My Dear Maria,

M.L.Savontaus:

 " Of course, OLD MYTHS ARE INTERESTING, but WE SHOULD BE ABLE(Not ‘WE', 
YOU)  to put them in the right perspective, not regard them as ‘CREDIBLE 
SOURCES', especially not those, which clearly are nothing more than 
emotionally loaded prejudice".

M.Egorov:

" The sources I presented are far from being a legend or MYTH. All 
chronicles ARE REFERRING to the Hungarians(and implicitly FINNS) as a 
people who came from Siberia.Even if we ignore  what the chronicles tell 
us,we still have the LANGUAGE (which is a non European language and it 
has a lot in common with other Turkic or Asian languages). We also have 
the name of the TRIBE (HUN- GAR), given by the neighboring states. This 
name also indicates a relation to MONGOLS, HUNS,TATARS, TURKS. We also 
have the name MAGYAR, which also indicates the same roots.We also know 
that the HUNGARIANS used to leave in TENTS as late as 12th. 
Century(recorded).Also remember that non of the Europeans used TENTS, 
Romans (Greek & Latin), Germanics(Gots,Vikings, Lombards, etc.), Celts, 
Tracians, Slavs.
You are suggesting to" put these sources in the RIGHT perspective"?.
I know that the right perspective for a HUNGARIAN is to ignore totally 
what the Chronicles tell us. This approach was possible in Germany during 
WW2, when German archeologists found 2000 years old pottery ornamented 
with the German Swastikas.(Or Nazi swastikas how the Germans like to call 
it).

       In the past noble titles( baron, count, duke, etc.) were sold to 
those rich people who had the money but did not have a name.Nations try 
to do the same, Germany for example  became Holy Roman Empire(Although 
they were NOT Holy, NOT Roman, and certainly NOT an Empire).Russians 
elevated MOSCOW to a higher level (THIRD ROME).Every body likes Rome.
The same is the case of HUNGARY and FINLAND.You guys want to be called 
EUROPEANS. 
(Although your language is NON EUROPEAN, your name is NON EUROPEAN, your 
culture WAS NON EUROPEAN, your RACE IS NON EUROPEAN).

M.L.Savontaus:

"Archeological and linguistic results suggest, that Fenno-Ugrian 
languages have been spoken in Europe longer than Indo-European languages.
No genetic features were found, which would be common for Europe's Fenno-
Ugrian nations and Asian nations..."

M. Egorov:

"First we must know who conducted these researches(Hungarians,Finlandians?
).
Than, we must know how many scientists will approve your theory?(world 
wide).
Personally I consider your opinion EXTREMELY STRANGE. And remember that 
the so called 
"Mitochondrial DNA" IS NOT CONSIDERED A RELIABLE METHOD TO ESTABLISH 
WITH CERTAINTY THAT YOU (FINNS) ARE AN EUROPEAN RACE.

M.L.Savontaus:

"Research on mitochondrial DNA supports the assumption of a western, Indo-
European genotype for the Finns. This view conflicts to some extent with 
conclusions made on the basis of research on nuclear genes. In these 
studies Finns differ significantly from most other Europeans".

M. Egorov:

"In research business when you have conflicted results of these type, you 
do not publish them"

Mexico eh? Maybe so, maybe no... Hmm.. I haven't heard about the 
folk-emboridery and the like of Meso-America and Mexico but you do have a 
point since the sacred eagle of the Aztecs does remind one of the Turul. 
As to folk-patterns, are you saying that some of the Mexican folk-art 
patterns look like tulips, flowers and heart shapes? (Sorry I only know 
those Magyar folk patterns - They're probably Sumerian-based!) I know 
that the Legend of the Stag is supposed to have a similar-sounding 
version in Mayan Mythology (check out Fred Hamori's page 
HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/STAG.HTM - I think that's the site, if not, rifle 
through his mythology page HTTP://EXO.COM/~FREDH/MYTHS.HTM for the Great 
Stag story) and there are a few Magyar-Meso-American lexical similarities 
(ex. Aztec TEPEC = hill, Magyar DOMB). Well, I think blah, blah, 
blah,....                                                                
           Udv                                                           
                                                                         
