Emil Racila > wrote:

 (Ferenc Istvan Vaski) wrote:



>Is this an official Hungarian version on W.W.I or just another 
>electrical engineer's contribution to History?


.....well let's hear your version...or have you not taken the time to
look into one?...and do you have something against electrical
engineer's?.. :)

Gondolom jo paran olvassatok a HUNGARY listaban megjelent leveleket is,
amik kozott szerepelt egy regi FORUMozo, Rona-Tas Akos par eves cikkenek
ujrakozlese Kornai Andras altal.

Mivel biztos sokan vagytok, akik az Antall kormany elso eveiben meg
nem olvastatok a FORUMot, s igy esetleg bedultetek Rona-Tas tetszetosnek
hangzo, de egyoldalu beallitasanak, hadd eresszek mar meg en, mint
erintett, is egy megjegyzest:  "Azert nem ugy volt az, ahogy Rona-Tas
azt megirta."  Ugyanis Rona-Tas semmi esetre sem volt egy objektiv
szemleloje az akkori vitaknak, hanem nagyonis benne volt a szadesz parti
oldalon, mint vitazo.  Ezert aztan elemzesere is nagyon raillik az a
jelzo, amit angolul legjobban a "self-serving" szo fejez ki.  (Hogy van
ez magyarul?) 

Ahogy en emlekszem a SZALON kivalasat eloidezo vitak eredetere, azok
nagyjabol tukroztek az otthoni ertelmisegi vitakat.  It is volt egy
szadesz parti csoport, amelyik minden alkalmat megragadott az alig
megalakult Antall kormany, s az altala kepviselt nemzeti vonal
tamadasara, amivel eredetileg csak kb. 5 ember (a "CSEPPSZ") vette fel a
harcot.  Az valo igaz, hogy a vitak sokszor ugy elfajultak, hogy indulatos,
meggondolatlan "ervek" is bevetesre kerultek, de ez mindket oldalra jellemzo
volt.  Ami talan a masik oldal szovegeit tetszetosebbe teszi az az, hogy
soraikban ketsegtelenul tobb a jo iroi venaval rendelkezo (verbalis) tag, 
mint a jobboldal soraiban.  Szerencsere azota sok viz folyt le a Dunan,
s az eredeti "otosfogatot" egy hatasosabb, joreszt otthoni illetosegu
tobbseg valtotta fel a FORUMon, akik kozott tobb, nagyon jotollu iro is
van.  Sajnos van koztuk par olyan is, akik nem ertelmisegiekhez illo
nyelvet hasznalnak.  Ez nem igen hasznal az altaluk kepviselt ugynek.
Megjegyzem, hogy a Rona-Tas altal olyan eloszeretettel pocskondiazott
CSEPPSZ quintett egyik tagja sem hasznalt olyan nyelvet, mint amit
nehanyan a kesobbjottek kozul megengednek maguknak.  (Mi legfeljebb a
Kadar Jugend csaladi hatteret es motivacioit firtattuk, amiert olyan
egysegesen elleneztek a volt bolsi elit felelossegrevonasat, pl.  Persze
ezt ok azota is megbocsathatatlan bununknek tartjak, mikozben
uton-utfelen hirdetik a "felejtsuk el a multat" elvet a kommunistakkal
kapcsolatban.)

Azert a FORUM minden fogyatekossaga ellenere idotallonak bizonyult, mig
a SZALON az idonkenti fellangolasoktol eltekintve, csak vegetal.  Sot, a
kivalaskor nagy "ajtodurranassal" tavozottak kozul is jo paran szepen
visszasomfordaltak a FORUMba, megha ott kisebbsegi velemenyt is
kepviselnek.  Ha meg komoly visszabeszeles veszelye nelkul akarnak valamit
irni, vagy ocsarolni a FORUMot, arra meg mindig ott van a SZALON, vagy
az angol nyelvu HUNGARY lista.  Ott meg az Elek is nyugodtan lenacizhat
akit akar, s azert csak utemes tapsot kap. 

Pannon J.

Ki tudna fizetes elleneben megszabott programokat irni?
Kerem jelentkezzen a koevetkezoe cim alatt:
*******************************

*******************************
ill. a honlapom alatt:

**************************************
http://www.trade-center.com/pro/
**************************************

Varom valaszukat
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"Susan_W._Almy" > wrote:

:>Couldn't you please stop this game?  It is a pain to have to delete it 
:>from each of my newsgroups..

I support above plea !

