The whole discussion reminds me of some of the Cambridge stories.

Student in the COOP in line for the ten or less items checkout with a full
shopping cart. The checkout girl asks him: "Are you one of those MIT boys
who can't read or one of them Harvard boys who can't count."

Two guys in the mens room one with a Harvard tee sirt the other with an MIT
tee shirt.
After leaving the urinal the one with the MIT tee shirt is heading out of
the rest room, at which time the Harvard guy says: "At Harvard they taught
us to wash our hands after we urinate", to which the MIT guy replies; "At
MIT they taught us not to piss on our hands."

I keep reading about the incompetents attending ELTE, in the time frame
mentioned, under circumstances which did not exist at BME. There was a "
muszaki foiskola" for the politically inclined, but the BME was not diluted.
I also knew people who flanked out of technically oriented schools both as
in technikum who ended up in gimnasium and at BME who ended up at ELTE.

Being well rounded is not dependent only on the university, but very much on
the individuals also.

It also fascinates me that people are discussing the quality of diploma
works, solely on basis of some journalistic description without ever having
read any of them. At least at BME you were required to be familiar with your
references, before applying or using them.

Regards,Jeliko

That has always been a subject for contention. Is engineering a worthy
subject for university study? In the fifties in Sydney (Australia) there
was in common with all the other state capital cities only one university
which included a Faculty of Engineering. Then the government founded a
University if Technology with heavy emphasis on Applied subjects. By 1958
it was renamed University of New South Wales and now supports a Law School,
a Medical School as well as the University College providing education for
Defence Force Academy students who graduate with a university degree.
I think it is the quality of the teaching and research and the reputation
of the professors that counts and not whether you call a particular
institutin a University, a University of Technology or an Institute of
Technology.
De'nes
At 17:35 14/8/97 -0700, you wrote:
>MIT is much more than an engineering school.  It has a world class
>linguistics department, a Department of Economics with a bunch of
>Nobel Prize winners, a world class Department of Political Science,
>and the Sloan School of Management which is among the top business
>schools anywhere.  They run the Woods Hole Institute of Oceonography,
>and have superb Math and Physics departments with leaders in a
>number of fields.  All in all, a school with much wider scope than
>the BME in Budapest.  Thay also have a budget to match their ambitions,
>much of it from the Federal Government and Fortune 500 corporations.
>I don't think it is fair (or especially enlightening) to draw
>comparisons between MIT and BME.
>
>-----
>Gabor Fencsik
>
>
Denes BOGSANYI  ATRACI
133 Osburn Drive
MACGREGOR
Australia
61 6 254 3636

> At 02:18 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:
>
> >It also fascinates me that people are discussing the quality of diploma
> >works, solely on basis of some journalistic description without ever having
> >read any of them. At least at BME you were required to be familiar with your
> >references, before applying or using them.

   I agree with Jeliko's comment and I would like to make some of my
own:

     1. I fail to see any reason why there is a need to belittle MIT
        or any other such school, like BME,
     2. Any higher educational  institution accredited  to award ad-
        vanced degree is  a university  ranked one  even the word is
        not in the name.
     3. Neither do I see any reason to  belittle diplomas from tech-
        nikums, like the vizugyi one. Those diplomas  give more than
        just matriculation  by having written  an essay in Hungarian
        grammar. Those people have aquired a professional qualifica-
        tion beside the essay.
     4. And there is nothing inferior in learning a decent trade.  I
        would love to see some of us with advanced education to sur-
        vive without them.
     5. There is a  difference in the  quality of  education between
        schools (secondary or higher education) from different parts
        of any country. Why is the same a sin in Hungary?
     6. How many people have conducted research before 1945,  in law
        or any other field in Hungary? Not many. If that is the case
        there is not much base to criticize  Hungary of the 50's for
        such lack.
     7. I don't care for Torgyan, but I refuse to blame him for try-
        ing to survive at a trying time. He was writing his dissert-
        ation according to  the requirements of the  time and wanted
        to get on with his life.  Let's stop being  hypocritical and
        stop criticizing a person from the  hindsight and benefit of
        40+ years.If you don't like what he has done later as a law-
        yer or politician, criticize him for that.
     8. There is no way ESB will give any credit to Horn, regardless
        of the quality of his dissertation, or for anything else. In
        her eyes he is not to be forgiven. The way I look at it,  he
        has lived down any sin, if he ever had any,by saving Hungary
        from economic disaster.
   Perhaps we should keep these in mind before we become condescend-
ing toward others' education or anything else.
                                                Amos