           Peter Chong

Dear Friends,

    When criticizing the "Mongol-Hungarian-Asian debate", I was not really 
interested in who was right and who was wrong; I did not attempt either to 
go into semantics. All I was trying to do was to 
express my discontent with the DISCOURSE used in the debate, which was I 
believe full of prejudice. But, anyway.
   For a change, I have an other question:
        What do you guys think, why is that most of these debates going 
on this list get really nasty after a while? I mean, they call each 
other liar, racist, fraud, etc. I have an idea: from now on why don't we 
try to have a nice, pleasant, intellectual  conversation; how about 
criticizing each 
other's IDEAS, instead of calling the person names.(O.K. before anybody 
tells me "I didn't do it",  and lists all his/her ever mailed mail, why 
don't we just try.)



   SO, I'M READY FOR SOME PLEASANTLY INTELLECTUAL MESSAGES!
         KEEP THEM COMING!
                                  K.K.R.

................................................................u. 

     Common Wally, let's don't get to sentimental. Is you don't feel you 
addressed the issue in such manner, don't take the blame. Common!
Kovacs Gyorgy wrote you might have some interesting answers to what I 
wrote about. Do you think that the debate was conducted in a manner that 
did not allege prejudice? ( Not you but the debate as a whole.)
Common man, talk to me; after what you have been writing lately I 
expected a much more interesting answer from you.
   Why don't you read my other message called:
 "How about a pleasantly intellectual debate" or something like that.
  And cheer up.     By now, I have to go and feed the aligators.
                                                              K.K.R.

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Dear Maria,                                                              
          So the Finns, Magyar and the like are Asians eh? Hmm. I suppose 
it might not be too much to ask you, say... have you met a modern Finn or 
Magyar, or better yet have you run a genetic/DNA test on a Magyar and a 
Mongoloid/Oriental. Or wait even better, have you met a Magyar/Finn of 
the 9th century?                                                         
                                                                         
 I thought so,,,

Hey with your views and stuff, you could write a little Bible-type book. 
And hey, a better idea! Why don't you start your own little cult or 
organization like some of the greats of history! At least you can do 
something more noticeable and significant with those plebes than toying 
with Net-Citizens...

Hey Gabor Barsai,

     What's up with all these numbers? I'm gonna seem awfully uneducated, 
but let me admit I don't understand half of what you posted.Maybe a 
little explanation with your "ancient sun calendar" wouldn't hurt any of us.
What are you in, anthropology, history or astrology?
                                        Read ya latter:        K.K.R.

On 8 Aug 1996, Elmer Kuber wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can buy one in Hungary?
> 
> Please e-mail me at >
> 
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:
> 
Elmer, you mean TAROGATO? An instrument in traditional Hungarian music or 
am I  completely off the line?      K.K.R.

Archive-name: hungarian/broadcast
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: broadcast
Last-modified: 1996/06/29
Version: 0.82
Posting-Frequency: every twenty days

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Many thanks go to Andy Vadasz and Peter Soltesz, who compiled much of
the information shown here. This file is being maintained at the
archive <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/HU-broadcast.txt>;. A similar
compendium is also available from the HAL archives
<ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hungary/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/ftp/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>;,
with more related material under <http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/Entertainment/>;.

 The programme by the Radio Petofi is available real-time simulcast via
the Internet (the first such national broadcast according to them):
<http://www.petofi.enet.hu/reala.html>; (note that this adress is at
'enet.hu', signifying E-NET, which is distinct from 'eunet.hu' where
some other resources are to be found). That page has all the
information needed to get the sofware handling the 'realaudio' format,
or one can go straight to the source at <http://www.realaudio.com>;.

 Realaudio format recorded broadcast segments for some HungarianRadio
programmes are available thru <http://www.wrn.org/stations/hungary.html>;. 
The homepage for Radio Budapest (the external service of Hungarian
Radio) is at <http://www.eunet.hu/radio/>; - they have a lot of textual
information, including schedules and frequency tables for worldwide
broadcast.

 Computer-readable Hungarian language broadcast material from the Voice
of America is found under <http://www.voa.gov/programs/audio/>;; they
have other computer audio file formats for download beside realaudio as
well.

