Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Southern Slovakia in 1938-1945 (mind)  388 sor     (cikkei)
2 Hungarian Origins (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Hungarian Origins (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Hungarian Origins (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Hungarian Origins (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: ***HUNGARY***** (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
7 MORE ON ORIGINS (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
8 Computer (IBM or MAC) Popularity in Hungarian Academy (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
9 Horn and Bekesi (mind)  88 sor     (cikkei)
10 Demographical Catastrophy and Chernobyl (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
11 music (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Looking for a friend (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Southern Slovakia in 1938-1945 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I appologize I write this to Hungarian e-mail list but someone
of you wrote about Southern Slovakia (Someone talks 'UPPER LAND')
in time of WWII and I read very interesting book about it.
Lorant Tilkovszky - Magyar historician from Budapest wrote:
Juzne Slovensko v rokoch 1938-45 / Southern Slovakia in 1938-1945,
Vydavatelstvo SAV, Bratislava, SAV 1972.
I tried to translate 4th chapter of that to English and my friend
corrected my gramatical mistakes.  And this is the beginning of it.

Jozef Simek

> ---------------------------------------------------

Chapter 4 is titled
" Hungarization efforts in educational policies and works of enlighment"

"The situation of the Hungarian minority school system in CS (1918-38)
could not be used neither by the Hungarian government nor by the United
Hungarian party in their propaganda aims of undermining Czechoslovakia."

"The Hungarian goverment ordered its agent number "215", who knew the
educational situation of the minorities in CS very well, to make a detailed
report [1] with detailed statistics and a detailed characterization of
the Hungarian (language) school system in Slovakia by districts.
The department for nationalities and minorities of the Office of the
Hungarian Prime Minister accepted this report with immense disappointment,
because it didn't contain any such thing, which would have satisfied
the aggressive Hungarian propaganda interests and they quickly postponed it
"ad acta"."

"The report stated, that in Slovakia, of the 758 towns and villages with
a Magyar minority presence, in 660 of them there exists an elementary school
taught in Hungarian, of these in 150 cases there even existed 2 to 3 schools
in the same town. Though in 98 villages there weren't any Hungarian schools,
however of these 25 villages are so small that there is no school at all and
the children attend the neighboring village, in 33 cases there is a common
Hungarian school for neighboring villages, in 17 cases there are so few
Hungarians, that there could not have been a request for a Hungarian school;
in 3 cases new Hungarian schools were being organized. Agent number "215"
counted 19 villages, where even in his opinion there was no reason to request
a Hungarian school and about 30-35 towns, where few Magyars exist, but there
also exist Magyar national school in 9 of these cases."

"The situation in high schools is similar. According to the author, along
with the existing 8 gymnazia, a further 3 gymnazia could have been asked for,
and along with the existing 25 Hungarian upper-level (grammar) schools another
8 (could be asked for), along with the existing 2 agro-technical schools
another (could be asked for), along with the 5 commercial schools another
could be asked for. Besides these there existed one technical high school
and some apprentice (trade) schools (which weren't reported in the number)
along with 3 teacher institutes. At the technical high schools and middle
schools there were 2 dormitories only for Magyars and in 4 others the Magyar
students were living along with Slovaks. In the agent's opinion there could
have been 1 further dormitory."

"The complaints of Magyars living in CS weren't so much directed at the
number of Magyar schools as they were mostly against the competiting schools
of the Slovak league. This organization was economically and morally sponsored
well by the state in founding Slovak schools in Magyar villages, where only
a few Slovaks lived - like state officers, coloniers, frontier and financial
officers, etc. Modern schools of the Slovak league with big class-rooms,
lots of school supplies, free allottments of books and boarding often with
free meals and contributions towards school clothes were contrasted with
with the old, barn-like, neglected Magyar schools full of pupils.
For these reasons (claims the report) Magyar parents were often influenced
to register their children to schools with Slovak lang., mainly they wanted
them to studya and eventually to work  as civil servants or other admin
where they needed to know the state language. But at times they sent their
children to Slovak schools due to political reasons.  [2]
The decreasing numbers of students in hungarian schools could not be
attributed only in CS national policy, which "bought souls".
The nationalistic Hungarian parties are just as responsible for the
situation in the Hungarian minorities schools in the CS, whose activities
"in representing the Hungarian school interests" were exhausted in
provoking antislovak sentiment, which channeled into obstinate, insulting
later destructive policies, but eventhen it could achieve even qualified
and righteous demands of CS Hungarians.[3] "

"What was the situation in minorities' education in Hungary in that time?
Secondary schools did not exist at all and the number of elementary schools
lagged for instance in comparison with the situation in CS. If we also
to take into account that in the minority schools the prevalent teaching
language was Hungarian, is clear that Hungary, in its school politics,
did not provide for its minorities even remotely the same advantages
for its minorities as those afforded the Magyars in the "successor state".
In Hungary this situation was being explained that Hungary was a nation-
state principle, that it does not have minorities in significant numbers
and wherein they exist, that they are encircled by Magyars for ages, mixed
and so Hungarized that it would not be good to turn back this development[5].

A different situation arose, when the Vienna Arbitrage adjudged southern
Slovakia with a numerous self-confident Slovak population to Hungary.
The Hungarian government attempted to decrease to the minimum the entitlement
to education for Slovaks, who were for 20 years educated in national self-
consciousness in CSR, in this the (Hungarian policy) was not hesitant to
utilize force. 150 schools of the Slvoak League were either closed or
turned into Hungarian schools and 900 Slovak teachers from these schools
were deported with claim that these schools were installed for CS servant's
children and they were not need after their leaving [6].

Already in the first days after annexation there was an attack upon the
national rights of the Slovaks - long-time holders of homesteaders; amongst
others aspects, and not in the least place, the right to having their schools.
During the period of military administration in the in extraordinary population
census of DEC 1938, which was administered under armed military assistence
and thus under psychological pressure, the number of Slovak inhabitants
in many villages was thus decreased to such a degree, providing a reason
to justify the closure of the Slovak schools and to establish Hu. schools.[7]
The Slovak teachers were in places terrorized and beaten by the gendarmes
for fears of alerting the Slovaks of their right to having their schools. [8]

 The Civil administration, which succeeded the military administration
on 21st DEC 1938, attempted to solve the educational problem in principle.
Pal Teleki, in that time minister of culture and education, had an important
role in it. Later on he handed over ministry to Balint Homan and became
Prime minister on 16th FEB 1939, kept on directing these questions.

At the time of the annexation of southern Slovakia to Hungary the minority
schools in Hungary were of the "uniform type" with mixed teaching lang. by
decree from 23rd DEC 1935. This system started to be established in the school
year 1936/37 and in 1937/38 there were already 72 schools taught as such.
These were foremost German minority schools. The Goverment tried to sabotage
its own decree, which was created under German pressure, in relation to the
other minorities. This type of school did not enable Hungarization in such
a degree as it was during the time of validity Klebelsberg's decree from 1923,
according to which there existed 3 types of minority schools :
Type B - predecessor of current uniform type - some lessons were taught in
the Hungarian language and some in the minority language.;
Type A - was established less frequently - the Hungarian language was
only a compulsory class and the rest was taught in the minority lang.;
the widest was Type C - teaching language was Hungarian and the minority
language was only a class [9]; when a minority school had to be established
this was the most gladly type [10].

   A new "uniform-mixed" type of minorities schools (old Type B) was not
acceptable neither for minority demands nor for Hungarization efforts of
Hungarian goverment. Teleki therefore did not cling on to this type,
and when the Slovak educational question was being solved in the annexed
territory, he proposed to strive for the older types. A part of the Slovak
schools, mainly in Sk villages wedged into the territory inhabited by the
Magyar population, were changed to schools of Type C - almost fully Magyar-
because they named teachers for them who did not know the Slovak language
at all. The fact that in S~urany and elsewhere in schools, which were
changed into Hungarian language schools, the absolute majority of children
was Slovak and they did not understood the teacher at all, was not taken
into account. [11]

 Another part of the schools was proclaimed as "Hungarian-Slovak". These
schools would have been associated as decreased uniform type (former B),
if they had named a sufficient number of teachers who knew the Slovak lang.
But that did not happen and in reality the teaching language was Hungarian
and the Slovak language was merely used as an aid to reach comprehension
with children [12]. Certainly, such measures could not be realized in all
of the schools from fear of reciprocal measures in Hu. schools in Slovakia.
They therefore resorted to such measures, that in the thereto independent
Slovak schools they established Hungarian paralells, wherein in the Slovak
part the older Type A, that is instruction in the Slovak with compulsory
Hungarian. This certainly did not mean a resignation of Hungarization.
On the contrary, this reorganization arose out of the idea, that in such
diversified schools during the course of several years the students can
be inconspicuosly reoriented into the Hungarian parallels and that the
Slovak classes will perspectively cease to exist. [13]

 They commanded that the Hungarian children may only attend the Hungarian
schools or Hungarian parallel schools, on the other hand if parents request
it, the Slovak children may attend Hungarian school or Hu par. school. [14]
For the instances, when there could not be established a Hungarian parallel
school, Teleki issued a confidentail decree: "Let us try to find a more
elastic form of solution, let us increase the number of Hungarian teachers
in these schools, let us institute more teaching hours of Hungarian lang.
without the formal reoranization" [15].

Teleki would have often preferred if the municipal administration had not
so often tried to establish the Hungarian parallel schools so eagerly,
because it often done in an undesirable, or even in a dangerous manner.
Namely they started with the parsings of names. Slovak children who had
Magyar names were considered without furhter adieu as Magyars, even when
they could not speak Hungarian at all and were transfered to Hungarian
parallel schools. Teleki prohibited this method of parsing of names,
indicating that this method could then also be used in the successor states;
 not talking about such undesirable and dangerous it could be from the view-
point of dissimilation efforts of Magyars with German name. [16]

The forceful establishment of Hungarian parallel school happended in different
way also. One of these ugly ways is showed in the result of the investigation
which was begun on basis of a decree, in which is expressed a concern for
the fate of Hungarian children from orphanages, which were alotted to Slovak
adopting parents. It became evident, that concerns about their "Slovakization"
was only a pretence to achieve a predetermined limit in Sk villages
for the installablishment of Hungarian parallel schools. "The dislocation
of Hungarian children to places with Slovak majority allows in many villages
the establishemnt of Hungarian parallel schools teaching in (HU) lang.,
that is surely an excellent Hungarization factor" announced the county
ispan of Abov-Turnan county to the premier [17].

However speculation was not the major role in the Hungarization of the schools
but pressure full in the open. In the N(y)itra-Bratislava county by decree
of the county-lord Vilmos Jaross, Janos Bolyky jr. from Nove Zamky, on basis
of the notification of his disposition recieved from the municipal offices,
organized pressure on Slovaks - public servants to register their children
to Hungarian school or Hungarian parallel school near Slovak school.
The railroad workers were the first who were put to the test, whether they
wanted to give their children to the Hungarian schools, or respectively to
the Hungarian parallel schools . E.g. in Ulany nad Zitavou, where by DEC 1938
census there were 98.9% Slovaks, they were called to a meeting and in warning
presence of the commandant and railway-master and were given to sign petition
about Hungarian parallel school [18].

Such was the reality of the "realistic understanding" of Slovak parents
the result of which was the "petition for the establishment of Hungarian
parallel schools or the respective reclassification of their children to
to the Hungarian parallel school in spite of their children not being able
to speak a single word of Hungarian. [19] Of the 67 pupils of the elementary
school in Nizna Hutka only 3 or 4 were Hungarian, but still the administration
arranged to change the alnguage of instruction to the Hungarian language in
already in DEC 1940 [20].

In Cernik Hungarian parallel school had 27 pupils, of these only 5 had
Hungarian as their mother tongue. In Kamjatice there were 52 pupils in
Hungarian parallel schools which was run by an order of nuns, and only 4
of them were Magyars. It is self-evident that local parents did not
voluntarily, of their own will, register their children with the Hungarian
parallel schools, as it happended "not without influence" that 26 parents
in Nizna Mysla and 29 Sk parents in Kostany requested the establishment of
the Hungarian parallel school [22].

There was a typical case of the village Sv. Michal upon the Zitava,
where main administrator established a Hungarian parallel school with
urgency in APR 1941, referring to the 30 children. When later the request
was published in JUNE, only 11 parents signed it and when it was established
only 6 children enrolled themselves in the school. Then the gerdarmerie
intervened and started to investigate the people for national provocations.
After this intervention the Hungarian parallel school could start with
12 pupils [23].

The department of nationalities and minorities of the office of Prime minister
took the standpoint against these attempts "... whose direction was such
that they by threats either forced or restricted the freedom of minorities
(protected by law) in their decision, to what schools they will enroll
their children [24], though this standpoint has not any sence in reality
but it was also adapted by conditions, e.g. "in educational questions of
Slovak colonists". According to the view of the legal department the requests
of the Slovak colonists' for schools should be judged in different point
of view [25].

The request of the Roman-Catholic school in Demendice for permission to teach
in the Slovak language was refused and justified with
"The demands of the settled inhabitants with foreign language with anti-
Hungarian aims cannot be given the same dignified treatment, to which are
entitled the old-settlers, in a time of the foreign settlement of territory
of the Hungarian ethnic population, during the time of the foreign state's
existance with an anti-Hungarian goal" and besides
"the Hungarian royal minister of agriculture wants to expedite deportation
of the Upper-land colonists" [26].

By such a basic standpoint the lowest offices of administration got a free
hand to exert pressure and thus e.g. in village Radzovce and in associated
settlements Slovak "colonists" asked for Hungarian schools instead of the
existing Slovak school because the school inspector from Balassagyarmat
threatened them, that he would force them to depart from country [27].
When it was clear that deporting of Sk colonists could not be realized
the principle "that Slovaks, who were resettled on Hungarian territory
after 1918 could not claim education in the mother tongue and consequently
the Hungarian language needs to be established in their shools"; and when
this principle was not changed still the standpoint was taken up
"that realization of this step can be deferred for the time being" [28].

In many places this pressure caused very resolute opposition of self-
conscious Slovaks. In Surany the Slovaks excluded from their society all
of those that had registred their children with Hungarian schools and
in this way they forced them to registre children to Sk schools [29].

M. Baromlak's inhabitants in spite of they were put under gendarme's control,
achieved a Slovak school in 1941. Hungarian schools tried to get or to keep
Slovak pupils without success by using Slovak league methods(milk action)[30]
because Slovaks reregistred them en mass to the allowed Slovak school,
that it was quickly full and inadequate for the number of students.
There helped neither such tricks as e.g. they did not want to re-registre
child to Sk school on mother request when father was soldier and was not
present, nor canonical preachings "Why are you such strong Slovaks indeed
Slovaks have not any Saints besides Cyril and Method and Magyars have
an entire row of them" [31].
In Semerove, where the 90% Slovak majority could not be decreased even
with a "census" in DEC 1938 below 38% [32], the request for the establishment
of Sk parallel school was refused in 1941 [33], but in the next year
they managed to have it established [34].

The decision of the Ministerial council, the birth registers, which were
until now registered in the Slovak language, could thereafter only be
conducted in the Hungarian language, followed the goal that children
be recorded as Hungarians en masse and enrolled in Hungarian schools. [35]

   [1] Orsza'gos Leve'lta'r, Budapest (OL), Miniszterelno"kse'gi iratok
       (ME), Nemzetise'gi o., box. 47, G 1785/1938. "The Hungarian minority
       educational situation on *UPPER LAND* : cares of situation of Hu.
       schools in Slovakia and in Ruthenia too.
   [2] OL, Ku"lu"gyminiszte'rium (Kum), Pol., c.105/1938, Bratislava 6.1.
       1938. Bratislava Hungarian consulate's report.
       Szvatko' Pa'l - A visszate'rt magyarok, Budapest 1938, 186-7, 191.
       Fleischmann Gyula - Czehszlovakia mu"velo"de'spolitika'ja e's
                           kisebbse'g. Magyar Pedago'gia, 1939, 109-113.
   [3] Go"mo"ry Ja'nos - Emle'keim egy letu"nt vila'grol.
   [5] Ottli'k La'szlo' - Magyar nemzetise'gi politika, Budapest 1938,8;
       Fleischmann - ibid
   [6] OL, ME, Ta'je'koztata'si o., box. 3, B 35/a. Hungarian Bratislava's
       consulate report about talk with Tiso, 12.1. 1939.
   [7] Result gendarme's and notary's terror was that in some Sk villages
       92-96% of inhabitants reported (?) to Hu. nationality. Change schools
       to Hu. schools was based on this census. J. Bazovsky's - the reporter
       for Sk minority on the Office of Prime minister - studying travel (?)
       report about Vrable district, Budapest 7.7. 1939 (OL, ME, Nemzetsegi
       o., bal. 54, E 18987/1939.) To hid pressure and intimidating mass (?)
       Sk rewriting (?) to Hu. nationality in census was justified that
       they have "Hu. feeling", "Hu. patriots". In count I. Revay's
       explanation it was also caused by that "majority of Slovaks reacted
       positively to returning and thanked in this way". (A belvederi
       magyar-szlova'k hata'r. Budapest 1941, 63-64.) Later alleviation
       of terror showed right reality - opposition against Hungarization.
       "There were cases on back-returned territory, that some Sk villages'
       inhabitants almost unanimously joint to Hu. nationality with frank
       pleasure. But when school administration on base of it installed
       Hu. teaching lang., at once temper (?) changed to hostile.
       Ottlik Laszlo - A magyar nemzetisegi politika feladatai, Magyar
       Szemle, 1940,8,63.
   [8] OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o., box. 95, I 17574/1941.
       F. Bihari, Sk Catholic church organist from Velke Lovce/Lot
       writes: "I was here in time of returning of Southern Slovakia...
       I heard his Excellency regent's words. I believed him... But
       I stated with sorrow I am not in my homeland but in abroad...
       gendarmes anon chased me as brigand, murder...
       (OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o., box. I 17574/1941).
       Bihary Ferenc - Curriculum vitae, Ujlot 9.9. 1940.
       In Palarikovo (Slov. Meder) gendarmes beat teacher Luka'c~a Z~a'k.
       (OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o., box. 54, E 16974/1939).
   [9] They rather did not install such type of school in village Dag
       in Komarno-Ostrihom's zhupa/county where besides German population
       also Slovaks lived, because Slovaks also would start to ask for it.
       (OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o., box 47, G 15599/1938.)
  [10] Ke'pviselo"ha'zi Naplo' (KN), 1935/XXI, 450-452, 25.1. 1939,
       Pal Teleki's speech (as min. of culture and education) in parliament.
  [11] OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o., bal. 88, B 16439/1941.
       Janos Angyal's (school inspector of Nitra-Bratislava's zhupa) report,
       N. Zamky, 17.11. 1940. There were 65% of all pupils Slovaks in
       Surany- Lajos~ov dvor , 86 % in Ja'sovej, 90% in Semerov.
  [12] Ibid. Hu-Sk schools, where Sk pupils were majority:
       Hody 69%, Palarikovo 73%, Trnovec n. Vahom- Ja'tov 90%, Kra'l~ova'
       pri Senci 91%, Trnovec- Kl~uc~iarn~a 94%, Velke Lovce 98%, Ba'nov
       (Ba'novska' Kesa) 98%, U'l~any n. Z~itavou (Fedy'mes~ n./Z.) 100%.
  [13] OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o, box. 60, L 18436/1939.
  [14] KN, 1939/II, 326. Ba'lint Homa'n's (min. of culture and education)
       speech 22.11. 1939.
  [15] OL, ME, Nemzetisegi o., box. 55, G 20162/1939 - Teleki's attitude,
       about which he informed chief of department Ottlik at 14.11. 1939.
  [16] Tamtiez, box. 66, P 20213/1939.
  [17] Tamtiez, box. 119, D 15119/1942
  [18] OL, Kum, Be'keelo"ke'szi'to" o., XXIII-38. Gyo"zo" Voza'r's report
       about visiting villages at 13.-24.5. 1941.
  [19] OL, ME, Nemzetsegi o., box. 144, P 18454/1942. Arthur Benisch's
       report for PM at 26.3. 1942.
  [20] State archives, Kosice, Kosice royal school inspectorate,
       univerzal documents, box. 14, c. 2201/1940-41.
  [21] OL, ME, Nemzetsegi o., box. 152, E 24830/1943 "Dr. Gyula Fleischman
       inspector's travel in Surany and around", Budapest, 8.5. 1943.
  [22] Ibid, box. 144. P 22729 a 22730/1942.
  [23] Ibid, box. 143, P 16190/1942.
  [24] Ibid, box. 66, P 20347/1939.
  [25] Ibid, box. B 25265/1941. It refers about installation of Sk teaching
       lang. in state nationali school in Hurbanovo-Zeleny Haj. Similarly
       refused request from Kalinciakovo (Varsany). OL, ME, Nemzetsegi o.,
       box. 143, P 171136/1942.
  [26] Ibid, box. 117, B 15504/1942. Massive of The Ministry of culture
       and education, Budapest 12.7. 1942.
  [27] Ibid, box. 73, G 16520/1940.
  [28] Ibid, box. 182, P 25100/1943 "Szlova'k rela'cio'" (Slovak program)
  [29] KN, 1939/VIII, 1073, 29.11. 1940 - Be'la Pinte'r's speech.
  [30] Such initiative late on was systematized and institutionazed (?)
       League for defence of children, which sponsored in schools on joint
       territory mainly Hu. children and Sk. children, who attended Hu.
       par. schools (St. archives, Nitra, Major zhupa documents
       of Tekov-Hont zhupa, 802/1943).
  [31] OL, Kum, Bekeelokeszito o., XXIII-38. G. Vozar's report.
  [32] OL, ME, Nemzetsegi o., box. 54, E 16974/1939, Jan Bazovsky's report
       about studying travel in Nove Zamky district at 21.-24.4. 1939.
  [33] OL, Kum, Bekeelokeszito o., XXIII, 38, G. Vozar's report about
       travel in N. Zamky district at 4.-6.6. 1941.
  [34] OL, ME, Nemzetsegi o., box. 144, P 23002/1942.
  [35] OL, Min. Council's records, 23.8. 1939.
+ - Hungarian Origins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Where do we REALLY originate from? I am soory if this has already been
talked about over the past few months, but I have been led to believe that we
white monguls deep down. Even a Chinese friend of mine says that there seem to
been some sort of similarity between europeans (in general) and the minguls.
 And so further to this, I have heard , I cannot for the life of me remember
where from (actually I thing it was a travellers' pocket book on hungary) that
we have nothing to do with Attila the Hun - it was just coincidence and that
 theHungarians used it to their advantage to put fear into their enemies.

+ - Re: Hungarian Origins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Actually, there was an article in the Guardian yesterday
(lifted from the Washington Post if I remember correctly)
and there is (new?) research resulted in Xia..(I forgotten
the name of the province in China, deep south-Eastish, near
Caucasian chain of mountains I suspect) allegedly there are
7000 people left from the tribe of "ugars", who have the pentatone
folk tradition, tunes as from Bartok's collection.
Also this province was the target of Korosi Csoma
as stated in the same article.  The suggestion is that the
Hungarians only met the finns on their way to Europe.
Also the tone of the article suggests that such research was
forbidden "before", as the regime liked the idea of a South-Ural

>         Where do we REALLY originate from? I am soory if this has already bee
> talked about over the past few months, but I have been led to believe that we
> white monguls deep down. Even a Chinese friend of mine says that there seem t
> been some sort of similarity between europeans (in general) and the minguls.
>  And so further to this, I have heard , I cannot for the life of me remember
> where from (actually I thing it was a travellers' pocket book on hungary) tha
> we have nothing to do with Attila the Hun - it was just coincidence and that
>  theHungarians used it to their advantage to put fear into their enemies.
> Karcsi
+ - Re: Hungarian Origins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>        Where do we REALLY originate from? I am soory if this has already been
>we have nothing to do with Attila the Hun - it was just coincidence and that
> theHungarians used it to their advantage to put fear into their enemies.

What I've read is that the Hun and the Magyars and others migrated to Europe
Asia about the same time (within 200-300 years).  The relations between the
and the Mongols my be due to the possible Magyars origins in the the Chinese
of Zhan Jing (NW China, I think).  The people fromZhan Jing have a folk tale
 about a
tribe from there migrating west about the same time that the Magyars are konwn
have entered europe (895 AD).  Also, they look similar to Europeans, for which 
not yet heard an explanation (why would the people from Zhan Jing have facial
not sinilar to other Chinese?).

+ - Re: Hungarian Origins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant wrote:

>Actually, there was an article in the Guardian yesterday
>and there is (new?) research resulted in Xia..(I forgotten
>the name of the province in China, deep south-Eastish, near
>Caucasian chain of mountains I suspect) allegedly there are
>7000 people left from the tribe of "ugars", who have the pentatone
>folk tradition, tunes as from Bartok's collection.

These are the same people I refered to in my previous post in reply to
Karcsi.  I read about this theory on Hungarian origins in a book by
Sisa called "The Spirit of Hungary", so I'm surprised that there was an
article on this recently, as the theory is not new.

The book also mentioned that until the mid 80's this part of China was
off limits to foreigners, and was again made off-limits recently due to some
protest by the local people against human rights violations and repression.
The author made a joke about the 'trouble' that the Magyars and the people of
Zhang Jing have caused for their respective repressors (Magyars: '56, '89 -
Zhang Jing: recently???) is further proof of their common roots.  Maybe we are
troublemakers for tyrannts by our inherant nature.

+ - Re: ***HUNGARY***** (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In an article a few weeks ago, d.a. offered some oppinions on the
current opposition to Hispanic immigrant in California. Since these
issues are of major importance in the  US today, I think it is important
to reply to them.  I appologize for the posting on a non-Hungarian
topic, and will not carry-out an extended discussion here beyond
this post.

>it is one of the "ironies" that until last century, california was
>part of
>mexico and that many of the new immigrants have a much closer
>and ethnic connection to california than those who settle there from
>the eastern or mid-western or southern states. i presume you do not

If you acknowledge the claims to the western US by Hispanics, than
you must accept the legitimancy of the methods they used to aquire
that land from the real original inhabitants, the Indains.  Since
the Spanish took the land from the Indians by force, it is no less
legitimate for the US (which you called euro-usa, anglophone people
later in you posting) to have done the same (live by the sword, die
by the sword).  Just as the Spanish imposed their language and culture
on the region, it is no less proper for the US to do the same, and
the Hispanics thus are in no historic position to object based on
some wrong having been commited against them and their culture.
The only people who can claim a historic right are the Indians, and
they are the only people who should be obliged.

Opposition to immigrants of a 'foreign' culture and ethnic background is not
something only attempted by the US.  During the days of Spanish control,
they government at the time was opposed to the immigration to the
Mexican territory of california by the hoorible 'Anglos'.  The governor
of California wrote a letter to the Mexican gov't explaining the
dire situation he was in due to the uncontrollable immigration of
Anglos from the US to California.  He said border blockaids were of no
help, and that without major military intervention, there was no hope
of blocking the wave of immigrants.  He said the danger posed by
those immigrants was the loss of Spanish cultural influence over the
territory.  Given that the roles have been somewhat reversed (the US
is no longer composed of mostly Anglos, but rather Europeans of all
nationalities) they complaints by advocates of the Hispanic right to
control over the area are without moral authority.  The only people
with that authority are the Indians.

+ - MORE ON ORIGINS (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I too read the article in Monday's Washington Post and thought
           it was interesting but found the theory unsubstantiated.  Where
           is the pre-Uralic stratum in the Hungarian language, if the Mag
           yars did indeed pick it up on their way west?  That you can dig
            up similiar items on both edges of the great Eurasian plain me
           ans little; the Mongols proved that you could cross it on horse
           back in 30 days.  Linguistic evidence points to a Volga-Ural ho
           meland (this is not a "Soviet-imposed" theory but one based on
           solid linguistic evidence).  In the past, similiar theories (i.
           e. Sumerianism) have been put forward in an attempt to provide
           us with glorious ancestors.  I guess it is embarrassing for som
           e that the Ob-Ugrians are our closest linguistic relatives.
            Ken Nyirady
+ - Computer (IBM or MAC) Popularity in Hungarian Academy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Reader:

I am interested to find out what type of computers are used (or
intended to be used) in Hungarian Universities and Colleges, in
other words are IBMs or MACs the most popular.  I am mostly in-
terested in the usage of these computers in Arts & Science.

Thank you for your help,

Dr. Attila Szabo


Kedves Olvaso !

Erdekelne hogy milyen kompjutereket hasznalnak a Magyar egyeteme-
ken es foiskolakon, vagy milyen iranyba megy a fejlesztes, MacIn-
tosh vagy IBM.  Kulonosen erdekel a termeszet-tudomanyok terule-
ten belul hasznalt gepek (mint pld. nyelveszet, regeszet).

Koszonom szepen faradtsagat,

Dr. Szabo Attila
+ - Horn and Bekesi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First of all, thanks to Hugh for reporting from Prague. Lova1sz's final
sentence: "One can only hope, that it is a mistake [Horn's latest actions]
coming from a lack of ideas, and not an organized return of the totalitarian
structures" is the crux of the matter. And, as I can see it, the signals from
Budapest are mixed. For certain segments of the society, the return of the
ex-communists certainly meant more than a change of government. In HVG
(January 21) I found a picture (p. 63) which, I was certain, had to be taken
sometime in the 1950s. Great was my surprise when the caption said that it
was actually taken in August 1994. In the Ganz Shipyard there is sign on red
background: "Long Live the Leading Force of Society: The Working Class!" The
sign reminded me of those days when we, little kids in school, had "decorate
our classrooms from top to bottom with red signs: Long Live the Red Army,
Long Live Comrade Sztalin, Long Live Comrade Rakosi, and, yes, Long Live the
Working Class. On the other hand, Horn has been retreating here and there
about open interference in privatization by promising not to repeat his past
actions again. All in all, though, I am still pessimistic.

Let me draw a composite picture of Horn as he is emerging from the pages of
the Hungarian press. First and foremost, a fairly lengthy interview appeared
with him in *168 ora.* The editor-in-chief, Akos Mester, conducted the
interview, by and large fairly and professionally as any newspaperman in the
West would.

>From the interview it becomes clear that Horn is not a team player and he is
especially irritated by the whole mechanism of the coalition. He is also a
man who finds fault only with the other side. He seems to be impatient and
acts impulsively. He is thin-skinned and any kind of criticism in the press
irritates him to no end. Let me quote directly here:

Gy.H.: The quality of my life has deteriorated since I became prime minister.

A.M.: Why?

Gy.H.: Because of the incredible workload and incredible pressures. Don't
misunderstand me: I don't want to be pitied. . . .  I am simply trying to do
my duty. And I must say: I am not doing it with great pleasure.

A.M.: Why not?

Gy.H.: Because not even during the right-wing government did I get so much
criticism than in the last few months. I don't mind that they criticize my
activities as prime minister, but that there are some people who trample on
my human dignity. Not in my wildest imagination do I want to sue; I do know
that I must endure all this, but to tolerate these denigrating articles is
very difficult. . . .

It is not only democracy which baffles him but the market economy as well.
Here is Hungary where only 40 percent of companies is in private hands, where
the market forces still don't function freely but according to Gyula Horn the
Hungarian market place is a "jungle," a kind of Wild West of capitalism. Here
is a few lines from the interview:

A.M.: Don't you think that in a civil society when a prime minister
interferes in the everyday affairs of the state then he seems like the good
king whose court is evil. Put it more simply: why do you personally have to
set things right.

Gy.H.: I don't want to answer a question with a question but according to you
do we have a normal civil society in Hungary. In my opinion, no.

A.M.: Do I understand right? You interfere because . . .

Gy.H.: Because we have a jungle here. Absolute jungle. . . .

In HVG (February 4) there is an interview with Be1kesi--also very
interesting. According to the finance minister Horn "never for a moment accept
ed [his] economic policy which was part of the party program. . . . Somehow
secretly he always hoped that there is a better alternative which would be
less painful and would lead to faster growth." According to Be1kesi some of
the MSZP leaders are against foreign investment and they prefer domestic
privatization. However, the Hungarian middle class has no capital. These
people think that one could create a middle class by giving them the capital.
This is a political question. And it depends on this decision who will be
part of this new middle class. In brief, instead of foreign investors the
left-wing of the MSZP would prefer its very own by passing on to them state
property. Unfortunately, says Be1kesi, Horn is under the influence of these
people. Be1kesi is also critical of the government's decision to further
subsidize the Ozd Steel Works. The decision was La1szlo1 Pa1l's (minister of
industry and trade) and Gyula Horn's. Horn, in fact, praised the decision in
parliament last Monday. It turns out that the newly nationalized Ozd factory
costs about 20 billion forints. There are 4,000 workers. You can figure it
out how expensive it is per worker to keep the factory functinoning. And at
the same time, the Hungarian government is practically bankrupt.

I assume that you already heard that the portfolio of finance was offered to
Peter Medgyessy, who turned it down.

Eva Balogh
+ - Demographical Catastrophy and Chernobyl (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In answering Diana's "Demographical Catastrophy" article
(HUNGARY #217) Susanna ) suggested
(HUNGARY #218) to look into the effects of the Chernobyl
disaster, which, as she wrote, may account for some
types of illnesses that swept through Central and Eastern
Europe recently.

I think these two things are not related, at least not
directly, and definitely not in the case of Hungary. The fact
of the matter is that Hungary received less radioactive
fallout than many countries West of Hungary. In the first
couple of days after the accident the winds carried most of the
contamination to the North-West (Belarus and then Scandinavia),
and only later did it return to Central Europe from the West.
(The first alarm signal came from the monitoring system of a
nuclear power plant in Northern Sweden.) Later, around May 1
the course of the wind had changed, and there was a direct
influx of contamination to Hungary from the North-East, but
even with this the total amount of fallout was at a lower level
in Hungary than in Austria or in parts of Germany.

The reason for this is that most of the fallout came with
the rain, of which Hungary had relatively little after the
accident. There was substantially more rain West of Hungary,
especially in the mountains (in the Alps, for example).

All in all, in case the Chernobyl disaster can be related
to the health problems described in Diana's article, these
symptoms should be seen in many "Western" countries too.

Finally, this case reminds me of a story  back from April
1986. Someone in Budapest received a phone call then from a
friend in Vienna after the first news about the Chernobyl
disaster had arrived. This guy in Vienna said "Oh, I am
so sorry for you; I have just heard what had happened to
you OVER THERE..." Well, Vienna is less than 300 kilometers
West of Budapest, and it received more radioactivity than
most places in Hungary. Radioactivity just did not care about
the Iron Curtain...

Geza Levai

PS Although I am a physicist, my work is not related
   to radioactive studies, therefore my contribution here
   is that of an interested citizen and not that of a
+ - music (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear newsgroup,
     I am a college student in North Carolina and just interested in
talking to music students from around the world and what it is like in
your area. Any correspondance would be greatQ
+ - Re: Looking for a friend (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have only one idea, you can write to >KLTE.HU. This is the
address of a goipher team of Kossuth Lajos Tudoma'ny Egyetem.Write your
problem they can help you. I beleive.
All the best S.B.

On Wed, 8 Feb 1995, Eva Durant wrote:

> >
> > On Sun, 5 Feb 1995, Vanessa Whitaker wrote:
> > >         I have a friend who is attending the Medical University of Debrec
> > > He does not know how to use the e-mail system and standard mail often tak
> > > six weeks or more to arrive.
> >
> >         That's odd.  It takes little over a week for mail from my relatives
> > arrive.
> >
> >         Norb
> Mail can be fairly erratic, especially from/to the country areas. (3 weeks
> not unusual)
> Videocasettes have been lost (on the way there) several times.
> (there again, a friend received my christmas card on the 19th
> of January in this country, sent on the 18th of December, honestly)