Philippe

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
 writes:
>Szoval lehet valaki akarmilyen tehetseges matematikus peldaul, ha
>nem egy  nyelvtehetseg, nincsenek jo kapcsolatai vagy egyszeruen
>nincs kedve hatrahagyni csaladjat, az nem alkalmas a katedrara.

A rovid valaszom: igen. 

>Kerdem en, miert kellene egy tehetseges kutatonak egyben 
>uzletembervagymiafasznak lennie ahhoz hogy fennmaradjon.

????

A ti csoportotok honnan szerzi a penzt ? Nem palyazatokbol,
vallalatoktol, alapitvanyoktol ? Ennek osszegrundolasa nem
kivan meg egy uzletemberi mentalitast ? A kutatocsoport ve-
zetojenek el kell adnia a kutatasi programjat, terveit (ponto-
san ugyanugy, mint amikor egy vallalkozo egy projectre bank-
kolcsont kivan felvenni).
Tudtommal ez a termeszetes finanszirozasi rendszer nyugaton,
de javits ki ha rosszul tudom.

>Jo, legyenek a kutatok kofak, es mi van a kozepiskolai tanarokkal.
>Azok is menjenek kulfoldre, vagy tozsdezzenek, vagy miabanatot
>csinaljanak.

Ez is nagy hibaja az otthoni szemleletnek. Ne keverjuk giziket
a  gozekevel. Tudtommal afrika tegnap is ott volt a kozepiskolai
terkepen,  ahol ma van es holnap is ott lesz. Az also es kozep-
foku oktatasban nem folyik kutatas, lezart altalanos tenyanyagot
adnak ki megtanulasra. Az oktatas metodikajaban lehet vilagszinvo-
nalu, de a tartalmat tekintve nem az, csupan atlagmuveltseg.
Mig az egyetemen ha valaszthatok a folyekonyan es szepen be-
szelo, pedagogiaialg fejlett technikakat hasznalo, de szakmailag
senki tanrseged eloadasa es egy dadogo nobeldijas kinai prof
eloadasa kozott, akkor inkabb megis az utobbira mennek be.
(nem sajat hasonlat)

>Koszonom ismet. Ha jol ertem tehat a "korszeru" oktato-kutato
>kulfoldi  kapcsolatait es eros szakmai hatteret felhasznalva le-
>megy a sarki papirboltba  kretat venni az osszetozsdezett penzbol,
>majd folytatja utjat egyenesen a  Tavfuto Muvek legkozelebbi ki-
>rendeltsegeig, aholis befizeti az egyetem futeset.
>Micsoda kivallo kor, hogy ilyen a szere!

Interpretaciod groteszknek tunik, de ez nem valtoztat azon a te-
nyen, hogy ez igy funkcional. Ha kell nekem peldaul egy uj musza-
ki konyv, akkor lerohanok itt a szembeni muszaki konyvesboltba,
megveszem a konyvet, kerek rola szamlat, azt odaadom a titkar-
nonek, aki ezt a csoport privat penzebol kifizeti. A konyv pedig
megy a csoportunk konyvtaraba (en vagyok a konyvtaros).
De ha olyan filctoll kell eppen, ami nincs lent a Schalterban,
akkor ugyanez az eljaras, csak nem a konyvesboltba, hanem a
melletti papirboltba megyek be. :-) A tavfutomuvekhez hasonlo a
compuserve accountunk, amit ugye megint csoportpenzbol fizetunk.
 
Tamas

International Art Exhibition
                          Reg. Bus. No. 0381513J

Simonne Jameson Ph.D (M.A.)               "Tara", 21 Mill Road, Victor Harbor
International Consultant                  Victor Harbor South Australia 5211 
Organiser                                   Tel/Fax 61 85 52 4264

                              UP TO DATE NEWS

                          "Olympic Art exhibition"


Dear Artist,

After approval of your Art, a CONTRACT between you and the international Art
Exhibition should be signed and together with your FEE forwarded as soon as
possible, due to the limited number of Artists participating in each country
(only 50), 45 painters and 5 sculptors. When this number will be reached, no
more Artists will be accepted

Please note: THE FEE $1,850.O0 is based on 1996 price, and subject to 
increase with yearly inflation to year 2000.

I am happy to confirm dates and venues of the "Olympic Art Exhibition":

ADELAIDE        Ridley Convention and Exhibition Centre, Wayville
                From Friday 15th to Wednesday 20th September 2000

SYDNEY          Show Ground
                From Saturday 23rd to Thursday 28th September 2000

CANBERRA        Show Ground
                From Sunday 1st to Friday 6th October 2000

        CLOSING EXHIBITION IN CANBERRA ON FRIDAY 6th OCTOBER 2000
        where AWARDS will be allocated, in presence of Ambassadors of
        different countries.

