Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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1 Re: Just how bad was communism morally? (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
2 Sightseeing guide in Budapest to give insight in hungar (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
3 Mailing lists for Eastern Europe (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Feminism & Abortion (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: TO MR. KEELER FROM MARIA (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
7 Sulyemeles (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 Újvidéki "Napló" (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Another broadcasting stupidity (was: Re: Hungary OM (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: TO MR. KEELER FROM MARIA (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: A Petőfi Rádió interjúja Neményi Péter Andrással (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
14 Ektelenseg (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Just how bad was communism morally? (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
17 ROMANIANS, VLACHS, ROMANS. (mind)  478 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Hungary OMMITED! Write NBC! Drink Pepsi! (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
19 Another broadcasting stupidity (was: Re: Hungary OMMITE (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Ektelenseg (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Just how bad was communism morally? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T.M.Lutas > wrote:

> Let's spin this idea a bit out. If the tolerated had stood up en masse and
> refused to maintain their silence while the banned were being repressed
> wouldn't the entire system have collapsed? It's somewhat akin to the
> passer by (or more accurately a crowd of passers by) seeing a mugging or a
> drowning.

I read you, but I think I am willing to give to the "passer bys" the benefit
of doubt in this case even though having seen that kind of attitude in the
late '60s figured heavily in my fleeing Hungary.  I was repeatedly getting
into trouble with the Party secretary (also the Personnel chief) of my
work place over even such simple things as complaining loudly in front of my
co-workers about the biased news coverage of the space war between the US and
USSR.  This was immediately reported by the group's well known "rat" and I
was then "invited" by the Party chief to a talk in his "wood shack".
The cup became full for me when the chief gave his "last warning."  But it
wasn't so much that warning that made me decide to flee, but the total lack
of solidarity by the group members who privatly held the same views as I.
Instead of making that "rat" feel a miserable outsider, they accepted him
as if they thought of nothing of his despicable methods.  I could not
believe that this was the same people who only ten years before stood up
as one against the communist regime, risking more than they would have
risked by shunning this rat.  What's even more ironic is to see the same
people now trying to take the moral high ground against those of us,
who then fled the country, by saying: "while you chose the comfortable
life in the West, we were left here to suffer."  I am sure that this view
figures heavily in their not wanting to grant voting rights to Hungarian
citizens living abroad.  A rather unique limitation on citizenship rights
even in the former East Bloc.

> OTOH, if the great mass of society doesn't owe anything to those who were
> banned, should those who really suffered get any preferential treatment from
> society in the form of disability pensions for their suffering? I mean
> after all, the tolerated would owe them nothing so why should they pay?

I agree that society ows them and as far as I know, the government does
provide some extra pensions and benefits to the most serious victims of
Communism, but the extra benefit is rather nominal, compared to their

>> You can't change a system by leaving the old guard in their power
>> positions.  It's not enough to change the people in the government
>> only.  Yet mostly this is what happened in '90, but since '94 even that
>> is not true.

> Too many pronouns here, spell this one out.

Sorry.  What I was referring to, of course, was the fact that the change in
government personnel was only true for the first free elections, in '90.
But, since the reform communists were voted back to power in '94, the
change in personnel is no longer true even at the cabinet level.  Many of
the government officials are the same now as they were before '90.
Only the rhethorics and symbols changed.

> As Jesus taught us, morality and the word of God both are things that do
> not just belong to one people. I think that a general discussion wouldn't
> hurt.

Just as long you stress morality transcending any specific religion,
I'm afraid.

+ - Sightseeing guide in Budapest to give insight in hungar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Guide in Budapest

Swedish man seeks female guide to show Budapest for 2 days.
(Not escort service) Seeks nice, open-minded english speaking person
who likes to discuss various matters. Preferably student in social, 
medicine or computer sciences.

Will be in Budapest (first time) on a business trip in August.
Would like to know more about Hungarian social life, museums, art, 
history and politics. Have plans to visit Semmelweis museum and
some art museum.

Have only overall knowledge about Hungary, have some business
contacts with Hungarian people working in Sweden.

Will travel by myself and visit a company in Budapest.

Myself: good humoured, secure, easygoing, many interests like	
music, travel, computers, psychology. Works with electronics and	
computer product development. ( 42 years old, unmarried, self employed )

Reads email during weekends.
+ - Mailing lists for Eastern Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to bring to your attention two mailing lists, EEUROPE-CHANGES
and EEUROPE-BUSINESS, both located at address >.
EEUROPE-CHANGES is a discussion list only, no commercial advertisements or 
product plugging are allowed. Discussion is wide open, no holds barred, 
controversial topics welcomed, political, economic and social matters 
discussed. List was started due to the fact that large part of e-mail users 
from Eastern Europe have no access to USENET and its groups with a similar 
topics.List often publishes articles by Western journalists based in Eastern 
Europe and various analysts of East European matters. Archives for the list 
are located at http://www.bulgaria.com/eeurope-changes              

EEUROPE-BUSINESS is very business-minded list, where business offers, 
leads, requests for goods and services, and advertisements are published 
(and welcomed), various government and export information, calls for papers, 
etc. are published - almost no discussion takes place. All postings must be 
from / have relation to / be of possible interest of people from Eastern 
Europe. A must for every business person contemplating a business with 
Eastern Europe.Business leads archive and other info is at 

Send command (in the body of text) SUBSCRIBE EEUROPE-CHANGES

Send command (in the body of text) SUBSCRIBE EEUROPE-BUSINESS

In case of any trouble with subscribing, send complaint to

+ - Re: Feminism & Abortion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ivan Marinov wrote:
> Alex Yordanov wrote:
> Christianity is not hatred.

