Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: R.I.P. Budapest Expo (Was: Re: Michael Jackson in B (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Media watch (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
3 A Visit to the Library (mind)  150 sor     (cikkei)
4 NG (national Guard & Racial relationship) (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
5 apology... sig (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
6 two termini (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
7 Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
8 Expo (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
10 Repost of call for votes soc.culture.russia(n) (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Media watch (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: R.I.P. Budapest Expo (Was: Re: Michael Jackson in B (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
17 Post-Post-Communist Hungary (Re: A Visit to the Library (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: R.I.P. Budapest Expo (Was: Re: Michael Jackson in B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

> I have no references on the economics of such grand events, but I recall that
> most of them proved a heavy drain on government budgets.  The Brisbane EXPO
> in 1987 was one of the apparently few that broke even without government
> subsidies (i.e., the organizers were able to pay back the government's seed
> money from receipts of the event and subsequent sale of facilities and real
> estate), while the Canadians are still paying for their EXPO and Olympics
> that proved a disaster financially.

    A small correction here, George.  Expo in Montreal was a huge
success and made a LOT of money.  It was well planned to be an
efficiently run event and a lot of the pavilions put up by other
countries were donated to Montreal after it was over, instead of being
taken down and shipped away as they usually are.  In fact, the entire
island of St.Helen's has been turned into a giant recreational park
because of all the installations -- Montreal benefitted from foreign
investment as well as the tourist trade.
 The Olympics, on the other had, were indeed an unmitigated disaster
and taxpayers in Canada, Quebec, but most particularly municipalities
around Montreal are STILL paying of that debt after nearly 20 years.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
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  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534
+ - Re: Media watch (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh to Kornai:

> First of all, I would not draw far-reaching conclusions about Lajos Fu2r's
> state of mind:

And indeed you shouldn't.  Considering that the piece came from "Juszt
Lacika", one of the most annoying TV personalities in Hungary, I would
even question his characterization of Fur as being depressed.

Joe Pannon
+ - A Visit to the Library (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Actually, I didn't visit the library. I went and bought a copy of *The New
York Review of Books* in order to read Istvan Deak's article
"Post-Post-Communist Hungary." First of all, let me mention that the article
was finished by Deak on July 14; i.e., before the government in summarily
fashion appointed the new media chiefs; before they changed the law on mayors
serving simultaneously as members of parliament; before Horn made
contradictory statements about NATO and the European Union--topics we have
been discussing on this list. Therefore, there is absolutely no discussion of
any of these matters in the article. Second, Deak's assessment of Hungarian
politics is not terribly different from that of those (Kornai, Fencsik,
Balogh) who were supposed to be guilty of "semi-informed Horn and media
bashing." (In case, Kertesz meant only Balogh as guilty of these sins, I can
assure you that Deak's and Balogh's politics are not very far apart.)

Let me quote a few passages from Deak. The article begins by describing a
train ride from Vienna to Budapest and the author compares the easy-going
checking of passports today with the unpleasant bordercrossings of the past.
"Watching him [a single policeman], I could not help wondering whether,
following the electoral victory of the Socialist Party--a party largely made
up of former Communists--he would not again become more vigilant." So, Deak,
like so many of us was/is somewhat worried about the future. After some
background material Deak goes on: "The election results raise further
questions: Why did the Socialists win? They were very careful not to announce
any controversial programs before the elections, and they nominated many
unknown candidates who had no past records that would be held against them;
 but they had an unexpected popularity that is still hard to explain. . . .
Finally, how important is it that most of the Socialist leaders were once
functionaries of the Communist Party or the Young Communists? Is it perhaps
more significant that many of them had a part in liberalizing the country
during the last decade or so of the Kadar regime, and that today they
officially advocate parliamentary democracy, continuing privatization, a
tight monetary policy, and Hungary's joining both NATO and the European
Union?" This is a question Deak does not answer in the rest of the article.

