Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 IMF critics II. (mind)  295 sor     (cikkei)
2 Our Blind Spot For Vojvodina (mind)  129 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: your mail (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Magyars in Serbia. (mind)  135 sor     (cikkei)
5 millcentennial (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: MAGYARS IN SERBIA Re: Minority rights. (Re: Clinton (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
7 Toronto (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)

+ - IMF critics II. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

   Title:  IMPs in Eastern Europe
   Author: Vera M"ra
   Source: Enough is Enough! -- The A SEED Europe guide to action

   See copyright notice at the bottom of this file

   We would like to introduce you to IMPs -- Inform me about that
   Multinational Please! More literally, an IMP is a little devil, and in
   this case one which tries to interfere with the smooth operations of
   big multinational corporations investing in Eastern Europe. A SEED IMPs
   do this by gathering and exchanging information about TNCs and their
   activities. This may in turn lead to such mischievous outcomes as
   lawsuits against environmentally-destructive companies, boycotts, and
   creative actions.

   _The situation in Eastern Europe_

   One of the new key words in Eastern Europe nowadays is Western
   investment. Everybody talks about it, but from a different point of
   view: government officials see it as the way out of the present
   economic crisis and as a tool for reaching the highly-desired "market
   economy" and the well-being of Western societies; businessmen see it as
   a great possibility for more work; trade unions see it as new jobs
   created; and environmentalists see it as, in many cases, disastrous
   activities including the export of pollution and waste to their

   So what's the reality behind all this? Truly the collapsing communist
   regimes left behind a terrible mess: artificially maintained,
   unprofitable industries; large external debts; and huge environmental
   destruction. There is no question that the environment was low on their
   political agendas; they even dared to claim that since communism was
   designed to meet the workers' needs, there was no opportunity for
   environmental problems to arise. But in the last years before the
   changes, it was no longer possible to hide the destruction -- indeed,
   in some countries the environmental issue played a big role in bringing
   the communists down.

   _State support?_

   The reasons for the pollution were quite simple: some factories had
   been around for as long as 50 years, and nobody cared -- or was forced
   to care -- about proper clean up. The socialist state wanted to show
   its prosperity through industrial output. But in striving for more
   production, they often forgot about the simple fact that nobody wanted
   their products because of their low quality. So the factories simply
   weren't profitable, and could only be maintained through massive state
   support. With unprofitable industries, state support can only come from
   external sources, meaning loans. And these loans prevented the
   companies from modernizing, which led to this dismal situation. These
   problems obviously can hardly be solved by the new, inexperienced, poor
   Eastern governments alone -- the help of the outside world is needed.
   But the question is what help really means, and who helps whom? Because
   as long as support comes within the framework of the banking and
   business world, we can't expect real help. These are no charity
   institutions, they are all seeking profit, and they will go wherever
   they can hope to find it. So, one thing is sure: they will always
   profit more from helping Eastern Europe than will the Eastern European
   countries will profit themselves.

   _West-East support?_

   The main form of support to Eastern Europe is in loans for new
   investments. There are several development banks and institutions
   active in this field. The most important is the European Bank for
   Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), which gives the majority of the
   loans in the region. 60% of its finances are directed towards the
   private sector, and 40% towards the public sector.

   The investments are generally made by foreign multinational firms (even
   when there is suitable domestic capacity available), or loans are given
   upon the request of some Western company to enable them to invest in
   East Europe. So "support" basically means helping these companies to
   gain more.

   But the companies' activities also give reason for concern. Since the
   environmental and social standards of Eastern countries are lower and
   less reinforced, outdated, banned Western technologies very often
   appear, along with their pollution and waste. In addition, the many new
   industries are accompanied by new transit motorways which bring no
   profit to the countries, nuclear power plants, and waste exports, which
   all contribute to East Europe's bad environmental record.

   Another disadvantage of the new investments is that they often take
   over and kill existing domestic production, which on the one hand can
   contribute to unemployment, and on the other hand makes East Europe
   more dependent upon imports.

