E'n nemre'g ko:lto:ztem Vancouver-be (WA) s azt szeretne'm tudni 
hogy van e valami magyar egyesu:let Portlandban, s ha igen, hogy 
lehet velu:k felvenni a kapcsolatot.

ko:sz,
	Ja'nos

I have a stamp collection and am trying to figure out what country 
"Magyar" is. I can't find it in my book. Can you help?

Many thanks.

Vera
Virginia USA

Jan Hlavacek wrote:
> 
> On 20 Aug 1996 05:12:19 GMT, Peter k Chong > wrote:
> >Dear Mr. Hakel
> >
> >Thanks for the presentation of the Slovak point of view and I guess its
> >only fairness that I must acknowledge it. After all, I suppose it
> >would help the Magyar to survive in Slovakia (on paper that is) if they
> >have a good understanding of Slovak. However, the sources which said that
> >Prime Minister Meciar blamed the Magyar minority for Slovak economic
> >problems were from the Encylcopedia Britannica 1994 Year Book - a fairly
> >credible source in the opinion of many.
> >
> >I also question why you are genuinely perpexled at why Budapest would be
> >concerned about its Magyar minority in Slovakia... Would it not make it
> >sense, say if the Slovaks of Hungary (there aren't a lot of them mind
> >you) were being hypothetically mistreated by their Magyar masters (God
> >forbid!) and Bratislava pay attention to their hypothetical mistreatment?
> >I think it makes perfect sense for a home country to be concerned about
> >an ethnically-related minority (In this case Hungarian - Slovaks) or
> >whenever some of its citizens or kindred people are endangered or
> >whatever in a foreign country. For instance, in Canada (my home country)
> >whenever there is a plane crash or disaster in a foreign land, the
> >Canadian newscasters (regardless of channel) make mention of not only the
> >total casualties but also whether Canadians were injured/killed or
> >involved in the incident/disaster. I am sure the Americans do the same as
> >well as every other nation in this world including Slovakia.
> 
> Of course, every country cares about their CITIZENS! It has absolutely
> nothing to do with the slovak minority in Hungary and Hungarian
> minority in Slovakia.
> 
> >
> >Look at Israel! Remember in 1990 about the Israeli airlift of thousands
> >of Jews out of Ethiopia? They were just concerned about the safety of
> 
> OK, if a country is concerned about well being of somebody in another
> country, they can do what israelis did.
> 
> >their relations and kindred! Is that wrong or even strange? Anyway with
> >any country in the world, there is a big difference between de jure and
> >de facto. By law according to the Slovak constitution (I'm indirectly
> >quoting you), the Hungarian minority is alloted the same rights as the
> >Slovak majority. Fine, but in practice the Magyars are treated
> >differently. Let's face it! In the U.S. by law all citizens regardless of
> >sex, race, creed, whatever are treated equally but why the hell in
> >practice is there such stupid things like affirmative action (where
> >blacks are allowed through this law to gain easier access to jobs whereas
> >the whites are subtly discouraged by being given tougher entrance tests
> >and the like?) Perhaps Count István Szechényi (a legnagyobb magyar - the
> >greastest Hungarian) said it best when he said on Magyarization -
> >
> >The twirl of the tongue is never the beat of the heart. If one speaks
> >Magyar it does not mean he is Magyar in spirit
> >
> 
> ???????? )):-o
> 
> >The Slovak government twirls it tongue stating everyone is treated
> >equally but at heart they have other things in mind.
> >
> 
> Agreement!
> 
> >Sorry about bursting your bubble, but I must admit that some of your
> >material was quite shocking for me (a Hungarophile) to read!
> >
> 
> I don't know which post are you talking about, but in general, Peter
> Hakel doesn't appear to me as a supporter of current slovak
> government. I just thing you are barking at a wrong tree here.
> 
> >Regards
> >
> >Peter Chong
> >
> >
> >
> 
> lahvak
> --
> Jan Hlav\'{a}\v{c}ek
> 
> www: http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~lahvak
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
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> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto: do not f
orward me any mail

Dear Luminita (?)

