I am writing a thesis on the differences in the way the EU views the
Czech Republic and Hungary.  I am looking at their differing experiences under
Soviet rule, differing transitions, current economic differences, foreign
policy, ethnic makeup, geopolitical, governments and politics, levels of
democratization, anthropological and sociological factors, etc.  I am looking
at
their cases in light of their perception in Brussels and their respective
chances at EU membership.  If anyone out there has any info. that might be
helpful or is interested in this subject please get back to me at:



thanks - Gabe Lazarus

Does anyone on this list have any ideas/thoughts/opinions why the
gypsy/roma/cigany  remained a people apart?  They've lived in Hungary for
hundreds of years and have never been accepted.  Why is this?

The last time I was in Hungary I was told that the gypsies were a 'work
avoiding people', (munka kerulo nep).  If I was a gypsy in Hungary, and I
had to endure Hungarians attitudes toward me, I too would avoid work.  What
would be the point in trying to get ahead in a society that hated me?

I'm interested in what you think of the situation.

N.B. -  If all you want to do is to spew venom, do it somewhere else!

Joe Szalai

Joe Szalai's question is a complex and valid one. I would like to respond to
it by citing a variety of my impressions:

As a Green Party candidate in 1990 in Somogy County in Hungary, two on the 32
villages in my district were populated  solely by Hungarian Romas. They were
hard working farmers, just like all other Hungarian farmers. In the forestry
works of Somogy, where the work is the hardest, as the soil is rock hard, all
the workers I have seen in planting young trees were Hungarian Romas. So the
claim, that gypsies do not work is absolutely false. I might also add, that
they are born environmentalists, 700 of the 1700 votes I received (out of a
total 32,000) was from Hungarian Romas.

The International Roma Federation (President: Dr. Rajko Djuric, UN Delegate:
Dr. Ian Hancock, VP: Sandor Balogh, fax: 512-295-4772) is the strongest
supporter of Hungarian national community rights in Romania. They have given
the total income from their yearly banquet to the RMDSZ (the party of the
Hungarians in Romania) and it was the Roma people who came to the aid of the
Hungarians of Marosvasarhely, when the Ceaucescu secret police organized a
Romanian nationalist attack on them. Apropos: I happen to be aa assosiate
member of the International Roma Federation and I published the following
letter in the NY Times on May 19, 1995 in their defense:

ROMANY NO MORE

In connection with Macedonia, you are correct in stating the importance of a
name, if the place is the Balkans.
             To the north of Macedonia, a similar struggle is beginning. The
nation involved has been called Rumania, then Roumania and now Romania. This
process was a consequence of the so-called Daco-Roman theory; which suggests
that Roman soldiers who occupied the region in the second and third centuries
are the ancestors of this nation, (while all others practices absinence.)
              Although a bit farcial, this seems harmless, and by now most
dictionaries and encyclopedias have switched their spelling from Rumania to
Romania. Now comes a new twist:
               The Gypsies have been called the Romany people since they left
India. Now, the "new-old" Government of Romania feels that Romany is too
close to its name and has DECREED THAT FROM NOW ON THE GYPSIES IN ROMANIA
CANNOT CALL THEMSELVES ROMANY, but should refer to themselves as Tzigane.
                This is why there is the saying in the Balkans: "You never
know what the past will bring!" One of the things the past is bringing to
Romania are monuments of Marshal Ion Antonescu, who just recently stopped
having been a Nazi puppet and turned into a patriot."

As this letter shows, we have been allies of the Romany people for a long
time and while there is prjejudice in Hungary too,  the image of the Romany
people is still the best in the region. The Romany people have their
representative in the Hungarian Parliament, you can visit the Romany Museum
at Bathory u. 126 (AND YOU SHOULD, because it is excellent!), the "old gypsy"
in Hungarian folk tunes is a favorite and it displays this old musician as a
representative of integrity and decency. An other folk tune, the "Daughter of
the gypsy chief (vajda)" also shows the respect of Hungarians for the
non-materialistic, romantic values and outlook of the gypsies.