Deak continues: "Hungarians tend to agree among themselves that the
conservative governing coalition of recent years brought disaster upon
itself, and that, by voting Socialist, voters chose a party that appeared to
be farthest away from the Conservatives and their coalition partners." Deak
then talks about the rise of the right-wingers (Csurka) within the MDF and
their newly found political philosophy of "Hungarian" family and ethnic
values. Then continues: "Moreover, the right-wingers continued, the liberal
dissidents had always acted with the tacit encouragement of their Communist
elders, and the outspoken opposition of Konrad and other intellectuals had
been nothing but an attempt on the part of the Jewish social and political
elite in Hungary to hold on to its influence following the inevitable
collapse of communism. No doubt, the saner leaders of the Conservtives did
not accept this line of argument, which was made most vocally by the clever
playwright and newly minted right-wing ideologue Istvan Csurka. But Csurka
had many followers in the party. The Conservative leaders feared that by
expelling Csurka and his associates under left-wing pressure they would fall
into the trap that the progressive non-Communists of the late 1940s fell
into." Here he explains about Rakosi's "salami tactics." "Therefore, the
Conservative leaders hesitated for a long time before getting rid of the
extremists; but by then the Conservatives had acquired a not entirely
justified reputation of populist demagogy and anti-Semitism.
"One of the great surprises of the elections in May was the debacle of the
far right, symbolized but certainly not represented exclusively by Istvan
Csurka. In recent years, the Western, and especially the American, press had
reported on little else about Hungary except the doings of the far right and
the growth of popular anti-Semitism. . . . By his reluctance to take a firm
position against the far right in his party, Prime Minister Jozsef Antall did
a disservice to himself and his cause. As the recent elections have shown,
the Hungarian public has little patience for any kind of extremism. Many
people also became irritated by the Conservatives' tendency to call their
opposition `enemies of the nation' and `traitors,' a practice the party
inherited from its totalitarian predecessor. Both Antall and commentators in
the American press were wrong to hold the Hungarian public in such low
regard. Remembering the popular anti-Semitism of the prewar years and the
indifference or even hostility of a large part of the public toward the Jews
during the Hungarian Holocaust in 1944, Antall, who was personally not an
anti-Semite, apparently feared he would become unpopular if he were to
criticize the anti-Semites in his party. What he, his party, and Western
commentators failed to realize, however, was the changes brought about by
forty years of Communist rule. If nothing else, it had taught the public to
think mainly of its own economic interest. . . .
"The governing coalition lost the elections in May because of the public's
dissatisfaction with its antiquated rhetoric and its general antipathy to
demands for modernizing Hungarian life. . . .
Deak continues with an analysis of the current economic situation, poverty of
certain people, the homeless, the Gypsy question, education, demographic
data, culture.
"While the Socialist-Liberal coalition faces particularly difficult problems
of budget and trade deficit, foreign debts, agriculture, and welfare, there
is a sense that the county can now move forward. The voters gave the
Socialists an absolute majority in parliament mostly because of the
impression they created through their newspaper articles and parliamentary
criticisms, of professionalism and expertise and because of nostalgia for the
job security, the extensive welfare system, and less inflated prices of the
defunct Kadar era. . . .
"The Socialists are divided on many issues. The left wing is supported by
older Party functionaries, and the Communist Party faithful who still hold
power in the state and trade union bureaucracies. They feel that the
electoral victory was their doing, and they may find a natural leader in
Sandor Nagy, a labor boss from the days of compulsory trade unionism. Gyula
Horn . . . dominates the center of the party. . . . A liberal or moderate
wing tends to follow the lead of Laszlo Bekesi, the new minister of finance
(he was Communist Hungary's last minister of finance in 1989 and 1990), whose
austerity program frightens even some Liberals.
"The Liberals are somewhat less fragmented, although a few founding members
will probably drop out of the party so as to avoid collaborating with the
former Communists. Since 1988 the Liberals have changed from an amateurish
movement of mainly Jewish Budapest intellectuals to a well-financed and
well-organized party supported by young entrepreneurs, petty bourgeois,
farmers, and workers, particularly from the more prosperous regions near the
Austrian border. . . .
"The Conservatives hoped . . . to be able to try some of the police and
military commanders who were responsible for shooting innocent people during
and after the revolution. But nothing has come of these plans, and it is more
than likely that the new regime will not continue the investigations.
"It will on the other hand probably try to assert control over state-owned
radio and television. . . . Now the 129 fired employees will probably be
called back, and some of the right-wing ideologues who sponsored the purge
have already been purged themselves. In the early days of the Antall regime,
radio and television stations maintained some genuine independence even
though the government and the political parties had the power to control
them. Whether the stations can regain their real independence now is a large
question. . . .
"One doesn't know how the Socialists will behave during the next four years.
The anxious find ample proof that the old arrogance of the Communist
functionaries is reappearing, and cite such cases as that of a former
Communist law professor who said to a candidate, a spokesman for the Young
Democrats: `Do not imagine that now you will be able to pass your bar exam,'
or of the office supervisor, an old Communist bureaucrat, who wrote on the
vacation application of an employee who was involved in Conservative
politics: `I do not authorize her travel abroad.' Others argue that all the
political parties are being transformed and the Socialists are likely to
divide into Social Democrats and a left wing whose members might join other
radicals on the left. It seems to me important that Liberals in the political
center maintain their strength, while favoring protection of individual
rights and resistance to the re-imposition of state controls; for Hungary
needs a strong Liberay Party as much as the Western European countries do, if
not more so.
"Hungary has a spirited national culture and it may be on the way to having a
resilient civil society. The political decline of the intellectuals is
another sign of a more normal public life. The people have learned, or rather
have re-learned, to play the parliamentary game on the basis of the
centuries' old customs of a socially and economically backward society which
has, nevertheless, a well-developed and self-conscious political class. In
the May election, for the first time since 1905, the Hungarian people were
able to vote an already freely elected government out of office. I have the
impression that they have elected a competent regime in which the forces of
democracy have a good chance."