I hope I got that right! Be myself eh? Well, I admit I did ask about 
Romanian origins before hand, the only problem was it took awhile before 
someone gave me a serious answer. (I kept getting things typed in 
Romanian sent to me by somone named Jane Doe) The serious answers I got 
were what I expected, i.e. standard Daco-Roman stuff. The theory I pulled 
out came from some Hungarian-inspired sources (We can see the bias) but 
then again the Romanian sources all say Daco-Roman. (Let's face it, 
there's gonna be some bias in this too.) I have been taught to be 
somewhat sceptical on reading history, as the author can subtly twist the 
truth to his/her preference. Here's what I believe to be the truth on 
Hungarians and Romanians

1. The Hungarians are a Caucasian-Iranian people who are linguistically 
related to the Finns, Estonians, Turkic peoples, Mongols, Manchus and 
Sumerians. The linguistic and in some cases cultural proof is there.
2. The Romanians are a Romance people related to the Romans in speech and 
to a lesser degree in terms of cultural and ethnogenesis (Their langauge 
is based on Latin) and are sometimes known as Vlachs. Again the 
Romanian-Latin correspondances are there along with some cultural proofs.
3. The Hungarians. however as most people state (wrongly) are mainly 
Finno-Ugric in origin and conquered the Carpathian Basin in 896 AD 
subjugating the local Slavs, Germans and Roman-related peoples. 
4. The above is questionable due to cultural and linguistic proofs with 
Hungarians and Sumerians (this is a long story) and it is quite probable 
that many of us are mouthing a stupid and half-truthed Habsburg-inspired 
theory designed to portray Hungarians as relatives of primitive and 
uncivilized folk. (that is to say that Hungarians are the blood/cultural 
and linguistic relatives of the Mongoloid-Ugric Khanty and Mansi tribes 
of Siberia) 
5. The Vlachs are known to have lived south of the Danube until about the 
11-13th centuries where they began migrating to modern-day Wallachia and 
Transylvania.
The predominating school of thought places Romanian origins with the 
Daco-Romanian belief. Another school believes that the Vlachs were 
newcomers to modern-day Romania. However, the Vlachs themselves were 
descendants of a Romanized Illyrian tribe that originally started out 
around Albania and Montenegro. Incidentally, this historical proximity 
could explain why Romanian shows a rather close relationship to Albanian 
whereas many other IE langauges do not.
6. The first reference of a Wallachian settlement in Transylvania was in 
1222.   

I won't go any further as I'm afraid of stirring things up more than I 
already have. 

With regards to my girlfriend, she is Hungarian. I originally wasn't this 
involved in Hungarian culture/affairs but being curious of her background 
I just did some reading of Hungarian history and culture. It was only 
after I ran across the Hungarian-Sumerian-Finno-Ugric and 
Hungarian-Romanian controversies that I really began getting myself 
involved. By now this was independant of her influence (sounds lame but 
true). This lead me to all sorts of questions regarding Hungarian history 
and I have found some supporters on and off the net along with the 
skeptics. (I guess it can be avoided) She just regards my 
obsession/idéefixe with amusement and really doesn't mind. Maybe I can 
sound chauvanistic here (you're not the first one to speak up) but I 
being young, raw, naive and sometimes downright stupid, I'm not too 
surprised. 

C'est la vie

Regards

Peter Chong

Well Mr. Hakel, your points in regards to my posting were interesting. 
I wrote them in reaction to a posting by Mr Chong. But since you wrote,
here's a reply:

> And the communists used to receive 99.9% of the vote.<
Well few can argue that the Hungarians were fanatical about record
keeping - even when it was to their disadvantage, i.e Trianon awards. 
That census makes sense and it very probably correct.  