Now, I do not want you to take me for an apologist for Hungarian prejudice
toward the Roma people. I am not one of those. I have experienced that narrow
minded hate and generalization (not always completely groundless). I have
felt the disapproval of my fellow passangers on the train going to Csepel,
 when I dared to smile at a beautiful young mother with an equally beautiful
child, whom they knew were gypsies (and I did not, nor would I have cared). I
have heard a relative of mine say: "No, I don't want to see that play,
because it is about gypsies." I have seen Margit Bollyky give an orange to a
3 year old girl in a Hungarian hospital, and heard the nurse reprimand her:
"Why did you do that, don't you see that she is gypsy?" Yes, I do know that
we have a long way to go. But I also know, that a few years back, it was
"common knowledge"  in Hungary that the Kuns steal, are lazy and not to be
trusted, yet today, they are the most respected "real Hungarians".

No, Joe, you have nothing to worry about. The Hungarians are just like the
Americans. We know how to assimilate people and if anybody can, we will be
the first to make the Roma people feel at home in Hungary. 
Bela Liptak

Joe Szalai's question is a complex and valid one. I would like to respond to
it by citing a variety of my impressions:

As a Green Party candidate in 1990 in Somogy County in Hungary, two on the 32
villages in my district were populated  solely by Hungarian Romas. They were
hard working farmers, just like all other Hungarian farmers. In the forestry
works of Somogy, where the work is the hardest, as the soil is rock hard, all
the workers I have seen in planting young trees were Hungarian Romas. So the
claim, that gypsies do not work is absolutely false. I might also add, that
they are born environmentalists, 700 of the 1700 votes I received (out of a
total 32,000) was from Hungarian Romas.

The International Roma Federation (President: Dr. Rajko Djuric, UN Delegate:
Dr. Ian Hancock, VP: Sandor Balogh, fax: 512-295-4772) is the strongest
supporter of Hungarian national community rights in Romania. They have given
the total income from their yearly banquet to the RMDSZ (the party of the
Hungarians in Romania) and it was the Roma people who came to the aid of the
Hungarians of Marosvasarhely, when the Ceaucescu secret police organized a
Romanian nationalist attack on them. Apropos: I happen to be aa assosiate
member of the International Roma Federation and I published the following
letter in the NY Times on May 19, 1995 in their defense:

ROMANY NO MORE

In connection with Macedonia, you are correct in stating the importance of a
name, if the place is the Balkans.
             To the north of Macedonia, a similar struggle is beginning. The
nation involved has been called Rumania, then Roumania and now Romania. This
process was a consequence of the so-called Daco-Roman theory; which suggests
that Roman soldiers who occupied the region in the second and third centuries
are the ancestors of this nation, (while all others practices absinence.)
              Although a bit farcial, this seems harmless, and by now most
dictionaries and encyclopedias have switched their spelling from Rumania to
Romania. Now comes a new twist:
               The Gypsies have been called the Romany people since they left
India. Now, the "new-old" Government of Romania feels that Romany is too
close to its name and has DECREED THAT FROM NOW ON THE GYPSIES IN ROMANIA
CANNOT CALL THEMSELVES ROMANY, but should refer to themselves as Tzigane.
                This is why there is the saying in the Balkans: "You never
know what the past will bring!" One of the things the past is bringing to
Romania are monuments of Marshal Ion Antonescu, who just recently stopped
having been a Nazi puppet and turned into a patriot."

As this letter shows, we have been allies of the Romany people for a long
time and while there is prjejudice in Hungary too,  the image of the Romany
people is still the best in the region. The Romany people have their
representative in the Hungarian Parliament, you can visit the Romany Museum
at Bathory u. 126 (AND YOU SHOULD, because it is excellent!), the "old gypsy"
in Hungarian folk tunes is a favorite and it displays this old musician as a
representative of integrity and decency. An other folk tune, the "Daughter of
the gypsy chief (vajda)" also shows the respect of Hungarians for the
non-materialistic, romantic values and outlook of the gypsies.

Now, I do not want you to take me for an apologist for Hungarian prejudice
toward the Roma people. I am not one of those. I have experienced that narrow
minded hate and generalization (not always completely groundless). I have
felt the disapproval of my fellow passangers on the train going to Csepel,
 when I dared to smile at a beautiful young mother with an equally beautiful
child, whom they knew were gypsies (and I did not, nor would I have cared). I
have heard a relative of mine say: "No, I don't want to see that play,
because it is about gypsies." I have seen Margit Bollyky give an orange to a
3 year old girl in a Hungarian hospital, and heard the nurse reprimand her:
"Why did you do that, don't you see that she is gypsy?" Yes, I do know that
we have a long way to go. But I also know, that a few years back, it was
"common knowledge"  in Hungary that the Kuns steal, are lazy and not to be
trusted, yet today, they are the most respected "real Hungarians".

