There are many proponents of capitalism on this list.  They marvel at all
the goodies the system blessed them with.  And they proclaim that all people
will eventually have the same financial benefits.  I often feel like giving
them a fiddle to play while they tell me about the good life they're
enjoying.  The problem is not so much that I'm not in favour of people
living well; the problem is that there are environmental and ecological
limits, and we don't even know if we crossed them or not.  If we haven't
crossed them yet, we will.  The rest of the world wants what we have, and
we'll be in no moral position to tell them they can't have it.  We raped,
and continue to rape the planet, and they will too.

While we're busy consuming, and making plans to consume even more, it's hard
to see that we're part of the problem.  But let's try.

If we could, at this time, shrink the Earth's population to a village of
precisely 100 people, with all existing human ratios remaining the same, it
would look like this:

57 Asians, 21 Europeans, 14 from North and South America, 8 Africans

70 non-white, 30 white

70 non-Christian, 30 Christian

50 per cent of the world's wealth would be in the hands of only six (6)
people - all of these would be citizens of the U.S.

70 people would be unable to read

50 would suffer from malnutrition

80 would live in sub-standard housing

1 person would have a college education

Are you still stary-eyed about the wonders of capitalism?  Don't let me
disturb your reverie.

By the way, and to be fair, "existing socialism" was a miserable failure in
this area too.

Joe Szalai

"Humanity has passed through a long history of one-sidedness and of a social
condition that has always contained the potential of destruction, despite
its creative achievements in technology. The great project of our time must
be to open the other eye: to see all-sidedly and wholly, to heal and
transcend the cleavage between humanity and nature that came with early wisdom.
"
          Murray Bookchin

At 11:06 AM 11/16/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote about capitalism and complained
about its neglecting of
> environmental and ecological limits.

Then he gave us the following numbers about our community of human beings:

>57 Asians, 21 Europeans, 14 from North and South America, 8 Africans
>
>70 non-white, 30 white
>
>70 non-Christian, 30 Christian
>
>50 per cent of the world's wealth would be in the hands of only six (6)
>people - all of these would be citizens of the U.S.
>
>70 people would be unable to read
>
>50 would suffer from malnutrition
>
>80 would live in sub-standard housing
>
>1 person would have a college education

 And then:

>Are you still stary-eyed about the wonders of capitalism?  Don't let me
>disturb your reverie.

I am not sure what all this has to do with capitalism. Are you saying that
overpopulation of the world is caused by capitalism? Or that poverty in less
developed countries is caused by capitalism? Or that capitalism is racist?
Or that it is Christian? It stops people from going to college? Or that the
US has the obligation to share its wealth with the rest of the world?
Knowing Joe's previous postings, my bet is his answer to all these questions
is YES! Well, I disagree.

>By the way, and to be fair, "existing socialism" was a miserable failure in
>this area too.

Thank you for this acknowledgement.

Gabor D. Farkas

Many thanks for your help.
Step by step I am managing to build-up some knowledge...
By the way: In Brazil there is a Farkas - I think his name is Thomaz - well
known for his work in the field of photography.

Best Regards and thanks again.

Jorge Fonyat

At 21:16 15/11/96 -0800, you wrote:
>At 01:18 AM 11/16/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:
>
>>    fonnyat
>>
>>Imagine a grape after it lost its freshness, but before it becomes a
>>raisin. I'll be a monkey's uncle if I know what the English word is,
>>and I thought I knew'm all :-).
>
>The correct spelling is fonnyadt.
>
> According to Orszagh: withered, wilted, sere, sear, marcescent
>(gyumolcs=fruit) shrunken, (szepseg=beauty) faded, (breasts) flabby.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>

According to Magda Zimanyi she never said anything from which one could
gather the following:

>EB> Perpetual or not perpetual when Magda Zimanyi doubts that
>EB> the SZDSZ ever had a distinctive character it can mean only one thing to
>EB> me: its leadership is indistinguishable from that of the MSZP.
>
>Excuse me, Eva: I never said anything of this kind.  I did not doubt
>that the SZDSZ ever had a distinctive character. And I said neither
>explicitly not implicitly that its leadership is indistinguishable
>from that of the MSZP.  Nor did the nasty Orban say anything like that
>whom you and I cited. Please, do not distribute this as something I
>said. I definitely did *not* say this.

