Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: The Good Life (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: To everybody (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The Tocsik Affair (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
4 Hungarian Sadness (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: To everybody (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: To everybody (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: nasty Orban... (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: To everybody (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Hungarian Sadness (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: To everybody (mind)  59 sor     (cikkei)
11 Hunger in Hungary (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Fonyat - is it an Hungarian word HUNGARY.0849..9611 (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: The Good Life (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

J.Szalai wrote:

>enjoying.  The problem is not so much that I'm not in favour of people
>living well; the problem is that there are environmental and ecological
>limits, and we don't even know if we crossed them or not.  If we haven't
>crossed them yet, we will.  The rest of the world wants what we have, and
>we'll be in no moral position to tell them they can't have it.  We raped,
>and continue to rape the planet, and they will too.

'moral position'!?! Has it ever had importance? I doubt. Wherever and
whenever the decissions are (were) made such things are not considered.
And as far as the public opinion is concerned, do not underestimate the
'opinion-makers' (i.e journalists).

>Are you still stary-eyed about the wonders of capitalism?  Don't let me
>disturb your reverie.
>By the way, and to be fair, "existing socialism" was a miserable failure in
>this area too.

Yeap. And here is the problem with your opinions. I agree with your
descriptions of the unjustice and unfairness of life. True, it should
not be like this and something should be done. But the conclusion, this
capitalism-socialism stuff, I guess wrong. It is not the capitalism which
does the unfairness but the basic human nature. And the most unfurtunate
thing is that you cannot really offer solution. What you think a solution is,
has already been tried and it was a failure, as you admitted. There is
no 'real socialism/communism' only in your and E.Durant's, etc mind.
(you may call it 'unexisting socialism' that would be a perfect name.)
I have already asked E.Durant what would be the difference between the real and
'existing' socialism and how the traps of the 'existing' one can be avoided.
She presented the same old fairy-tale taught on my pol-gazd classes.
And don't think, I am insensitive to the suffering of African or Asian
people or don't care with the environment. But these are real problems
and we are seeking real solutions not social experiments.


P.S: A discussion is going on this list about 'disillusioned marxist'
forming/not forming the SZDSZ 'ko:me'ny mag'. Either way, these guys
must be very familiar with marxism-leninism, why do you think they
are disillusioned?
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


> At 02:13 PM 11/15/96 -0500, Zoli Szekely wrote:
> >ESB again about the GENERAL IMPRESSION stuff:
> >>         This is how the Hungarian right's mind works: conspiracy,
> >> conspiracy, conspiracy!!
> >I don't know about the right, I am on the left.
>         Oh, my God! I asked you earlier why do you think that you are "on
> the left," that you are a "social democrat." That is the biggest joke in the
> face of the earth. You are a nationalistic rightwinger.
>         Eva Balogh

That's exactly what I am talking about:

> > Working
> > out a "general impression" about Hungary and Hungarian patriotism
> > in the mind of the American people is a vital political interest of
> > some American groups.
> >
> > It is no more than standard technique of manufacturing a public mind-
> > set which makes easier policy making and some kind of legislations
> > concerning Central European nations.
> >
> > I would suggest that you cut back your fascination about conspiracy
> > theories, before you go completely nuts.
> >                                                            Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: The Tocsik Affair (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:11 PM 11/16/96 -0600, George Kantor wrote:
>The anatomy of the Privatization in Hungary is the anatomy of the Tocsik
>The Prime Minister of Hungary, Mr. Horn announced that he will request from th
>President,that as of October 15, 1996 Mr. Suchman, Trade and Commerce Minister
>should be dismissed.
>The Prime Minister also requested that the Police should watch Ms. Tocsik
>around the clock, because " she received several life threatening calls".
>At the same time the Prime Minister also said, the Authorities must find
>a "legal way" to take back the paid out commission of HUF 800 Million
>(about $5 million).
>What happened?
>"A contract (krn4tr`kt4) noun
>Abbr. contr., cont.
>1.a. An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written
>     and enforceable by law.
>  b. The writing or document containing such an agreement.
>2.   The branch of law dealing with formal agreements between parties."
>The American Heritage. Dictionary of the English Language,
>Third Edition copyright ) 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version
>licensed from InfoSoft International, Inc. All rights reserved.
>Ms. Tocsik was hired as a result of a bidding contest. As  the winner she was
>hired to advise and counsel the Privatization Authority to return certain
>State owned Properties to Municipal Authorities. The multi Billion Forint
>transaction resulted in HUF 804 million commission, which was paid.
>I don't try to defend Ms. Tocsik or any participants or victims in this case.
>I have no knowledge of any factual details except some press readings,
>which sources - by my judgment- could be questionable by Western Standards.
>The problem as I see; in the new Democratic Hungary the Law is not Law if it
>is inconvenient to the Government.
>A contract is not a contract, unless the Government like the result.
>The Police regulates Ms. Tocsik's movements and levied all her assets.
>There is no indictment, no judgment, just political pressure from major
>I am open to discuss this case.

        Of course, I agree with George. According to American law a contract
cannot be unilaterally broken. After the initial flurry of very negative
articles on Tocsik some political commentators realized that the general
upheaval around this affair stems mostly from envy: 804 million Hungarian
forints earned within a few months sound absolutely obscene as far as an
average Hungarian is concerned. (On the other hand, if we read in the New
York Times that such and such consulting firm earned 5 some million dollars
in five or six months we don't even bat an eyelash!) As some commentators
said Hungarian society, after forty years of existing socialism where even
the most privileged wasn't that rich, doesn't tolerate such incomes. They
also pointed out that Marta Tocsik had a valid contract according to which
she was to receive a commission which would be 10 percent of the price of
the real estate. Certainly, Marta Tocsik cannot be blamed that she was so
persuasive that she managed to convince many municipalities to accept the
APV's offer.