>Consequences of lost wars are always unfortunate for anybody.<
(unless you lose to the US... :-))
>As I have written on the Slovak list, the presence of Hungarians 
in Central Europe as well as the border between Slovakia and Hungary are
results of lost wars. You seem to have a problem accepting that, which
is
the main reason of the tension between our countries.<

So, are you saying, then that the only way to resolve the issue is
through war?  Slovaks and Hungarians lived together for over a thousand
years without incident; and Slovaks maintained and developed their
culture and identity as well as literature and art.  Why now must
Hugarians be faced with a language law the seriousness of which you
haven't any idea of - speak with some who have returned from Slovakia,
especially fellow Slovaks who see the fear of Hungarian shop keepers in
Pozsony (Bratislava) and elsewhere of speaking Hungarian.

The main reason of tension between "our two countries" is not so much
borders, but treatment of Hungarians.  Speak to any average Hungarian in
Hungary and he will say the main focus should be opening borders and
protecting human rights.  The problem is, Slovakia is only 70 years old
and is only now struggling with its nationalism and establishing its
identity.  Hungarians can hope for better treatment, but I dont think
they will survive that long. They are caught up in the politics.

>Living in the past will not solve it. We have long ago accepted Hungarians as 
our
neighbors even though they originally came as conquerors. I think it is
time for you to accept that Slovaks have a right to have their own
country
whose borders were drawn some 70 years ago. Let's move on.<

Fine let's move on, but on even terms.  How about acknowledging the
terrible unfairness of the border revisions and admit how lucky Slovakia
was.  Its a pretty good deal to be half the population and get all the
territory.  No objective analysis can justify the award given to
Czechoslovakia Romania or Serbia of Hungarian lands, NOT INCLUDING THE
VAST NATURAL RESOURCES AND INFRASTRUCTURE that Hungary built.  Simply
saying that the revision was due to war is quite naive and doesn't get
to the problem. 

>What exactly do you call persecution?  The school system which uses
Hungarian as the language of instruction?  The quota prescribing that
certain percentage of students admitted to colleges must be Hungarian?
Or instances when you are not helped in a store because you don't speak
Hungarian?<

I think you don't live in Slovakia or you are blind or both.  As in
Romania and Vojvodina, Hungarian schools are being closed, Hungarian
officials are being replaced by Slovaks.  The basic rights to education
and local government were part of the Treaty of Trianon which every
country around Hungary has violated to the point of making it moot.  By
the way, how far can you go in a Hungarian school?  Find out.

>Sometimes people question the poor condition of the Slovak minority in
Hungary. Frequent counterargument is that "they don't make any noise
about
it." Then similarly, if somebody ceases to declare himself/herself as
Hungarian (for whatever reason, especially mixed marriage), what's wrong
with that? You make it sound like marrying a non-Hungarian is something
strange.<

I never said it was strange just a fact.

[It is now ILLEGAL to speak Hungarian in public places - yes this at the
dawn of the 21st century. This recent]
>This is nonsense. You probably confuse public places with government
offices. And even then it's still not true. As far as I remember the law
was to ensure that a person speaking the official language (Slovak) will
be able to communicate with government employees. If there is any "ban"
it
concerns only official documents, which makes a lot of sense. The law
says
nothing about verbal communication among Hungarian speaking persons,
should it take place in an office, on a street or anywhere else.<

Yes I meant official places, however this law sets a mood for the entire
country.  Again I don't think you realize the seriousness nmor the
effects of the law.

["language purity law" even sought to ban the use of Hungarian in
Church.  As ignorant as many of these Slovak lawmakers are, they took
this part of the law out -  gee, thanks!]
>Well, they are not ignorant enough to forget Cernova. 
Your sarcasm is totally out of place.<

What?  You are trying to justify the banning of Hungarian or any other
language in Church?  Cool!

-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

In article >, Vera Hailey > wrote:
>I have a stamp collection and am trying to figure out what country 
>"Magyar" is. I can't find it in my book. Can you help?
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Vera
>Virginia USA

Magyarorszag (Hungary) is just a fine country.