                              1st PRIZE: $30,000
                              One Gold Medal
                              One Silver Medal
                              One Bronze Medal

        FOR EACH CATEGORY: PAINTING AND SCULPTURE

Wines will be served, sponsored by South Australian Wineries.


        CLOSING EXHIBITION IN CANBERRA ON FRIDAY 6th OCTOBER 2000
        where AWARDS will be allocated, in presence of Ambassadors of
        different countries.

                              1st PRIZE: $30,000
                              One Gold Medal
                              One Silver Medal
                              One Bronze Medal

        FOR EACH CATEGORY: PAINTING AND SCULPTURE

Wines will be served, sponsored by South Australian Wineries.
CATALOGUES: The catalogue, (Art Book) will be printed as soon the number of
50 Artists for each Country has been achieved, to stay within the quote of
the printing as much as possible. A free copy will be sent to each Artist
included in the Art Book.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any queries.
Yours Sincerely.

PS: Please do not send email. If you need more information, use phone/fax
    above. NOTE: for non-international calls, Victor Harbor is 085 ...

Gyorgy Kovacs ) wrote:
: In article >,
: Wally Keeler > wrote:
: > Mazeratti and Lamborghini are poetry. FOR THE POETBURO
: I.e..: Distant, unaffordable and useless 

: > Ford and Chrysler are after the masses,
: Available, affordable, useful. FOR THE PROLES

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Gabor Barsai ) wrote:
: In article >,
: Wally Keeler > wrote:
: >Well we know you are not a poet and you are not an engineer and you are not
: >a literary critic given the level of inadequate analogy that you produce --
: >dismal. Ford and Chrysler are prosaic; Mazeratti and Lamborghini are
: >poetry. Ford and Chrysler are after the masses, the lowest common
: >denominator, the middle class, the dime-a-dozeners -- so to be economically
: >viable they cannot extend their reach beyond what the Bland Glands of
: >America can grasp.

: Now, Wally, no need to get frustrated again. The same analogy can be applied 
to
: Maseratti and Lamborghini. The reason they are liked is because they appeal t
o 
: eveyone - not just their peers.
: Gabor

No frustration, just the simple fact that a Lamborghini is poetry whereas 
a Ford is prosaic. Although both have appeal for everyone, one caters to 
the lowest common denominator whereas the other is designed for an elite 
-- proles need not apply.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article > Peter Szaszvari,
 writes:
>It was great but what about lobotomy ?
>Or simply shooting down the patient ?

You looks sceptical on the relation between neurosis and 
religiousness and try to make jokes out of me because of it.
However it not my theory, so please flame Carl Gustav Jung
instead. (You may find lot of literature on this topic in any
bigger bookshops or libraries Zurich, because the guy lived
and worked here, and his institute is still functioning here.)

>Are you neurotic ?

No, I don't.

>You stated somewhere before thet you were not religious.

I have not stated it nowhere because it is no one's fuckin'
business.  And I am not middle aged, as a matter of fact
I became 32 just today.

Tamas

In article > , 
writes:
> Ugyanis Rona-Tas semmi esetre sem volt egy objektiv
>szemleloje az akkori vitaknak, hanem nagyonis benne volt a szadesz parti
>oldalon, mint vitazo.

Valoban igy volt. Telen elolvastam - alaposan - az elso 1000 FORUM
szamot, es tenyleg nem volt elfogulatlan vitazo, noha ketsegtelenul
a kulturalt vitat folytatok koze tartozott.

>It is volt egy szadesz parti csoport, amelyik minden alkalmat megra-
>gadott az alig megalakult Antall kormany, s az altala kepviselt nemzeti
>vonal tamadasara, amivel eredetileg csak kb. 5 ember (a "CSEPPSZ") vet-
>te fel a harcot.  Az valo igaz, hogy a vitak sokszor ugy elfajultak, hogy
>indulatos, meggondolatlan "ervek" is bevetesre kerultek, de ez mindket
>oldalra jellemzo volt.

Ami meghokkento volt szamomra -es ez  ujraolvasaskor egyertelmuen
kiderul- hogy nem a nemzeti oldal kezdte a mocskolodast, a piszkosko-
dast. A koztudatban ennek pont az ellenkezoje el, a mai Pelionnisz meg
Szekely produkciokbol kovetkeztetnek az emberek az akkori nemzeti
oldal vitainak szinvonalara.  A vita eldurvulasat a liberalis oldalon
kezdodo mocskolodas valtotta ki, nagyreszuk egyszeruen keptelen volt
elviselni a sajatjatol karakterisztikusan eltero velemenyt, es hisztibe
tort ki.

