Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Hungary & Turkey (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
2 election results, detailed (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was Re: The Slovak d (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
6 gabcikovo dam (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: George Pataki... (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: beer/god/Sartre (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: religion/Hungary/schools (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: FREUD (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Slovak dam (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind)  125 sor     (cikkei)
17 WWW; or, what is this http stuff, anyway? (long) (mind)  106 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
19 ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Hungary & Turkey (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope friendship such as this will set an example.
Best wishes to everyone on the other end.


Reposted from soc.culture.turkish:
For a subscription to  Internet edition of this news,

    9/4/94, MILLIYET--Hungary is erecting a statue of the
Ottoman Sultan Suleyman the magnificent who had conquered
their country, as a historical show of goodwill to Turkey.
The statue to be erected at the famous Zigetvar Castle will
be opened to public by the Turkish President visiting
    Demirel speaking in honor of the occasion said: "First
time in history is a country honoring a commander who
invaded their homeland. This is magnificent nobility on
behalf of the Hungarian people."

     09/05/94, SABAH--President Demirel is going to Hungary
with a 180-people delegation. Mumtaz Soysal, minister of the
foreign affairs, Timurcin Savas, minister of culture, and
Fikri Saglar, minister of state are going to accompany

09/07/94, MILLIYET--President Demirel opens the Suleyman the
Magnificent monument in Zigetvar Hungary, condems Serbs and
calls them to take a lesson from Hungarian-Turkish
+ - election results, detailed (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I don't know how it is in the States, but in the Dutch papers reporting on
Hungary's parliamentary election results was limited to listing the number
of seats the bigger parties had received. In the RFE Daily Reports, the
reporting on statistics was, I think, also rather limited. So I looked some
figures up in Magyar Nemzet and Magyarorszag. I was especially interested in
results percentage-wise, for the electoral system makes the results in seats
rather deceptive. Of course, the Hungarians could vote in three different
ways: on individual candidates in single-mandate constituencies; on
candidates in regional multi-mandate constituencies, and on parties
(candidate-list nationally compiled). The result of the latter way of voting
(on party lists) was like this:

MSzP (Hungarian Socialist Party)                  32,96%
SzDSz (Alliance of Free Democrats)                19,76%
MDF (Hungarian Democratic Forum)                  11,73%
FKgP (Small Landholders; Torgyan faction, which left the MDF-dominated
government in '92)                                 8,85%
KDNP (Christian-Democrats)                         7,06%
FiDeSz (Alliance of Young Democrats)               7,00%
Munkaspart (Workers'party)                         3,18%
Republican Party                                   2,53%
Agrarszovetseg (Agrarian Alliance)                 2,11%
MIEP (Party of Hungarian Justice and Life; Csurka) 1,58%
Hungarian Social-Democratic Party                  0,95%
United Small Landholders                           0,82%
LPSz Vallalkozok Partja (Liberal Alliance- Entrepeneurs'Party)
National Democratic Alliance (Poszgay)             0,52%
Hung. Green Party                                  0,16%
Kiegyezes Kisgazdapart (another Small Landholders -faction)
Conservative Party (also a Small Landholders-faction)
Alternative Greens / Hungarian Green Alliance      0,02%
Hungarian Market Party                             0,01%

Right! One complicating factor, obviously, is the total fragmentation of the
erstwhile Smaal Landholders Party, which according to one source, split up
in 12 parties. Obviously the one faction which in time distanced itself from
the Antall/Boross governments, has as only one been succesful in attracting
voters, probably thanks to the original Small Landholders Party chief
Torgyan. Some other points/questions:
* The Munkaspart, I presume, is the follow-up party of the orthodox MSMP wing
that initially held on to that name when the mainstream of the Party decided
to transform into MSP.
* The radical national-conservatives failed in attracting a significant
share of the vote: Csurka's MIEP only performed reasonably well in Budapest
city, where it received 3,57% of the vote.
* That is, unless.... I don't know what is the Republican Party, I never
heard of it (shame on me).. Are they similar to their German and Czech name-
sakes (radical nationalist), or to their many Western-European namesakes
*Not only the Social Democrats, which in '90 already failed to live up to
expectations (getting a 3,6% share of the vote while having enjoyed much
higher figures in 1989 opinion polls), were crushed in between
reform-communists and social-liberals - also Poszgay's Nemzeti Demokratak.
Now I wonder what happened to him? I remember having read, back in '93 I
think, that he left the MSP and created his own party, and back then his
chances were estimated positively. Not only is the NDSz figure now very low,
also the political colour seems to have changed: in one graph his party was
listed as right-wing, among MDF, FKgP, MIEP and Piacpart (Market Party),
unlike MSzDP (Social-Democrats) and Munkaspart (Left-wing) and SzDSz, FiDeSz
and Vallalk.P. (Center).
* The Vallalkozok Partja in some places campaigned together with SzDSz and
FiDesz, in one single-mandate constituency (Kecskemet) the VK candidate
Peter Zwack was elected with their support (results first round: Zwack 42,9%;
Bruszel (MSzP) 35,1%; Szabo (MDF) 22,0%)
* The Agrarszovetseg also campaigned together with FiDeSz and SzDSz (and VP)
in some places
*The MDF only received 4 single-mandate constituency- seats; all were
elected in Budapest constituencies. Constituency 1, including Buda quarters
1 and 2 (Buda Hill); constituency 2, including Buda quarter 2 (Roszadomb,
elite neighbourhood); constituency 15 (neighbourhood 11) and constituency 18
(neighbourhood 12). Worst of all in Budapest the MDF fared in
workers'neighbourhood Csepel (where both SzDSz and, of course, MSzP, did very