No, Joe, you have nothing to worry about. The Hungarians are just like the
Americans. We know how to assimilate people and if anybody can, we will be
the first to make the Roma people feel at home in Hungary.
Bela Liptak

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Constantin Donea wrote:

> In article >, Louis
> Elteto > writes:
> >Romanian sensibilities are very strong in this connection. When the
> >latest spelling reform was implemented, the unrounded high back vowel,
> >which had been written with two different characters, i^ and a^, was to
> >be represented exclusively by i^; in effect, the a^ was eliminated. But
> >it was retained in the single root, Roma^nia, roma^n (actually:
> >reinstated), because, it was felt, romi^n would not properly show the
> >word's Roman etymology.
>
> The reform you mean was back in the 60s, and since 93 or so is no longer
> valid.
>
> Constantin Donea
>
Thank you for the update. I am admittedly way behind, and your remark is
not clear: do you mean that a^ has been brought back in all traditional
spellings, or that it has been given up, and that roma^n is, since 93 or
so, again spelled romi^n?

Louis J. Elteto
Portland State University

On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Constantin Donea wrote:

> In article >, Louis
> Elteto > writes:
>  To argue against the churches in Romania
> >is to argue against the interests of the Hungarian minority, and for the
> >interests of the unitary Romanian state.
> >Louis J. Elteto
>
> Why, why am I not surprised to see this thread was aimed against the unitary
> Romanian state? As a Romanian, I often let myself dreaming about the
> long awaited Romanian-Hungarian reconciliation; and then I see a new
> campaign directed by Liptak Bela against my country, and the only thing
> one might allow is that even the Chinese wall wouldn't be enought to
> separate these neighbouring countries.

I, too, wish for a Hungarian-Romanian reconciliation, but am not willing
to pay the price that every Romanian government or ruling party has so
far demanded for such reconciliation: that we disappear, with our past,
present, and future. _That_ is the meaning, for us, of the unitary
Romanian state, tiny minorities of well-meaning, enlightened and wise
Romanians notwithstanding. And please do not confuse your country with your
state.

Louis J. Elteto
Portland State University

I have not seen anyone thank you for your effort in translating the
Slovak language law into English in the interest of clearer
communication. It was a lot of work; please accept our mutual gratitude.

Louis J. Elteto
Portland State University

>
> No, Joe, you have nothing to worry about. The Hungarians are just like the
> Americans. We know how to assimilate people and if anybody can, we will be
> the first to make the Roma people feel at home in Hungary.
> Bela Liptak
>
Liptak ur, I only wonder if you could make a comparison between the
ability to assimilate a culture that may not want to be assimilated.
I wonder if there is not a connection between benign assimilation and
some of the things that you have been leading the protest against. I
appreciate your remarks that i ahve delted so let me admit, it is really
rare that I have ever heard a Hungarian say anything positive about
gypsies.

Pictures and daily life from Pecs make it all to clear that the gypsies
hve a long way to go before they are accepted by Magyarok, or perhaps the
better term, most Hungarians have a long way to go before gypsies are
accepted.

food for thought

DArren Purcell

Eva Durant is championing against giving back church property, specifically
schools, to the churches because

>Education shouldn't be controlled by the churches, only
>if that is the wish of the population now.  Even than, those
>with different/no beliefs should have an equal chance to
>find a non-religious local school.

I personally had two years of hell at a Catholic school and therefore I am
certainly not biased in favor of education in the churches' hands. However,
there is such important consideration as legality, the very foundation of a
democratic state. These properties were taken away from their rightful owners
illegally and today, after the restoration of "jogallam" [a state based on
legality], they should be returned to them. That is equally true of Catholic,
Orthodox, Protestant, and Jewish properties in Romania as well as in Hungary.