(Mivel az erdekesebb irasokat szisztematikusan mind lementettem,
ezert ezt az allitast idezetekkel is ala tudnam tamasztani.)

>(Mi legfeljebb a
>Kadar Jugend csaladi hatteret es motivacioit firtattuk, amiert olyan
>egysegesen elleneztek a volt bolsi elit felelossegrevonasat,

Peldaul azt is megertettem, hogy pontosan mit jelent a Kadar-jugend.
Ez a fogalom, amikor en kesobb mas jelentesben elkezdtem hasznalni
(magamra is pedig az eredeti jelentes ertelmeben nem is tartozom
bele abba halmazba), mar foglalt volt. Mostmar tudom ennek is az okat.
Erre egyebkent Te figyelmeztettel tobbszor .

>Azert a FORUM minden fogyatekossaga ellenere idotallonak bizonyult,
>mig a SZALON az idonkenti fellangolasoktol eltekintve, csak vegetal. 

Mondhatni gyakorlatilag halott

>Sot, a kivalaskor nagy "ajtodurranassal" tavozottak kozul is jo paran
>szepen visszasomfordaltak a FORUMba, megha ott kisebbsegi velemenyt
>is kepviselnek.

A legmocskosabb tavozas a Kornaie volt, akinek bucsuirasa meg sem
jelenhetett volna, mert tulvolt a sorlimiten, es megis megjelent (na
hogyan ?).  Azt hiszem ez a legaljasabb iras a forum torteneteben
(Forum #508), igaz en a csunya szavakra kevesbe vagyok erzekeny.

Tamas

Christopher. Armstrong wrote:

> >
>      Now this is too much; now you are persecuting me PUBLICLY! For the
> last time, I did NOT issue a national stereotype: I criticised one! 


No I'm not. 
This was my first answer to your message. Then, when you answered 
privately, I did the same. 
You kind of like to make generalizations, do you?
Anyway, I am sure people are already bothered with that, so be so kind 
to stop it now. Feel free to write to me privately, though.

Bye, and apologies to everyone else.

Carmine Colacino

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>: > Mazeratti and Lamborghini are poetry. FOR THE POETBURO
>: I.e..: Distant, unaffordable and useless
>
>: > Ford and Chrysler are after the masses,
>: Available, affordable, useful. FOR THE PROLES

So that's what your problem is!

Beautiful beach property for sale in Kos, Greece.
Marmari area, white sand, gorgeous view
Can be developed
Call +30-1-8015863 (Athens)

In article >,  (Wally
Keeler) wrote:


> No frustration, just the simple fact that a Lamborghini is poetry whereas 
> a Ford is prosaic. Although both have appeal for everyone, one caters to 
> the lowest common denominator whereas the other is designed for an elite 
> -- proles need not apply.

So if by your analogy you are the lamborghini of poets, to whom "proles
need not apply" what are you doing posting for the masses on SCR?

Oh, BTW: about this supposed elitism of fancy cars. Some of the most 
successful luxury sports car dealerships are in Harlem and like places 
where the successful drug dealers, pimps, extortionists, and arsonists 
create a large trade in BMW's, Mercedes, Lamborghini's etc.

So Oali, what kind of elite *were* you referring to as appropriate for 
your poetic efforts?   B->

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

 (Ferenc Istvan Vaski) wrote :

>>?!?
>>Maybe an economic treaty with Austro-Hungaria means "member of the
>>Triple-Alliance"... ?

>...you missed with this one...

Obviously. I was dead tired, I thought of The Central Powers.
Let's talk about the same thing, what exctly to you understand by
Triple-Alliance and Entente ?

>>From this point of view 1918 was a total success of the romanian
>>political class.They knew how to turn a military defeat (I will
>>clarify your confusion in the matter right after this ) into a
>>political victory. Does that mean that hungarian politicians
>>weren't so abile ? I guess not; it was just that the romanian view
>>on the future of the South Eastern Europe was more adequate in the
>>eyes of The Great Powers just because it was natural.
>
>.... a view that displaced millions of Magyars from thier homeland...

The data that I had access to showed stable ethnic composition 
until the 70's german exodus.
(It's sort of stupid to talk numbers, but please produce them if you
think they'll prove anything.)

>>Romania didn't "marched into", Romania WAS there...
>
>.....if you say so...maybe you could point out how they managed
>this...