 Here is a listing of Hungarian language broadcasts (as of 28 May
1996), collected by Peter Soltesz <mailto:>.
Note that the Hungarian language broadcast of the Radio Free Europe
(which was shown in the original version I posted) has been
discontinued sometime in '95! Also, the Voice of America beam is
transmitted from outside America and can't be received there (despite
the earlier listing showing them with their nominal Washington, D.C.
location). However their Web server makes computer-readable recordings
available, as shown in the paragraph above.  I dropped the VOA entries
from here - for the full schedules see
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/hungarian-pgms> and for all the
frequencies <gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/langs-and-freqs>
(these files can be accessed thru <http://www.voa.gov>; as well as from
<ftp://ftp.voa.gov/>).

<<< Text version of database file follows: >>>
  ID, Type, FREQ, City, ST, PROG, DAY, Time, Address, Tel, Fax 
 KTYM , AM ,, INGLEWOOD , CA ,1,,,,,
 WVOF , FM ,, FAIRFIELD , CT ,2,,,,,
 WNDU , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WSBT , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WRSU , FM ,, NEW BRUNSWICK , NJ ,1,,,,,
 WCSB , FM ,, CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,
 WKTX , AM ,, CORTLAND , OH ,12,,,,,
 WKTL , FM ,, STRUTHERS , OH ,1,,,,,
 WELW , AM ,, WILLOUGHBY-EASTLAKE , OH ,1,,,,,
 WIBF , FM ,, JENKINTOWN , PA ,1,,,,,
 WMZK , AM , 680 , DETROIT , MI ,1, FRI , 2100-2200 ,,,
 WNYE , TV , 25 , NEW YORK , NY ,0.5, SAT , 1500-1530 ,,,
 TCI , CABLE ,, WESTCHESTER County , NY ,,,,,,
      , AM , 1380 , NEW YORK , NY ,1, SUN , 1200-1300 ,,,
 WQRP , FM ,, DAYTON , OH ,3, SUN , 0900-1200 ,,,
 WNVC , TV , 56 , FALLS CHURCH , VA ,0.5, SAT , 0800-0830 ,, 1-703-698-9682 ,
 CKJS , AM , 810 , WINNIPEG, MANITOBA , CN ,0.5, SAT , 2000-2030 ,, 1-204-477-1
221 ,
      , FM , 105.9 , NEW YORK , NY ,2, SUN , 1200-1400 ,,,
      , SW , 25 m ,, PA ,0.25, TH , 1645-1700 ,,,
 TELSTAR , SAT , 22 ,, NA ,,,,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, M-F , 1930-200 ,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, SAT , 1730-1800 ,,,
 ASC-1 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0,,,,,
 VATICANA , SW ,,, IT ,0,,,,,
 CBN , SAT ,,, NA ,0,,,,,
 CBC , SW ,, TORONTO , CD ,,,,,,
 BBC , SW ,, LONDON , UK ,,,,,,
     , SW , 3250 , BIRMINGHAM , AL ,1, D , 0700-0755 ,,,
          ,, 830 , CLEVELAND , OH ,,,,,,
 MAGYAR RA. , SW , VARIES , BUDAPEST , HU ,0, D ,,,,
 BUDAPEST , SW , VARIES , BUDAPEST , HU ,0, D ,,,,
 DEUTSCHE W , SW ,,, GE ,0,,,,,
 WCPN , FM , 90.3 , CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,

