROMANS called the soil of Panonia a
> graze field as,their herds used to graze in the country of Panonia.And
> they were right in calling the Panonian soil the grazing fields of the
> ROMANS, as even nowadays, the ROMANIANS(Vlachs) feed their sheep on the
> Hungarian estates".
> IOAN KINNAMOS (Imperial secretary under two Byzantine emperors, Manuel I &
> Andronic)
> "It is said about the Vlachs that they are the old descendents of those
> from Italy".
> Poggio Bracciolini (1380-1459),"Disceptationes convivales", Florentine
> Humanist.
> "Apud superiores Sarmatas colonia est ab Traiano ut aiunt derelicta, quae
> nunc etiam inter tantam barbariem multa retinet latina vocabula, ab
> Italis, qui eo profecti sunt, notata.
> Oculum dicunt, digitum, manum,panem,multaque alia quibus apparet ab
> Latinis, qui coloni ibidem relicti fuerunt, manasse eamque coloniam fuisse
> latino sermoneusam".
> Flavio Biondo. Humanist, (1392-1463).
> "Et qui e rgione Danubio item adiacent Ripenses Daci, sive
> Valachi,originem, quam ad decus prae se ferunt praedicantque ROMANAM,
> loquela ostendunt, quos catholice christianos ROMAN quotannis et
> Apostolorum limina invisentes, aliquando gavisi sumus ita loquentes
> audiri, ut, quae vulgari communique gentis suae more dicunt, rusticam male
> grammaticam redoleant latinitatem"
> NICOLAUS MACHINENSIS. Episcop of Dalmatia under Pope Pius II.
> "Inferiora vero quaecumque Ister Boristenesque intercipt usque ad Ponti
> ripas Valacchi obtinent, romani quondam vel exules vel milites, a duce
> Flacco ita cognominati, nunc immutatione litterae Vlacchi appellati: quo
> vocabulo non modo ea gens sed omnes quopue fimitimae nationes hodie Italos
> nominant".
> Janus Pannonicus (1434-1472), The most important Hungarian Humanist.
> "Sarmatici montes et vos septemplicis Istri
> Caerulea Euxinio cornua mixta Mari,
> Ac tu Romanis olim possessa colonis
> Sed iam corrupto, barbara terra, sono
> Quid domimum lentis longe retinetis in armis?".
> Filippo Buonaccorsi Callimaco (1438-1496), Italian Political Annalist.
> "Sed utcunque immensus uel infinitus potios, eadem ubuque lingua et
> praeter Romanorum coloniam Valachiam gentes omnes eadem primordia
> profitentes".
> "Fama nouae coloniae aliquamdiu motus Scuthios compescuit.Deinde non solum
> propulsantibus, sed egregie etiam inferentibus bellum Romanis datae
> acceptaeque sunt utrinque paene innumerabiles clades, cum pleraque a
> caesaribus supplementa et auxilia suis mitterentur".
> Jan Dlugosz (1415-1480),Polish Chronicler.
> "(1359) Stephano Moldaviae Voievodae, apud Valachos mortuo, quorum maiores
> et aboriginarii de Italiae Regno pulsi ( genus et natio Volscorum esse
> fuisseque creduntur) veteribus Dominis et colonis Ruthenis, primum sudole,
> deinde abundante in dies multitudine... ".
> Raffaelo Maffei Volterano (1506),Italian Humanist.
> "Eo quod Romanos, ut dixi, accepere colonos, pleraque uocabula loquuntur
> lingua semijtalica,argumento est nomen Valachiam enim appellant, quod
> Valach Italicum lingua ipsorum dicatur".
> Marcantonio Coccio (1436- 1506), Italian Historian.
> "Valachi italicum genus hominum: horum terram Daci olim tenuerunt: nunc
> Teutones, Siculi et Valachi tenent... Valachorum nobilissimi qui
> agriculturam et qui pecuariam exercent".
> Felix Petancici (1445-1517), Humanist from Ragusa (Dalmatia).
> "Haec est provincia Dacia dicta apud veteres, Romanorum colonia(unde eius
> aborigines hac etiam nostra tempestate) passim latino utuntur colloquio".
> Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.
> Joachim Vadian (1484-1551), Swiss Humanist.
> "Supra Cataractas Danubius, infra vero Ister dicitur, sunt autem hae
> maximae, intre montes Dacorum Straboni, eos hodie Iazigibus et
> Transiluanis subiunctos, Walachos nominant, vocabulo Boemis Sarmatisque
> uernaculo, quod inde natum uidetur, namque ‘ty Vlasschi' Italos nominant
> quos ibi consedisse ex Pannonicis Sarmaticisque Romanorum bellis
> constant,cum ne hodie quidem eorum lingua ab Italica multum sit absona".
> Stephan Taurinus (1485-1519), Moravian Humanist.
> "Valachia vulgo Latinis Vlaccia dicitur, provintia Pannoniae Cisdanubianae
> contermina in pontum usque descendens cum Damubo, veteres inferiorem
> Moesiam dixere, vide superius loco suo. Inde Vlacci Vlacciae populi, quos
> vulgus Valachos appellant".
> Johann Boemus (1520), German Humanist.
> "Sed ea Thraciae pars quae Gethica olim dicebat, vbi Darius Hidaspis
> filius pene perijt, hodie Valachia appellatur, a Flaccis quiritum gente,
> Rhomani enim Gethis superatis et deletis Flacci cuiusdam ductu eo Coloniam
> miserunt, vnde prumum Flaccia, dein corrupta voce Vallacia dicta".
> Sebastian Franck (1499-1543), German Humanist.