        Well, I will quote here what you said and perhaps you could explain
to us what you meant by it because it seems that my interpretation was faulty.

MZ: >Look, you yourself are stating that SzDSz is losing its own identity
MZ: >(whatever this means) in the coalition with the MSZP.

        Eva Balogh

Further misunderstandings with Magda Zimanyi--it is becoming an
illness;))

>And then a quick glance to the beginning to Eva Balogh's posting
>shows:
>
>EB>     God saves us from "historians" like Gyorgy Kadar.
>
>And if I remember correctly a few days ago we have also read about
>some "God-awful drivel", or something like that on the Hungary list,
>too.
>
>Thou shalt not use God's name in vain, remember?

        I am not religious, and I didn't object to his using God's name
because of the Ten Commandments. And yes, I use God's name quite frequently
without the slightest pangs of conscience.

        My witticism--which obviously fell flat--concerned the name of God
mixed up with Gyorgy Kadar's rendition of post-World War II Hungarian history.

        Eva Balogh

After about 2 weeks of visit to Budapest,I had about 500 messages waiting.
OK,most of them I just delieted.I don't know why,bnut somehow most of tose
political discussions seems to me so fruitless concerning Hungary itself.
It seemed to me,as just a justification for some of those well informed
persons,to inform most of us on this thread what realy is the political
situation in Hungary.
But the population in Hungary doesn't even know what is going to happen.They
deffinitly do not like the present governement and least there
PrimieMinister.He is on the loest in popularity and the highest is the head
of State.
As the life in Budapest (that where I spendt most of my time) is concerned
it is not too bad.(Again this is my personal view).Crime is on the front
row.Extorsionist bombes destroy bussinesses,and mafia killing are there.Car
theft is the biggest worry,since no anty theft device is worth anything,the
car dissapears in 10 minutes.
Food is plentifull not cheap,women are wearing mini skirts or long skirst
,men are mostly in jeans.Vaci utca is still there,the average price is about
15% higher then in Canada,The quality is poor.
I was quite surprised that the busses don't spue the dark clouds and
stinking deasel fuel,but they have new engines,so they are even quieter.
Theater tickets are about $5,and there are plenty of them,some very
good,some very poor.
Burocracy is rampant,in my opininion.There are many comissions investigating
evrithing.Those have higher lower middle,left right under comissions.The end
result?Who knows?
Nothing can be donne withouth bribes.From the doctor for a house call,to the
tipping anywhere.
The Forum was sold to the Japanese,but there are no immediate changes.
Life is expensive and will be more so in the future.At the same time there
are 2 brand new shopping plaza opening just last week.One is built by Peter
Munck and Trizec real estate.This one has even a skating ring,and many many
stores.The other is a 2 tier establishment,waiting for customers.
I hope they will come.
In short this was my impression,and realy I did not see to much.
Andy.

At 08:38 PM 11/16/96 GMT, Jorge Fonyat wrote:
>Many thanks for your help.
>Step by step I am managing to build-up some knowledge...
>By the way: In Brazil there is a Farkas - I think his name is Thomaz - well
>known for his work in the field of photography.

        My thought from the very beginning has been that Fonyat might be a
corruption of a bona fide Hungarian name, especially because of the presence
of "ny," which in Hungarian is the orthographic sign for the Spanish "n"
with a tilde. Eventually my curiosity sent me to several biographical
dictionaries to see whether there is perhaps a Hungarian family name which
is close to "Fonyat." And yes, there is: Fo'nyad. (For Jorge's information
the "o" in Hungarian has an acute accent signifying an extended  long "o"
sound. And yes, there was at least one Fo'nyad who was famous enough to get
into the Hungarian biographical dictionary, published in the late 1960 in
two volumes and since then two more volumes appeared containing those
recently deceased. Fo'nyad Imre Dezso" was born in 1906 in Szombathely and
died in Budapest in 1965. He was a Hungarian Reformed minister
(Presbyterian, Calvinist). He finished his theological studies in
Switzerland and received his doctorate in Debrecen (the Calvinist Rome).
>From 1938 until his death he was minister of Monor. He was especially
involved with the youth movement (Soli Deo Gloria) of the Hungarian Reformed
Church and was editor of a Hungarian Calvinist newspaper designed for
students entitled "Mi Utunk."