Right, that's it; I have to stop.

Joost van Beek

+ - Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:      (parts deleted)

> It is a separate question, but very closely, I'd say causally, linked.  I
> the only serious test of the Hungarian Government's attitudes is the extent
> bilateral military links with other countries, because these only are of
> serious consequence.  My opinion did not change one bit since the idea of
> membership was aired a few years ago: it is political cargo cultism.

IMHO,there is more to even informal participation, than what is being
discussed. An important item was missing from Hungarian foreign relations
for a long time, that is knowing your counterparts in various countries.
Such personal relationships started when the people are at a relatively
junior level, result in later cooperation and understanding among eventual

It is not too different from participation, as an example in various
technical or professional society activities. Personal contacts, initated at
that level can be vitally important for later support or just "knowledge"
about the practices and policies of other persons or organizations. It works
the same way on a larger "country" based international activities also. The
Hungarian contacts were woefully poor with many decision influencing people
from times when the foreign policy was restricted to a joint Austro-Hungarian
activity. While some of Hungary's neighbors were carefully cultivating
contacts with all potential influencing partners, Hungary was represented
"en bloc" with the Habsburg aims. Just review, British public opinion as
demonstarted by the Times, in 1849 to 1867 time frame, to that of 1867 to
1919. There was a very significant change, which brushed Hungary with the
same brush as it did the activities of the Monarchy.

So, while the daily budgeting looks at penny pinching in the NATO - Hungary
contacts, it does not realize, this personal contact establishment
importance, on a long term basis. The junior officers who would participate
in these activities would gain both knowledge about their specific duties and
also establish contacts with other junior personnel, some of whom, eventually
will be in leading positions. It is a mistake, that Hungary did not
participate in the joint exercises, while almost all of its neighbors did.
I think the decisions of some of Hungary's neighbors are sounder than
Hungary's even though, to some of them the expenditures were a greater
sacrifice, than to Hungary.

+ - Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was Re: The Slovak d (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Frajkor writes:

>        Being a bit of a pedant, I am used to dealing with dense
> students.