   _Attracting TNCs_

   What's even worse is that the governments of East European countries do
   almost everything to attract these companies, so that the companies are
   then able to define practically all the conditions under which they
   operate. This means measures like:
   ~   relaxing the limits to foreign equity participation in new joint
       ventures (in most countries, measures to prevent majority
       overtaking previously);
   ~   tax holidays (100% tax reductions, usually for the first five years
       of operation), and serious tax reductions (for example, in the case
       of Tetra Pak building a factory in Hungary, it was as much as 60%);
   ~   exemption from import duties;
   ~   free repatriation of profits and free imports/exports. With all
       this, it seems almost as if the countries pay TNCs to buy up their
       domestic industries! But this scene is in fact nothing new. If we
       look at the Southern hemisphere, we can see exactly the same
       pattern. Companies increasingly shift their activities to the South
       in order to make use of cheap labour, non-existent worker's rights,
       and low environmental standards.


   These corporations very often have double standards: in the North
   (West) they run a clean factory equipped with all environmental
   facilities; but in the South (East) the same factory is running without
   any of these expensive cleanup systems. Or -- if TNCs can't meet the
   environmental regulations in their original country -- they just move
   their whole operation and the resulting pollution to a place where the
   operating conditions are more convenient for them.

   Also, much of the Third World debt problem originated from loans taken
   by governments to start expensive industrial investments in the name of
   "development". We can see the sad results today. We shouldn't be so
   naive as to think that it will be different in Eastern Europe just
   because of all the lip service paid to supporting "development". We
   will have all the consequences -- dependence on imports, waste dumping,
   eco-colonialism -- no doubt!

   _Smiling green industries _

   But this is still not the only danger. Many of the investments have a
   green colour: they claim to improve the target country's environmental
   situation by bringing in new technologies, by investing in cleanup and
   pollution prevention systems, etc. But while the damage caused by
   socialist industries was very obvious, these new developments harm the
   environment in a more sophisticated, indirect way, and therefore it's
   more difficult to argue against them.

   Production may seem clean, and the product might be environmentally-
   sound, but there is still the problem of the new overflow of goods in
   the market; of overconsumption; of the waste of resources; and, last
   but not least, to the growing garbage pile.

   _West-East support!_

   What to do with all these concerns? It is not possible to simply rely
   on the press and media in East Europe, since they are extremely biased,
   and usually singing hallelujah about the great new achievements to be
   reached with the help of Western investments.

   It is very important for activists in Eastern countries to have access
   to more reliable information about what investor companies are doing in
   their own countries; what the real motives behind their investments
   are; what the operating conditions are; and what the effects may be.
   This information is naturally not available in East Europe, and it's
   often not easy to get even in the West.  This is where A SEEDers can
   help (and this is real help, not like the Western investors helping
   themselves). With the IMPs project, we try to give a basis for more
   regular contact between Western and Eastern organizations. We find out
   about the needs of the Eastern groups -- what kind of investigations
   about which firms are necessary -- and link them up with organizations
   already working in these fields.

   _The A SEED IMPs campaign_

   The starting point for the project was a questionnaire that inquired
   about the needs and interests of people in Eastern Europe. At the same
   time, we started looking around in Amsterdam to find already existing
   materials, as well as possible resource persons and organizations.
   Since the beginning of the project, the main priority has been to find
   contacts both in East and West Europe. A SEED then acts as an
   intermediary between those who are in the need of information and those
   who have access to it, since A SEED itself has neither the capacity,
   nor the background to do the research alone. Several people from
   different East European countries replied to our first questionnaire,
   and we now have close contacts in Estonia, Czech Republic, Hungary,
   Slovenia and Croatia. In addition, we have received questionnaires from
   the Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, and Bulgaria.

   In Western Europe, the best contacts at the moment are in the
   Netherlands. Here in Amsterdam there is a very interesting organization
   called SOMO -- the Centre for Research on Multinational Companies.
   Their archive is quite impressive, and we have found a great deal of
   useful information there during our frequent visits. Besides the
   Netherlands, the IMPs in Sweden are very active, researching Swedish
   multinationals in Central and Eastern Europe as well as in Asia. We
   have also discovered that research organizations similar to SOMO exist
   in England, France, Uruguay, and Brazil.