BTW I have a Coke can in my kitchen and I can't figure out what country "USA" 
is.
Any help?


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Are you KIDDING?????????????????????????
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

=09Wednesday, August 28th, Spotlight by Starlight, performance, Mason
=09District Park, Annandale, VA. For more information contact (703)
=09941-1730.=20


=09Sunday, September 29th, community dance, Spanish Ballroom at Glen
=09Echo Park. For information contact Jamie & Betsy Platt at (301)
=09320-7099.


=09Saturday, November 2nd, Szentgerice Festival, Fairfax Unitarian
=09Church.  For information contact Mary & Bob Trip (703) 323-2504 or
=09Emory & Rita Lazar (703) 323-8293.


=09Saturday, November 9th, Harmony Hall Performance. Dancing and
=09teaching circles immediately following performance. For
=09performance/admission information contact the box office (301)
=09292-2893; TTY (301) 292-8203.  Harmony Hall is located at 10701 Livingst=
on
=09Road, Fort Washington, MD.=20



Szilvia Bal=E1zs

This abridged interview with Gyula Horn might interest somebody. The
original is at http://www.kenpubs.co.uk/worldstatesman

I would like to hear anyone's views, particularly anyone who has seen the
changes in Hungary at first hand, or who has a view on whether his EU and
NATO aspirations are desirable/realistic.

Matthew Foley
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Your government's popularity has declined in recent years. Do you expect
enough support to win elections scheduled for 1998?

Popularity always falls after austerity measures. That hurts, I don't need
to tell you, but I am convinced that there is no other road that will lead
the country out of economic crisis. We have broken with previous
governments' policies of dodging problems rather than solving them. We have
declared the principle according to which positions, even if they have been
entrenched for decades, may not be maintained if they are not justified by
economic performance. I am committed to pursuing stability and the reform
of public finances. I have the impression that people acknowledge the
results that our consistent policies have brought, even though their
standard of living does not yet reflect these results. The decline in our
popularity has stopped - in fact, in recent months our popularity has
increased - and it seems that people  accept the government's efforts and
have not lost confidence in the parties which form the government, not
least because the parties that form the opposition have not so far come
forward with a feasible alternative economic strategy.

Few countries in Central Europe have attracted as much foreign investment as
Hungary. Why?

First of all, I am happy to be able to correct you: no Central European
country has attracted as much foreign investment as Hungary. The 14
countries of East-Central Europe have so far attracted a total of US$28
billion, of which Hungary alone has received US$13 billion. Even during the
war in the
neighbouring former Yugoslavia, the presence of foreign capital was more
extensive in Hungary than in any other country in the region. The results
Hungary achieved in privatising public assets during 1995, when revenues
from privatisation were double the target for the year, was a sign of
encouragement from foreign investors. In Hungary the greater part of the
privatisation programme is to be completed by the end of 1996, when the
private sector will have contributed 70 per cent to GDP. Foreign investors
are increasingly aware that the labour force in Hungary is highly qualified
and - I say this with mixed feelings - relatively inexpensive. Another
factor to Hungary's credit is that it is increasingly seen as a gateway to
countries lying to the east and west and to the north and south.

Market access is always a key factor in investment decisions. Being an
Associate Member of the European Union, Hungary is an ideal springboard for
investors who wish to reach major markets in Central and Eastern  Europe.
The state of the infrastructure is another important consideration, and
Hungary has undergone spectacular development here, both in terms of the
modernisation of its roads and its mobile telephone systems. In fact,
because of the latter, Hungary has the most advanced telecoms systems in
the region.

Which fields do you see as being central to foreign investment in coming years?

We expect the multinational companies which have established themselves in
Hungary to expand their operations in the electronics and food industries.
We sense a tendency that, after electronics and vehicle companies set up
shop here, they will be followed by suppliers for their operations. We also
reckon on considerable investment in the service sector if Hungary can
capitalise on the transit potentials of its geographic location and can
become a Central European regional centre for goods distribution and for
financial services.