>       Laminar flow.
>        Only the bottom layer of the water, in contact with the bed,
> sinks into the bed, presuming it is permeable or semi-permeable.  Now
> I am sure you may think this strange, but in fact it has not yet been
> shown that the layer at the surface is absorbed into the bed.  The
> layer at the surface is customarily at a higher level than the layer
> at the bottom.
>      the layer (from the latin 'lamella'-- meaning layer or sheet.
> Hence 'laminar') at the bottom is influence by (a) pressure, usually
> due to gravity (b) horizontal velocity of layers above.
>      a good example is how airplanes fly. Even in Hungarian air.  The
> flow of one layer over the top (the layer next to the wing is
> essentially still) lowers the pressure because it is speeded up.  The
> increased pressure under the wing pushed the wing up.  The layer of
> water over the bottom layer, being faster, reduces the pressure
> forcing the bottom layer into the bed.
>          If you want to visualize it, consider a molecule of water at
> Bratislava, next to the bed of the river.  It is a still day. It sinks
> in.  at the usual rate.   If there is flow, the pressure to make it
> sink in is less and it gets jostled by molecules above until, in fact,
> it may make it all way to Romania before it settles into the bed. At
> the usual rate.
>       Got it?  It means that an awful lot of water has to flow past a
> given point to get one gallon into the soil.  Less water has to flow
> to get that same gallon in if the water is still.
>      Now consider gravity.  One of the effects of a dam (even in
> Hungarian water) is to (a) increase the depth of the river or lake
> (b) increase the area of the water behind the dam.  Even if this seems
> strange to you, a rather cursory look at any dam you please might
> convince you that there is a large reservoir behind it, and that the
> reservoir is deeper than the river downstream.
>      As a general rule in this universe, the deeper the fluid, the
> greater the pressure.   For example, air pressure is greater at Budapest
> than in outer space hundreds of miles above Budapest.  I know this is
> hard for you to believe, but astronauts have found this to be so.
> similarly, many respected authorities swear that the water pressure at
> the bottom of the Atlantic ocean is greater than at the bottom of the
> Danube.
>     Thus we might plausibily conclude that the pressure to force a
> molecule of water into the gravel bed near Bratislava is now much
> greater than before because (a) the water is deeper and therefore the
> effect is gravity is greater and (b) the interfering
> pressure-reducing mechanical effects of flow are reduced.
>    Still with me?
>    Good.  Let us go on to osmosis.  Osmosis is the infiltration of one
> fluid solution into another and is influenced by (a) pressure (b) area
> (c) solute concentration.   Presuming the dissolved mineral content of
> the gravel bed has not significantly changed, more water will get into
> the water table if the pressure to push it in increases. See above. It
> has.
>      More water will also get in if there is a greater area of water
> in the bottom area.  From looking at the reservoir, my untrained eye
> leads me to believe that the lake is quite a bit larger in area than
> the river used to be.
>     If you had a cup that had one hole per square centimeter drilled
> into the bottom, it will leak water at a certain rate.  If you
> quadruple the area of the bottom, each hole will continue to leak
> water at the same rate, but there will be four times as many holes,
> and four times as great a volume of water leaking.
>    I apologize to those to whom this is or was obvious and beg them to
> have patience with those to whom it is not.
>     Disclaimer:  I am not trained as a physicist and Bernoulli may
> never forgive me for trying to explain some of his principles this
> way.  If I am completely wrong, I apologize in advance.
>    for the benefit of Zoli Fekete, however, Newton worked in
> thermodynamics and not in hydrology.

Well, not exactly. One of the important factors is left out, i.e. the change
in the properties of the "interface". Whenever a dam is built, eventual
silting also takes place. Silting has a tendency of increasing the pressure
needed to overcome the interface resistance to flow. It is initially a slow
process, because the particles are filling up the interstitial space between
the larger gravel "filter", however, the pressure drop, after increasing at a
steady rate, reaches the "plugging" pressure drop, when flow
through it significantly decreases.

It is also important to know the properties of the underground flow for the
evaluation of the interface behavior.

Regardless of the merit or lack of it for the dam, let's not present half of
a textbook case, even if such treatment is common in the journalistic field.

+ - Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 15 Sep 1994 03:02:08 GMT > said:
>>--I am a certified social worker, trained at the period of time when
>>all schools were oriented to Freudian theory.  Freud had a greater
>>impact on social work in American than he did in psychiatry.
>with all due respect, being trained as a social worker is not the same as
>being trained as a psychiatrist. the reason i mention this is that you
>discounted freud's view on religion since he lacked formal qualifications
>as a theologian. i suggest that your dismissal of freud's views mitigates
>against your presenting views.
--Nor would I every argue that it was.  Nor did your original question ask
that.  You asked if I were either a psychoanalyist, psychologist, or
psychiatrist.  I told you what the basis for my criticism was.  Comes to that,
Freud wasn't trained as a psychiatrist, either, unless you count the time
he spent with Charcot, from whom he evidently learned little of use to him.

>in fcat it was his pursuit of the neurophysiological basis for "mental
>illness" that led him to psychoanalysis.

--This greatly depends on whom you read.  I am not at the library just
now, but I recall two alternate readings.  One is that he simply
operationalized the Jewish theological argument technique knowns as
pilpul, and the other was that he created psychoanalysis because he
couldn't see a future in neurology in the anti-Jewish Vienna of the
turn of the century.  You will, however, send me to the library and
the first thing I'll re-read is his autobiography.  I don't recall
that he made the claim that he was looking for a physical basis for
mental illness when he developed psychoanalysis, but you may be
correct in his intent.

>(i) given the reason you gave for dismissing freud's views on religion,
>do you have formal qualifications in the natural sciences or the
>philosophy of science to justify your entitlement to pass such judgment?
--My argument will have to stand on its own merits, not my academic
qualifications, right?

>(ii) what are, in your view, "the canons of science"?
--I am referring, as I think you know, the empirical position briefly
summarized by the propostions that:

  1.  The world exists
  2.  We can only know the world through sense experience (Sense
      experience implies the ability to measure in some concrete
  3.  If one cannot measure a phenomenon, it doesn't exist.