At 09:15 AM 8/15/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Whether BME is a university or not ( I found the distinction
><tudomanyos> or not <tudomanyos> hilarious...by a former arts student
>;-) ) - we should leave it to the general usage of the language.

        I'm not sure what you mean by "arts student." In English it sounds
as if I was studying fine arts! Moreover, you, living in Germany and
speaking German fluently, should know that "tudomanyos" has a wider meaning
both in German and in Hungarian than "scientific" in English. In fact,
"tudomanyegyetem" according to the Hungarian dictionary means "jogi,
bolcseszeti es termeszettudomanyi (regebben orvosi es teologiai) karbol allo
egyetem."

>Merriam-Webster : an institution of higher learning providing facilities
>for teaching and research and authorized to grant academic degrees...
>If anybody prefers private definitions - BME wouldn4t care.
>Nor would I.

        Well, in that case, there is no need to argue. When I think of a
Hungarian university, I don't think of the BME. It is that simple. ESB

At 04:00 AM 8/15/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>This, by the way, is important to remember when people are comparing
>the quality of students in Hungarian and U.S. colleges (one of the
>favorite pastimes of Hungarian discussion groups on the Net).  The
>system in the U.S. is educating (or, perhaps, attempting to educate) a
>slice of the population which is proportionally four times larger than
>the number in Hungary.  Which means that direct comparisons are
>impossible.  You can compare the 90th percentile in the U.S. with
>the 90th percentile in Hungary, but comparisons are meaningful only
>between population samples that are similarly distributed.

        Indeed, this is a very important remark and, with your permission I
will use it when the time comes. And the time will come because, just as you
said, discussing the shortcomings of American higher education and extolling
the virtues of the Hungarian is a favorite pastime of discussion groups.

>>He received--and hold your breath--a "vizugyi erettsegi."
>> A matriculation in water conservancy. (At least according to Mr. Orszagh
>> that is what "vizugy" means.

>This must be a degree from a "szakkozepiskola", which is probably the
>closest thing Hungary has to a German-style apprenticeship program.....

>I see nothing wrong with this
>kind of an educational institution, provided the skills taught there are
>in demand in today's Hungarian economy.

        This is what I am not sure of. I have a table in front of me about
"Unemployed persons by highest educational qualification and sex"
(*Hungarian Statistical Yearbook of Hungary: 1994,* p. 59) according to
which in 1994 60.1 out of 1,000 people were unemployed with diplomas from
"szakkozepiskolak." This is a higher figure than those with a gymnasium
matriculation (35.1).
        Actually the whole table is interesting. Here are the details:

8 altalanosnal kevesebb (Less than 8 grades of primary school) = 20.2
Altalanos iskola 8 osztalya (Primary school) = 160.6
Szakmunkaskepzo (Apprentice school) = 153.1
Szakiskola (Vocational school) = 5,0
Gimnazium (Grammar-school) = 35,1
Szakkozepiskola (Other secondary school) = 60,1
Foiskola (College) 12,3
Egyetem (University) = 4,8

        As for my example of "vizugyi erettsegi," I was taken aback not so
much about the "vizugyi" as about the "erettsegi." Certainly that is a new
usage of the word "matriculation." Once upon the time "matriculation" meant
that the student could enter university. Interestingly enough the Hungarian
dictionary still defines it that way. Does it mean then that somebody with
"vizugyi erettsegi" can enter BME, for example?
        ESB

At 02:18 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Jeliko wrote:

>
>It also fascinates me that people are discussing the quality of diploma
>works, solely on basis of some journalistic description without ever having
>read any of them. At least at BME you were required to be familiar with your
>references, before applying or using them.