How important is Hungary's accession to the OECD?

Hungary was admitted to the organisation that gathers together the most
advanced countries in the world in March this year. The OECD is often
referred to as the foyer of the EU, and indeed our membership is a
milestone along the road to full EU membership. Hungary's admission to the
OECD expresses appreciation of the government's results in economic and
political stabilisation, and grants legitimacy to these results. It's a bit
like a favourable school report on where Hungary stands and what it has
accomplished.

In addition to the economic aspects of our admission to the OECD, it helps
draw the attention of foreign investors and confirms the country's
political and economic stabilisation and the legal framework of the
evolution of the market economy.


What are your hopes with regard to EU membership?

The word 'hopes' is an understatement. I am convinced that Hungary is ready
for EU membership considering its democratic institutions, its results in
building a market economy and in harmonising its legislation with that of
the Union. I think that the negotiations on accession could open half a
year after the completion of the Inter-Governmental Conference, and Hungary
can become a full
member by about 2000.

Let me stress that Hungary's relationship to NATO and to the EU dates back
beyond the change in the country's political system: intensive co-operation
began in the second half of the 1980s. I consider it important that the
member states of the EU are increasingly aware that, maybe for the first
time in history, the creation of an undivided Europe is becoming a
realistic historical opportunity. Western Europe has got to make a decision
on the admission of the new democracies of East-Central Europe because that
is the only way to ensure stability in Europe. Moreover, it is our
conviction that the enlargement of the EU may be beneficial to original
member states in terms of finances, access to new markets and job creation.
In view of the conclusions at the top-level meeting in Madrid, I consider
that the process of enlargement is irreversible. We have received the
Questionnaire of the European Commission and have formulated the answers to
it, covering both the country's situation up to 1995 and our predictions
for the future.

How do you assess Hungary's economic relations with the other countries of
Central Europe?

As I have already said, Hungary seeks early accession to the EU and to
NATO. We hope that the other countries of the region will also achieve this
as soon as possible for the sake of the stability of the region, the
promotion of bilateral relations and the observation of minority rights. As
far as economic relations are concerned, we transit some 70 per cent of our
intra-region trade turnover
with the signatories to the Central European Free Trade Area (CEFTA). CEFTA
aims to liberalise trade between the member countries, to remove tariffs
for manufactured goods by 2001 and to support trade in farm produce by
preferential tariffs. Under the auspices of CEFTA in 1995 Hungary exported
US$757 million-worth of goods and imported US$982 million - 20 per cent
higher than in 1994.

With regard to the region as a whole, 23 per cent of Hungary's total
foreign trade in 1995 was with the countries of Central-Eastern Europe -
about US$3 billion. Let me speak in detail of trade with two of our
neighbours in particular. The value of trade between Hungary and Slovakia
in 1995 was 50 per cent higher than in 1994, thanks chiefly to a growth in
Hungarian exports. (There are over 500 joint ventures in these two
countries.) Trade between Hungary and Romania expanded by 80 per cent, and
the number of joint ventures reached 1,700.

What are the political and economic challenges ahead?

Our principal challenge is to prepare for EU and NATO membership. We are
pleased to see that the country is in agreement on these objectives. But
the government is also aware that the reforms that touch on nearly every
aspect of life have unfavourable consequences for some sections of
Hungarian society. We are determined to achieve a situation in which honest
human endeavour earns a just reward. In this connection we plan to create
social welfare systems that can grant a secure livelihood for the needy.
Thanks in no small degree to
the loyalty of the Hungarian people, the conditions are now appropriate for
the government to fulfil its duties to its people.

In article >,
Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>In article >, Vera Hailey > wrote:
>>I have a stamp collection and am trying to figure out what country 
>>"Magyar" is. I can't find it in my book. Can you help?
>>
>>Many thanks.
>>
>>Vera
>>Virginia USA
>
>Magyarorszag (Hungary) is just a fine country.
>
>BTW I have a Coke can in my kitchen and I can't figure out what country "USA" 
>is.
>Any help?
>
>
>Szaszvari Peter

That's Ukrajna Surely Adorable, with csavo spelling.
:-)

Peter k Chong ) wrote:

 
> Dear Luminita (?)