--Obviously there's more to it, but this should be enough of an
answer to serve the purpose.  This is the HUNGARIAN list, right?
And this is getting pretty far afield and we will both no doubt
get rockets for dragging this out this much.

>i have no doubts about its existence, but it's date could indeed be
--I must cop out on this again.  The relevant note is four miles
away, and I just sat down to clean out my mailbox and hadn't
anticipate needing it.  I'll try to remind my senile self to pick
up the reference which is in my desk at the university.


+ - gabcikovo dam (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To all,

I think I read all of the thread on the dam, but I didn't see anything
explaining the current state of negotiations, if any.  Has there been any
decision by some authority (world court)?

As to the discission of the behavior and status of the water behind and over
the dam, why has this been an issue?  Was this the basis of an argument
against it?

To Jan George Frajkor:
        Where did you get the info for you disertation on the behavior of the
Slovak water?  Since you are not a scientist, bu your own admission, I
expect some expert explained this to you.  Overall it seems reasonable (I am
an electrical engineer, and have studied physics and basic fluid mechanics), bu
did not explain the relevance of your last point;

    If you had a cup that had one hole per square centimeter drilled
    into the bottom, it will leak water at a certain rate.  If you
    quadruple the area of the bottom, each hole will continue to leak
    water at the same rate, but there will be four times as many holes,
    and four times as great a volume of water leaking.

This is true, but the volume of the ground soaking up the water increases in
proportion to the surface area of the botom of the lake, so the density of the
water in the ground is the same, for a given depth of the lake.  Is the total
quantity of underground water important here, or is it the density of water in
ground (how saturated the ground is)?

Also, given that most of what you wrote was correct, what was the point you wer
making in relation to the Gabcikovo dam? (I read all of the thread I found, but
point was not addressed).

        Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: George Pataki... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At least his name is for sure Hungarian - The name of one of the
organizers of the Hungarian Expo was named Pataki, though as reported in
Budapest Week she was sort of incompetent.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>--Freud thought very little of ordinary people.  The quote I need is
>>at the office, but in another letter to Pastor Pfister, Freud says,
>>"Most people are trash."
>when was this letter written?

--For all you hundrends of fans who asked about this, here is the quotation
and the source:

     "I have found little that is 'good' about human beings on the
     whole.  In my experience, most of them are trash, no matter whether
     they publicly subscribe to this or that ethical doctrine or to
     none at all" (Meng & Freud, 1963, p. 61).

Meng, H. & Freud, E. L., (eds.) (1963). *Psychoanalysis and faith*.
  New York:  Basic Books.  (trans. by Eric Mosbacher).

The book (E. L. Freud is a grandson, as I recall) is an edited
correspondence between Freud and Pastor Pfister, a Swiss Calvinist
cleric, with whom Freud carried on an extensive correspondence for
some years.  The statement made such an impression on Pfister that
he quoted it in a letter to Freud's widow, praising her for her
support to Freud in the face of the difficulties of life.  I think that
the letter is included in the Preface, but I do not have the book
before me.

To those who asked about this, two responses:

1.  I do not know when the letter was written, but if you insist,
I will look out the book again and see if the letter is dated.  It didn't
matter to my original purpose, so I didn't record it.

2.  I cannot leave this open file to check it, but someone sent me a sentence
in German that quoted my original posting to the effect that "all
people are Dreck."  I didn't look up the original text, but
I doubt if it says that, since Dreck (or drek) is Yiddish and not
German.  The original correspondence was surely in German, since
Pfister, a Protestant, probably didn't know Yiddish, particularly
a work like "drek."  On the other hand, I am a Protestant, and I
know what drek means, and "trash" is a very kind euphemism.

Before the rockets are fired, I'll ask it:  What has this to do with
Hungary?  I was most interested in Joost van Beek's posting and was
glad to receive it.  May I ask if the Hungarian Parliament has
proportional representation as Italy's used to have?  And how much
of the vote must one have to get representation?  And, just which
parties are in the current ruling coalition?
+ - Re: beer/god/Sartre (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>Our youth think that
> they discovered "living together" in the 1960s.  Back in the 1930s in my
> small town in the Midwest, it was a common occurrance.

Are you serious?  I would have expected that small town USA in the 1930 was ver
conservative on social/moral issues.  Is this a false image from watching too
movies?  Didn't parrents forbid there children from such morally questionable
arrangements, back in the days when kids listened to their parents.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: religion/Hungary/schools (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 13 Sep 1994 01:43:49 GMT > said:
>>--Yes, but the last I looked, *people* murdered/tortured/persecuted.  I
>>don't have anything that suggests that God did it.
>that makes god a whimp! here he is, all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good
>and he lets a bunch of imbecilic thugs sully his name. the least he could
>do is to get a court order to prevent them from using his name for these
>atrocities. the least he could do is to make the machine guns
>of murderers jam, the chemicals of the gas-chambers degrade!

--It is difficult to answer the questions of unbelievers, and I know better
than to try--most of the time.  The proper theological answer, from my
perspective (note the qualification) is that God is not a puppetmaster.
People do not have strings attached.  God does not control each act of
everyday behavior.  Further, within limits (sociologists!  Note this
qualification), people have free will.  They can choose to act in
barbaric ways.  Why doesn't God stop this?  Think about it from his or
her perspective.  If God knows the meaning and end of history, he or she
wouldn't get too concerned about any current event--it would all work
out in good time.  God rarely suspends the laws of physics and the other
natural sciences.  When he or she does, we call it a miracle.  You couldn't
have a miracle unless natural law operated nearly all the time, right?

>> Godless Huns  also
>>murdered/tortured/persecuted, but I'm not sure that any atheist-as-
>>philosopher can be held responsible for that.
>the huns were not atheists, even if they were not judeo-christian-muslim
--I am not aware of the religious side of the Huns.  Perhaps I should have
said "Barbaric Huns."  I suspect if I had, Imi, you would have replied that
the Huns were a gentle, pastoral people who have been misunderstood.

+ - Re: FREUD (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 15 Sep 1994 16:15:20 FST H. MARC said:
>     I would really like to know where you dug up the Freud quote:
>               Die meissten Menschen sind Dreck!

--I didn't.  See the longer posting.  I doubt if Freud wrote to Pfister
in Yiddish.  Dreck (or drek) is Yiddish.  Pfister was a Swiss pastor.
If the longer posting doesn't answer your questions, write again.

+ - Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply to your message of "Fri, 16 Sep 94 17: 29:47 CDT."
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 94 16:10:53 -0700

Charles writes:

> 2.  I cannot leave this open file to check it, but someone sent me a sentence
> in German that quoted my original posting to the effect that "all
> people are Dreck."  I didn't look up the original text, but
> I doubt if it says that, since Dreck (or drek) is Yiddish and not
> German.  The original correspondence was surely in German, since
> Pfister, a Protestant, probably didn't know Yiddish, particularly
> a work like "drek."  On the other hand, I am a Protestant, and I
> know what drek means, and "trash" is a very kind euphemism.

My friendly Merriam-Webster says:

dreck n
[Yiddish *drek* & German *dreck*, from Middle High German *drec*;
 akin to OE *threax* rubbish, Latin *stercus* excretement]: trash, rubbish

+ - Re: Slovak dam (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Attila Gabor wrote:

>> Does anyone know the current status of the Slovak dam on the
>> Duna (hell if I can remember how to spell thast word - Gabczekova?)

>Why don't use it's correct name, then? Bosi Eromu.

What do you mean, correct name?  Does it have another name than Gabcikovo?
What is Bosi Eromu?  I have never seen that  name before?

+ - Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> My friendly Merriam-Webster says:
> dreck n
> [Yiddish *drek* & German *dreck*, from Middle High German *drec*;
>  akin to OE *threax* rubbish, Latin *stercus* excretement]: trash, rubbish

The equally friendly German-English online dictionary at




      dirt, stdrker: filth, (Schlamm) mud: fig. im Dreck sitzen be in a
mess; j-n (et.) in den Dreck ziehen drag
      s.o.'s name (s.th.) in the mud; j-n wie (den letzten) Dreck
behandeln treat s.o. like dirt; er hat (viel) Dreck
      am Stecken he has a lot to answer for
      fig. (Kram, Quatsch) rubbish: er k|mmert sich e-n Dreck darum he
doesn't care a damn; das geht dich e-n
      Dreck an! that's none of your business!

+ - Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg wrote:

>The equally friendly German-English online dictionary at
> http://www.fmi.uni-passau.de/htbin/lt/ltd

Can someone make sense of this e-mail address format for me?  I've seen such
addresses before, but hell if I understand what it means.  Whatever happened to
good old days, when people had addresses like: 

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It was written on this list:

~       Being a bit of a pedant, I am used to dealing with dense
~      Laminar flow.
~       Only the bottom layer of the water, in contact with the bed,
~sinks into the bed, presuming it is permeable or semi-permeable.  Now
~I am sure you may think this strange, but in fact it has not yet been
~shown that the layer at the surface is absorbed into the bed.  The
~layer at the surface is customarily at a higher level than the layer
~at the bottom.
~     the layer (from the latin 'lamella'-- meaning layer or sheet.
~Hence 'laminar') at the bottom is influence by (a) pressure, usually
~due to gravity (b) horizontal velocity of layers above.
~     a good example is how airplanes fly. Even in Hungarian air.  ...

                  [ ... deleted ...]

~         If you want to visualize it, consider a molecule of water...

                  [ ... deleted ...]

~      Got it? ...

                  [ ... deleted ...]

~     Now consider gravity.  One of the effects of a dam (even in
~Hungarian water) ...

                  [ ... etc. etc. etc. ]

Oooh...    And I used to come to the Hungary list to enjoy a quiet
environment where people think and bring valuable contributions...
It's rather difficult to type on a computer keyboard with boxer gloves,
but there are moments one finds these mountains of nonsense unbearable.

First, I will have to explain a couple of terms just to know what we
are speaking about.

Laminar flow is a flow where trajectories of particles are (quasi)
parallel, as opposed to turbulent flow, when particles move in a
seemingly chaotic way. An example of this is cigarette smoke in a quiet
room, when it goes laminar on a certain distance, but after, turbulences
occur. Recent progress in theory of complex dynamic systems brought
tools to assess the phenomenon in a determinist way, via sensible
dependence of solution of differential equations describing the motion
upon the initial and boundary conditions. Keywords are "attractor"
and "theory of chaos". Of course, laminar flow has nothing to do with
the sinking of water, be that water as fascinating as the Gabcikovo

Gravity is a phenomenon that's independent of the water depth, if we
don't want to go through a calculus with 40 digit precision of the
perturbations of the interacting mass with or without the water layer.
On the other side, hydrostatic pressure depends upon the water depth,
but in case of permeable bottom it's perfectly irrelevant. Should the
permeable bottom be dry, then we could speak about significance of the
hydrostatic pressure. But, this is by far not the case: there is a wet
equilibrium. As some of us learned in the primary school, hydrostatic
pression is equal in any direction. Thus it will not influence the
sinking because the water in the gravels is under the same pression,
and the deeper the bigger the pression is. I will come back to this

Infiltration of one fluid into an another one is being scientifically
called diffusion, not osmosis. Osmosis is a phenomenon where the
infiltration of one fluid into another goes through an obstacle, like
a permeable or semi-permeable membran. Osmosis is extremely important
a concept in mollecular and cellular biology because it explains the
equilibrium of salt concentrations. Both diffusion and osmosis are
phenomenons occuring at mollecular level and can be well assessed thanks
thanks to developed theorical concepts. Both have nothing, nothing to
do with macro phenomenons like water sinking at the bottom of a riverbed.
Concentration of minerals is perfectly irrelevant due to dimensions of
the filter, in the given case gravels and sands.

There is an another phenomenon, called capillarity, that occurs thanks
to surface tension of the water, but for riverbed infiltration has only
little importance.

Now finally we get to the Danube water sinking phenomenon. Gravels and
sands deep under the riverbed cannot be neglected when building a dam.
If doing so, the dam would get underwashed and would not resist for a
year. Thus the dam has either to go down until an impermeable layer,
preferrably rock, or the reservoir bottom has to be hermetized to
prevent uncontrolled water sinking. It's this second possibility that
has been chosen in Gabcikovo case because building a dam 200 m deep in
water-saturated gravels would be, let's say it so, hard to achieve
with today's technology.

So we can see the situation as an underground slow river that goes
through gravels, and a surface river that goes quickly or slowly
depending on the turbines, with no interaction between the two. And this
is exactly the central hydrologic and environmental problem of the
Gabcikovo dam: before, the deep underground river and the surface fast
river were interacting on all the distance.

What happens if the two water flows get vertically disconnected? At the
surface, nothing. But, concerning the underground layer, the level may
(yes, I said may) lower.

The underground stream in gravels exists because there is a difference
in altitudes just like in case of surface water that rushes downward.
A part of the underground water comes back to the surface at the same
time as a part of the surface water sinks down. That way the water
stays relatively clean despite pollution all the long of the river. When
there is not enough surface water going down, the underground part of
the river still flows, but will do the same as the surface river would
do: (underground) water level may lower. This is not good for many
reasons that I don't want to enumerate right now. It's exactly for that
there is a regulated leakage system on side of the dam, as to aliment
the underground lake with surface water. It's artificial instead of
natural regulation and obviously the control cannot be perfect:
lowering of the underground water is unavoidable. However, with a good
system of control, this can be limited to be kept at decimeter order

So far the sinking water story. It's incomplete, I know, but it gives an
image about the nature of the problem. Disclaimer: I am not a hydrologist
specialist, nor a dam construction specialist, I am just trying to think
and leave Bernoulli to rest in peace.

Roman Kanala
+ - WWW; or, what is this http stuff, anyway? (long) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From World Wide Web Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ):

   This is an introduction to the World Wide Web project, describing the
   concepts, software and access methods. It is aimed at people who know
   a little about navigating the Internet, but want to know more about
   WWW specifically. If you don't think you are up to this level, try an
   introductory Internet book such as Ed Krol's "The Whole Internet" or
   "Big Dummy's Guide to the Internet". The latter is available
   electronically by anonymous FTP from ftp.eff.org in the directory

   This informational document is posted to news.answers,
   comp.infosystems.www.users, comp.infosystems.www.providers,
   comp.infosystems.www.misc, comp.infosystems.gopher,
   comp.infosystems.wais and alt.hypertext every four days (please allow
   a day or two for it to propagate to your site). The latest version is
   always available on the web as
   http://sunsite.unc.edu/boutell/faq/www_faq.html. (see the section
   titled "What is a URL?" to understand what this means.)

   The most recently posted version of this document is kept on the
   news.answers archive on rtfm.mit.edu in
   /pub/usenet/news.answers/www/faq. For information on FTP, send e-mail
   to  with:

send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources

   in the body (not subject line) of your message, instead of asking me.

   Thomas Boutell maintains this document. Feedback about it is to be
   sent via e-mail to .

   In all cases, regard this document as out of date. Definitive
   information should be on the web, and static versions such as this
   should be considered unreliable at best. The most up-to-date version
   of the FAQ is the version maintained on the web. Please excuse any
   formatting inconsistencies in the posted version of this document, as
   it is automatically generated from the on-line version.

                            3: ELEMENTARY QUESTIONS

3.1: What are WWW, hypertext and hypermedia?

   WWW stands for "World Wide Web". The WWW project, started by CERN (the
   European Laboratory for Particle Physics), seeks to build a
   distributed hypermedia system.

   The advantage of hypertext is that in a hypertext document, if you
   want more information about a particular subject mentioned, you can
   usually "just click on it" to read further detail. In fact, documents
   can be and often are linked to other documents by completely different
   authors -- much like footnoting, but you can get the referenced
   document instantly!

   To access the web, you run a browser program. The browser reads
   documents, and can fetch documents from other sources. Information
   providers set up hypermedia servers which browsers can get documents

   The browsers can, in addition, access files by FTP, NNTP (the Internet
   news protocol), gopher and an ever-increasing range of other methods.
   On top of these, if the server has search capabilities, the browsers
   will permit searches of documents and databases.

   The documents that the browsers display are hypertext documents.
   Hypertext is text with pointers to other text. The browsers let you
   deal with the pointers in a transparent way -- select the pointer, and
   you are presented with the text that is pointed to.

   Hypermedia is a superset of hypertext -- it is any medium with
   pointers to other media. This means that browsers might not display a
   text file, but might display images or sound or animations.

3.2: What is a URL?

   URL stands for "Uniform Resource Locator". It is a draft standard for
   specifying an object on the Internet, such as a file or newsgroup.

   URLs look like this: (file: and ftp: URLs are synonymous.)
     * file://wuarchive.wustl.edu/mirrors/msdos/graphics/gifkit.zip
     * ftp://wuarchive.wustl.edu/mirrors
     * http://info.cern.ch:80/default.html
     * news:alt.hypertext
     * telnet://dra.com

   The first part of the URL, before the colon, specifies the access
   method. The part of the URL after the colon is interpreted specific to
   the access method. In general, two slashes after the colon indicate a
   machine name (machine:port is also valid).

   When you are told to "check out this URL", what to do next depends on
   your browser; please check the help for your particular browser. For
   the line-mode browser at CERN, which you will quite possibly use first
   via telnet, the command to try a URL is "GO URL" (substitute the
   actual URL of course). In Lynx you just select the "GO" link on the
   first page you see; in graphical browsers, there's usually an "Open
   URL" option in the menus.

+ - Re: Sinead, the army and the churches (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>> still valid.  Christianity provides a set  of standards of behavior which ar
>> eternal.
>> PERIOD! :-)
>> Paul Gelencser
>Please spell out for me, which of the human standards of behaviour are
>exclusively Christian. Thanks, 

Eva, I didn't say exclusively.  The objective of religion is to set a standard
of behavior, and certainly there are some beliefs religions have in common.
are also ideas that not held in common, like worshiping a god entity versus
worshipping nature, or ancestors, or practicing monogomy.

I cannot make a comparison between Christianity and Buddism or Hinduism with
any confidence, but maybe someone else can speak on that.  I am certain that
the abstract concepts of not doing harm to others and honesty are common to all
but the interpretations may be different.

The point was that, without any religion as a standard bearer, people are likel
rationalize any liberal idea as being just or acceptable, or, alternatively,
would discard ideas of morality - only the strongest survive, it is right to
what you want if you are strong enough to do it, etc.

+ - ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

__MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
MET                                  Copyright  1994. IV. evfolyam /volume
     A mai beszamolot GAL Zoltan az orszaggyules elnoke kezdte.
Elmondta, hogy eddig 12 mukanap volt, 58 oranyi beszed hangzott el.
ebbol az 36 orat hasznalt fel az ellenzek, 3 orat a kormany, a tobbit
a koalicio.  Ebbol is latszik, mondta a fotitkar, hogy igen pozitiv az
ellenzek hozzaallasa. Sajnos azonban keves a kormanytagok, es a
politikai allamtitkarok reszvetele.
     Sajnos csuszik az idoszeruen legfontossabb, az onkormanyzati
torveny hatarozathozatala. Mindenesetre a miniszterelnok kemenyen fellep a
jogalkotasi munka gyorsitasaban.
     Az oszi ulesszak terve 90 szazalekben gazdasagi jellegu
torvenyeket tartalmaz. Megvitatasuk surgos, mert az onkormanyzati
kampany idejen, a parlament 1 - 2 ulesnapot kihagy.
     Megkiserlik a munkat tervszerubbe, es kiszamithatobba tenni, es
az Orszaggyules tarsadalmi megiteleset novelni. Szamottevoen nott a
kulfoldi erdeklodes is, melyre  tovabbi igeny tartanak.
Eppen ezert a kozvelemenyre (OLVASOINK velemenyuket internet cimunkre
varjuk !).
Az oszi szunetben a kepviselok szamara tovabbkepzest szerveznek.
      A panasziroda julius ota 700 bejelentest kapott, es ahol az ugy
megkivanta, intezkedett is.
      Orvenddetesen nott a nemzetkoozi erdeklodes.
      Az Europai Unio-hoz csatlakozas megkoveteli a jogharmonizacio
gyorsitasat, ez ugyben szamitanak az Osztrak Parlament, es Fisher ur
      Varhatoan egy het mulva elfogadjak a gyokeresen uj hazszabalyt,
a gyakorlat hianyaban azonban eloforsulhatnak meg kisebb hibak.
      A frakciok a hazbizottsagi ulesen elfogadtak a
frakciovezeto-helyettesi tisztseg bevezeteset, Ez ugyan ujabb
tiszteletdijak kifizetesevel jar, de fontossagat tekintve szukseges.
Veglegesen rendezni kell a kepviselok vagyonnyilatkozatanak ugyet, a
jogallasukrol hozott torveny modositasaval.  Ez ugyanis (kulonosen a
kpeviselok vagyoni helyzetenek novekedese elenken foglalkoztatja a
  *  Soltesz ur, az Orszaggyules fotitkara beszamolt a
jovo heti munkarol, kiemelve a varhatoan december elejen megtartando
onkormanyzati valasztasokoz szukseges torvenymodositast, melyhez az
Alkotmany modositasa is szukseges.  Kedden sorrakerul a
potkoltsegvetes altalanos vitajamak megnyitasa.  Meg ezen a
munkanapon kerul sor az Orszaggyules Hazszabalyanak modositasarol
szolo torvenyjavaslat vegszavazasa.  Szerdan a helyi
onkormanyzatokrol, es a polgarmesteri tiszteletdijakrol szolo,
valamint mentelmi ugyekrol lesz szo.  Elkeszult a sajtoiroda kulso
munkaszobaja a - nalunk Feher Haznak nevezett, feher koburkolatu
kepviseloi irodahazban.


       M     M   EEEEE   TTTTTTT        1994. IV. volume /evfolyam.
       M M M M   E          T               HU ISSN  1216-0229
       M     M   E          T               ELECTRONIC JOURNAL
       M     M   EEEEEE     T          BUDAPEST,Pf.311. H-1536.HUNGARY
              Kiado/Publisher: dr.Orczan, Zsolt L.
             Foszerkeszto/ Editor  Orczan, Csaba S.
              Levelezesi rovat : 

MET_________________________      ______________________MET