   From our research so far, it appears that the following companies are
   the most active in Eastern Europe: Shell, British Petroleum, Statoil,
   Tetra Pak, Westinghouse, Siemens, ABB, IKEA, Philips, Unilever, Nestl ,
   Coca-Cola, and McDonalds. And some of these companies have terrible
   environmental records!

   _About our plans_

   We hope to continue with what we have done up to now, which has been
   providing people with the information that they have asked for. What
   happens with this information afterwards is of course up to the people
   who have asked for it. There are several possibilities, such as
   starting info campaigns against dirty companies, and using the
   information as arguments to present to governments, for example.

   At the next A SEED General Meeting (which will take place in Brno in
   the Czech Republic between 18-22 of May), we plan to have a one day
   IMPs meeting. The main aim of the meeting will be to exchange
   experiences and information, but we will also invite a resource person
   to give a background lecture.

   We are also planning an IMPs seminar for the end of 1994. The the
   provisional agenda is as follows:

   ~   3 days of background lectures on foreign investment, economies in
       transition and visits to research organizations and institutes in
       the Netherlands.
   ~   2 days of information exchange, discussions and planning for the
   ~   2 days of training on information and media campaigns. The seminar
       may be followed up with national reports and/or coordinated action
       days against the activities of certain companies.

   Examples of the type of information being collected by A SEED Europe
   and gathered in the Amsterdam office are case studies like the
   following, on TetraPak and Asea Brown Boveri. We will be preparing more
   of these in the future. Please tell us if you have specific requests.

   About the author of this article:

   Veronika M"ra is a Hungarian activist working with Fiatalok az Erdoert
   Akcio in Budapest. She coordinates the A SEED Europe IMPs project in
   Hungary, and also works in the Amsterdam office during her school

   ************************* Copyright notice ****************************
   *                                                                     *
   *                                                                     *
   *           This article was previously published in                  *
   *                                                                     *
   *      Enough is enough! The A SEED Europe guide to action            *
   *                                                                     *
   *        A publication of A SEED Europe, Amsterdam, 1993              *
   *                                                                     *
   *                                                                     *
   *                                                                     *
   *                            A SEED                                   *
   *                                                                     *
   *    (Action for Solidarity, Equality, Environment and Development)   *
   *                                                                     *
   *                                                                     *
   *    You may reproduce this file for electronic transfer or posting   *
   *      on computer networks and bulletin boards provided that it      *
   *     remains unaltered and no profit is made from such transfer.     *
   *                                                                     *

   *                                                                     *
   *     If you would like to know more about A SEED, please contact     *
   *                                                                     *
   *     A SEED EUROPE                                                   *
   *      (e-mail);                                   *
   *     +31-20-6650166 (fax);                                           *
   *     +31-20-6682236 (tel).                                           *
   *     P.O. Box 92066, 1090 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands              *
   *                                                                     *

   *** This file was put on the A SEED gopher at 94-08-25
+ - Our Blind Spot For Vojvodina (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bila Liptak
        84 Old N. Stamford Road, Stamford, CT 06905-3961
        T:203-357-7614, Fax:203-325-3922,

It might seem that the Holbrooke-Milosevic pact will deliver justice, as it
makes the Bosnian Serbs to taste their own medicine. Unfortunately, the
domino-effect of this pact creates worst problems than what it solves and the
new victims are innocent third parties: Hungarians and Albanians. Because the
American public is totally unaware of this, I prepared the attached OP-ED
piece. If you need it, I can also fax you maps: Bila Liptak.

        The Balkan Tragedy: Our Blind Spot For Vojvodina
Vojvodina's population is greater than Bosnia's. A multi-cultural tapestry of
Hungarian, Croatian, Serb, German, Roma, Slovak, Romanian and Ruthenian
cultures flourished here for centuries. Yet, many maps don't even distinguish
Vojvodina from Serbia and few know what is happening there, because few
reporters ever visit Vojvodina. Yet, the process of ethnic cleansing, which
caused the Bosnian tragedy, has also reached Vojvodina. The majority of the
over 200,000 Serbs dislodged from the Krajina region of Croatia and from
southern Bosnia are being used to extricate the Hungarian population of
       Why is it, that by attempting to solve one problem (Bosnia), we manage
to create two: the de- stabilizing of both Vojvodina and Kosovo? Why is it,
that the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina Serbs from Croatia, which our State
Department called  a window of opportunity for peace , and the ethnic
cleansing of the south-Bosnia Serbs, which is a byproduct of NATO's bombing,
might not facilitate peace, and in fact, could draw the neighboring countries
of Hungary and Albania into the conflict. Why is it, that in order to make
Slobodan Milisevic to sign on to the American-led Contact Group's peace
proposal, he has to be offered a trade-off, at the expense of the Hungarians
in Vojvodina and of the Albanians in Kosovo?
      To find the answers, we have to understand the mind-set of the
bureaucrats in the State Department. In the Kissinger-Eagleburger cookbook,
the recipe for solving international problems is to mix one part of selective
justice with two parts of alternating determination against and appeasement
of the aggressors. The recipe avoids the salt of an overall plan or of a long
range regional concept. Bureaucrats believe that only the victors deserve
justice and only the losers can be found guilty. Therefore the Serbs deserve
full autonomy within Bosnia, but the minorities in Serbia, or elsewhere in
Central Europe do not.
       For most of the last 1100 years, Vojvodina was part of Hungary. Only
after the dismemberment of the Hungarian Kingdom and the creation of such
unnatural entities as Yugoslavia in 1918-20, did Vojvodina become an
autonomous region of that federation. According to the 1974 Yugoslav
constitution, Vojvodina should be an autonomous province of Yugoslavia (not
Serbia!) This autonomy, and that of Kosovo, were arbitrarily rescinded in
       Vojvodina is the breadbasket of Serbian-Yugoslavia. It is already it's
most densely populated region, consisting of the Srem, which was part of
Croatia-Slavonia until 1918, Backa, which was part of Hungary and the western
part of Banat, also part of Hungary. The Hungarians did not get involved in
the Bosnian war. They did not side with any of the warring factions.
Consequently they are being treated as enemies by all.
     Today Croatia and Serbia are getting ready to fight over the Hungarian
villages of Eastern Slavonia. Croatia is also furthering her ethnic purity by
quadrupling the taxes on the Adriatic vacation homes of Vojvodina Hungarians,
which, under the present economic conditions is the same as confiscating
them. Yet, this is nothing compared to what the Serbs are doing to the
Vojvodina Hungarians.
       At the time of Hungary's dismemberment in 1920, Vojvodina's Serb
population was only 25%. Through expulsions, and other forms of uprooting of
the non-Serb population and by importing Serb colonialists, the Serbian
population by 1948, has increased to 55%. During the Communist era, this
ethnic cleansing process has further intensified, and by 1991 the Hungarian
population of Vojvodina was reduced to 17%.  Today, only 350,000 Hungarians
remain in Vojvodina and the only compact cluster of Hungarian presence that
survives is in the north-central part, along the Tisza river. It is this
 problem  that the Serb refugees from the Krajina and south-Bosnia are
supposed to  solve .
       According to the Democratic Community of Hungarians in Vojvodina:  The
Hungarians of Vojvodina are facing the danger of a FINAL SOLUTION, because
Vojvodina is being purged of its non-Serb popula tion.  According to them,
the Croat victory in the Krajina and in south-Bosnia was so swift, because
this  population transfer  has already been agreed to by both the Serbs and
the Croats.
       Bila Csorba, a Hungarian MP in the Serb-Yugoslav Parliament, described
the ethnic cleansing of a small Hungarian village named Svilojevo (Szilagyi)
in this manner:  The Krajina Serbs cruised up and down the streets of Apatin,
Sombor, Sonta and Svilojevo. On August 11, 1995 homes were confiscated from
their owners. By the time we have arrived to investigate, the village was
almost completely abandoned by its original inhabitants.
       Part of the problem is due to the difference in the personalities
between the Krajina Serbs and the Vojvodina Hungarians. The Krajina Serbs
have a warrior mentality, they carry guns, for centuries they have been in
uninterrupted conflict with the Croats, their view of life is based on
constant struggle and hate for one's neighbors, their personality corresponds
to the rugged terrain they have inherited. The placidity of Vojvodina
Hungarians corresponds to the openness of their fertile plains. Yet, their
friendly and mild personality does not mean, that their patience is
unlimited. They are a strong and determined people. Monica Seles is a
Vojvodina Hungarian.
       Politicians who push Hungarians to the limit, should remember 1915,
the only time when Serbia was occupied in this century, or 1956, when the Red
Army learned, what happens, when Hungarians lose their temper. Hungary has
already accepted some 50,000 Hungarian and some 100,000 non-Hungarian
refugees from the disintegrating Yugoslavia. This economic burden, combined
with the loss of Hungary's southern markets, is testing her frail economy to
the limit. She has already protested the ethnic cleansing of Vojvodina and
will have no choice, but to defend her interests more forcefully if this
process continues.
     So what should be done in the microcosm of Vojvodina and in the
macrocosm of Central Europe?
     To Vojvodina, UN and NATO observers should be dispatched immediately,
and the restoration of her autonomy should be made an integral part of any
overall peace agreement.
     As to the whole of Central Europe, it is essential to replace the
practice of selective justice and appeasement of aggressors with  clearly
defined overall goals and with uniform standards that are applicable to all.
Richard Holbrooke is right, when he wants to provide group rights to all
three ethnic groups in Bosnia, but he is wrong, if he wants to limit these
rights only to Bosnia. There will be no peace in Central Europe, until all
ethnic groups are guaranteed their autonomy.
     On the other hand, once the ethnic tensions are eliminated through the
universal guarantee of cultural autonomy, the root cause of the upheavals in
the Balkans can also be solved. It is  power vacuum  in the region.
Throughout history, the Balkans were stable only, when a local power in the
Danubian Basin guaranteed it. The present power vacuum can only be eliminated
through the formation of an economically self-sufficient, politically stable
and militarily neutral Danubian Confederation.
       In 1920, President Wilson felt, that only through the formation of a
Danubian Confederation can a peaceful and prosperous Central Europe be
reestablished. It would be a tribute to Wilsonian vision, if President
Clinton, when, on the 26th of September, he meets the President of Romania,
he would use the occasion to express his support for the Danubian
Bila Liptak is a former Yale professor, who has published many technical
books and has recently been invited to Budapest as a Fulbright Scholar.
+ - Re: your mail (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul, I stated what I did (RE: The Budapest Sun) because it is targeted at
Americans only,
and the sort of things they cover are aimed at the upper crust of the
AMericans that are living there. Coverage of grand balls, social events
for Americasn, etc, just don't mlead me to think that the editorship or
reporters are in touch with the problems in Hungary. No, it is not the
obvious Republican bent to the reporting and editorials, it is the
content itself. That was all.

Don't get me wrong, I was glad to get it just to confirm in English what
I was reading in the Hungarian press, but was it really worth what I was
paying for it? Not really

Darren Purcell
+ - Re: Magyars in Serbia. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Sandor Lengyel x2495 wrote:

> >>Indeed, Serbia and Hungary should find a common language easily.  But,
> >>Serbia has to change politically, and Hungary has to acknowledge that
> >>Serbia is its primary interest and a friend (so does Serbia).  Hungary
> >>must claim full neutrality in the Yugo war and not try to get cheap
> >>points with Americans and western Europeans on accusing "Serbian beast"
> >>when its clear that no one in Yugoslavia is innocent.
> On the personal level, the Serbians were my favorite among the central
> europians. But wrong is wrong, and beleiving in the right of self-
> determination,  most hungarians fault Serbia with agression.

Well, I always thought that Serbia can't be abetter place with so many
people mixed.  I always loved that in its soul.  Most of us from
Belgrade thought it's, for example, very cool that the city was
Singidunum, Alba Graeca, Alba Bulgarica, weissenburg, Nandorfehervar,
Abu al Jihaad.  We in Belgrade don't like those Bosnian and Krajina
"mountaineers" coming to our city with their Balkan style.  Nor do

You see, who is wrong and who is right is always a big bullshit.  I
don't agree that Serbs are aggresors.  OK, if you talk about Vukovar,
Dubrovnik, or about cleansing of Drina valley and Banja Luka, I am the
first who says
that Serb scum needs to rotten in hell.  But, it's all much more complex.
Facts are not all known, such as that 230,000 Serbs were kicked out of
Sarajevo first, and then got on the hills to "liberate" it; it is their
city after all..  "Liberators" against "defenders" (Muslims)- typical for
a civil war.  Who to side with?
Serbs are kicked out of Krajina, Tuzla, Mostar, Zenica, all of Neretva valley,
and now from the Western Bosnia where they made more than 90% of the
population (Belgrade, say, has "only" 70%).
Or crap with Krajina and now Serbless Croatia (out of 900,000, 50,000 is
left).  That can't be justified by the so-called "pay-back" because Tudjman's
regime promised in 1990 the same kind of treatment for Serbs like
Pavelic in WW2 (in short, that's knife at the throat).

Balkan is a big bitch, and I can't agree that anyone is an aggresor.
People like Milosevic, Karadzic, Tudjman are nothing new.  They are a
few little leaders.  All these countries are little and listen to
others (so does Hungary). The world screwed up big time by trying to
minimize Serbian interest from the beginning so-called "balancing" of the
sides) and that led to a horrible fascism on the Serbian side fed by the
ghosts of the past.  They went on and killed a lot, but more than 1,000,000
refugees in Serbia are not tourists.  They lost everything.  And that
was the POINT of my posting - I wanted to "ease" some fully justified
concerns of Magyars by explaining that Serbs don't come to Vojvodina
because they like it.  They were kicked out.

You know that Yugoslavs were fairly rich people.  Official stats say a
little different, but piles of money were in every house.  I talk
especially about Panonian region and some inland areas where German
"gastarbajters" (around .5 million) live.  Krajina people were people
with a great deal of property, wineyards, land, etc.  They lost it.
Their hills should be substituted by Vojvodina.  Vojvodina is a beauty,
but not for them.  They lost all their belongings (worth up to a million
DM) in the best case; most lost family.  That's why I say that it's not
good for Hungarian government not to protest with Croatia and help
refugees go back home.  Unforunately, its government somewhat repeats
the mistake of accusing only Serbs which is a perfect excuse for Seselj,
Arkan, and other mobsters to go ahead with "pacifying" non-Serbs and
"bad" Serbs in Serbia.

All in all, until Serbia changes and becomes free, neither Serbs nor
Magyars will be free.  And I think that minorities are the treasury of
this country.  "Our" Magyars should be bridge for a co-operation and
friendship.  I have no problem going to Novi Sad (Ujvidek) or
Subotica (Szabadka) and having all these languages on the walls nor I
care if Magyars have two citizenships, their TV.  That's what makes a
country cool and open.  Unfortunately, that's been slowed down in 1991,
and if there is not enough energy in Serbia to get rid of fascists (the
same for Croatia), noooot gud.  But I hope that things can get better.
It just takes time and tolerance.

> This has nothing to do to listening to western voices, unfortunatelly
> it a fact. Even if the other side is not pure,  Serbia is more to blame.
> All nationalities ar capable of atrocities. Unfortunatelly it is now
> Serbians turn. I hope it will teach humility and tolerance. (i.e.
> "We serbians are not better than the croats, germans and other nations.")
> I personally find that the hungarian goverment did not support
> sufficiently the bosnians.

As I just stated, I think it did.  "Bosnians" are Serbs, Muslims, and
Croats living in Bosnia.  They lived together since ever.  They are
constituent peoples, and therefore ALL have the right to self-determine
themselves.  It's very dangerous to take sides in a civil war.  Yes,
Bosnian Serbs did more bad stuff.  Now others do.  You can't say Muslims
and Croats "pay back".  In the Balkans,
pay-back time is never known (for Serbs, this is the payback for WW2 - 1
mill. killed in BH and Craotia).  Yes, they find a mass grave with
killed Muslims.  Well, they find a mass grave of decapitated Serbs, but
then that's called a "response", so no, one cares about it.  No way.

Again, I have no problem with your personal views.  I don't attack
them.  But, just think what kind of reprisal would have a Hungarian
support of Muslims.  Please understand that a Serb refugee coming to
Vojvodina is not Karadzic (Karadzic and his Swiss money are safe); but
that refugee becomes one because of "outside support" for Muslims.  Muslims
are no better than Serbs, and they kick out brutally; they actually
implore some Arabic ways of killing which is not to write about.  And then,
the refugee comes to, say, Vojvodina and a new big problem comes around.
Serbian media drums about the support of Hungary, and then Hungarians
who lived in Vojvodina since ever pay the price - another
chain reaction.

> >>Overall, this problem is not an ethnic problem, it's pure politics.  As
> >>soon as the war stops, things will settle.
> Yes. But allmost all ethnic problems are politics. Lot of the rumanians
> and slovaks get along well with the hungarians, the problems are
> with the leaders.

Absolutely.  I have all the blame for Milosevic for what he did to
Serbia.  I say that our worst enemies wouldn't do to us what he did.
But he is just a piece of the puzzle. (I had hard time accepting that; I
thought he was the only one). A big piece, but still he's not
the only one.  This is yet not 1941 where you have Hitler against the
world and know what to do.  This is a civil war.  Victims are the same as
always; it's just that sides change (as you said).

> > >>Compare to Transylvania,
> >>Vojvodina has always been a peaceful ethnic mixture (26 nationalities).
> True. Unfortunatelly it is in the past. Hopefully (but I am not sure)
> it will be in the future.
> Sandor Lengyel.

It's not good.  I left Belgrade along with 150,000 other young people,
and I want to live there, but not now.  I'm a "refugee".

Boris (from down the Danube)
+ - millcentennial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like any information concerning the 1,100 year celebrations
of the resetling of Hungarians into the center of Europe, which will be
held.. in Hungary and elsewhere. Programs, times and organizations. I am
starting a personal webpage dealing with the subject


and would like any subject or articles dealing with this historic event
or the culture and way of life of the people. If I find such articles
interesting and positive I will include it amongst the current files. I
intend to rotate some files and wish to include a
diverse set of data. I am also concerned that the size of this will soon
overflow a minimal "personal webpage" therefore I am looking for a
sponsoring group where this can be contained later on.

Fred Hamori
+ - Re: MAGYARS IN SERBIA Re: Minority rights. (Re: Clinton (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

> " by 50,000 since 1945 - a few hundred thousand consider themselves
> >"Yugoslav".  Another thing is the 1956 help that Serbia provided to
> >Hungarian heroes - several tens of thousands fled to Serbia, of which
> >some 15,000 permanently settled.  No one has seen any problem with that,
> >so there should be some understanding for homeless (previously rich)
> >Serbs from Krajina.
> >
> >Cheers.
> As a direct result of the Revolution of 1956 in Hungary 19,880 Hungarian
> refugees crossed the border to Yugoslavia. 2,780 of them returned to
> Hungary, 16,610 departed for other countries, mainly to the West. By June
> 1960 only 500 of them remained in Yugoslavia.
> Source: Report of the Statistical Office of the United Nations High
> Commissioner for Refugees, National Archives of Canada, Records of the
> Department of External Affairs, RG 25, 86-87/336, Volume 160, File
> 5475-EA-4-40.
> Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

OK.  If I made a mistake, it's not exactly mine.  I quoted a statement by
a Hungarian leader in Serbia Ferenc Csubela.  He said that in "Telegraf"
weekly on Sep. 27, 1995, Belgrade.

+ - Toronto (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Are there any Toronto area women here?

+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T. Kocsis ) wrote:
: In article > Alexander Bossy, 
: writes:
: > What Hungary  did before 1919 was far worse than what Romania
: > is doing today.

: AFAIK, the Hungarian minority would  be very content with that
: rights that the Roman minority had in Hungary before 1919.  ;) :) ;)

        Hi Tamas:

        I'm not so sure.  Would they be willing to have NO state-sponsored
Hungarian-language schooling, for example?  We've had quite a few threads
about the new Romanian education law that would seem to belie that.