Actually is Cristian.

> I hope I got that right! Be myself eh? Well, I admit I did ask about 
> Romanian origins before hand, the only problem was it took awhile before 
> someone gave me a serious answer. (I kept getting things typed in 
> Romanian sent to me by somone named Jane Doe)

You are not the only one who is annoyed by "Jane Doe's" postings.

> The serious answers I got 
> were what I expected, i.e. standard Daco-Roman stuff.

Frankly, I doubt you know too much about Dacians, Romans and Romanians.
I guess you know even less about a "standard".

> The theory I pulled 
> out came from some Hungarian-inspired sources (We can see the bias) but 
> then again the Romanian sources all say Daco-Roman. (Let's face it, 
> there's gonna be some bias in this too.)

Of course there will always be biased versions of history. Be it Hungarian,
Romanian or Chinese. There will always be nationalists, nice people,
bitter people, intelligent and not so intelligent people among them.

> I have been taught to be 
> somewhat sceptical on reading history, as the author can subtly twist the 
> truth to his/her preference. Here's what I believe to be the truth on 
> Hungarians and Romanians

[...]

I can't comment on the Hungarian's history (the Asian part). 
I don't know much about it.

> 5. The Vlachs are known to have lived south of the Danube

Actually when the term "vlach" appears it mentioned people living
south and north of the Danube. See the slav chronicle of Nestor.

> until about the 
> 11-13th centuries

The chronicles of Anonymous and Nestor mention that the magyars
had to fight the vlachs when they settled in their current locations.
This states that "vlachs" lived north of the Danube since the late 
9 century.

> where they began migrating to modern-day Wallachia and 
> Transylvania.

No document, no proof exist of a major a migration before the 9th century.
And neither later, actually.

> However, the Vlachs themselves were 
> descendants of a Romanized Illyrian tribe that originally started out 
> around Albania and Montenegro. Incidentally, this historical proximity 
> could explain why Romanian shows a rather close relationship to Albanian 
> whereas many other IE langauges do not.

This could be explained by a common substratum that Illyrian and Thracian
peoples shared. Let's not forget also that Thracian tribes reached Illyria
before the Roman conquest. Also Illyrian tribes settled in Dacia 
before said conquest (of the Balkans by the Romans).
After the Romans conquered Dacia they brought people from Ilyria to 
work in Dacia's mines.


> I won't go any further as I'm afraid of stirring things up more than I 
> already have. 

Are you kidding ? You started a major war campaign on the Hungarian -
Romanian virtual front.
In the beginning it is interesting. The discussion is polite with
lots of interesting historical facts. Then it degenerates. One will
start with ironies that later will become personal attacks and finally
insults. Now let's guess who will be that person and make the bets.

> With regards to my girlfriend, she is Hungarian. I originally wasn't this 
> involved in Hungarian culture/affairs but being curious of her background 
> I just did some reading of Hungarian history and culture. It was only 
> after I ran across the Hungarian-Sumerian-Finno-Ugric and 
> Hungarian-Romanian controversies that I really began getting myself 
> involved. By now this was independant of her influence (sounds lame but 
> true). 

I guess she worths the pain ;-)

> This lead me to all sorts of questions regarding Hungarian history 
> and I have found some supporters on and off the net along with the 
> skeptics. (I guess it can be avoided) She just regards my 
> obsession/idiefixe with amusement and really doesn't mind.

Well, keep in mind my advice...

> Maybe I can 
> sound chauvanistic here (you're not the first one to speak up) but I 
> being young, raw, naive and sometimes downright stupid, I'm not too 
> surprised. 
> 
> C'est la vie
> 
> Regards
> 
> Peter Chong   
> 

Ciao,

Cristian Alb