Deak's assessment of the past four years is pretty much the same as mine. He
may be even right, in the long run, about his optimistic assessment of the
future. But my feeling is that there will be a few mistakes, similar to the
appointment of the media chiefs, in between. Eva Balogh

P.S. I was pleased to see that the government began discussion of the media
+ - NG (national Guard & Racial relationship) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From:    paul >
>>do you have any better idea than those silly
>Dido, Papa Smurf.  The US National Guard is a tremendously valuable
>organization.  They have expertise in many support an supply
>fields, such as large scale transport of material (food, medicine,
>shelter, mobile hospitals, consctruction equipment, sato2bi, sato2bi),
>and have many times come to the aid of American civilians (Florida
>huricane, midwest flood), and supported the regular US army (Desert
>Storm, Somalia).  The US army actually counts on the Guard in case of
>conflict and emergency, since the army does not maintain the quantity
>of support units it expects to use when needed.  They actually count
>on the preparedness of the Guard, and for the Guard to get involved.
>They are not a "silly" organization, and they do not have "silly"
Dear Paul;
    I assumed you misunderstood my answer about the NG...  My point in
that previous post was that the Guard is exactly an important part of
our domestic security and I could never said that their excercises are
'silly' cause I do participate in those excercises in the USAR!
I was been sacarstic in my last sentence cause someone mention that
our exercises were 'silly'..  I believe he apologize for the remark
>>grounds of his parents, who do not practice. We send him to a Quaker school
>I have read about a problem American Jews are having, in that many Jews are
>marrying non-Jews.  Since the American Jewsih population is small to
>begin with, the results are serious.  I think I heard that something like
>30% of Jews marry non-Jews, and the children are raised in neither faith.
>Do you see this as a problem?  What do you think abouth the prospect of
>the disappearance of American Jews due to this development?
 I don't see this as a problem...  My mother has been raised as a roman
Catholic 40 years later she decided to join the Protestant... It's all
a matter of choice!  Everyone has freedom to choose his/her religion
no matter what you might try to bring a child into s/he can still decide
for his/herself later on in life!
 Yes, indeed America is a melting pot and got to be in some aspect.  The
American Jews will not 'disapear' just cause they decided to marrry
outside their religion.  It's like saying they will be no more white
if 30% marries blacks or vice-versa...  IMHO, those statements can only
be from a conservative point of view.  I believe life will be a better
place through interaction/integration rather then exclusion\conservation
through one idealogy.
PS> Thanks to all of you that had responded to my first post concerning
racial relationship...  I could not answered sooner cause of school
work.  BTW.. Paul I'm still a Roman Catholic:) Take care and have a good

  o/    \  /    \ /     /      \o   |Life is made up of UPs and DOWNs
 /#      ##o     #     o##      #\  |You just have to know how to mana-
 / \    /  \    /o\    / |\    / \  |ge them... BTW, watch for the wall!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
!!!!!  It's when things seem worst that you must not quit  !!!!!!!!
:-)8 *   <---  just my favorite smiley (there is only one like it..)
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+ - apology... sig (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sorry folks I forgot to take off my sigs..  sorry for the inconvenience
it might cause some of you.
+ - two termini (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete writes:

> we ended up with your
> not showing the alleged contradictions in his "utterancr than
> in your own interpretations), did you ;-(?!