        I am not sure on what other basis I can discuss these works since
they became available only a couple of days ago. The first person who read
them was the journalist. I have to rely on his judgment. Although it is very
possible that I would have a different opinion from his when it comes to the
Horn dissertation; that is, less favorable. But I very much doubt that I
would find the 1954 J.D. dissertation terribly uplifting on the basis of
that synposis because the very premise seems to be faulty. ESB

At 07:54 PM 8/15/97 -0400, Amos Danube wrote:

>     1. I fail to see any reason why there is a need to belittle MIT
>        or any other such school, like BME,

        I am belittling neither. I just simply don't think of BME as a
university. That's all. Call it a quirk or anything else. However, I am
entitled to my opinion, I believe.

>     3. Neither do I see any reason to  belittle diplomas from tech-
>        nikums, like the vizugyi one. Those diplomas  give more than
>        just matriculation  by having written  an essay in Hungarian
>        grammar. Those people have aquired a professional qualifica-
>        tion beside the essay.

        I don't think that we are talking about the same thing. This is not
a "technikum" but a "szakkozepiskola" and somehow I don't think that
"matriculation" is the right word for whatever exams they are taking in such
a school, unless, of course, they can enter university with such a diploma.
I don't know about that.

>     4. And there is nothing inferior in learning a decent trade.  I
>        would love to see some of us with advanced education to sur-
>        vive without them.

        There is nothing wrong with a good trade school. As the matter of
fact, I am all in favor of learning a decent trade. I wish we had more
decent trade schools in this country. On the other hand, I am somewhat
worried that the graduates of these "trade schools" cannot find jobs in
today's economy. There must be something wrong.

>     5. There is a  difference in the  quality of  education between
>        schools (secondary or higher education) from different parts
>        of any country. Why is the same a sin in Hungary?

        It is certainly not a sin. But it is unfortunate that the best high
schools in the country are only a few kilometers from each other. It doesn't
bode well for some talented kids who happen not to be living near those schools
.

>     6. How many people have conducted research before 1945,  in law
>        or any other field in Hungary? Not many. If that is the case
>        there is not much base to criticize  Hungary of the 50's for
>        such lack.

        What are you saying? That before 1945 the educational level of
Hungarian universities were inadequate? I doubt that very much. I am almost
certain that the 1950s was a low point in Hungarian higher education. Now I
realize that you were a student at that time and perhaps you take this
personally. However, I was also a student at the time and if I can say the
above I assume you will be able to admit it too. Not the end of the world.
Out of my two years at ELTE I received practically no credit toward my
honors B.A. So what! I lost two years and a few extras while I was learning
English. I feel confident enough to admit that my two years were not the
highlights of my educational experience. Obivously, it didn't derail my
career which didn't seem to suffer very much as a result.

>     7. I don't care for Torgyan, but I refuse to blame him for try-
>        ing to survive at a trying time. He was writing his dissert-
>        ation according to  the requirements of the  time and wanted
>        to get on with his life.  Let's stop being  hypocritical and
>        stop criticizing a person from the  hindsight and benefit of
>        40+ years.If you don't like what he has done later as a law-
>        yer or politician, criticize him for that.


        I repeat what I said earlier. One didn't have to pick topics which
were "touchy." He could have written a dissertation on medieval Hungarian
law--a far less risky topic. I knew people who actually changed majors in
order to avoid topics which would have compromised them: from history to
folklore, for example. Or from modern history to medieval history. There
were ways to avoid the kind of overzealousness Mr. Torgyan exhibited in his
dissertation.

>     8. There is no way ESB will give any credit to Horn, regardless
>        of the quality of his dissertation, or for anything else. In
>        her eyes he is not to be forgiven. The way I look at it,  he
>        has lived down any sin, if he ever had any,by saving Hungary
>        from economic disaster.

        The reason I said that I might not be as generous about his
dissertation as the journalist from Nepszabadsag was because I am most
likely a bit more picky than he is. This is not just a dissertation for a
"kisdoktoratus" which might be the equivalent of a senior paper at Yale
University but a "kandidatusi disszertacio" which in those days was
equivalent of a Ph.D. dissertation. Historian friends of mine--with many
books behind them--received this degree and therefore I have a fair idea
what was expected. My suspicion is that Mr. Horn, a politician, not a
scholar, cannot be quite compared with the people I am thinking of. It has
absolutely nothing to do with Mr. Horn's political past. It has something to
do with his qualifications as a "kandidatus" of economics.
        As for Mr. Horn's saving the nation from financial disaster--I have
the feeling that it took some doing on the part of real economists to
convince Mr. Horn to do what he had to do. However, at least after eight
months of doing nothing and many steps backward in the process he did come
through. But, you know, Amos, it is not such a great feat when you have no
choice!
        ESB

Oh, and I almost forget. Isn't interesting: Dominus thinks that I
defend Mr. Horn, the "pufajkas," while Amos Danube thinks that I cannot
forgive Mr. Horn for his role of 1956. You guys better decide! ESB

Please:would you help me how to unsubscribe from the list?Thank you.
>At 08:03 PM 8/14/97 GMT, Dominus wrote:
>>"E.S. Balogh" > wrote:
>>>Re: A change of topic.
>>
>>Or is it?:
>>
>>>        A few days ago I read an interesting piece of news. Some time ago a
>>>journalist wanted to read the 1954 J.D. dissertation of Jozsef Torgyan, head
>>>of the Smallholders' Party, and the dissertation of Gyula Horn that earned
>>>him the now defunct title of "kandidatus."....
>>>        As to the outcome. Mr. Torgyan's dissertation was nothing but a....
>>>        I would be curious what you think of this incident. ESB
>>>
>>Not much. If the librarians wouldn't "defend" the
>>politicians, ESB would. And she does. At least the
>>transplants fom the ancien regime ( Horn, in this instant.).
>>What happened? No comments on Horn's paper? Sometimes we can
>>learn more from ESB's omissions, than from any history she
>>presents.
>
>        Well, dear Dominus, or whatever your name is, I didn't comment on it
>because there was no news on it in the internet Hirmondo. If there had been
>I would have.
>        But since then there was some news in the Internet edition of
>Nepszabadsag. According to that piece of news, Horn said that he didn't know
>why the librarian should consider his dissertation secret and as far as he
>was concerned anyone can read it to his heart content. The journalist did
>and found that it was a decent piece of work on Yugoslavia's economics. If
>you are not satisfied with that explanation you can always go to Hungary and
>read it yourself.
>        Eva Balogh
>
>
>
Andy Kozma

Toronto.

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 10:28 PM 8/14/97 +0200, MKH (otherwise Miklos Hoffmann) wrote:
> >E.S. Balogh wrote:
> >>
> >
> > The BME is not really a university as far as I am concerned. It is
> >> an engineering school.
> >
> >Like MIT. The statement speaks for itself. Volumes.
> >MKH
>
>         It sure does--speak volumes. MIT means Massachusetts Institute of
> Technology. It is not called a university. Bye, ESB

I think, we all better return to judging about what we are informed
about. Suszter maradj a kaptafanal...

I admit, I was surprised to learn about the low level of the quality of
education of ELTE. I met really good graduates of ELTE of those days.
But Eva was a student there, she would know.

And those who are familiar with BME of those days would know that
BME4s quality of education PROVED to be excelent ( inspite of the
system ) when it came to practical comparisons abroad.
I cannot judge BMEs quality today. The system had many years opportunity
the excersize personnel policy ( kaderpolitika ). But again, I met
very bright young graduates from there these days.

Whether BME is a university or not ( I found the distinction
<tudomanyos> or not <tudomanyos> hilarious...by a former arts student
;-) ) - we should leave it to the general usage of the language.
Merriam-Webster : an institution of higher learning providing facilities
for teaching and research and authorized to grant academic degrees...

If anybody prefers private definitions - BME wouldn4t care.
Nor would I.
MKH

Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>
> MIT is much more than an engineering school.

Of course! Not perfectly, but quite familiar with it.
The issue was* : are they a university or not.

> All in all, a school with much wider scope than
> the BME in Budapest.

No objection.

> Thay also have a budget to match their ambitions, > much of it from > the
 Federal Government and Fortune 500 corporations.

And it is well deserved.

Miklos Hoffmann

Eva Balogh writes:

> As for the elitist and authoritarian nature of education in Hungary
> I agree with Gabor that it was successful while the more egalitarian
> systems seem to work less well. The problem in Hungary is the incredible
> discrepancy between Budapest schools and schools situated in other larger
> cities.

In fact the top-ranking universities and high schools are all within a
couple of square miles of central Budapest.  As one approaches the
outlying areas of the capital, there is already a marked deterioration
in the quality of high school education.

The elitism of the Hungarian educational system can also be seen in the
relatively small number of people in post-secondary education.  The best
data I have on this is in the World Development Report published annually
by the World Bank and Oxford U. Press.  They compute a so-called Tertiary
Enrollment Ratio, a quantity defined as the number of people enrolled in
all post-secondary schools (universities, colleges, vocational schools,
adult education, community colleges, correspondence courses, etc.)
divided by the population in the 20-24 age bracket.  Here are the
1991 numbers:

 Brazil         12
 Hungary        15
 Costa Rica     28
 Venezuela      30
 Spain          36
 Korea          40
 France         43
 New Zealand    45
 Finland        51
 United States  76
 Canada         99 (!)

By this measure, Brazil has the most elitist educational system, with
Hungary close behind; Canada and the U.S. are the most egalitarian.

This, by the way, is important to remember when people are comparing
the quality of students in Hungarian and U.S. colleges (one of the
favorite pastimes of Hungarian discussion groups on the Net).  The
system in the U.S. is educating (or, perhaps, attempting to educate) a
slice of the population which is proportionally four times larger than
the number in Hungary.  Which means that direct comparisons are
impossible.  You can compare the 90th percentile in the U.S. with
the 90th percentile in Hungary, but comparisons are meaningful only
between population samples that are similarly distributed.

>    And another thought. Don't you think that specialization, already at
> the high school level, will produce people with very little general
> knowledge? In one of the recent HVGs I saw a "portrait" of a young man
> who is the new president of the Baloldali Ifjusagi Tarsulas (the MSZP's
> youth group). He received--and hold your breath--a "vizugyi erettsegi."
> A matriculation in water conservancy. (At least according to Mr. Orszagh
> that is what "vizugy" means.

This must be a degree from a "szakkozepiskola", which is probably the
closest thing Hungary has to a German-style apprenticeship program.  This
type of school may be a reasonable way to train animal control officers,
car mechanics, taxidermists, and the like.  I see nothing wrong with this
kind of an educational institution, provided the skills taught there are
in demand in today's Hungarian economy.  I guess the closest equivalent
of a "vizugyi erettsegi" might be something like an A.A. in Arc Welding
from Hicksville Community College.  Just the degree to have if your
thing is arc welding in beautiful downtown Hicksville.  If what you want
is to become a waste water treatment plant operator, then a "vizugyi
erettsegi" will get you there.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Earlier today I wrote:

> The system in the U.S. is educating (or, perhaps, attempting to educate)
> a slice of the population which is proportionally four times larger than
> the number in Hungary.

Correction: five times.  The Hungarian ratio is 15, the US ratio is 76.

------
Gabor Fencsik