Some "christianS" do show evidence of hatred--
such as the Crusades, the Inquistion, numerous wars
fought over whose version of Christianity was more
correct . . . 

 Christians don't hate those persons that will
> go to Hell. The purpose of Christian missionarism and propaganda is to
> tell to these persons to make their choose between good and bad. And
> Christians hope that these poersons will choose good, and this way they
> won't go to Hell.

So then a good "christian" will want to keep abortion
legal--for we must be able to choose good.
If all choices are taken away, there is no choice.

BTW, Ivan, you wild&crazy guy,
since abortion is legal, it cannot by definition
be murder.

+ - Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>Erdekes. mintha azt hallottam volna hogty a Magyar Radio a
>Liberalis Medicezaroke, akik mast mint liberalis velemenyt
>kicenzuraznak.. talan meg sincs diktatura?

De van, csak azert meg akadnak kis szigetek itt-ott.  Tudod, akarcsak a
kis magyar sziget a nagy szlav tengerben. ;-)

+ - Re: TO MR. KEELER FROM MARIA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gyorgy Kovacs ) writes:
> My dear Maria, (also knowns as Ms) (also known as MEgorov) (also known as YFB
> Just as I suspected: you don't address your opponents, because you have no id
> who wrote what. Did you have your cat type your tirades?
> Go to Hell. Or English 101. Preferably both. But frankly my dear, I don't giv
> a damn. Still.
> You are pissed at Mongols and Hungarians for God knows what reason.

Interestingly, the Ms has been posting her :ARE THE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS?
(Version 3) on other soc.culture.*** groups, at least on those groups in
the Hungarian neighbourhood. She doesn't cross post them in a single
sweep, so one group doesn't know about other groups. Not just the Italian
group, but also in the Czech and Slovak group. God knows why she would
post her trash there.
+ - Sulyemeles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mazlim van, tegnap talaltam egy gorog adot, ahol
az egesz sulyemelest kozvetitettek. Gorogul. Mi-
vel egy Katolische Wohngemeinschaftban lakom
nem egyedul nezem a TV-t, hanem egyutt, neme-
tekkel. Eleinte kicsit idegenkedtek az onkenyes
programvalasztasomtol ;-) de aztan belejottek.
Ugyanis nem semmi volt a tegnapi donto. Kulono-
sen nem gorog tolmacsolasban. Mivelhogy torok-go-
rog parviadal volt a donto. Szulejmanoglut ket na-
gyon jo gorog emelo szorongatta, es csak a legutol-
so gyakorlat dontotte el, hogy nem a gorog az olim-
piai bajnok.  A gorog nem birt a 190 kiloval.

Az egyik magyar versenyzonek igen furcsa magyar
neve volt: Adrean Popa. Tud valaki tobbet rola ?

Ja, nemcsak nekunk, hanem a nemeteknek sem ugy
alakul az uszas, ahogy elkepzeltek. Eddig nekik
sincs aranyuk, pedig biztosak voltak egy-kettoben.
Nagy ott is a szomorusag.

+ - Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Mpflerr > wrote:
>Az is lehet hogy NPA-nek "vaj volt a fejen" mas ugybol kifojolag
>es ez a feljelentes utan rabeszeltek, hogy angolosan tavozzon.

Meg az is lehet, hogy te egyszeruen rosszhiszemu vagy, s Nemenyirol,
akinek cikkei nem tetszenek, mindent elhiszel, csak jot nem.
Egyebkent alig hiheto el rola, hogy mar ugyis vaj volt a fejen, amikor
epp elotte kapott elismerest jo munkajaert.

Ha mar arrol van szo, mit hiszunk es mit nem, en inkabb elhiszem, hogy
itt az ADL, vagy hasonlo szervezet kozbelepeserol lehet szo, mint ahogy
annak idejen a CBS TV "60 Minutes" programmjat is megprobaltak
cenzurazni a Solomon Morel portre ("The Commander") ugy kapcsan.  A CBS
becsuletere legyen mondva, ott azt nem ertek el.  Kormanyburokrataknal
ez sokkal konnyebben megy.

Pannon J.
+ - Újvidéki "Napló" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Az Újvidéki "Napló" ideiglenes címe:
(URL) <a href=http://web.idirect.com/~pedro/naplo/naplo9.htm">Napló</a>
Baráti üdvözlettel
Kaslik Péter, E-Mail:
+ - Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>Mar megint ez az elftars kifejeze. Ez szerinted mit takar?
Az egy huron penduloket.