Are we going to have to vote on that one, too?  :-)

I remember we also ended with a invitation to you to respond to the
Fencsik/Kornai evaluation.

+ - Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

BUDAPEST, Hungary (Reuter) - Michael Jackson will shoot a
video clip in Budapest, which will feature the 35-year-old pop
star as a freedom fighter who helps rid formerly Communist
eastern Europe of Soviet troops, a Hungarian newspaper reported
         The daily Nepszava newspaper said Jackson would arrive in
Hungary Friday to shoot the video for a song that will be
released in the fall.
         Idiko Dudas, spokeswoman for one of Budapest's luxury
hotels, told Reuters Jackson had reserved its presidential
         The song would feature Jackson arriving in an east European
capital, where he would chase away Soviet troops. The grateful
populace would then raise a monument to him, the paper said.
         Original plans called for a crew to make the video in
Budapest without Jackson, whose image was to be copied later in
a process called blueboxing.
         Last Friday, however, Jackson decided he would come to
         It was unclear if the star would be accompanied by his wife,
Lisa Marie Presley. Jackson married Presley, the daughter of
rock legend Elvis Presley, in May.
         Sections of Budapest, including a downtown bridge and a main
thoroughfare, will be cordoned off over the weekend for the
video shoot, Budapest police spokesman Tamas Pohl said.
         Dudas did not know how long the singer would stay at the
Grand Hotel. Nepszava said he would leave Sunday.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

        Is this ridiculous or what?
+ - Expo (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have never felt strongly about the Expo either way. I had started
to have my doubts about its viability though when Vienna had pulled out
of the partnership. I agree with those who express concern from the
economic point of view. All the reports indicate that although Hungary's
economy shows some improvement, the Expo will need more help from the
Government than the economy can provide at this time. It is true that
the Expo would (or may) be a showcase to the rest of the world, but at
what cost to the national economy. Perhaps it is a good idea to give
it up now, before more money has been spent on it.

   On the other hand, I fail to see why Horn is being blamed for any-
thing in connection of the Expo. He is the PM, and part of the PM's
job is to propose acceptance or rejection of programs. This is all
he did. And he has expresse his hope that Parliament will discuss
the question. Isn't this how it supposed to be? Unless we will blame
him for doing his job, of course, I dont see anything wrong with his
announcements. If his *sin* is that he is on the wrong side of the
track, please indicate in your post that this is the origin of your

   There is, however, a more important question, to me, how rejection
of the Expo will influence plans for the year-long celebration in 1996
in connection of the 1100th anniversary. Does anybody have any info.
on that?

   All this may not help you at all, Jan, but this is how I see this


*  *                   Amos,..."not the famous"                 *  *
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+ - Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Scott Mincey writes:

>          Sections of Budapest, including a downtown bridge and a main
> thoroughfare, will be cordoned off over the weekend for the
> video shoot, Budapest police spokesman Tamas Pohl said.
>         Is this ridiculous or what?

Oh, I don't know, I assume the city collects some fat fees for all of this, no?

+ - Repost of call for votes soc.culture.russia(n) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From soc.culture.soviet Tue Aug  2 22:27:27 1994
From:  (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
Subject: POLL: soc.culture.russia(n)
Followup-To: poster
Date: 2 Aug 1994 22:15:05 GMT
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Lines: 77
Message-ID: >
Reply-To:  (Ron Dippold Voting Alias)
NNTP-Posting-Host: happy-e.qualcomm.com
Xref: ukma news.groups:111122 soc.culture.soviet:65696 soc.culture.europe:35124
soc.culture.baltics:7161 soc.culture.ukrainian:5836

                   FIRST CALL FOR RESPONSES (of 2)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 17 August 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact .  For questions about the
proposed group contact Peter Vorobieff >


The objective of this straw poll is to determine the public opinion
on the better name for the newsgroup dedicated to Russia - Republic
of Russia, Russian Empire, Rus', its people, culture, environment
and Russian language.

The controversy over the name is not as futile as it may seem.

"Russian" implies connection with the Russian language and, to some extent,
with the geographical location - Russian literature (no matter if written
by Babel or Tolstoi), Russian art (Shishkin or Ge - who cares?), Russian

"Russia" obviously carries more meanings related to statehood, politics,
relationships with neighbors and to all the nationalities living in


It is known that unmoderated groups are democratic. It is also known
that moderated groups do not suffer from megaspams, roboposting,
multiple crossposts and other diseases that plague unmoderated groups.