        Perhaps someone in Budapest could check the name "Fo'nyad" or
"Fo'nyat" in the telephone book.

        Best, Eva Balogh

Dear Eva (forgive me if I am using an inadequate treatment)

It was a real emotion to read your note.

This sheds a lot of light to an issue that lasts for decades...

You probably lived all your life in Hungary and cannot understand the
mix of curiosity and sense of void for having had the roots to my origins
interrupted somewhere.

I am truly impressed with the value of the information you are providing
me. For sure I will proceed and let you know about my final findings.

My best thanks, Jorge Fonyat








At 16:22 16/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:38 PM 11/16/96 GMT, Jorge Fonyat wrote:
>>Many thanks for your help.
>>Step by step I am managing to build-up some knowledge...
>>By the way: In Brazil there is a Farkas - I think his name is Thomaz - well
>>known for his work in the field of photography.
>
>        My thought from the very beginning has been that Fonyat might be a
>corruption of a bona fide Hungarian name, especially because of the presence
>of "ny," which in Hungarian is the orthographic sign for the Spanish "n"
>with a tilde. Eventually my curiosity sent me to several biographical
>dictionaries to see whether there is perhaps a Hungarian family name which
>is close to "Fonyat." And yes, there is: Fo'nyad. (For Jorge's information
>the "o" in Hungarian has an acute accent signifying an extended  long "o"
>sound. And yes, there was at least one Fo'nyad who was famous enough to get
>into the Hungarian biographical dictionary, published in the late 1960 in
>two volumes and since then two more volumes appeared containing those
>recently deceased. Fo'nyad Imre Dezso" was born in 1906 in Szombathely and
>died in Budapest in 1965. He was a Hungarian Reformed minister
>(Presbyterian, Calvinist). He finished his theological studies in
>Switzerland and received his doctorate in Debrecen (the Calvinist Rome).
>From 1938 until his death he was minister of Monor. He was especially
>involved with the youth movement (Soli Deo Gloria) of the Hungarian Reformed
>Church and was editor of a Hungarian Calvinist newspaper designed for
>students entitled "Mi Utunk."
>
>        Perhaps someone in Budapest could check the name "Fo'nyad" or
>"Fo'nyat" in the telephone book.
>
>        Best, Eva Balogh
>
>

Magda,

        OK. Let me try again:

>> MZ: >Look, you yourself are stating that SzDSz is losing its own identity
>> MZ: >(whatever this means) in the coalition with the MSZP.

        My question is the following: What do you mean by "whatever this
means." In my interpretation "whatever this means" refers to SZDSZ's "own
identity." Therefore, to me, it signifies that you are denying the fact that
the SZDSZ had an identity to lose. And if it doesn't have its own identity,
then it must be indistinguishable from its coalition partner.

        Sorry, but in my mind a parenthetical expression like "whatever this
means" signifies belittling whatever it refers to. In this case the
individual character of the SZDSZ.

        So, you see, I wasn't questioning my part of the sentence: "the
SZDSZ losing its own identity. I am questioning the part you added to it:
"(whatever this means)."

        Perhaps this will clear up some of the misunderstanding. So, I
repeat: what do you mean by "whatever this means."

        Eva Balogh

P.S. And by the way, I asked an American friend who happens to have a Ph.D.
in philosophy and whose mother tongue is English what her reaction would be
if she read your sentence. Her reaction was exactly the same as mine.

Dear Jorge,

        My feeling is that you are on the right track. Maybe Magda Zimanyi,
who has had done a lot of good deed in the past, could look at the Budapest
telephone directory for you.

        Good luck, and keep us informed.

        Eva Balogh

The anatomy of the Privatization in Hungary is the anatomy of the Tocsik
Affair.
The Prime Minister of Hungary, Mr. Horn announced that he will request from the
President,that as of October 15, 1996 Mr. Suchman, Trade and Commerce Minister
should be dismissed.
The Prime Minister also requested that the Police should watch Ms. Tocsik
around the clock, because " she received several life threatening calls".
At the same time the Prime Minister also said, the Authorities must find
a "legal way" to take back the paid out commission of HUF 800 Million
(about $5 million).
What happened?

"A contract (krn4tr`kt4) noun
Abbr. contr., cont.
1.a. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written
     and enforceable by law.
  b. The writing or document containing such an agreement.
2.   The branch of law dealing with formal agreements between parties."

The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language,
Third Edition copyright ) 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version
licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved.

Ms. Tocsik was hired as a result of a bidding contest. As  the winner she was
hired to advise and counsel the Privatization Authority to return certain
State owned Properties to Municipal Authorities. The multi Billion Forint
transaction resulted in HUF 804 million commission, which was paid.

I don't try to defend Ms. Tocsik or any participants or victims in this case.
I have no knowledge of any factual details except some press readings,
which sources - by my judgment- could be questionable by Western Standards.
The problem as I see; in the new Democratic Hungary the Law is not Law if it
is inconvenient to the Government.
A contract is not a contract, unless the Government like the result.
The Police regulates Ms. Tocsik's movements and levied all her assets.
There is no indictment, no judgment, just political pressure from major
Parties.
I am open to discuss this case.



> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
This article was posted to Usenet via the Posting Service at Deja News:
http://www.dejanews.com/           [Search, Post, and Read Usenet News]

In article >,
 says...
>
>My name is Jorge Fonyat and I live in Brazil.
>
>A few years ago I was told my last name is tipically hungarian.
>My ancestors came to Brazil over 100 years ago, Through Italy.
>
>I have no original records and there is always the possibility that
>the immigration officers - with  difficulties to understand
>what the newcomer was saying in his own language -  record a different
>name, ortographically similar to hungarian words.
>
>On the other hand, Fonyo'd, near Lake Ballaton, as pointed out by a new
>hungarian friend, has a big resemblace with my surname. Could Fonyat
>mean "from Fonyo'd" ?
>
>All of you can immagine my curiosity and the challenge this represents.
>Any hint / idea or pointer to a specific organization that could have
>emmigration records (... 100 years...) will be mostly helpful.
>
>Best Regards and thanks in advance, Jorge Fonyat

It is  very possible, Jorge.  I have heard that the Mormons have all the
Jewish geneological data of Austro-Hungary - I don't know about the
Christian geneology.  I was told that they have everything up to the turn
of the century, after which there were more secular marriages and not
every marriage and birth was registered with the religious authorities.
Good luck.  Agnes

S or G Farkas > wrote:

>At 01:18 AM 11/16/96 GMT, Bandi Rozsa wrote:
>
>>    fonnyat
>>
>>Imagine a grape after it lost its freshness, but before it becomes a
>>raisin. I'll be a monkey's uncle if I know what the English word is,
>>and I thought I knew'm all :-).
>
>The correct spelling is fonnyadt.

I stand corrected... shouldn't trust my childhood's memories...

> According to Orszagh: withered, wilted, sere, sear, marcescent
>(gyumolcs=fruit) shrunken, (szepseg=beauty) faded, (breasts) flabby.

I think that none of these words exactly connotes the meaning of
fonnyadt. Regardless what Orszagh is saying.

Notwithstanding Orszagh's wonderful work with dictionaries, I think
his understanding of English frequently sucks big time. Sorry, it's
just my opinion.

>Gabor D. Farkas

Bandi
       |===================================================|
       |    Andrew J. R"zsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA     |
       |                                      |
       |---------------------------------------------------|
       |            Nincsen ro'zsa to"vis ne'lku"l!        |     |
       |===================================================|

On Fri Nov 15 1996 HUNGARY #848 Eva Balogh wrote:

EB> Perpetual or not perpetual when Magda Zimanyi doubts that
EB> the SZDSZ ever had a distinctive character it can mean only one thing to
EB> me: its leadership is indistinguishable from that of the MSZP.