Simply because the romanians were there. Living. 
That is de facto, not de jure.

>>>...as well as ignoring it's commitment to an
>>>alliance it had with Poland ....

The Polish government and the national treasure safely reached
London via Bucuresti, when Romania was allied with Germany.
What exactly are you talking about ?

>>I find normal that Romania was looking for a way to get back Basarabia
>>and Bucovina; it was not Antonescu's best choice to fight on the german
>>side ( since they signed the infamous Ribbentrop - Molotov pact )
>
>...good ...then you can understand it being *normal* for Hungary
>wanting Transylvania...

Don't understand, does *normal* have an ironic meaning here ?

>stripes very well ....you conveniently forget things....and as for the

I don't "conveniently forget things", simply because I was too young
at the time to rember everything.

I am just interpreting facts, I am not their depositor;
for that your Encyclopedia will do just well.

I am also aware that historical facts are more subject to the present
than to the past, so they might be described different in different books.
Do you want to find out other versions, do you want to make proselites
or you just wanna have fun ?

>1000 year issue...here we go again...just where where they during this
>time?...

Here YOU go again. Alone.

Subject: Nemzet 1996.05.08.

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N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE  TTTTTTT
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N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE     T

         Magyar Internet Vilaglap

=
ZOLDFOKI SZIGET ES MADAGASZKAR ALATT EGY HARANTUJJAL

[A "Freedom House" minositese a magyar (reszleges)
Szabadsajtorol]

Az 1996 aprilis 15-en megjelent rangsorolas M.o.-ot
a sajto szabadsaga ("Press Freedom") szempontjabol
Magyarorszagot a "Reszben Szabad" osztalyba, a
Zoldfoki Sziget (Cape Verde) es Madagaszkar utan,
a 73-75 helyre sorolja. Nekik 32 hibapontjuk van.
Mi, 34 hibapontunkkal, holtversenyben vagyunk a dobogo
elokelo 73-75-ik lepcsojen Mongoliaval es Hondurassal.
A 34 hibapontot fokent a "politikai ellenorzes es
nyomas a mediatartalomra" kifogas miatt kaptuk (mely
szempontbol orszagunk azonos minositesu Bangladesh-el)
es a "gazdasagi nyomas a mediatartalomra" kifogas
miatt (mely szempontbol M.o. azonos minositesu
Mexikoval). "utolagos repressziv intezkedesek
szempontjabol" elektronikus es nyomtatott sajtonk
pedig Tanzaniaval azonos minositesu.

Kozvetlenul megeloznek minket olyan kozismert kultur-
nemzetek (31 hibapont), mint a 65-70 helyezest elero
Szenegal,Tajfold, Suriname, Venezuela es a kozismert
Benin. Ejnye, mintha lemaradtunk volna kicsinyeg.
Szenegalnal ugy altalaban egy harantujjal feljebb
szoktunk volt szerepelni. A magyar sajto regebben verte
Benin-t is, ami persze nem is olyan nagy dolog ha szamba
vesszuk, hogy Benin akkor meg nem volt felfedezve.

Sebaj, 34 pontunkkal messze megeloztunk egy egesz
kategoriat ("Nem Szabad" sajtojukkal; ahol pl.
Burundi, Zaire vagy eppen Irak sajtoszabadsaga
vesztegel)! Sot, egy paraszthajszallal (egyetlen
ponttal) sikerult magunk moge utasitani olyan sajto-
orias nemzeteket mint Tonga, Antiqua es Comoros.
Nem kell tehat tulsagosan szegyenkeznunk hogy Benin
sarkaban kullogunk, hiszen tarkonkra liheg Comoros!

Mas hires orszagokat pedig nem is egyetlen, de ket
egesz hibaponttal gyoztunk le sajtoszabadsagbol!
Hiszen a 79-82-ik helyen nyomul mogottunk Mozambique,
Malawi, Macedonia es Burkina Faso. Ugandanal pedig
negy egesz hibaponttal jobbak vagyunk! Nekunk 34
van, nekik 38 (a lehetseges 100-bol), nyee-nye-nye-
nyee-nyee. (Ez a gunykacaj nem ugandaiul, burkina
fasoul, beninul, comorosul vagy eppen senegali
nyelven olvasodik, hanem egy olyan hajdani europai
kulturallam ovodasra sullyedt szinvonalat fojtja
vigadva-sirasba, mely nemzet, nem is olyan regen,
Pullitzert adta a Vilagnak).