<<< end of database listing >>>

 Andy Vadasz <mailto:> posted the following:
+In a May 14 message, I reported (in part):
+
+> their current 9870 kHz will change to 9840 kHz starting May.21. Not clear
+>whether the change is for the entire 3 hour transmission (including
+>Hungarian and English language programs). 
+
+More recently the new arrangement has been posted on the "Radio Budapest"
+webpage: http://www.eunet.hu/radio/   To summarize. the North America beam
+is broadcast on 9840 and 11870 kHz with the following breakdown
+
+Starting time (UTC)     Language    Beam orientation
+00:00                   Hungarian    N.America East
+01:00                   English      N.America East
+01:30                   Hungarian    N.America West
+02:30                   English      N.America West
+
+In my area (Northern Virginia) the first two segments have been fair to good
+on 9840 kHz.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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Peter k Chong > wrote:
>news:
>
>Dear Mr(s).Croat (a.k.a. Hungarian/(Vengir)Magyar-hater)                 
>     How the hell could a Magyar have 1/3 Croatian blood/genes/whatever 
>in his system? Why the hell would a Slavic Hrvat (Horvat) wanna marry a 
>"Mongol" and therefore "Hunnish" Hungarian? Other than Kovács and Horváth 
>what other Magyar names come from Croatian? (For your info. the "KOV-" 
>from Kovacs comes from KO" meaning stone in Hungarian. In Finnish stone 
>is KIVI. In many Ural-Altaic languages, KO- or KI- type words have a 
>connatation of "hard", "rock" or "stone" or "solid"! So how could a 
>Slavic tribe have taught the faraway Finns what a stone was? You Slavs 
>lived in Europe in Southern Poland and Byelorussia (400 AD) while the 
>Finns were living in northern Russia (away from any Slavic/Russian 
>tribe). Another note on KOVACS - the Ukranian capital name, Kiev comes 
>from the same word KO" (Hungarian). The Ukranian chronicles state 
>explicitly that the (maybe "Uncivilized"?) Magyars founded the city of 
>Kiev and that many Magyars stayed after it was founded! (around 700-800 
>AD!)) Obviously you Slavs learned well from both the "barbarian" Vikings 
>(Rus' is a Viking name, so is Igor and Vladimir) and the Magyars (the 
>CROAT city name Osijek comes from the Magyar Eszék and the CROAT city 
>name of Sisak comes from Magyar Sziszek) No wonder you Slavs made such 
>great cities, such a great civilization so early! (first big Slav empire 
>- Moravian Empire of Svastopuk around 900 AD, first big Turanian 
>(including Huns, Hungarians, Turks, etc) empire 1200 BC in Central Asia - 
>Chorezmian Empire!) My friend, its so much better to be a barbaric Asian 
>than a civilized fool / sukin sin, etc.                                  
>                                                                         
>                 ÉLJEN AZ IGAZSáG!          
>

Something I found in the Hungarian newsgroup.

At 22:35 06/08/96 -0000, Peter Kovalszki wrote:
>Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>> 
>> Haliho!
>> 
>> At 01:33 03/08/96 -0000, Peter Kovalszki wrote:
>> 
>>  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi!
>> >>
>> >> I've recently been talked to an acquaintance regarding the origin of the
>> >> Hungarian people.  And from there we went through the usual ones about
coming
>> >> from Siberia, the Ural mountains, Sumeria, etc..  He however mentioned
some-
>> >> thing as well as a "theory" as crazy as it sounds about Hungarians
>> originating
>> >> in Egypt!
>> 
>> <snip snip>
>> 
>>  I was wondering if anyone may have heard of this
>> >> and if they have could they please explain how the heck this is possible?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks,
>> >> Peter
>> >
>> >     Yes, there are a few villages, I think on the lower course of the
>> >Nile(or in the delta?), who are descendants of Hungarians taken as
>> >slaves by the Turks in the 16th century, who kept alive the legend of
>> >their Hungarian ancestry, being called "Magyarabs"(ie "magyar arabs").
>> >Actually I met accidentally a young couple in June in Budapest. They
>> >told me they are Magyarabs. They did not speak Hungarian, I exchanged a
>> >few English words with them, and that was all.
>> >Regards, PK
>> 
>> Well, that is a new one on me - are you sure that they weren't just pulling
>> your leg? Although the Turks did have captured Christian boys in their
>> military - didn't they call them *janissaries*? - it would be surprising to
>> me that a group of them would manage to retain their Hungarian ethnicity as
>> a group, since I think the janissaries were drawn from all different
>> Christian populations.
>> 
>> I was thinking that this notion may have originated with the notion that the
>> *gypsies* originated in Egypt - hence the name *gypsy* of course - and that
>> some people had confused *gypsies* with *Hungarians*. Any possibility that
>> this could be the case?
>> 
>> Yours,
>> 
>> Johanne
>
>    Retaining ethnicity is not the question/though one can imagine 
>eventually even that- retaining the history/legend of their origin is 
>the thing. I met them at the MVSZ meeting , as guests.But this was not 
>their pulling of my leg- I asked them if they are Magyarabs, and they 
>conmfirmed it. I heard about this somewhere.And their ancestors being 
>also Janissaries does not contradict this.I will try to research this, 
>and if I find something, I'll let You know
>
>Regards, Peter Kovalszki

Thanks, Peter!