Eva Balogh

Constantin Donea writes:

>Why, why am I not surprised to see this thread was aimed against the unitary
>Romanian state? As a Romanian, I often let myself dreaming about the
>long awaited Romanian-Hungarian reconciliation

The idea of a unitary Romanian state is exactly the problem. This is an
old-fashioned idea which has no place in today's Europe. I advise all Eastern
Europeans to revise their ideas of "unitary states," and embrace instead an
open, pluralistic society, where different ethnic groups can live peacefully
without "unitary" pressures. Only then will they be ready to enter the
European Community.

Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh wrote:

>The idea of a unitary Romanian state is exactly the problem. This is an
>old-fashioned idea which has no place in today's Europe. I advise all Eastern
>Europeans to revise their ideas of "unitary states," and embrace instead an
>open, pluralistic society, where different ethnic groups can live peacefully
>without "unitary" pressures. Only then will they be ready to enter the
>European Community.
>
>Eva Balogh

East Europeans may find the revision difficult but I agree with your point.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Louis
Elteto > writes:
>Thank you for the update. I am admittedly way behind, and your remark is
>not clear: do you mean that a^ has been brought back in all traditional
>spellings, or that it has been given up, and that roma^n is, since 93 or
>so, again spelled romi^n?
>
>Louis J. Elteto

All i^ were replaced with a^ in all words, except for the words beginning
with i^ which are left unchanged. The verb "si^nt" is now written "sunt".
Actually, it is considered that i^ and a^ are shorter, respective longer
versions of the same sound.

Constantin Donea

Dear Colleagues,

Congratulations to the Hungarian Club of Colorado and to its president;
Attorney Jeno Megyesy for both obtaining the support of Congresswoman Pat
Schroeder and for  succeeding in getting Colorado's largest paper (400,000
copies), the Rocky Mountain News to take an EDITORIAL STAND against the
"brutal ban on foreign tongues in Slovakia." Now its up to the Hungarians of
the other 49 states to show, that they can also achieve what our small
community has done in Colorado.

As to our present campaign to obtain a commitment from the leadership of both
the Republican and Democratic candidates to put pressure on Romania, to date
I have received 51 copies of letters to president Clinton alone. I would like
to quote one from Laszlo Koszeghy: "I sent letters to the President, Vice
President, and all members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about
the situation in Slovaki and Romania, all while studying for finals."  We all
remember the sleepless nights before our finals and how hard it was to find
time for anything else. Laszlo did. You should too.

As you know, we are asking our political leaders to write to President
Iliescu of Romania. We ask our President, Senators,  Congressman to support
the demands of the demonstrators in Sepsiszentgyorgy (Sfantu Gheorghe). In
order to minimize the demand on your time in sending fax or E-Mail letters to
your political representatives,
please find attached a letter format, which can be "individualized", by
inserting your own data in the lines which are typed in capital letters. For
your information I included only a few E-mail and fax numbers. If you need
more (for your local representatives, senators or media) please send me a
note.


LIST OF ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-973-2600
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1249
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 404-565-6398


THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM LETTER:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.5 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too
am concerned about the oppression of Hungarian minorities in Romania. I am
particularly concerned about the new language law which would destroy the 500
years old Hungarian school system in Transylvania. I am concerned that the
church  property of the Hungarian National Community, which was confiscated
by the Communists, has still not been returned. It includes 1,041 schools, 28
boarding schools, 20 teachers residences, 16 hospitals and orphanages, 126
priests' houses and 70 convents.

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT,  SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) I would like to learn your
views on this matter and the steps you might take to help alleviate the
suffering of the Hungarian national community in Romania. There is no more
basic human right, than the right to speak one's mother tongue, to maintain
one's religion and culture and the civilized world should not allow that
basic right to be denied.

I know, that a letter from you to President Iliescu sent through the
Ambassador of Romania would help to change this situation.

Because the Hungarian-American voters would like to consider such issues as
this one in deciding which candidate to support in the 1996 elections, I
would like to ask for your permission to publish your response, if any, to
this letter, in the Hungarian-American press and media.

Respectfully yours,



YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

OUR HELP IS NEEDED NOW, NOT AFTER WE HAVE FINISHED OUR CHRISTMAS SHOPPING!
 Please ask your priests, pastors, rabbis, scout and society leaders
to have a letter of this nature signed by all parishioners or participants
and fax them to your representatives. (If you do not have the fax numbers, I
can provide them).

Best regards and Happy Holydays: Bela Liptak

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 13, 1995

Contact: Klary Hefty
Tel: (202) 296-9505

       THE HUNGARIAN HUMAN RIGHTS FOUNDATION TO RECEIVE AWARD
                         FROM THE HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT

The Hungarian Human Rights Foundation, an organizational member of the Hungaria
n
American Coalition, is among 20
organizations and individuals chosen by the Government of Hungary to receive it
s
"Minorities Award" ("Kisebbsegekert
Dij").

The Hungarian Human Rights Foundation (HHRF) was founded in New York in 1976 as
 the
Committee for Human Rights in
Rumania. The ad-hoc group of young Hungarian-Americans worked to alert the
political leadership and public opinion of the
West to the human rights violations suffered by the Hungarian minority in
 Rumania.
By 1984, with the support of Baron
Hans-Heinrich Thyssen Bornemisza, the group had become a private, non-profit
Foundation which conducts monitoring,
research and representational activities on human rights issues affecting the
 three
and one-half million Hungarians who live as
minorities in Central Europe. HHRF is headquartered in New York City, with
 offices
in Budapest and Kolozsvar (Cluj),
Rumania.

The award honors individuals and organizations in Hungary and abroad who have
performed "distinguished service through
their educational, cultural, religious, public advocacy and economic-developmen
t
activities on behalf of and among minority
communities," according to the Prime Minister's Office.

The award will be presented in Parliament on December 18, which the Government
 of
Hungary has declared as "Minorities
Day," to coincide with the date of Hungary's accession to the UN Declaration on
 the
Rights of Persons Belonging to National
or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities.

The award will be given to HHRF's four Directors -- Laszls Hamos, Emese
 Latksczy,
Zsolt Szekeres, and Baron
Thyssen Bornemisza -- and to Bulcsz Veress, one of the Committee's original
organizers.

Other organizations and individuals to be recognized on December 18 represent
 the
Roma, German, and Slovak minorities
within Hungary, and Hungarian minorities in Rumania, Slovakia, Voivodina and
Transcarpathia. Recipients also include Gabriel
Andreescu, President of Rumania's Helsinki Human Rights Committee; Joseph
Schweitzer, Hungary's Chief Rabbi; and
Duna Television, the satellite TV station which reaches out to
 Hungarian-speakers
on three continents. Several diplomatic,
cultural and humanitarian aid leaders will also receive the award.


All those who wish more information are encouraged to contact the Hungarian
American Coalition's Washington office at the
following address: 818 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 850, Washington, DC 20006,
USA; phone (202) 296-9505, fax
(202) 775-5175; and visit the Coalition's homepage in the World Wide Web:
http://www.hungary.com/hac/ .

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
December 13, 1995

Contact: Klary Hefty
Tel: (202) 296-9505

       THE HUNGARIAN HUMAN RIGHTS FOUNDATION TO RECEIVE AWARD
                         FROM THE HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT

The Hungarian Human Rights Foundation, an organizational member of the Hungaria
n

American Coalition, is among 20
organizations and individuals chosen by the Government of Hungary to receive it
s

"Minorities Award" ("Kisebbsegekert
Dij").

The Hungarian Human Rights Foundation (HHRF) was founded in New York in 1976 as
 the
Committee for Human Rights in
Rumania. The ad-hoc group of young Hungarian-Americans worked to alert the
political leadership and public opinion of the
West to the human rights violations suffered by the Hungarian minority in
 Rumania.
By 1984, with the support of Baron
Hans-Heinrich Thyssen Bornemisza, the group had become a private, non-profit
Foundation which conducts monitoring,
research and representational activities on human rights issues affecting the
 three
and one-half million Hungarians who live as
minorities in Central Europe. HHRF is headquartered in New York City, with
 offices
in Budapest and Kolozsvar (Cluj),
Rumania.

The award honors individuals and organizations in Hungary and abroad who have
performed "distinguished service through
their educational, cultural, religious, public advocacy and economic-developmen
t

activities on behalf of and among minority
communities," according to the Prime Minister's Office.

The award will be presented in Parliament on December 18, which the Government
 of
Hungary has declared as "Minorities
Day," to coincide with the date of Hungary's accession to the UN Declaration on
 the
Rights of Persons Belonging to National
or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities.

The award will be given to HHRF's four Directors -- Laszls Hamos, Emese
 Latksczy,
Zsolt Szekeres, and Baron
Thyssen Bornemisza -- and to Bulcsz Veress, one of the Committee's original
organizers.

Other organizations and individuals to be recognized on December 18 represent
 the
Roma, German, and Slovak minorities
within Hungary, and Hungarian minorities in Rumania, Slovakia, Voivodina and
Transcarpathia. Recipients also include Gabriel
Andreescu, President of Rumania's Helsinki Human Rights Committee; Joseph
Schweitzer, Hungary's Chief Rabbi; and
Duna Television, the satellite TV station which reaches out to
 Hungarian-speakers
on three continents. Several diplomatic,
cultural and humanitarian aid leaders will also receive the award.


All those who wish more information are encouraged to contact the Hungarian
American Coalition's Washington office at the
following address: 818 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 850, Washington, DC 20006,

USA; phone (202) 296-9505, fax
(202) 775-5175; and visit the Coalition's homepage in the World Wide Web:
http://www.hungary.com/hac/ .

In article >, Louis
Elteto > writes:
 And please do not confuse your country with your
>state.
>
>Louis J. Elteto

I'm not sure I can follow; what's the difference between my country and
my state?

Constantin Donea

Bravo and thanks to Eva Balogh for a sensible and humane restatement of
the current requirements for statehood in a civilized Europe.  Regrettably,
none of the East European states seems to come close to meeting her stand-
ards, and, IMHO, none will in this millenium.

But perhaps we ought to make a distinction between the *form* of the state
and the nature of citizenship.  Most civilized states, including all Euro-
pean ones except Germany, are unitary in form.  That is, their constitu-
tions place all constitutional power in the hands of a central government.
Of course, lower levels of government exist and function, sometimes with
considerable autonomy, but they do so at the discretion of the central au-
thorities and generally under their complete financial control.  Germany
and the United States are exceptions, being federal in character, which
means that their "lower" levels of government (states and *La"nder, res-
pectively) have a constitutionally guaranteed autonomus existence and func-
tioning, including wide financial independence in the case of the former.

What Eva may have in mind is the nature of citizenship, and two models
have presented themselves, historically termed the "French" and the "Ger-
man".  The former, in France and the U.S., is both formallhy color- and
ethnicity-blind.  In Napoleon's famous formulation on liberating the Jews,
"To the Jews as individuals, everything, to the Jews as a group, nothing."
Until recently, this formulation applied in the U.S., as well.  The German
model, by contrast, sees the nation in explicitly unitary ethnic terms, re-
flected in the right-wing German formulation of "Germany for the *Germans*"
(where "Germans" means explicitly ethnic Germans, *echte Deutsche*) and
Chancellor Kohl's infamous claim that "Germany is not a country of immigra-
tion."

We Hungarians can't have it both ways, either in Hungary or in Romania.  Ei-
ther we opt, and urge, as Eva seems to do, the Romanian government to adopt
the French model of individual citizenship, or we continue to hold to the
German model, and claim special rights, not for Hungarians as *individual
citizens* of a multi-ethnci Romanian state, but for "Hungarians" as an eth-
nic group, including regional territorial autonomy.  To my knowledge, with
the partial exceptions of the U.K. and Spain, no civilized country makes
provision for such ethnically-based regional autonomy.  (Oh, yes, the U.s.
is also an exception as concerns officially-recognized Indian tribes.)

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer choice.  Eva, I believe, recommends the
civilized alternative.  The other road leads straight to the gas chambers
and the ovens.

Udv.
Be'la

I have received information on a 2-4 week program at the University of
Devrecen which provides foreigners with a basic grasp of the Hungarian
language as well as some information on Hungarian culture and history.

Does anyone have experience with this course?  Is it for serious
students or could it be the basis for an Hungarian emersion program?

Are you aware of any other programs [for senior citizens] which
include a basic orientation into Hungary, its language and culture?

W. Batkay wrote:

>To my knowledge, with
>the partial exceptions of the U.K. and Spain, no civilized country makes
>provision for such ethnically-based regional autonomy.

Then Quebec dosen't exist or else Canada is not a civilized country. ;-)

Joe Szalai