(Josef Sumegi) wrote:

>Lehet magyar betüket használni ebben a newsgroup-ban? Hogy néznek ezek
>ki nálad?

>Én a következö beállitást használom:

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

>Köszönöm a válaszod!
Szeretnem megtudni, hogyan lehet az Internet-en belul magyar
ekezeteket hasznalni.
Elore is koszonom

Szegedy Sandor
>MVH: Josef S.

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------

>"Framgĺng är inte att synas och höras utan att fĺ nĺgonting gjort."

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------

In article >,
 (Poetician1) wrote:

> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> T.M.Lutas ) writes:
> >>For your scenario of ethnic romania crime rate equals 
> >>gypsy crime rate to be true you would have to assume not only a racist 
> >>police force but also a racist set of judges and a racist set of 
> >>prosecutors. 
> 
> Wally Keeler writes: 
> >Not unheard of. At anyrate the question was the accusation (slander?) that
> >Gypsies have a higher rate of crime, ergo...
> 
> T.M.Lutas ) writes:
> |And I'm still waiting to hear what you consider acceptable evidence. 
> |When you answer my question, I'll try to answer yours. 
> 
> Any reasonable, independent, authoritative evidence will do.

You already ruled out the official crime statistics. Most reasonable people 
think that they are authoritative. Since you don't why don't you let me 
know what alternative sources you would find OK. 

> Now answer the question: on what basis can you casually post that the Gypsy
> community has a higher rate of crime than any other particular ethnic
> community?

Mostly because every time I've tried to get better figures I get the 
"flat earth" look. If you don't know what that is, try to seriously carry 
the argument that the earth is flat. The look you will get is similar to 
the look I've gotten when I've asked about gypsy crime figures and their 
relative levels. Could it be mistaken? Yes, and that's enough for me to 
dig a bit further on the subject. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Peller Zoltan > wrote:
>No, ilyen gyenge kifogassal ne is gyere :-) Jo ideje elerheto a 
>multikey nevu szoftver, aminek letezik kereskedelmi es shareware
>verzioja is. A memoriabol kb 5kb-ot (!) foglal, a billentyuelrendezesek
>kiosztasok szeles skalajat ismeri. Es bonuszkent meg a nem standard
>formazasu lemezeket is kezeli. Szoval szuper progi. Van Win3.1x ala
>driver is hozza.

Eloszor is, en nem hasznalok Win 3.1-et.
Masodszor, en is lattam mar programokat, amik lehetove teszik a magyar
ekezetes betuk beuteset, de ezek mind ugy mukodtek, hogy egy billentyu
helyett legalabb kettot kellett beutni egy ekezetes betu
megjelenitesehez. Az a masik billentyu altalaban Ctrl vagy Alt volt, de
neha meg a Shift-et is hozza kellett adni.  Ilyesmit hasznalok az MS
Word-del irt magyar levelekben, de utalom, mert ketszer annyi idot vesz
igenybe, mint egy ugyanolyan hosszu angol level irasa, s eszem agaban
sincs ezen a torturan atmenni a sokkal lezserebb Internet forumokon.
Ha te szereted kinozni magad ilyesmivel, "be my guest".

PJ

In article >,
 (Poetician1) wrote:

> As I said: "Asking around -- what a scientific survey that is." 
> 
> If all you have is an occassional by-product, then I would suggest that you
> get ill-informed self better equipped about the issue before you take on
> those who are better informed.

If you haven't noticed, I'm not "taking you on" so much as presenting the 
facts as I understand it, noting some things that aren't clear, and looking 
for better information. 

You seem to be committed to making me mad at you and to stop thinking, 
stop looking for evidence, and just striking back at you. What a stupid 
thing to do. But I think I won't demean myself by turning off my brain 
and turning up the invective despite your provocations.

What things I do know about gypsies suggest that they do have a higher 
crime rate, esp. street crime than romanian ethnics. I'm not going to 
give up the idea simply because the mighty Wally Keeler says I'm wrong. 

I ask, not demand, not berate, simply ask for some well respected 
neutral sources that could give a good estimate of the comparative 
crime rate. You have yet to comply. To the extent that you've referred 
to sources I can read I've put them on my "to read" list. If you would 
take the additional step of simply answering my simple request then 
we might go forward from here a little better informed and generate some 
light on this subject and not just heat. 

> What you call "gypsy data" in your head is somewhat misinformation and I
> would suggest that an empty head is far better to deal with than one
> cluttered by prejudices -- that the Gypsy community has a higher crime
> rate.

You can be mis-informed without being prejudiced. To be prejudiced is to 
judge emotionally based on preconceived notions and *ignoring new evidence* 
that does not fit with the prejudgment. If anything, I'm seeking out 
new evidence, not ignoring it. I would have thought that a professional 
user of the english language would be good enough not to make that 
mistake.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >  writes:
>CLARY Olivier > wrote:
>>Megye is rather Slavic I think.
>And what would be the original Slavic root word for it?

I wrote from memory but it seems to be right according to the etym. dict.

The form of the word shows its exact origin is Serbo-Croatian medja or
Slovenian meja, but this Slavic word, which also gave Hungarian mezsgye
(retaining the original meaning), exists in many Slavic languages.
For instance Slovak medza, Russian mez^a.
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

URL: <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/web>;
Version: 0.1
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: web
Posting-Frequency: every ten days
Archive-name: hungarian/web
Last-modified: 1996/07/04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 The following is the chapter recently removed from the main body of
the hungarian-faq. This is not yet completely re-edited for stand-alone
format, nor completing a collection of all important links has been
attempted. For more comprehensive WWW directories see, for example:
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>;, <http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; or
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>;.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like WWW
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://www.hix.com>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://www.hix.com/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://www.hix.com/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
"Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ" <http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

- ------------------------------

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
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In article >,
Peller Zoltan > wrote:
| No, ilyen gyenge kifogassal ne is gyere :-) Jo ideje elerheto a 
| multikey nevu szoftver, aminek letezik kereskedelmi es shareware
| verzioja is. A memoriabol kb 5kb-ot (!) foglal, a billentyuelrendezesek
| kiosztasok szeles skalajat ismeri. Es bonuszkent meg a nem standard
| formazasu lemezeket is kezeli. Szoval szuper progi. Van Win3.1x ala
| driver is hozza.
Nekem csak az a bajom hogy ez a hulye driver neha elkezd
magyarul billentyuzni minden jo ok nelkul - ami eddig szaz
dollaromba kerult, ugyanis magyarul raktam be a bios
passwordot, amit amikor a gep a jelszot kerte nem lehetett
ugyanugy beirni, raadasul a gepem olyan profi hogy nem lehet
belole az ismert modszerekkel kiszedni a bios passwordot.
WIN95 alatt viszont van Eastern European Language Support
(meg az echte Amerikai verzioban is) ami szepen mukodik, es
a tray mindig mutatja hogy mileyn klaviaturat hasznal az
ember.

Istvan

Test run!!!

CLARY Olivier > wrote:
>
>The form of the word shows its exact origin is Serbo-Croatian medja or
>Slovenian meja, but this Slavic word, which also gave Hungarian mezsgye
>(retaining the original meaning), exists in many Slavic languages.
>For instance Slovak medza, Russian mez^a.

Hm, the problem with some of the cited Slavic words and the Hungarian
word "mesgye" is that I don't think they had anything to do with the
word "megye" besides sounding similar.  As far as I can remember, mesgye
was the designation of special border regions set up or used for
security purposes.  They were usually based on some natural barriers
against invasions, while the word "megye" has no such meaning. It's
simply an administrative district, just like counties are in other
countries.  I'm not sure what the exact meaning of the Slovenian meja is
and I never heard of the Slovak medza.  I know though that in Slovak the
word medzy means "in between".  There are probably some people here who
remember their Russian better than I and can tell us if "mezha" also has
something to do with "megye", but I know that "in between" or "amongst"
in Russian is "mezhdu" (mezhdunarodny = international). Note, I use the
"zh" to designate the sound we know so well from Dr. Zhivago.

Joe

In article >,
 (Poetician1) wrote:

> dbrutus replies:
> |<collection of crime incidents deleted for irrelevancy to the point> 
> |Hello Wally, I've asked at least a dozen times so far and yet no direct 
> |response from you. 
> 
> Sorry, not a dozen (12) times -- your rhetoric exceeds the facts, something 
> that is all too often characteristic of your posts.

Oh my, it's only been three or four unanswered requests. So sorry. Does 
it make any difference whether I've tried three times or a dozen times to 
find out what evidence is acceptable to you while you ignore the requests 
and change the subject? You're still ignoring the request and changing the 
subject. 

> |You've presented advocacy groups and their reports. 
> |It's some pretty heady stuff. Yet it doesn't address the point of whether 
> |or not gypsies in Romania have a higher, the same, or a lower crime rate 
> |than ethnic romanians.

> You obviously have a comprehension problem when you read, if indeed you do
> read. I did not make the slanderous assertion that the Gypsy community has a
> higher crime rate than the gadje -- you did. 

I have tried to patiently ask for what evidence of the assertion would 
be acceptable to you. You have stubbornly refused to answer it. 

> You were the first the express
> the demand for stats to prove an assertion, which I, in turn, expected the
> same from you concerning your slanderous assertion that the Gypsy community
> has a higher rate of crime. All you could produce is your nose and street
> gossip -- very insubstantial and unreliable stuff, especially to make such a
> grandiose allegation against a community which exists all over Romania, not
> just in a handful of urban centres. Unless your nose has sniffed in all the
> valleys and back alleys of Romania, then your personal "radar" has as much
> reliability as a weather report from the 1940's.

It's a very old and easy game to play. "Give me evidence!" the cry goes out. 
When evidence is presented a new cry is substituted "the evidence is biased!"
and the cycle continues until the real issues are lost in the mists of 
history. 

I want to shortcut this vicious and useless cycle by pre-negotiating some 
jointly agreed to evidence sources and once we agree to the validity of the 
sources, finding out what they have to say. I don't particularly know where 
this process will lead to since I don't have the evidence in advance. I 
desire justice for all including the gypsies and I have no more love for 
police brutality because a gypsy's skull is battered than if it were my 
own. At the same time, I don't wish to become an apologist for the gypsies 
and excuse anything they do. The issue is whether police are over targetting 
gypsies based on their ethnicity. To answer that question you need to know 
the relative crime rates. You still haven't answered my question of where 
can we find a mutually respected source. Please do. 

> |Can't we find some neutral observer's statistics on crime rate and take
> |that raw data to come to our own conclusions? 
> 
> There is no "raw data" supporting the allegation that the Gypsy community
> has a crime rate higher than any other ethnic community. Indeed, the actual
> population (census) of the Gypsy community is dubious, in spite of Elena's
> deep and abiding faith in CIA statistics. I provided one source which
> claimed that the Romanian Ministry of the Interior (Inferior?) asserted that
> Gypsy crime was no higher than the gadje crime rate. It's not much, but you
> have come up with diddly-squat in this regard.

That's because I'm not going to even start researching the subject while 
my fanny is hanging out vulnerable to the "source is biased go find another" 
charade. I've had this done to me enough times that I can smell it coming. 
So name some sources in advance. If we can agree on them then we will find 
out what they say and go forward. From the past you know that I am fully 
prepared to withdraw on a point where I find myself in the wrong. I 
apologize and move on (as most people who make honest mistakes do). Why 
not answer my question?

> |I'm not sure that the gypsies have such a special problem over any other
> |ethnicity in identical circumstances. 
> 
> A punch in the face by a cop is the same whether the recipient is a Gypsy or
> gadje. The salient point is the targeting. The Gypsy community is targeted
> by the forces of law and order. The Gypsy community is scapegoated for
> Romania's ills. The targeting is way out of proportion to the actual
> necessity of reducing the crime rate of one ethnicity over another.

This question is settled by the respective crime rates. We haven't settled 
that yet. If we would, the rest of this conversation would be resolved 
very, very quickly. Why is it you are so reluctant to name some sources? 

> |You've presented advocacy groups and their reports. 
> |It's some pretty heady stuff. Yet it doesn't address the point of whether 
> |or not gypsies in Romania have a higher, the same, or a lower crime rate 
> |than ethnic romanians.
> 
> The advocacy groups, unlike political-party-advocates, are not ambitious for
> power, but for respect of human rights. The reports that I have presented
> here, which you have dismissed out of hand, (and which has been dismissed by
> the political class of Romania as irrelevent and inconsequential) delineates
> a pattern of behaviour by the enforcement arm of the Romanian government --
> the last report also delineated the use of language within the judicial
> system and the effects that this language (which reflects the values and
> thinking of the langauge users) has within the judicial system. This is not
> "crime incidents" as you cavalierly dismiss.

Actually I don't dismiss them for the points that they make. They may 
very well be valid points. That's why I printed out that message and 
have them on my "to read" list as soon as I can find copies. The problem 
is that they don't seem (at least by the references you wrote) to address 
the point under discussion. *That* is the only dismissal that I made, that 
they are not relevant to the narrow point of crime statistics, not that they 
are true or untrue. 

> |I could quite possibly be wrong. I'm willing to change my position based 
> |on better facts but I'm not willing to continue a conversation when 
> |everything has to be conclusion with no independent investigation 
> 
> The UN investigations post-1989 were quite independent and were conducted by
> internationall respected jurists. I suggest you spend a bit of time reading
> those reports. A social situation does not change within a couple years --
> there have been changes in the situation for blacks in the USA but the
> change did not take place overnight and the changes are still incomplete.

Your bibliography didn't seem to include references to them. I'd be 
interested in reading them (you don't happen to have electronic copies 
or reference URL's do you?). 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,
 (Poetician1) wrote:


> Wally Keeler writes: 
> >Police live in the community. They share the same perception
> >(misperception?) that Gypsies have a higher crime rate. The police are
> >largely Romanian, not Gypsy. Why wouldn't they share the same perception
> >as the general population? They are there to enforce the perception, to
> >act on the perception, and thereby get their kudos from the community.
> 
>  (T.M.Lutas) writes:
> |Not all communities have gypsies. In the fight for funding, all police 
> |with low gypsy populations would be protesting that funds are being 
> |misallocated and they deserve more funding. Such debates have not taken 
> |place over the last seven years. This lack of protest is a sign that the 
> |the funds have not been misallocated due to racism but there is a real 
> |higher crime rate that is being combatted.
> 
> It doesn't take much funding to kick in a door, punch a Gypsy in the head 
> and
> drag him off to jail. The police chief and his three officers in one rural
> town needs funding just to exist, so why not get the Gypsies to justify the
> continued existence of a police force. There is no misallocation of funds. 
> The
> purpose is to keep the existing allocation and the Gypsies are easy to get 

The same pressures that mitigate against increased allocations exist 
on unjustified allocations. Bureaucrats are always on the lookout for 
places where they can take money away from others and assign it to 
themselves. 

> Wally Keeler wrote:
> >What would happen to the police chief of the towns where the villages
> >burnings took place and he came out to announce at a town hall meeting
> >that the Gypsies contribute no more to crime than Ion Averagescu. Guess
> >who gets "lynched" figureatively speaking. That's a vested interest.
> 
>  (T.M.Lutas) writes:
> |The police in the town where the village burnings took place should have 
> |caught gypsy criminals as quickly as they caught non-gypsy ones. The 
> |perception of police inaction was the cause of the mob violence in the 
> |first place. 

> That is the conclusion of shallow perception. It is widespread. For example:

So you advocate that the police shouldn't have treated gypsy and non-gypsy 
crime equally? That's the position I'm supporting. Once the idea gets going 
that law enforcement can be politically influenced to go easy, the majority 
can play that game much more effectively than the minority even though a 
minority might have started the game earlier. In the end evenhanded law 
enforcement is the only long-term solution. 

> Miercurea-Ciuc, August 1992, rural purge and murder of Gypsies
> County Public Prosecutor: Andrei Gabriel Burjan
> 
> Burjan said the attack on a small Gypsy community in Harghita County was a
> "personal conflict, a sort of pub fight that had got out of hand, not an
> ethnic conflict at all." The incident, he said, had been triggered by a 
> bunch of Gypsies who demanded to be served at the local bar before some 
> "majority Magyars." No one mentioned the more serious attack a year before 
> in nearby Plaiesii de Sus, in which two men died and 27 houses were 
> destroyed. That also had been described as a "personal conflict."

Perhaps nobody mentioned the attack because the two incidents were not 
connected? Two incidents in the space of a year in different communities 
does not indicate a strong pattern of racism without a great deal more 
facts than have been presented. 

Just a week ago in fairly liberal Westchester County, New York, a black 
man ended up shot because of a parking incident. He parked in a private 
store lot and went shopping across the street. When he came back five 
minutes later, his car had been stickered with a "do not park here if you 
are not a patron". He was mad, went into the store, got into a shouting 
match which escalated into a shoving match, which escalated into a baseball 
bat and ended when an off-duty police officer (the store owners son) shot 
him dead when he came in and saw this man beating his father with a bat. 

Is it a racial incident? Many black leaders are playing it up like that. 
My boss happens to shop in the area sometimes, says that the storeowner 
is famous for being a real bastard about whoever uses his parking lot 
and anybody would have been stickered and argued with the same way no 
matter his color. If the police officer is acquitted in the investigation 
into the incident, we are likely to have some racial rioting because of it. 
Is it justified? It's a tough call from where I sit. Disagreements happen 
and escalate into murder for many reasons, not just racial and it wouldn't 
be the first time that a bar brawl led to blood being spilled. 