+ - Re: Another broadcasting stupidity (was: Re: Hungary OM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Luckily I don't have to watch American TV cover on the games.
> Virtually I have a choice amongst 10 or so channels that
> broadcast the games incuding British, German, Swiss, French
I never understood it either. During the Euro `96 football championship,
for example, at least two of the four terrestrial channels of Britain
broadcast the very same match. And usually a third one covered some
other sporting event (i.e. crickett, horse racing or tennis). I'm not a
great fan of sports on telly, so perhaps it explains my mental
limitations, but could anyone please explain, whom this programs policy
is beneficial?

And this seems to happen again (and again...) during the olympic games.

+ - Re: TO MR. KEELER FROM MARIA (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Wally Keeler,
>Not just the Italian
>group, but also in the Czech and Slovak group. God knows why she would
>post her trash there.

She also posted her stuff to the French group.

+ - Re: A Petőfi Rádió interjúja Neményi Péter Andrással (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
   T. Kocsis > wrote:

>Talán az a baj, hogy eleve feltételezed, hogy NPA
>1. optimalis dontest hozott
>2. racionalisan dontott
>Gondold a helyebe magad, ha teged erne egy ilyen tamadas, ilyen
>varatlanul, ennyire fenntrol, ennyire kesz tenyek ele allitva,
>tudnal-e azonnal egy racionalis es optimalis dontest hozni. En
>magam attol tartok nem, legalabbis eddig hasonlo (csak tavolrol)
>helyzetekben hozott elso reakciomat utolag mindig modositani,
>finomitani kellett.

Teljesen igazad van Tamas, mindenki csinal hulyesegeket, en is.
Csak en nem reklamozom oket ilyen hevvel :)

Szaszvari Peter
+ - Ektelenseg (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
   T. Kocsis > wrote:
>In article > Peter Szaszvari,
>>Szep, hogy valakinek van ideje ekezeteket tenni a leveleimre, amit en direkt 
>>nem csinalok, pedig nem kis idot toltottem pont olyan programok irasaval 
>>ezt teszik lehetove. (ld.: www lap)
>Miért lennne idő kérdése ? Csak minimális extramunkát igényel
>Macintosh esetén.  ;-) 
A lenyeg a ragozason volt. Valaki MAS tett ekezetet az EN levelemre amikor en 
Mindebben liberalis szemleletem vezet, hogy az is tudja olvasni aki nem "MIME" 

Sosem hasznalnek MAC-et ha nem kenyszeritenek de ekezetet azt termeszetesen 
konnyeden tudok tenni es olvasni is (PC-n).

(Indithatunk egy jo kis PC-MAC hitvitatat itt van mind a ketto :)

Szaszvari Peter
+ - Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  > wrote:
| Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
| >
| >Ez csodalatos, hogyan sikerult Nemenyinek elerni, hogy a Petofiben interjut 
| >keszitsenek vele?
| Mibol gondolod, hogy Nemenyi erte azt el? Nekem inkabb az volt a
| benyomasom, hogy ot ertek el a radiotol.  Persze nem csodalkoznek, ha
| azota azt a radiost is javaban furnak ugyanazok a "busy body"-k, akik
| Nemenyit is megfurtak.
| PJ

Erdekes. mintha azt hallottam volna hogty a Magyar Radio a
Liberalis Medicezaroke, akik mast mint liberalis velemenyt
kicenzuraznak.. talan meg sincs diktatura?

+ - Re: Just how bad was communism morally? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T.M.Lutas wrote:


> In your opinion, is communism, irrespective of its practicality, a moral
> system or an immoral system? Why?

Those are badly formulated questions. In order to have a meaningful discussion,
a few definitions should be agreed on first. What is your understanding of the
word "communism"? What is your understanding of "morality"? What rules do you
use to say whether a thing is moral or not? You can only say "communism (or 
capitalism, or byciclism) is moral/immoral BASED ON THOSE CRITERIA". If, 
however, you do not state the criteria, you commit a reasoning error.

Please notice that the idea of "morality" is very much a subjective one.
Even if within a certain culture you may find a number of common ideas
about morality, there is much individual variation, and there are major
differences between cultures. Therefore your questions may not find a 
good answer, unless you severely limit the scope of the discussion.

> If communism is immoral, then what is the moral responsibility of those
> who have *not* been engaged in criminal acts but have merely gone along
> with evil for personal gain?

The same problem applies. "Evil" is a subjective (and emotional) word. You
must define the terms.


> Just trying to relight the fires,
> DB
> --
> The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
> Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
> Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
> These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such


Cosmin Corbea

+ - ROMANIANS, VLACHS, ROMANS. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I know lots of Hungarians in United States and other foreign lands who 
are presenting the Romanians as Gipses.Advancing the idea that 
The HUNGARIANS know very well the history of the Romanians(Olah,Vlacv).
Unfortunatly,some of the Hungarians(+Austrians,implicitly Germans) in the 
West try desperately (guided by the nostalgia of the Austro-Hungarian 
Empire) to degrade the Romanians to the point where they will fill 
inferior.(With no Roman Roots).
And all this is because they(Hungarians +Germanics)did not accommodate 
with the idea that Transilvania is part of Romania.
For those Hungarians who ignore HISTORY:

                                                      PART I

Note: In the following article I used Romanians(Vlachs) = ROMANS. The = 
sign should be interpreted as: direct descendants of the Romans,people 
connected culturaly,racialy,to the Romans.

The Romanians were known in the past as:

VALACHUS (By the Catholic West)
FLACI(By catholic West)
IFLAK (By the Turks)
VLASI & VOLOH (By the Slavs)
OLAH &BLACH (By the Hungarians)
OLAHOK (By the Hungarians)
OLASZOK (The Hungarian name for the Italians)
WALACH (By the Germans)
WALSCHER (The German name for the Italians)
BLACHOS & VLACHOS (By the Greeks)
BLOCH (By the Saxons in Transilvania)
WOLOSZY (By the Polish)
WLOCHI (The Polish name for the Italians)

In old German WALH = ROMAN
In old slavonic VLAST = POWER(considered of Gothic origin)
In old slavonic VLAST = GIGANTE

Romanians always called themselves ROMANS & RUMANS,and the neighbors 
called them Vlachs,Vlasi,Olahs,etc.
If we mention few Chronicals where the Romanians are mentioned we are 
going to learn more.


From "De administrando imperio".Constantine's surname, 
PORPHYROGENITUS(that is, born in the Purple Chamber of the Imperial 

 "The emperor Diocletian was much enamored of the country of Dalmatia,and 
he brought folk with their families from ROME and settled them in this 
same country of Dalmatia,and they were called ROMANI (VLACHS) from their 
having been removed from ROME, and this title attaches to them until this 

"The territory possessed by the ROMANI used to extend as far as the river 
(Constantine shows that the ROMANS(Latins, NOT Greek Romans or 
Byzantines) or Vlachs are the original Romans.

"The country of the ZXHLUMI was previously possessed by the ROMANS, I 
mean, by those ROMANI whom Diocletian the emperor translated from ROME"
(Constantine is talking about the Imperial Romans,who are going to be 
known under the name of VLACHS).
"The country of Diocleia was also previously possessed by the 
ROMANI(Vlachs) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME"

"The country in which the Pagani now dwell was also previously possessed 
by the ROMANI(Vlachs) whom the emperor Diocletian translated from ROME 
and settled in Dalmatia".

"At that time when the Avars had fought and expelled from those parts the 
ROMANI(Vlachs) whom the emperor Diocletian had brought from ROME and 
settled there,and who therefore called ROMANI from their having been 
translated from ROME to those countries"

SUMMARY: In his description of the Greek Roman Empire,we can definitely 
identify two people,the Imperial Romans(VLACHS-those Romans  who 
initiated the empire),called by Constntine,ROMANI, and the Greek 
Romans(BYZANTINES-those Romans who adopted GREEK as the language of the 
State and Church).

POPE CLEMENT 6 (1342-1352).

"Olachi Romani,commorantes in partibus Ungariae,Transilvanis,Ultralpinis 
et Sirmus"
(In Hungary,Transilvania,Muntenia and Sirmia live the Roman-Vlachs)
"Tam nobilibus quam popularibus Olachis Romanis"

SUMMARY: Romanians = Romans (Vlachs).

 POPE PIUS II (1458-1464) (Commentarium rerum memorabilium)

"VALACHI lingua utuntur Italica, verum imperfecta, et admodum corrupta; 
sunt qui legiones Romanas eo missas olim censeant adversus Dacos, qui eas 
terras incolebant; legionibus Flaccum quendam praefuisse, a que Flacci 
primum,deinde Valachi, mutatis litteris, sint appellati;quorum posteri 
(ut ante relatum est) "

(The Vlachs are a people of Roman origin,born from an antic Roman 
Imperial colony,speaking a language close to Latin or Italian)

Nicolaus Machinensis, episcop of Modrussa ( DALMATIA)

"Inferiora vero quaecumque Ister Boristenesque intercipt usque ad Ponti 
ripas Valacchi obtinent,
romani quondam vel exules vel milites, a duce Flacco ita cognominati, 
nunc immutatione litterae Vlacchi appellati: quo vocabulo non modo ea 
gens sed omnes quoque finitimae nationes hodie Italos nominant. Valacchi 
originis suae illud praecipuum prae se ferunt argumentum quod, quamvis 
Mysorum lingua quae illyrica est omnes utantur, vernaculo tamen sermone, 
hoc est latino haud prorsus obsoleto ab incunabulis loquuntur; et cum 
ignotis congressi, dum linguae explorant comertium, an ROMANAE loqui 
norint interrogant".


( Romanians/Vlachs = Romans)

Janus Pannonius,Hungarian Humanist/Poet (1434-1472)

"Sarmatici montes et vos septemplici Istri 
Caerulea Euxinio cornua mixta Mari,
Ac tu Romanis olim possessa colonis
Sed iam corrupto, barbara rerra, sono 
Quid dominum lentis longe retinetis in armis?"


(Romanians/Vlachs = Romans)

Alessandro Cortesi (1469-1491),Poet.

"An procul expusos Nomadas, serasque luentes
Pastores rupto Siculos pro foedere poenas?
Trinacriae Siculos quondam, Schythiaeque colonos,
Fortia magnanimos praebentes colla Valachos,
Qui referunt prisca Roamanam ab origine gentem?"


POPE Innocent III (in  a latter from 1203).

"Therefore, we, who have been appointed by the will of GOD and Father,
unworthy as we are, as vicars and successors of the Apostolic See, to 
prove by the force of facts our fatherly love for the Church of the 
Bulgarians and ROMANIANS (VLACHS),who are said to be THE DESCENDENTS OF 
THE ROMANS,by their flesh and blood"

POPE Innocent III (in a letter addressed to IONITA, lord of the 
Bulgarians and Romanians,from 1203)

"Thus, taking this into account, we have decided since long, through our 
envoy or our letters, that we should pay a visit to your lordship, so 
that,realizing your faith to the Roman Church,Your Mother, we might then 
ROMANS...As, he (God the Father) will help you to be a ROMAN in this 
wordily life and for your Eternal Salvation by your own striving, the 
same as you are BY YOUR DESCENT; and he shall help the people of your 
country, which say that they are the ROMANS,blood and flesh".

Enea Silvio Piccolomini, "Cosmography" 1501.

"Transilvania...,it is inhabited by three peoples: the Saxons, the 
Szecklers and the ROMANIANS.
The Saxons had come from Saxony,and are strong men,used to the struggle...
The Szecklers are considered the most ancient Hungarians...,The ROMANIANS 
are of Italian stock..., A colony of the ROMANS was settled there (Dacia) 
to keep a tight rein over Dacians under the leadership of a certain 
Flaccus, after whose name the coutry was called Flacohia and its 
inhabitants were called VLACHS instead of Flacci. This people speaks now 
a ROMAN idiom, although partly changed,and hardly understood by an 

Francesco della Valle,1532,(Secretary of Aloisio Gritti,a natural son to 
Doge Andrea Gritti).

"The Romanians(Vlachs) are of Italian stock, and according to them, they 
are the descendants of the OLD ROMANS".

The anonymous notary of King Bela,Gesta Hungarorum.

"For, after king Attila's death,the ROMANS called the soil of Panonia a 
graze field as,their herds used to graze in the country of Panonia.And 
they were right in calling the Panonian soil the grazing fields of the 
ROMANS, as even nowadays, the ROMANIANS(Vlachs) feed their sheep on the 
Hungarian estates".

IOAN KINNAMOS(Imperial secretary under two Byzantine emperors, Manuel I & 

"It is said about the Vlachs that they are the old descendents of those 
from Italy".

Poggio Bracciolini (1380-1459),"Disceptationes convivales", Florentine 

"Apud superiores Sarmatas colonia est ab Traiano ut aiunt derelicta, quae 
nunc etiam inter tantam barbariem multa retinet latina vocabula, ab 
Italis, qui eo profecti sunt, notata.
Oculum dicunt, digitum, manum,panem,multaque alia quibus apparet ab 
Latinis, qui coloni ibidem relicti fuerunt, manasse eamque coloniam 
fuisse latino sermoneusam".

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs = Romans).

Flavio Biondo(1392-1463), Humanist.

"Et qui e rgione Danubio item adiacent Ripenses Daci, sive Valachi,
originem, quam ad decus prae se ferunt praedicantque ROMANAM, loquela 
ostendunt, quos catholice christianos ROMAN quotannis et Apostolorum 
limina invisentes, aliquando gavisi sumus ita loquentes audiri, ut, quae 
vulgari communique gentis suae more dicunt, rusticam male grammaticam 
redoleant latinitatem"

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs= Romans).

NICOLAUS MACHINENSIS, Episcop of Dalmatia, under Pope Pius II.

"Inferiora vero quaecumque Ister Boristenesque intercipt usque ad Ponti 
ripas Valacchi obtinent, romani quondam vel exules vel milites, a duce 
Flacco ita cognominati, nunc immutatione litterae Vlacchi appellati: quo 
vocabulo non modo ea gens sed omnes quopue fimitimae nationes hodie 
Italos nominant".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Janus Pannonicus (1434-1472), The most important Hungarian Humanist.

"Sarmatici montes et vos septemplicis Istri
Caerulea Euxinio cornua mixta Mari,
Ac tu Romanis olim possessa colonis
Sed iam corrupto, barbara terra, sono
Quid domimum lentis longe retinetis in armis?".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Filippo Buonaccorsi Callimaco (1438-1496), Italian Political Annalist.

"Sed utcunque immensus uel infinitus potios, eadem ubuque lingua et 
praeter Romanorum coloniam Valachiam gentes omnes eadem primordia 
"Fama nouae coloniae aliquamdiu motus Scuthios compescuit.Deinde non 
solum propulsantibus, sed egregie etiam inferentibus bellum Romanis datae 
acceptaeque sunt utrinque paene innumerabiles clades, cum pleraque a 
caesaribus supplementa et auxilia suis mitterentur".

Summary: Romanian (Vlachs) = Romans.

Jan Dlugosz (1415-1480),Polish Chronicler.

"(1359) Stephano Moldaviae Voievodae, apud Valachos mortuo, quorum 
maiores et aboriginarii de Italiae Regno pulsi ( genus et natio Volscorum 
esse fuisseque creduntur) veteribus Dominis et colonis Ruthenis, primum 
sudole, deinde abundante in dies multitudine, ".

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs )= Romans.

Raffaelo Maffei Volterano (1506),Italian Humanist.

"Eo quod Romanos, ut dixi, accepere colonos, pleraque uocabula loquuntur 
lingua semijtalica,argumento est nomen Valachiam enim appellant, quod 
Valach Italicum lingua ipsorum dicatur".

Summary: Romanians ( Vlachs = Romans).

Marcantonio Coccio(1436- 1506), Italian Historian.

"Valachi italicum genus hominum: horum terram Daci olim tenuerunt: nunc 
Teutones, Siculi et Valachi tenent... Valachorum nobilissimi qui 
agriculturam et qui pecuariam exercent".

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs) = Romans.

Felix Petancici(1445-1517), Humanist from Ragusa.

"Haec est provincia Dacia dicta apud veteres, Romanorum colonia(unde eius 
aborigines hac etiam nostra tempestate) passim latino utuntur colloquio".

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs) = Romans.

Joachim Vadian(1484-1551),Swiss Humanist.

"Supra Cataractas Danubius, infra vero Ister dicitur, sunt autem hae 
maximae, intre montes Dacorum Straboni, eos hodie Iazigibus et 
Transiluanis subiunctos, Walachos nominant, vocabulo Boemis Sarmatisque 
uernaculo, quod inde natum uidetur, namque ‘ty Vlasschi' Italos nominant 
quos ibi consedisse ex Pannonicis Sarmaticisque Romanorum bellis constant,
cum ne hodie quidem eorum lingua ab Italica multum sit absona".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Stephan Taurinus (1485-1519), Moravian Humanist.

"Valachia vulgo Latinis Vlaccia dicitur, provintia Pannoniae 
Cisdanubianae contermina in pontum usque descendens cum Damubo, veteres 
inferiorem Moesiam dixere, vide superius loco suo. Inde Vlacci Vlacciae 
populi, quos vulgus Valachos appellant".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Johann Boemus (1520), German Humanist.

"Sed ea Thraciae pars quae Gethica olim dicebat, vbi Darius Hidaspis 
filius pene perijt, hodie Valachia appellatur, a Flaccis quiritum gente, 
Rhomani enim Gethis superatis et deletis Flacci cuiusdam ductu eo 
Coloniam miserunt, vnde prumum Flaccia, dein corrupta voce Vallacia 

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Sebastian Franck (1499-1543), German Humanist.

"In didem landt (Walachia) haben ettwan das volck Gethe gewonet, die 
gross krieg gebraucht haben, zu letst mit den Rhomischen waffen ernider 
gerruckt, abgetilckt vnd mit yhrem volck besetzt, vnder dem Rhomischen 
hauptmann Flacco, von dem sy Flaccia nachmals vnlang Walachia gnant 
worden ist, das diss volcks spraach noch heut her meysttheyl Rhomisch ist,
 doch also corrumpiert, daz sy einem Rhomer kaum verstendtlich seind"

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs) = Romans.

Georg Rithaymer(1563), Austrian Humanist.

"Valachi Italicum genus hominum in colonias huc missum, plane in mores 
Getarum abierunt, ita nihil antiquae originis suae retinent, praeter 
linguam quam barbare et corrupte conant".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Nicolaus Olahus(1493-1568),Romanian(Vlach) Humanist.

"Lingua, ritu, religione eadem Moldavi utuntur, qua Transalpini; vestitu 
aliqua saltem ex parte differunt...Sermo eorum et aliorum Valachorum fuit 
olim Romanus, vt qui sint coloniae Romanorum: nostra tempestate, maxime 
ab eo differt; praeterquam quod multa eorum vocabula, latinis sint 
intelligibilia...Valachi, Romanorum coloniae esse traduntur. Eius rei 
argumentum est, quod multa habeant communia cum idiomate Romano, cuius 
populi pleraque numismata, eo laci reperiuntur; haud dubie, magna 
vetustatis imperiique Romani istic indicia".

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs) = Romans.

Theodor Bibliander(1548),Swiss Humanist.

"Post irruptiones Gothorum et Germanicarum gentium et Sclavinorum, atque 
lacerationem et ruinam, imperij, sermo provincialis degeneravit longius a 
sua origine, ut in provincia Daciae Vualachorum lingua, Vlasky enim 
Italum aut Walhen sonat Slavis. Idem accidit in Hispanijs, in Gallia, 
denique in ipsa Italia, in Latio, in urbe domina gentium et sede Romanae 

Summary: Romanians(Vlachs) = Romans.

Iacob Heraclid,Despot-Voda, prince of Moldovia.

"Con voi valenti homeni et gente bellicosa discesi dali balorosi Romani, 
quali hano fatto trmer il mondo... Et a questo se faremo cognoscer a 
tutto il mondo li veri Romani et discesi da queli et il nome nostro sara 
immortale et conergeremo l'imagine di nostri padri".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Stanislaw Orzechowski(1513-1566),Polish Humanist.

"Hi (sc. Daci) erant ex Italis Romanisque proceati, qui Duce Lucio 
Valerio Flacco cum Daciam occupavissent, in hisque Regionibus uxores 
duxissent, ac consenuissent, hoc Dacos reliquerunt, qui eorum lingua 
Romini a Romanis, nostra Walachi, ab Italis appellantur. Wloszy enim 
Polonis idem est, quod Itali Latinis".

Summary: Romanians (Vlachs) = Romans.

Martin Opitz(1597-1639), The father of modern German literature.

"Doch ewre (der Romer) Sprache bleibt noch hier auff diesen Tag,
Darob man dich gewiss gar billich wundern mag.
Italien hat selbst nicht viel von seinem alten
Ingleichen Spanien vnd Gallia behalten:
Wie wenig diese nun den Romern ehnlich sein,
So nahe sind verwandt Walachisch und Latein"

"Es steckt manchs edles Blut in kleinen Bawrenhutten,
Das noch den alten brauch vnd der Vorfahren sitten
Nicht gantzlich avgelegt. Wie dann jhr Tantz anzeigt,
In dem so wunderbar gebuckt wird und geneigt,
Gesprungen in die hoh, auff  art der Capreolen,
Die meine Deutschen sonst auss Franckrich mussen holen,
Bald wird ein Kreiss gemacht, bald wiederumb zutrant,
Bald gehn die Menscher recht, bald auff der lincken hand,
Die Menscher, die noch jtzt fast Romisch muster tragen,
Zwar schlecht, doch witzig sein, viel dencken, wenig sagen"

Romanians(Vlachs) = Romans.



Or( Romanian Foreign Sources on the Romanians).

                                                         PART II

                                           THE HISTORY OF GYPSY.

"The Gypsies of Eastern Europe" Editted by David Crowe and John Kolsti 
with an introduction by Ian Hancock.


In the long course of the Gypsy experience in Eastern Europe, none has 
been worse than that in Romania.
Within several centuries after Gypsies entered the medieval provinces of 
Wallachia and Moldavia, they began to be enslaved, a condition that 
lasted until the mid-nineteenth century.Although slavery was not a 
condition peculiar to Gypsies or the Balkans at the time, the deep-seated,
 dehumanizing prejudice that has characterized the historic Romanian 
relationship with Gypsies produced a socioeconomic caste system that 
resulted in the ‘social death' of Gypsies as Romanian slaves, and...Over 
the next century, Gypsy slavery became institutionalize in the Romanian 
Provinces...In the aftermath of his campaigns against the Ottoman Empire 
in northern Bulgaria in 1461-1462, the Wallachian ruler, Vlad Tepes(the 
Impaler), brought back 11,000-12,000 Gypsies(or Gypsy -like people ) to 
his capital where he tortured and killed some for his entertainment....
Stephen the Great (1457-1504), brought 17'000 Gypsies back from his 
campaigns in Wallachia in 1471 to use as slave labor.His move, however, 
simply strengthened a practice supported by law, which, for example, 
stated that any Moldavian that got a Gypsy pregnant and wanted to marry 
her would lose his status and have to become a slave. Later, ‘any 
Moldavian who married a gipsy himself joined the ranks of the robi' ".



The Byzantines writers never reefers to the GYPSIES as ROMANI, nobody did.
The name ROM, ROMY started to appear late at the beginning of the 20th. 
Century.The name of ROM comes from the Gypsies word DOM(probably a 
religious term). Now from DOM to ROMANI is a long way,and unacceptable to 
the Romanians for obvious reasons.

Albert Egorov.
+ - Re: Hungary OMMITED! Write NBC! Drink Pepsi! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think there is big misunderstanding about commercials, etc. during the 
parade of nations.  The nations took quite a long time to reach there final 
destination in the infield.  I think they could have easily cut away for 
commercials and made it back to show the teams they missed during the 
commercial.  NBC certainly has enough camera and camera men to cover the 
whole trip around the track.  The point is that NBC made no attempt to show 
all the nations, they think it too boring.  Bob Costas insulted many of the 
countries they did show.  Only Dick Enberg made a sincere attempt to say 
something positive about each country, or say nothing at all.  The coverage 
is very emblematic of a country that wants to be a world leader in everything 
and the most powerful country in the world, while ignoring the rest of the 
world.  I am quite glad that coverage of the gymnastics event has shown much 
more attention to other teams as well as our own than the opening ceremonies 

Ale White
+ - Another broadcasting stupidity (was: Re: Hungary OMMITE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Luckily I don't have to watch American TV cover on the games.
Virtually I have a choice amongst 10 or so channels that
broadcast the games incuding British, German, Swiss, French
and Italian channels plus Eurosport and few other newschannels.
But it worth nothin'  'cose they always show exactly the same
stuff. It is completely stupid even in advertising standpoint.

Europe is big. There is enough people who wants to see some-
thing else instead of swimming or basketball for instance. If
one chanell would follow this tactics could make good money
out of it...

+ - Re: Ektelenseg (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
>A lenyeg a ragozason volt. Valaki MAS tett ekezetet az EN levelemre amikor en 

Bocs, ezt nem vettem eszre, bar en nem tartom ezt olyan nagy
skandalumnak. Attordelni, hibakat kijavitani en is szoktam ma-
sok idezeteiben.

>Mindebben liberalis szemleletem vezet, hogy az is tudja olvasni aki
>nem "MIME" kompatibilis.

Ez erdekes kerdes. En furcsanak tartom, hogy egy ilyen gyorsan
fejlodo iparagban, mint szamitastechnika es programozas, kialakult
ez az irracionalis ragaszkodas a 7 bites kommunikaciohoz, meg az
ASCII-hez, ami az angolszasz nyelvet - es azt is hianyos betukesz-
lettel -erolteti olyan nyelvekre, amelyek lenyegesen tobb betuvel
rendelkeznek. Ezzel gyakorlatilag nyelvtanilag helytelen irasra keny-
szeriti az embert.

Es abszurd, hogy az az embert megfléjmelik egy
rossz angol tobbesszamert,  igeidoegyeztetesert vagy helytelenul
hasznalt szoert olyan emberek, akik magyar irasa az ekezetek hianya
miatt egy-ket szo utan barmely gimnaziumi dolgozatban elegtelennek
minosulne. (Mint most az enyime)  :-)

Pontosan ez az a kornyezet, ahol ki lehet kenyszeriteni, hogy az a sok
lusta ember valtoztasson a mexokott eletstilusan es vegye a faradt-
sagot, hogy uj rendszert instalaljon a gepere, esatobbi-esatobbi. Nem
ertek egyet azzal, hogy mert par ember lusta atallni a 8 bites kom-
munikaciora , nekem ilyen hibasan kell hasznalnom az anyanyelvemet.
Egyszeruen rosszul nez ki a magyar ekezetek nelkul. Pedig csupan raj-
tunk mulik, hogy atalljunk az ekezetesre.

>(Indithatunk egy jo kis PC-MAC hitvitatat itt van mind a ketto :)

Jaj , csak azt ne. A t#kom tele van veluk.

+ - Re: A Petofi Radio interjuja Nemenyi Peter Andrassal (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  > wrote:
| Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:
| >
| > Nehany heti intenziv hecckampany csodakra kepes az erdeklodes
| >felkorbacsolasahoz ;-(.
| Hecckampany, amit valoszinuleg a te elftarsaid okoztak a jellemtelen
| feljelentesukkel. 

Mar megint ez az elftars kifejeze. Ez szerinted mit takar?

| > Az igazi kerdes nem ez, hanem: ha jogserelem erte
| >volna NPA-t, akkor miert nem a dontesert felelos munkaltatot cibalja
| >birosag ele 'wrongful dismissal' cimen ahelyett, hogy a mediaban
| >serenykedik es a "feljelentoin" valo peres bosszuallassal fenyeget? 
| Tudod te egyaltalan mibe kerulnek itt az ugyvedek?  Olyat talalni pedig,
| aki elvallalja az ugyet "contingency fee" alapon, valoszinu nem olyan
| gyors dolog.  Egyebkent en nem lennek olyan biztos, hogy az ugynek vege
| van. Kulonben ha en Nemenyi lennek, akkor megprobalkoznek a Freedom of
| Information torveny adta lehetoseg reven megszerezni a feljelentes
| szoveget a DOE-tol.  Persze ha per lesz, akkor valoszinuleg a subpoena
| segitsegevel is meg lehet azt szerezni.

Ezzel en is egyetertek.
Egyebkent nem tudom hogy ne,m lenne e ugyved aki ezt
elvallalja anelkul hogy Nemenyinek elore kellene
fizetnie.Kulonosen hoa ugy erzik hjogy jogseretes tortent
amibol ok is penzt csinalhatnak maguknak is.

| > Az a teny, hogy az amerikai birosagra sokkal kevesebb hatassal lenne az
| >alkotmanyra (a munkaszerzodesnek ellentmondo szamitogep-hasznalat fole
| >kiterjedo allitolagos vedelem forrasara) valo fals hivatkozas mint a
| Amilyen kreativak tudnak itt lenni az ugyvedek, biztos van par lehetoseg
| az Argonne akcioja ellen.  Ha pl. bebizonyosodik, hogy ott valoban az
| alkalmazottak e-mailezesenek tulnyomo resze privat, (ami szerintem ugy
| is van), akkor talan be lehetne kapaszkodni a "selective enforcement"
| alapjan.

.... latod! :)