Soc.culture.soviet, a part of the traffic of which soc.culture.russia(n)
is likely to take, is heavily infested with all the possible sicknesses
leading to high noise level. This is why some people suggest that the
new group must be moderated. Other people violently oppose the idea of
moderation because they deem it incompatible with freedom of speech.
The idea of combining both unmoderated and moderated forums may seem
the best, however, it's two groups to be created instead of one...


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Place a YES in the brackets ([ YES ]) before ONE of these choices.

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
[         ]  soc.culture.russian(unmoderated)
[         ]  soc.culture.russian(moderated)
[         ]  soc.culture.russian(both moderated and unmoderated groups)
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Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
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It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

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+ - Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 5 Aug 1994 13:20:42 -0400 Scott_Mincey said:
>         BUDAPEST, Hungary (Reuter) - Michael Jackson will shoot a
>video clip in Budapest, which will feature the 35-year-old pop
>star as a freedom fighter who helps rid formerly Communist
>eastern Europe of Soviet troops, a Hungarian newspaper reported
>        Is this ridiculous or what?

--I find it terribly embarassing that a so-called "entertainer"
would trivialize Hungary's experience under Soviet domination.
I am surprised that the government is cooperating.  It is beyond
ridiculous.  It is scandalous.  Michael Jackson should be ashamed.

Charles Atherton
+ - Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>          BUDAPEST, Hungary (Reuter) - Michael Jackson will shoot a
> video clip in Budapest, which will feature the 35-year-old pop
> star as a freedom fighter who helps rid formerly Communist
> eastern Europe of Soviet troops, a Hungarian newspaper reported
> Wednesday.

Well, I just saw a short TV news report from Budapest as Michael and
his new wife were getting off their private plane and into a limo.
There didn't seem to be any passport or customs inspection.
Now that's what I call a royal treatment! ;-)

Well, money still talks, doesn't it?

+ - Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


> --I find it terribly embarassing that a so-called "entertainer"
> would trivialize Hungary's experience under Soviet domination.
> I am surprised that the government is cooperating.  It is beyond
> ridiculous.  It is scandalous.  Michael Jackson should be ashamed.

Your concern is appreciated, but consider this:
Most Jackson fans don't have the foggiest where Hungary is or about her
struggle under the yoke of Communism.  This may be the only way to
get to those kids and inform them about it.  So on balance I can see it
as a positive for Hungary's image.

Maybe Jackson got the idea from seeing those recent GE commercials about
Hungary which I also found very positive.

+ - Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Well, money still talks, doesn't it?

Yes, but all it says to me is, "Goodbye"

+ - Re: Media watch (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai writes:  (parts deleted)

> To my mind, ordinary transition of power is not party interest: it is
> clearly national interest. Boross made a big point of emphasizing this
> committed himself and his government to exactly what Fu2r is *not* doing.

I am with Andras on the basic issue of transition. Playing hurt feelings or
other personal problems HAS to be secondary to the cause of the nation.
During the past US transition some real problems suffered for similar
reasons, at least in one dept that I am periodically involved with. It took
months to straighten out the mess created by the personality issues fraught
transition action.
One should be grown up enough to accept that at some future time their
current subordinates may be their equals or their bosses. It is a fact of
life. I thought the gesture of taking the future foreign minister to Warsaw
was an exemplary action, apparently it did not work the same way in all
The above comment is for the transition issue itself, and not necesserily
for the media coverage. I do not generally read the Hungarian media.

+ - Re: R.I.P. Budapest Expo (Was: Re: Michael Jackson in B (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think Hungary, at this time, needed the EXPO like a hole in the head. The
only thing I could justify from the activity related to the EXPO
was contacting the Pentagon for assistance in unexploded bomb location for
the area of the EXPO, although I wonder why it should not have been
expanded to other places also.
I am not a city planner but the infrastructure prioritization should not be
driven by specific agendas but the other way around.

+ - Post-Post-Communist Hungary (Re: A Visit to the Library (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Eva,

>  [...] Horn made contradictory statements about NATO and the European
> Union--topics we have been discussing on this list.
 Uhm, "discussing" is used a bit broadly here - we ended up with your
not showing the alleged contradictions in his "utterancr than
in your own interpretations), did you ;-(?!

-- Zoli "don't believe every email header you see"