Ez az ut vezet Europabol. Igen. A "Reszlegesen Szabad"
sajto elso csoportjaban (31-45 hibapont) ugyanis 28
orszag szerepel, de ebbol csak harom es fel van Europaban,
annak is peremen; Magyarorszag, Macedonia, Szlovakia.
Meg Ukrajna, ha joindulatbol oda szamitjuk. Afrikai,
kozepamerikai es delkeletazsiai bennszulottek
felmeztelen igazsaga (Reszben Szabad Sajtoja) adja uj
kornyezetunk derekhadat.

Szokjunk hozza. Mert a Vilag nem fog "megallj!"-t
kialtani, hogy "Vesz! Borzalom! Szegyen es Gyalazat:
CENZURAZZAK SZENEGAL, BENIN, TONGA, BURKINA FASO ES
AZ EHSEG KOZEPEUROPAI TARTOMANYA (FORMERLY HUNGARY)
SAJTOJAT!"

Tudor Dima > wrote:
>The well-known "%FNAME%" > wrote :
>
>>But then again, why be surprpiaed when the most insulting, ridiculous,
>>fascist paper "Romania Mare" has far more readers than any other publication 
in >Romania
>
>FYI : The circulation of the rag you're talking about
>dropped from 300,000 in 1991-1992 to less than 30,000 in 1995.
>The leading paper at that time had 700,000 readers.

The fact that it had 300.000 at one [point means that approximately 500,000 or 
even maybe 600,000 
were reading it if you consider that more people than the person actually buyin
g the paper were 
reading it.  Nevertheless, this in no way diminishes the fact that Vadim's idea
s had a rather 
wide-spread support among the population at large.   

>If the romanian analysts are right, the thing is not economically
>viable anymore, being subsidized with black Securitate funds.

Why is it that whenever something unpleasant is mentioned about Romania, its ci
tizens tend to 
put the blame on something or someone else.  Even if the Securitate was subsidi
zing it, they coud 
not force the popyulation to read it.  Unless you can demonstrate that the "poo
r" and "helpless" 
Romanians fell once again under the "spell" of the invisible tyrant, the former
 Securitate.

>In any case, I don't thing you could imagine that a 30,000 weekly
>might be the most read paper in a 23 mil country...

It doesn't change the facts.  Minorities are treated with hatred, and extreme e
thnocentrism in 
Romania, fascism and neo-fascistic views are on the rise, and I don't see the s
o-called Romanian 
Intelligentsia doing anything about it.  A country that officially rehabilitate
s a convicted and 
executed war criminal like Antonescu deserves nothing more than contempt from t
he rest of the 
world.
>

>td
>

IW

In article >, 
s.com (T.M.Lutas) says:
>
>In article >, "%FNAME%"
> wrote:
>
>> To think that language is the issue here, is at least naive.  
>> The Jewish minorities in Romania, for example have no territorial 
>> claims, or demands on schooling in any particular language yet 
>> they have and still are the object of hate actions.  This applies 
>> to other minorities as well.
>
>To say that there is *one* issue here is truly naive. Yes, there are
>other things going on inside Romanian besides a language dispute. Yet
>I don't think that this fact in any way disproves the idea that language
>disputes aren't a major cause of current hungarian-romanian tension. 

It might interest people concerned with the question of whether language
should be such a problem in Romania to know the following:

Today I saw the leaflet *National Schools Tests and Teacher Assessment
in 1996* sent out nation-wide in the UK. It is information for parents 
of children aged 7, 11 & 14 in British state schools and unequivocally
states on the last page: 

*This leaflet is also available in the following languages: BENGALI,
CHINESE, GREEK, GUJARATI, HINDI, PUNJABI, TURKISH, URDU and VIETNAMESE.
(Braille and audio cassette versions are also available for the visually 
impaired.)* (end of quote)

The above named languages represent the largest non-English speaking
ethnic minorities in the UK. Other non-English speaking ethnics not 
mentioned can also have translations made accordingly. The people
responsible for distribution of foreign language versions of the leaflet
determine where and who should get them, making sure the information is
properly disseminated.

As an aside, one can go to any public library in Britain and find foreign
language sections, order books from abroad in foreign languages, etc. 

It's also ILLEGAL to discriminate in any way against ethnics (the fact 
that discrimination happened and still happens made this law necessary,
but at least it's there and victims of discrimination on ethnic/cultural/
religious/disability and other grounds now have legal redress.)

I offer the above information to those who wish to argue about LANGUAGE 
and ETHNICITY in any country or nation-state, just so they can get some 
perspective on THEIR OWN moral stance and REFLECT ON THEIR OWN PREJUDICES
(if they have the courage.) 