This really is quite an interesting notion.

The thought occurs to me that there could be some analogy with the Falashes
(sp?) - the Black Jews of Ethiopia - who were largely evacuated to Israel
and settled in Israel just in the last few years. Do you think these people
would be interested in returning to Hungary? 

It would certainly be interesting to discover if these people are on the
up-and-up.

Peter, I was not denying your sincerity in reporting about this couple, but
I have *never* heard anywhere any speculation that the Magyars *originated*
in Egypt, and, if you remember, that was the start of this thread. It really
didn't have anything to do with the idea that "kidnapped" Hungarians might
have retained their identity while having been resettled in Egypt for
several centuries. Therefore, I made what might be considered a reasonable
guess that the confusion - for such it is, I am sure -  might have arisen in
regard to Hungarian origins, because of the fact that Gypsies were
traditionally thought to have come from Egypt, and, of course, Gypsies have
been identified with Hungary - especially by virtue of their mastery of
Hungarian music - for a long time. That is all. I was not suggesting that
there is any closer genetic relationship than that, because until I hear a
contrary theory, I accept the current notion that Gypsies, or Roma,
originated in India (Dravidians, perhaps?) from where they wandered
gradually into Western and Eastern Europe, whereas the Magyars were more or
less Asiatic in origin, I think. (Of course as someone noted not too long
ago here, if you go back far enough, it seems we *all* originated in Africa!)

Clear as mud?

Yours respectfully,

Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
| Did you meet a TURK from ISTANBUL?
| Did you hear about O.J. Simpson?
| Porphyrogenitus met the Hungarians and called them TURKS.( 940 AD)
| 

So?
Many thought you were russian... what does that prove?

Peter k Chong > wrote:
>I guess no one is immune to forced assimilation. Obviously, though some 
>are more brutal than others. Witness Hitler and the Jewish/Slavic/Gypsy, 
>etc. Holocaust, Rwanda - Tutsu vs. Hutu, Bulgaria - Turks discriminated 
>aganist by Bulgars, Russian pogroms by Czar in the 19th century, WWII and 
>the Japanese militarists (Rape of Nanking 1937, forcing of Japanese 
>culture on Chinese, Manchurians, Fillipinos, Vietnamese, Indonesians, 
>etc.), Slovakia 1920s and 1990s (discrimination and restrictions placed 
>on Magyar minroity - ex. no Magyar allowed to be spoken), 
>Romania-Transylvania - Culutral genocide of Székely Magyars by brutal, 
>vicious racist Romanian citizens and politicians including Ceaucescu 
>during the 20th century, Ethnic cleansing done by Yugoslavs (Croat vs. 
>Serb and vice-versa)... Notice how many instances of Slavic 
>brutality in history, Ms. Egorova...       
>
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused by your blatant fingerpointing at slav 
brutality. The above posting mentions Rwanda, Japan, etc. All countries 
and nations can be pointed at  for brutality of some kind. My question to 
you is this: What nationality and background do you come from? You seem 
to bleed with hatred and pain.
I am quite astounded that you fail to mention the brutality of the 
magyars themselves during WWI. Let's not forget their policy of forceful 
magyarization of all the peoples that they conquered. This included the 
Slavs, the Romanians, and the Slovaks. This magyarization included the 
forced use of the magyar language in all facets of life and education. 
The Magyars and not innocent peoples themselves,

Did you meet a TURK from ISTANBUL?
Did you hear about O.J. Simpson?
Porphyrogenitus met the Hungarians and called them TURKS.( 940 AD)

In article >,  says...
<snip>..
>One day when all this nationalistic nonsense subsides and people start
>thinking of the others in terms of what they can do rather than where
>they were born, the rationale for this kind of discussion will cease to
>exist. People will then be friends!    
                                 
Well spoken!
 
--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC