>You all sound like a bunch of children, pointing your fingers at each other
and
> calling
>names.  If you really want to do something, why not leave the comfort of
your
> cushy
>American jobs and go home and help?

Bravo! This may not be kind nor entirely fair but certainly well deserved.

-------------------------------------
Name: tiha von ghyczy
E-mail: 
Date: 09/19/95
Charlottesville, Va.
-------------------------------------

The Hungarian national debt is large but not unmanageable.  As a percentage
of exports, or percentage of GNP, it is far below the size it takes to be
classified as "severely indebted" by the World Bank.  It is even debatable
whether the debt is among the top five economic problems Hungary faces
at the moment.  There are many obstacles to economic growth that are
arguably more important than the debt: dinosaurs of heavy industry left
over from the ancien regime, the botched privatization, a dysfunctional
banking system, corruption, over-regulation, trade barriers, excessive
state intervention in the economy, and a shortage of management skills.

These are problems to be solved by Hungarians in Hungary.  Nothing much
the U.S. Congress, the IMF, the European Community, or the U.S. Supreme
Court can do about any of this.  None of these problems can be helped
much by Hungarian expatriates either.  The kind of debt reduction
crusade Dr Pellionisz is daydreaming about would be positively harmful.
With Dr P's fondness for heavy-handed propaganda, it is certain to back-
fire.  Its only benefit might be to make the Doctor feel like an Important
Person.  This is a soothing thought, and might even be therapeutic.  It
worked once: Dr Pellionisz actually managed to wangle an interview with a
real Ambassador, and he was even politely listened to for a while.
Unfortunately, the Ambassador decided after one meeting to pass on the
Doctor's generous offer of help.  That brush with high diplomacy must
have been very stimulating.  Perhaps the lawsuit is another chance for
Dr Pellionisz to try to grab the limelight.

The countries that have received debt relief in the last 10 years have two
things in common.  One, they have been in far worse shape than Hungary
ever was, or ever will be.  Poland's economy crashed.  Its main export in
the 80s and early 90s was itinerant traders in rickety cars criss-crossing
borders to sell shoddy goods along the roadside.  Egypt, another recipient
of debt relief, had one fifth of Hungary's per capita GNP.  These countries
were real basket cases.

The second thing these countries had in common is their geopolitical
importance, and the strategic favors they have done for the U.S.  The aid
and debt forgiveness Egypt received was a quid pro quo for signing on the
dotted line in Camp David.  Poland had half of its debt forgiven shortly
after the Gulf War, where Polish agents saved the lives of a group of top
CIA operatives by smuggling them out in a van full of Polish engineers,
under the nose of the Iraqi police.  These were deals with an instant
payoff.  None of this had anything to do with the activities of Polish or
Egyptian expatriates.  No vast propaganda campaigns were necessary.

On the other hand, it is not true there is nothing for expatriates to do.
Dr Pellionisz, in particular, could do a great deal to help the Hungarian
cause.  The most promising thing he can do is to lower his profile on the
Net.  At least stay away from English-speaking groups, where people may not
always get the joke right away.  Try to keep the loony-tunes stuff in the
Hungarian language groups where it belongs.  There, the oratory of
Dr Pellionisz blends much nicer into the background noise, and there is
no danger that he might be taken as a spokesman for anybody or anything.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

If you got your arguments from the literature you suggest,
before I get them , please let me know if they analyse a
system which is democraticly built from grassroots up.
and if these were systems founded on high technology and
information technology that we have now.

Also if they explain why "pure" capitalism was abandoned
in favour of some welfare provisions 50 - 80 years ago.
And why even these provisions of a bit more far-seeing
capitalists are failing to pop up your beloved system...
Also some proof of this "human nature thing"...
Why people don't bother answering my questions and
instead repeating the same old umpteen times repeated
stuff?

Also, I don't know where you lived, I lived in Budapest
until 1972, and in a little village  1983 - 87,
and in both cases there were plenty positive side of
life to mention, that was the result of the good work of the
people even under a burocratic/totalitarian
regime, such as education and welfare, well comparable
to the one forked out here in the UK to "common folk".
Not to mention the security and no crime.
You may dismiss these goodies, but the people did not
when they voted back some sort of parties because they
called themselves socialists...   They know now,
that the "freedom" and "democracy"  is not necessary
that, if you can't buy it...



> if I add my two cents worth...
>
> First of all, I find it incomprehensible how anyone who is familiar
> with (or perhaps even had first-hand experience in) the political
> and economic situation in Hungary and eastern Europe, could proclaim
> that any aspect of socialism works, whether in theory or practice.
> To equate a pro-socialist view to "intelligence and caring" is simply
> ridiculous.
>
> There is a great misconception here, so let's make one thing clear:
> there is no such thing (unfortunately) as laissez-faire capitalism
> in the world today. Canada, where I live, is so polluted by socialist
> ideals and programs, that it can hardly be called capitalist: a
> bankrupt health care system, a welfare state, and a debt so big, the
> UN is considering to declare Canada as a third world country. It is
> precisely for these socialist elements, that western democracies
> are failing. It is time capitalism stopped getting the blame
> for the corruption and immorality of what in fact is the result of
> socialist government policies.
>
> Economic planning is impossible under socialism. Its mandate is
> unachievable. Its government is simply an instrument to hand out
> special priviliges and rights to select groups while denying those
> rights from others. It is for these reasons that socialism
> not only leads to moral and economic bankruptcy, but - more
> importantly - it is against human nature. Until this is realised by
> western leaders who seem reluctant to learn from history, we will
> continue to slip into economic collapse.
>
> I must say I have to agree with Ms Balogh on this one. To Ms. Durant:
> If you are seriously interested in detailed analysis of why socialism
> will fail, there are several treatises writen on the subject. I would
> highly recommend Ludwig Von Mises' "Socialism" or Hayek's "Economics
> in One Lesson". Then there is always Ayn Rand's "Capitalism" to clear
> one's mind up.

By the way, you'll annoy Eva Balogh now, the idea is
to totally ignore these questions of mine, after
a speel very similar to yours is delivered...

Eva S. Balogh ) wrote:
: Mr. Pellionisz's knowledge of geography is great indeed, when he says:
:
: >I was not in the remote village of Pecs,
: >I lived in Budapest in the dead center [Baross utca 105. III. em 19.]
:

if pecs is a village, what are basle, berne, geneva, salzburg,
freiburg, innsbruck, grenoble?

d.a.

Dear Colleagues,

We have only four days left to influence the outcome of the Clinton-Iliescu
meeting. Our E-Mail effort is already a success! The numbers of letters
received have kept the issue on the President's "mentionable" list every day,
and twice made the "major concern" category. The quality of the writers is
also impressive: large representation of academia, many overseas sources,
large number of non-Hungarian individuals and organizations including human
rights, educational and religious institutions, and including two
Hungarian-Romanian Fraternal Organization.
         If you have not written yet, or have not asked your friends,
colleagues or students to do so, please use the ramaining days to do that. We
also got some feedback from our friends in Washington, which I would like to
share with you:

1) RETURN OF HUNGARIAN CHURCH PROPERTY
As most other church properties have been returned, except that of the
Catholic and Calvinist Reformed Churches, we should ask Mr. Clinton to demand
the return of ALL church properties, including those of the the Catholic and
Reformed churches. It is not necessary to debate the extent to which these
churches are Hungarian, our aim is to have their property returned, period.

2) MOST FAVORED NATION STATUS OF ROMANIA
We agree with the half million Transylvanian signatories of the demand being
carried by hand to the European Parliament. We do not wish to harm the
interests of the Romanian people and therefore we do not want MNF rescinded.
What the Hungarian Lobby in the USA is asking Mr. Clinton is to MAKE THE
EXTENSION CONDITIONAL on the withdrawal of the new School Law and on the
reestablishment of the Hungarian Autonom Region under recommendation 1201 of
the European Parliament.

3) BELL COBRA ATTACK HELICOPTERS
Mr. Clinton is in an excellent position to ask for something (schools &
autonomy) in return, because Mr. Iliescu is coming with a very substantial
request. He wants to transfer the Bell Cobra attack helicopter production
technology of Textron Corp. to his Brasov Turbomechanica SA plant and wants
Mr. Clinton to give guarantees for the ONE BILLION dollar cost of the project
to the American banks. (Let Mr. Clinton decide if this loan and technology
transfer is in the best interest of the United States and let Mr. Iliescu and
his Parliament decide, if the most pressing need of the Romanian people is to
acquire attack helicopter technology.) BUT, it is the duty of the 1.64
million Hungarian-Americans to remind Mr. Clinton, that if he wants our vote,
he better make EVERY AGREEMENT WITH ROMANIA conditional on the rescinding of
the new School Law and on the approval for Hungarian autonomy.

For you, the sending of an E-Mail letter is only a few minutes. For the
Hungarian communities in Transylvania it can mean cultural survival. Please
do not listen to the  cynical or the letargic, listen to your heart and
write: 

Very truly yours: Bela Liptak

I'm impressed!  Someone around here agrees
with me, that the US is not a democracy...
I hope, it's not really the president...




Forwarded message:
> Delivery-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:08:51 +0100
> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 95 15:07:07 BST
> Message-Id: >
> From:  (Bill Clinton)
> Apparently-To: 
>
> Dear Madam,
>
> My federal agents have been monitoring your communications for some
> months now and have informed me that you have a communist tendancy.
>
> As the president of the worlds most democratic country I both deplore
> these activities and urge you to stop them at once. I hope not to
> bring into force any of my considerable powers, nor do I wish to
> contact your network provider to curb your activities.
>
> If you should feel the need to discuss these matters with myself, or
> with my vice president, Al Gore, we shall be pleased to offer you advice:
>
> 
>  (Al Gore)
>
> Bill Clinton,

.. can spell, I hope.
sorry, I'm just amused. Sort of.
Eva, the dangerous communist

Once again, we have a few folks who say that, we (Hungarians living abroad) are
defending people we know nothing about. If this is a true statement (Mr.
Donea), then you shouldn't be commenting on this topic, either, since you live
in France. It doesn't matter, if you've been living there a week or a couple
years, things have changed in Romania, or has it REALLY?? Then there's talk of
"trying to force ideas of cultural genocide down eveyone's throats"(Darren
Purcell). Cultural genocide is not an "idea"; it's very real.

 The term may be new, but context has been the same for 75 years: State
sponsored intimidation. It has been said that Hungarians (in Hungary) don't
seem to be as ticked off as those abroad. That's because they (Hungarians in
Hun.) are more ticked off with their own struggle; trying to make ends meet,
with recent, price hikes. Inflation is up, but their wages have remained
unchanged, while top brass have been running amuck, robbing the country blind.
Hungarians, there, aren't very happy with their politicians, but that doesn't
mean that they've ignored or do not care about the situation in Romania,
Slovakia, & Voivodnia. The average Hungarian can't really sit down and think
about these things. They're more concerned with how much electricity they can
get away with using without it affecting their pocketbooks or whether or not to
sell their Opel, Ford, or etc. and get a Trabant so they can have that much
more money to buy their kids 8000 Forint pair of Levis 501s. So it's foolish to
say that they aren't concerned about the matter.

  It was also stated that Erdely could be divided up into Hungarian and
Romanian sectors. The question is by who?? The second question would be why
would we need these in the first place? No one wants borders changed or an
apartheid style sectoring of towns. All that Hungarians want is to live as free
citizens and to do as they please, in whatever language (s) or custom (s) they
wish. Is that a really difficult thing to grant? "Progress comes slowly...
America still has a long way to go, remember?". What kind of comment is that??
What does it have to do with the situation in Romania. It's as though if you're
saying that Romania can do what it does because America still has problems that
haven't been ironed out, yet, and it makes it all justified. Great thinking.
This is basic human rights issue. Give power to the people and then the EU will
be a more happier and a more peaceful place.

  What is it that, people who think like you, fear, if these ethnic minorities
get some freedoms?? Revenge?? Both of you say that the people you've met
through your travels are living harmoniously amongst each other. So, what's the
hold up?? Progress hasn't even happened, yet.  "There are Hungarian newspapers
and magazines printed in Romania and Hungarian television is broadcasted thru
all the cable networks in Transylvania, so what is this culture of them that is
forbidden in Romania?" This is all fine and dandy, but how many Hungarians in
Romania can actually afford this service, let alone Romanians?? How free is the
press in Romania for Hungarians to write about what might be troubling them??
Apparently, not so free for those who criticize the President (check out
Tuesday's CET or OMRI news report).

  Let's take a look at what steps the Romanian government has taken to make
things "easier" for the Hungarian minority? Since taking power in January 1990
the Iliescu government has failed to institue sweeping reforms that other
ex-Soviet Bloc countries have. While some countries made great efforts to
assure multi-party elections, the Iliescu government was busy summoning
"miners" to beat in the heads of pro-democracy students in Bucharest (June
1990) and instigating anti-minority violence in the town of Marosvasarhely
(Tirgu Mures) in March 1990. The 5 year old "democratic" Romania has been
spewing out nothing but broken promises. Take for example the very "promising"
National Salvation Front Declaration on the Rights of National Minorities
issued on January 6, 1990:

"The National Salvation Front holds the following to be neccessary:

1.) that the new constitution of the country acknowledge and guarantee the
individual and collective rights and freedoms of national minorities;

2.) that a Law on National Minorities which puts into concrete form the
principles of  the constitution be formulated and adopted. The parliment should
adopt this law within six months of adoption of the constitution;

3.) the neccessary institutional framework for the minorities to be able to
practice their basic rights, including the free use of the native language and
the preservation of ethnic identity, must be guaranteed. For this purpose, a
Ministry of Nationalities will be created.

4.) We wish to guarantee the right of national minorities to resolve the
problems of their own political, social and intellectual life through
individuals appointed or elected from within their ranks to their own
democratic organizations and the organs of state, public administration and
civil society."

  Well, reality is that, in fact, since the December 1991 drafting of the new
constitution there has yet to even exist a National Minorities Law or a
Ministry for Nationalities. Other things that have made lives "easier": Take
for example the SRI (Romanian Intelligence Service), formerly the dreaded
Securitate. They continue to function (new name and all), as usual, to
intimidate and spit out anti-minority propaganda. The Romanian government not
only turns the other way, but, in fact, supports it.

  Example: During October 1991 the Romanian Parliment devoted 4 full days to
public televised slander of the Hungarian minority and it's "guilt". In a Feb.
1992 Pariliamentary speech, Senator Romulus Vulpescu had the complete audacity
to call for a creation of "concentration camps for Rumania's Hungarian
citizens." (How would Americans react if some Senator went on C-SPAN and said
we should build concentration camps to deal with our minorities??) Not only top
government brass are willing to make life "easier", but local government
officals have really devoted a lot of time to making a cushy life for
Hungarians. The most famous of these being Mayor Georghe Funar of Kolozsv r
(Cluj-Napoca). I need not list his accomplishments, because they are displayed
almost daily by the OMRI & CET news services.

  So, now tell us (Hungarians) that we've got it all wrong. Tell us that things
have never been better. Tell us that we can't possibly know what's going on
there because we are too removed from the situation. Tell us anything you can
come up with, but we'll tell you that no one will get EU without resolving,
once and for all, the ethnic Hungarian issue, whether it be Croatia, Serbia,
Slovakia, Ukraine, or Romania.

Ne hagyd elveszni Erdelyt Istenunk!!