Excuse me, Eva: I never said anything of this kind.  I did not doubt
that the SZDSZ ever had a distinctive character. And I said neither
explicitly not implicitly that its leadership is indistinguishable
from that of the MSZP.  Nor did the nasty Orban say anything like that
whom you and I cited. Please, do not distribute this as something I
said. I definitely did *not* say this.

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu Nov 14  1996 in HUNGARY #847 Eva Balogh cites Gyorgy Kadar:

EB> At 07:21 PM 11/14/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:
>
GK>>        God be with us all...           kadargyorgy
>
EB>        And and someone already said on one of the lists, please
EB> cut  out the "God be with us all" crap! Calling the name of God to
EB> your notes is a sacrilege!
EB>
EB>        Eva Balogh

Well, maybe Eva Balogh is right. There is a commandment among the ten
commandments -- if I can recall it correctly the second one) which
says something like that " You shalt not use God's name in vain!"
Maybe Kadar Gyorgy is wrong in using God's name and he is committing a
sacrilege.

And then a quick glance to the beginning to Eva Balogh's posting
shows:

EB>     God saves us from "historians" like Gyorgy Kadar.

And if I remember correctly a few days ago we have also read about
some "God-awful drivel", or something like that on the Hungary list,
too.

Thou shalt not use God's name in vain, remember?

(A short remark: BTW Gyorgy Kadar never pretended to be a historian.)

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         Further misunderstandings with Magda Zimanyi--it is becoming an
> illness;))
> [...]

I am sorry to say, it seems to be the case...

EB>         I am not religious, and I didn't object to his using God's name
EB> because of the Ten Commandments. And yes, I use God's name quite
EB> frequently without the slightest pangs of conscience.
EB>
EB>         My witticism--which obviously fell flat--concerned the
EB> name of God mixed up with Gyorgy Kadar's rendition of
EB> post-World War II Hungarian history.
EB>
EB>         Eva Balogh

Well, I very probable misunderstood you. As you were talking about
"sacrilege" which is, by definition, a sin against the Second
Commandment, I obviously thought you are talking about the use of
God's name.

If you have nothing against using God's name in general than I really
do not see the point when the use of it is allowable and when it is
not so...

You probably did not take into account that Gy. K. used this phrase
not "in rendition of post-World War II Hungarian history". He closes
all his letters with the same phrase containing God's name. You can
consider this phrase as a part of his signature irrespective of the
letter's content.

Best regards
Magda

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 16 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> According to Magda Zimanyi she never said anything from which one could
> gather the following:
>
> >EB> Perpetual or not perpetual when Magda Zimanyi doubts that
> >EB> the SZDSZ ever had a distinctive character it can mean only one thing to
> >EB> me: its leadership is indistinguishable from that of the MSZP.
> >
>MZ >Excuse me, Eva: I never said anything of this kind.  I did not
>MZ> say that the SZDSZ never had a distinctive character. And I said
>MZ> neither explicitly not implicitly that its leadership is
>MZ> indistinguishable from that of the MSZP.  Nor did the nasty Orban
>MZ> say anything like that whom you and I cited. Please, do not distribute
>MZ> this as something I said. I definitely did *not* say this.
>
EB>         Well, I will quote here what you said and perhaps you
EB> could explain to us what you meant by it because it seems that my
EB> interpretation was faulty.
>
> MZ: >Look, you yourself are stating that SzDSz is losing its own identity
> MZ: >(whatever this means) in the coalition with the MSZP.
>
>         Eva Balogh

As you can see, the above sentence is a nearly verbatim citation from
your former letter. The exact citation is:

EB>  SzDSz is losing its own identity in the coalition with the MSZP.

Why should I explain something which was said by you, not me? It was
only cited by me :-)

So I stand by my statement that you attributed to me something I never
said.

Best regards
Magda

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------