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Chess books? Ask for my list! ** Acorn..RISC OS * ICPUG..Commodore=64!

"%FNAME%" > wrote:

>The fact that it had 300.000 at one [point means that approximately 500,000 or
 even maybe 600,000
>were reading it if you consider that more people than the person actually buyi
ng the paper were
>reading it.  Nevertheless, this in no way diminishes the fact that Vadim's ide
as had a rather
>wide-spread support among the population at large.

I'm not going to argue here whether 300,000 meant 600,000 or 263,583
since obviously there's not enough data.

I would be courious to find find out what exactly "Vadim's ideas" mean.
I have read some issues of his paper and, honestly, I still don't know.
What I could tell you is that the rag was "in charge" with hungarians
and jews only part of the time, its main "mission" being to throw dirt
at the opposition forces and personalities.
In the way it did it, it was closer to a grotesque circus than to a
military parade, if this is what you're afraid of.

>>If the romanian analysts are right, the thing is not economically
>>viable anymore, being subsidized with black Securitate funds.
>
>Why is it that whenever something unpleasant is mentioned about Romania, its c
itizens tend to
>put the blame on something or someone else.  Even if the Securitate was subsid
izing it, they coud
>not force the popyulation to read it.  Unless you can demonstrate that the "po
or" and "helpless"
>Romanians fell once again under the "spell" of the invisible tyrant, the forme
r Securitate.

It's true. ALL his party fellows were high rank officers in Securitate
and  the guy has access to the old Securitate files, something that few
others have.
The fact that they're only printing 30,000 copies tells me that they're
running out of money.

I'm not advocating the cause of the "uninformed and manipulated" romanians,
I'm accusing them of stupidity.
I just said that after the novelty of cursing on paper faded away,
the circulation dropped ten times.

And I'm not blaming it on something else, as Securitate was(is) a romanian
creature. As for the human stupidity involved, I don't think anybody
claimed it's an extinct virus in Romania - as well as anywhere else.

Whether you are interested in finding a reason behind the existence
of all this "nationalistic" propaganda, or you just wanna play smart,
I don't know yet.

>>In any case, I don't thing you could imagine that a 30,000 weekly
>>might be the most read paper in a 23 mil country...
>
>It doesn't change the facts.  Minorities are treated with hatred, and extreme 
ethnocentrism in
>Romania, fascism and neo-fascistic views are on the rise, and I don't see the 
so-called Romanian
>Intelligentsia doing anything about it.  A country that officially rehabilitat
es a convicted and
>executed war criminal like Antonescu deserves nothing more than contempt from 
the rest of the
>world.

You're obsessed with facts.
I present a figure that dropped in the last years - and is, presumably, a measu
re
of the hatred, blah,blah - and you claim that the "phenomenon" is on the rise.

To get a better feeling talk with people that live there.
As for what the intelectual elite does check
"22", "Dilema", "Romania Literara", "Contrapunct" , "Catavencu"...

td

P.S. Cool down, Antonescu doesn't have anything to do with this...

Misha Charaev wrote:
> 
>         Dear Antonio!
> 
> I suspect you are living not in Northern Corea, but somewhere in the West.
> So why don`t you move there? You can try a taste of proletarian solidarity.
> As for me - I had enouph of that kind of fun in my life.
> 
>                 ROT FRONT,
>                                 Misha Charaev,
> Moscow

Are you a businessman?

Please answer.

-- 
                                                         \   |   /    
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 /\    My Infamous Magic Wand                         \\\_        ---  -=
 \/___________________________________________________///~        ---  -=
 							  /  |  \     
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						       /     |     \