Koszi

John Czifra
john_czifra @ shi.com


PS: Koszi Gelencser Pali es Jan George Frajkor. Legalabb, van egy par ertelmes
ember itt.

"Had there not been a magnificent toughness in the magyar spirit, the race
would have collapsed."- Herbert Hoover , President of the USA (1929-33)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>So, I do know something about the Hungarian Revolution of 1956.
>...
>I don't keep my contributions to the Internet on file. If anyone is
>interested in reading my original postings, I am sure he/she can find
>them in the HIX archives.

Are they in English?  I can access HIX, but I've never used te archives.
Where are the instructions?  Incase I've lost it, what is the HIX
address?

Paul

I don't know what happened but I can't find Eva Durant's answer about
socialism, but I still remember enough to express a few of my reactions.
First and foremost, Marx called his own theories "scientific" as opposed to
the "utopistic" ideas of his predecessors. You see, Eva, the trouble is, that
I consider Marx also utopistic--there is no way that socialism, as he
invaseged it, would organically develop. You must use coercion and we know
what happens when some people "who know better" coerce the rest of the
population. So, it is not that the Soviet-type socialism failed because it
was a distorted version of the real one but because Marxist socialism is a
utopistic political philosophy and a utopistic economic theory. The second
which stuck in my mind from your note is that you bravely defended the work
ethics of the "existing" socialist countries. There are two problems with
this. (1) You are practically alone in this opinion; even the Hungarians,
living in Hungary, admit that they didn't work very hard at their jobs. Sure,
they worked very hard, building their weekend place or at a second job in
order to save money for a car, or an apartment. But not at their official
workplace. (2) On the one hand, you say that "real" socialism has nothing
whatsoever to do with the "existing socialism" of Eastern Europe, on the
other, you give glowing examples of well those socialist countries actually
functioned. You have to decide!

As for Mr. Vajda's remarks, of course, I agree with him. His comments on
Canada actually help me to elaborate a little bit on why I don't think that
the Western variety of socialism--the welfare state--suffers from the same
ills "existing socialism" did. Everywhere, from Sweden to Germany, the
governments are forced to cut back on benefits. The problem, of course, is
that it is very difficult to take "benefits" back, as all governments and
companies find out. As I mentioned there was a very interesting article about
Mercedes-Benz and its troubles in the New York Times (I have it on disk, so
if you want it, just drop a note). Workers at Mercedes-Benz receive 10 weeks
of vacation! They receive over $40.00/hour! The factories are outmoded and
takes ages to put a car together. Thus, the car is overpriced! Now
Mercedes-Benz is moving some of their factories outside of Germany! So, most
of the Western-European countries are pricing themselves out of the world
market.

Eva Balogh

Ernest Bayford > wrote:
>My family has recently received an official notice from the Hungarian
>government granting us compensation for real properties that had been
>confiscated by previous regimes over the past several decades. This
>compensation seems to be for only a nominal percentage of the actual value of
>these properties and is to be paid out, not in currency, but in "coupons".
> Can these compensation determinations be successfully challenged or are they
>foregone conclusions? Can someone enlighten me on this subject?  I would be
>very grateful. Thank you.

At this time, the coupons are worth approximately 40 percent of
their face value, which means that if you were to cash in 100,000 HUF
worth at a bank, you would only get 40,000.

When the coupons were first issued, the majority of them were invested as
negotiable bonds. There were many retailers in the country who would
accept them for paykment at 75 per cent of face value. Regrettably, the
value of these coupons has since plummeted.

Also, I would like to point out, that this compensation is only symbolic,
and does not reflect the real value of the loss suffered by the victims
of former regimes. Scores of people submitted inflated claims for
property which have since been turned into apartment buildings and
residential complexes. What did they expect? Would tenants be evicted in
order to return the property to it's one-time owner?  The compensation
law was enacted by the Hungarian government as a gesture of goodwill
after the recent changes.

So, if you're planning a trip to Hungary, you can use your coupons as
spending money, and enjoy your trip.