>      "Such provocations are like pouring benzene on the tensions here," the
> prosecutor said, undermining his insistence that this "pub fight" had no
> racial dimension. The publican, a Magyar like most of his customers, had
> turfed the Gypsies out. And "instead of behaving," they had responded by
> enetering the plots of the Magyars, formerly collective land, and stealing
> everything. I interrupted him to inquire if the Gypsies in Casin had 
> received any plots of their own since 1989.

So why does their land possession have anything to do with their theft? Is 
the fact that they do not have land relevant to their violation of the law? 
They were ticked off and decided to wreck other people's property. What 
excuse is there for that? Subsequent mob violence is not excusable but 
good police work early on should have headed that off by catching the 
wreckers and theives and put them in jail. 

>      "Unfortunately they have not," Burjan conceded. "But this too was their
> own fault. The law provides that anyone who worked on a co-operative for at
> least three years is entitled to a share. The Gypsies never apply. They have
> hundreds of children all the time and none of them, adults either, are ever
> registered with the town authorities, as they are required to do by law."

Romania, like most other ex-communist countries is still a bureaucratically 
minded country. If the rules say that without registering and applying 
you don't get land, why should gypsies be exempt? Is the pain in the neck 
paperwork only to apply to romanian and magyar ethnics? This doesn't go 
to the point of whether the paperwork should be there in the first place, 
but why should gypsies be free of it if others are not? 

> Casin was home to fewer than five hundred people. The Gypsies there were 
> long settled, not seasonally hired hands. In such a small town, of course 
> everyone would know exactly who had worked in the local co-operative. But 
> this was not the point. "They never have the documention," the prosecutor 
> explained. "They have no proofs."

Even in the US, if you try to get a drivers license without proper 
documentation they turn you down. I'm 28 and I was asked for proof of age
along with my 35 year old friend two days ago. If we didn't turn it over 
we would not have been served even though it is legal for both of us to 
drink. 

Heck, my grandfather didn't pay five dollars for re-entry permits to the 
US back in the 30's. If he had, my entire family would have been spared the 
horrors of WWII and the communist occupation. The world is full of sad 
stories of people who didn't file the right paperwork with the government. 
That doesn't give them any special claim to sympathy. 

>       "Do you mean that all the Gypsies (160 people rendered homeless) whose
> houses were burned down were stealing corn that day?" asked Fonseca.
>      "It doesn't matter," the prosecutor explained. "Every one of them has
> committed crimes in the past. You see, the Gypsies have a consensus on 
> crime. They live by theft."

The mob violence is inexcusable. For some reason it doesn't happen any more. 
I believe that the police crackdown is the reason (as I had predicted in the 
past). Police quickly catching criminals is the best medicine against mob 
violence. This formula is true no matter what country the crime happens in 
and no matter the race of those involved. 

>  (T.M.Lutas) writes:
> |The police in the town where the village burnings took place should have 
> |caught gypsy criminals as quickly as they caught non-gypsy ones. The 
> |perception of police inaction was the cause of the mob violence in the 
> |first place. 
> 
> The police in this village (as is the case in other villages) did 
> investigate,
> pursue and convict Gypsy criminals. They never took any action against the
> Romanian/Magyar murders and arsonists. There was police action all right. 
> The only police action that has resulted has been targeted against the 
> Gypsies. Perhaps you can explain to me why no Romanian has been convicted 
> of murder or arson or assault in these many acts of mob violence. I don't 
> think there is a two or three year statute of limitation on arson or murder 
> in Romania.

What would you have them do? Cart off the entire adult population of a 
village? When it gets that bad, that big, all law enforcement everywhere 
stops trying to arrest people and they look to contain the damages. 

During the LA riots you could see police within 10 feet of thieves carting 
off merchandise from stores yet they didn't try to arrest them. There were 
maybe 50 arrests made in the largest urban riot this decade in the US. 
There were literally tens of thousands of people involved in those riots, 
many of them caught on videotape. The tapes were not used to trace rioters. 
Certainly the police were not secretly in league with those black and 
hispanic rioters. Why do you think they acted so much like the Romanian 
police did? 

> |Who wants to take street revenge if they know that the police will ensure
> |justice?
> 
> What Romanian/Magyar needs to take street revenge when they know that the
> police, by proxy, will kick in the teeth of the Gypsies, knowing full well
> that any Gypsy organs who complain about such treatment will be offhandly
> dismissed with the phrase: insufficient proofs. Sound familiar?

Not really. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

Keresem barhol a vilagon a Magyarorszagon kivul elo, de magyarul beszelo 
szemelyeket,csaladokat, akik szivesen latnanak Magyarorszagrol 
kiutazo,vilagot latni kivano magyar szemelyeket, vagy csaladokat 
mersekelt napi osszegert.

Cim-katalogust allitok ossze a jelentkezokbol, amelyben mindenki az 
altala megadott feltetelekkel szerepel. Minden jelentkezo 
meghatarozhatja, hogy mit tud nyujtani. A legfontosabb a 
szallaslehetoseg, de ezen felul is mod van mas szolgaltatasokokat 
felkinalni, peldaul reggelit, vagy vacsorat, esetleg teljes
ellatast is. Fontos lehet, hogy vallalja az erkezok varasat a 
palyaudvaron, vagy a repuloteren, de lehet vallalni programszervezest, 
vagy az erkezok segiteset a nevezetessegek megtekintesenel, egyszeru 
tolmacsolassal egybekotott amator idegenvezetest is. Fontos lehet meg 
konyha-hasznalat felkinalasa, elemiszerek huto-ben valo tarolasa, stb.

 Nagyon sok magyar honfitarsunk azert nem utazhat, mert a kulfoldi 
szallas koltsegei messze meghaladjak fizetokepesseget. Ezert nagyon 
fontos, hogy az erre vallalkozok szereny arakat kerjenek 
szolgaltatasaikert. A koltsegek csokkentese erdekeben a cim-katalogusba 
torteno felvetel dijtalan.
 A tenylegesen kiutazok a szallasadonak kozvetlenul fizetik majd a 
megallapitott dijat.
Minden kiutazast elore egyeztetunk, minden megallapodast irasban 
rogzitunk.
Az egyeztetes tortenhet az Interneten, vagy levelposta, vagy telefon, 
fax utjan.
Minden jelentkezonek valaszolunk, kivansaga szerinti modon, de lehetoleg 
E-mailt hasznalunk.
Szivesen fogadjuk,ha Onok bemutatjak kornyezetuket es az ott adodo 
lehetosegeket, amelyek a kiutazoknak elmenyt jelenthetnek. Egyarant 
erdekes lehet valamely nagyvaros, vagy a szep termeszeti kornyezet, 
sportolasi lehetosegek, vagy kulturalis esemenyek meglatogatasanak 
lehetosege. Orommel fogadunk fenykepeket, akar video-felveteleket is, 
amelyeket a kiutazni vagyoknak be tudunk mutatni.

Ha felkeresem elnyerte tetszeset, kerem, hivja fel ra magyarul beszelo 
ismerosei, baratai figyelmet is. Szeretettel varom jelentkezesuket.

E-mail: 

 Kivansag eseten levelpostai uton megadom cimemet es/vagy 
telefonszamomat.

-- 
Dr Lantos Arpad

amnesty international - request timed out.
What is to do?

- - quote - - 

Microsoft(R) Windows 95
   (C)Copyright Microsoft Corp 1981-1995.

C:\WINDOWS>tracert 198.133.36.91

Tracing route to www.amnesty.org [198.133.36.91]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1   173 ms   152 ms   150 ms  proxima.elender.hu [194.143.224.27]
  2   155 ms   149 ms   157 ms  sirius.elender.hu [194.143.224.30]
  3   858 ms   754 ms   763 ms  gsl-dc-3-Serial12/1:4.gsl.net
[204.59.225.81]
  4     *        *      761 ms  gsl-sl-dc-fddi.gsl.net [204.59.144.199]
  5   744 ms   738 ms   746 ms  198.67.0.6
  6   984 ms   909 ms   793 ms  sl-pen-1-H2/0-T3.sprintlink.net
[144.228.10.34]
  7   747 ms   762 ms   840 ms  sl-pen-7-F0/0.sprintlink.net [144.228.60.7]
  8   890 ms   775 ms   802 ms  sl-accld-1-S0-T1.sprintlink.net
[144.228.67.30]
  9   815 ms   779 ms   968 ms  t3-1.toronto.onet.on.ca [206.231.247.237]
 10   787 ms   849 ms   815 ms  t1-1.toronto.ican.net [206.231.247.254]
 11     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 14     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 15     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 16     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 17     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 18     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 19     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 20     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 21     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 22     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 23     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 24     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 25     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 26     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 27     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 28     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 29     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 30     *        *        *     Request timed out.

Trace complete.

C:\WINDOWS>

(....)

C:\WINDOWS>ping www.amnesty.org

Pinging www.amnesty.org [198.133.36.91] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

- - unquote - -