T.M.Lutas wrote:
> 
> In article >, 
> (Antonio) wrote:
> 
> > "The landmass most people call 'romania' is actually a province of Hungary.
> > The people who live there speak a dialect of Italian.   However, Hungary ru
les
> > this territory.   If the Hungarians wanted it back they would take it.
> > The Hungarians would hardly even have to fight, because they are brilliant
> > strategists --some of the best chess players are Hungarian -- whereas the
> > people of the province of 'romania' are mostly poor, illiterate peasants.
> > They are emotional and quarrelsome, worse than the Italians."
> >
> >                                      --Vladimir Zhirinovsky
> >                                        Press release to Hungarian journalis
ts
> >                                        Moscow, 28 March 1996
> 
> When you have Zhirinovsky on your side, you have to start to worry...
> 
> DB
>Gentlemen!I would appreciate if someone could point to the exact source of thi
s 
statement by Mr. Zhririnovsky. I cannot find any reference to this 
"Antonio" who seemed to have originated it. It is such a wild statement 
that I wonder if it wasn't cooked up either by a Hungarian or Romanian 
sordid minded provocateur.
As some of you may know Mr. Zhirinovsky has no reason to prefer 
Hungarians over Romanians. He has every reason to dislike Hungarians as 
Hungarians have every reason to dislike him. Or any rational, peace 
loving person would have reason to despise this hate-mongering Russian 
nationalist.
As far as I know the avarage hard working, decent Hungarian wouldn't want 
a square foot of Romanian soil. And he is unlikely crave even 
North-Eastern Transsylvania which Hitler donated to Hungary before WW2. 
There might be some wild eyed nationalists, propagandists, revanchists, 
and other stupid, restless, and misguided people in Hungary (mostly among 
the politicos, trying to fish in muddled waters) but I doubt that any 
politician would be able rebel-rouse a dozen people even from my  
province (Szabolcs-Szatmar) to march over the border and try to take back 
any part of Transsylvania at the cost of some personal loss. And in my 
large extended family, part of which came over to present day Hungary 
from Satu Mare and other places over the border, you wouldn't find a 
single one that would ever want to go back there or would want anything 
from there. Of course, as is typical for human beings, they wouldn't 
refuse a present if it dropped into their laps without any sacrafice. 
I believe that most reasonable Hungarians (and most of them, fortunately, 
are that) are too pragmatic than to entertain wild, Romantic, and 
sentimental nationalistic notions. Yes, they would want the minority 
rights of their fellow ethnic groups to be assured and respected. But 
that's about it. Nothing more.
So what is is hullabaloo, this snarling at each other, about? Silly, 
stupid, ignorant, screwed-up, would-be Zhirinovskies' noisy storm in the 
tea pot. Do we have to take it seriously. It's really sad -as I am 
browsing over this Zhirinovsky "non-press-release release"- to see how 
many people seem to have swallowed this nonsense and worked up a lot of 
adrenalin. I think that the perpetrator of such provocation should be 
publicly ostracised.
Sincerely, Laszlo Horvath

Dear Antonio!

I suspect you are living not in Northern Corea, but somewhere in the West.
So why don`t you move there? You can try a taste of proletarian solidarity.
As for me - I had enouph of that kind of fun in my life.

		ROT FRONT,
				Misha Charaev,
Moscow

Antonio wrote:
> 
>
> THE HAMMER AND SICKLE WILL AGAIN REIGN OVER ALL THE REPUBLICS, STATUES OF
> LENIN WILL BE RE-ERECTED EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE GREAT DOMAIN OF THE NEW
> UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS AND THE NEW WARSAW PACT.


	The most repressive dictatorship the world has seen in all of human 
history is about to return? Get out the champagne.


	Fyodor

 wrote:
> 
> Antonio wrote:
> >
> >
> > THE HAMMER AND SICKLE WILL AGAIN REIGN OVER ALL THE REPUBLICS, STATUES OF
> > LENIN WILL BE RE-ERECTED EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE GREAT DOMAIN OF THE NEW
> > UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS AND THE NEW WARSAW PACT.
> 
>         The most repressive dictatorship the world has seen in all of human
> history is about to return? Get out the champagne.
> 
>         Fyodor

Who are you??  Are you Russian?  New Russian?  Businessman?

-- 
                                                         \   |   /    
  ____________________________________________________    \  |  /   
 /\    My Infamous Magic Wand                         \\\_        ---  -=
 \/___________________________________________________///~        ---  -=
 							  /  |  \     
							 /   |   \    
				
						       /     |     \

Engedjek meg, hogy ket vilaghiru magyarrol szolo hirrel
orvendeztessem meg a newsgroup olvasoit. 
        1. Fa Nandor ujabb vilag koruli vitorlazasanak zold utat adott
tegnap a Fovarosi Onkormanyzat kereskedelmi es turisztikai bizottsaga azzal,
hogy hozzajarult a tura tobb mint hetmillio forintos tamogatasahoz. Fa
Nandor Budapest nevu vitorlasat szombaton probalja ki az Adriai-tengeren. 
        2. Solti Gyorgyot, a neves karmestert tegnap az Olasz Koztarsasag
Nagykeresztjenek erdemrendjevel tuntette ki az olasz allamfo. Luigi Scalfaro
elnok a Quirinale palotaban fogadta az ismert magyar szarmazasu muveszt, s a
talalkozo kereteben adta at neki a magas kituntetest.