> "In didem landt (Walachia) haben ettwan das volck Gethe gewonet, die gross
> krieg gebraucht haben, zu letst mit den Rhomischen waffen ernider
> gerruckt, abgetilckt vnd mit yhrem volck besetzt, vnder dem Rhomischen
> hauptmann Flacco, von dem sy Flaccia nachmals vnlang Walachia gnant worden
> ist, das diss volcks spraach noch heut her meysttheyl Rhomisch ist, doch
> also corrumpiert, daz sy einem Rhomer kaum verstendtlich seind"
> Georg Rithaymer (1563), Austrian Humanist.
> "Valachi Italicum genus hominum in colonias huc missum, plane in mores
> Getarum abierunt, ita nihil antiquae originis suae retinent, praeter
> linguam quam barbare et corrupte conant".
> Nicolaus Olahus (1493-1568), Romanian (Vlach) Humanist.
> "Lingua, ritu, religione eadem Moldavi utuntur, qua Transalpini; vestitu
> aliqua saltem ex parte differunt...Sermo eorum et aliorum Valachorum fuit
> olim Romanus, vt qui sint coloniae Romanorum: nostra tempestate, maxime ab
> eo differt; praeterquam quod multa eorum vocabula, latinis sint
> intelligibilia...Valachi, Romanorum coloniae esse traduntur. Eius rei
> argumentum est, quod multa habeant communia cum idiomate Romano, cuius
> populi pleraque numismata, eo laci reperiuntur; haud dubie, magna
> vetustatis imperiique Romani istic indicia".
> Theodor Bibliander (1548),Swiss Humanist.
> "Post irruptiones Gothorum et Germanicarum gentium et Sclavinorum, atque
> lacerationem et ruinam, imperij, sermo provincialis degeneravit longius a
> sua origine, ut in provincia Daciae Vualachorum lingua, Vlasky enim Italum
> aut Walhen sonat Slavis. Idem accidit in Hispanijs, in Gallia, denique in
> ipsa Italia, in Latio, in urbe domina gentium et sede Romanae eloquentiae"
> Iacob Heraclid, Despot-Voda, Prince of Moldovia.
> "Con voi valenti homeni et gente bellicosa discesi dali valorosi Romani,
> quali hano fatto trmer il mondo... Et a questo se faremo cognoscer a tutto
> il mondo li veri Romani et discesi da queli et il nome nostro sara
> immortale et conergeremo l'imagine di nostri padri".
> Stanislaw Orzechowski (1513-1566), Polish Humanist.
> "Hi (sc. Daci) erant ex Italis Romanisque proceati, qui Duce Lucio Valerio
> Flacco cum Daciam occupavissent, in hisque Regionibus uxores duxissent, ac
> consenuissent, hoc Dacos reliquerunt, qui eorum lingua Romini a Romanis,
> nostra Walachi, ab Italis appellantur. Wloszy enim Polonis idem est, quod
> Itali Latinis".
> Martin Opitz (1597-1639), The father of modern German literature.
> "Doch ewre (der Romer) Sprache bleibt noch hier auff diesen Tag,
> Darob man dich gewiss gar billich wundern mag.
> Italien hat selbst nicht viel von seinem alten
> Ingleichen Spanien vnd Gallia behalten:
> Wie wenig diese nun den Romern ehnlich sein,
> So nahe sind verwandt Walachisch und Latein"
> "Es steckt manchs edles Blut in kleinen Bawrenhutten,
> Das noch den alten brauch vnd der Vorfahren sitten
> Nicht gantzlich avgelegt. Wie dann jhr Tantz anzeigt,
> In dem so wunderbar gebuckt wird und geneigt,
> Gesprungen in die hoh, auff  art der Capreolen,
> Die meine Deutschen sonst auss Franckrich mussen holen,
> Bald wird ein Kreiss gemacht, bald wiederumb zutrant,
> Bald gehn die Menscher recht, bald auff der lincken hand,
> Die Menscher, die noch jtzt fast Romisch muster tragen,
> Zwar schlecht, doch witzig sein, viel dencken, wenig sagen"
> ETC, ETC...
> --------------------------- end of quoting --------------------------
> Pannon J.
> ----------
> REMINDER: Please correct my e-mail address in any personal reply by
> removing the "antiSPAM." part from it.  I have altered the address
> in the hope of defeating address grabbing SPAM software.  Thanks, JP
+ - magyar-lengyel tortenelmi kapcsolatok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Denes BOGSANYI > wrote:
>  Rokonsag bar nics de szoros tortenelmi kapcsolat az van. A lengyel
> Jadwega (nemetul Hedwig) ha jol tudom Arpadhazi Szent Margit huga
> volt. O alapitotta ujra a Crakow-i egyetemet es o rajta keresztul lett
> a magyar Nagy Lajos lengyel kiraly.
> Udv
> Denes

Elnezest, nem egeszen igy volt. Jadwiga Nagy Lajos leanya volt, es mivel
Nagy Lajos magyar es lengyel kiraly volt, a lengyel tront Jadwiga 
nevu leanya orokolte, a magyart pedig a masik leanya, aki Maria 
kiralyne lett. Nagy Lajosnak kulonben az anyja is lengyel volt,
Lokietek Erzsebet (akit, ha mashonnan nem, a Zach Klara es Zach
Felician tortenetebol ismerunk, az o negy ujjat vagta le Zach Felician).

A magyar-lengyel kapcsolatok masik legnevezetesebb alakja Bathory Istvan
volt, akit erdelyi fejedelmi szekbol valasztottak lengyel kirallya.
Lengyelek voltak a Jagello uralkodok is, I. es II. Ulaszlo,
akik azonban a magyar tortenelemben  nem hagytak tul jo emlekezetet... 

Zimanyi Magda