        I think the prosecutor's office (I am not sure who is bringing
charges against Tocsik) realized the absurdity of trying to get Tocsik by
attacking the contract. Instead, they tried to get her on misappropriation
(hu"tlen kezele's in Hungarian), on the one hand, and tax evasion, on the
other. Her lawyer argued, I think convincingly, that Marta Tocsik doesn't
own any of the funds of the APV and therefore she couldn't have possibly
misappropriated them. As for the tax evasion, she received the monies only
recently and was not yet obliged to file her taxes. Looking at the case from
here both avenues the authorities took seem dead ends to me.

        Lately I have been reading about a new legal twist and considering
that I know absolutely nothing about Hungarian law I can't tell whether it
is based on real knowledge or the equally ignorant commentators simply make
it up in order to have a case against Tocsik. New voices are heard that not
all contracts are valid. In this case it means that although there was a
legal contract services rendered in no way equalled the size of the payment.
In plain language: Marta Tocsik made her money too easily! Now, in my
American-trained mind, this is hogwosh. I am almost certain that there is no
such provision in American law. One could say that the board of directors of
the APV were fools for giving such a large percentage of the monies to Marta
Tocsik, but that's all one could say. One couldn't say that Marta Tocsik is
guilty because she managed to have a contract which was very favorable to her.

        However, there might be another complication here. Let's say that
Marta Tocsik was simply the "frontman" in this affair and actually she was
used, for a fee, of course, to launder money from the privatization office
into the coffers of the MSZP and/or the SZDSZ. According to the Hungarian
press the parties simply don't have enough money and the governing parties,
taking advantage of their positions, simply syphoned some money from
privatization into their own bank accounts through different
"subcontractors" Marta Tocsik allegedly hired. My meager legal knowledge
stops here. I don't even know what kind of laws are on the books concerning
such a possibility. Given the very large holes in the fabric of Hungarian
laws I wouldn't be surprised if there was absolutely no grounds to
prosecute. Perhaps someone more familiar with Hungarian law could help out.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Hungarian Sadness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Every year around the time of the anniversary of the Hungarian Revolution
, my husband becomes very moody , hostile , and very sensitive.
I attribute this to some memory he  has of the Revoution. He will not
admit this or seek counseling.
Anyone else encounter similar situation and how did they cope.
Thank you,
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> That is the biggest joke in the
> face of the earth. You are a nationalistic rightwinger.
>         Eva Balogh
Well, I exactly know this kind of rubbish speech.
It's very characteristic!!
And Orban Viktor is the granson of Adolf, isn't he!?  ;-)  ;-)

I don't accept this kind of characterization anyway,
from a person who is not ceasing to shovel her
half-baked intellectuel guano on the defenceless
poors and the downthrodded of my country.

Hungarian people are not worse in any bit than the
American people. And your moral obligation should be
to help the poors of the nation and not to throw them
into the pit of uneasing capitalistic exploitation.

And yes, I have a nation, have you?!        Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan Szekely tries to convince us that he is a social democrat. I
claim that he is not a social democrat but rather a rightwinger. Zoltan
Szekely thinks that I am basing this *faulty* opinion on GENERAL IMPRESSION
(emphasize by Zoltan Szekely) and this general impression is totally based
on nothing. I am basing my opinion on your utterances about religion, about
homosexuals, about politics, and I found nothing which reminds me of a
social democrat. Your opinions on many subjects are associated with the
right and not the left.

        But you can ask other people's opinion as well. Somehow I don't
think that too many people would call you a social democrat.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: nasty Orban... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov 15 21:09:48 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #848:
>>        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy
>        "God be with you" is a pretty good equivalent but because we live in
>a secular society, I would advise you not to use it.
>        Eva Balogh

Why?  I happen to like his signature line and perhaps others do, too.  It is
unique, homey and so much better than many others on this list.  Please don't
be so crabby...


PS.  The correct translation would be: God be with us; it may not be very
idiomatic in English, but it has a real Hungarian touch to it.
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:16 PM 11/17/96 -0500, Zoli Szekely wrote:

>I don't accept this kind of characterization anyway,
>from a person who is not ceasing to shovel her
>half-baked intellectuel guano on the defenceless
>poors and the downthrodded of my country.

        Well, we are not going to argue who has more half-baked "intellectuel
(sp!) guano (it is a good thing that we have a seashore around here as
opposed to Hungary) you or I, but somehow I have this nagging feeling that
most people would pick you!!

>Hungarian people are not worse in any bit than the
>American people.

        No, they are not, but they are not better either. And more
importantly, whatever their shortcomings they should not be hidden from view.

>And your moral obligation should be
>to help the poors of the nation

        Unfortunately, "poors" won't do, but if you want to help "the poors
of the nation," please pick up your bags and leave.

>and not to throw them
>into the pit of uneasing capitalistic exploitation.

        You make me sick, fellow!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Hungarian Sadness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:07 PM 11/17/96 GMT, you wrote:

>Every year around the time of the anniversary of the Hungarian Revolution
>, my husband becomes very moody , hostile , and very sensitive.
>I attribute this to some memory he  has of the Revoution. He will not
>admit this or seek counseling.
>Anyone else encounter similar situation and how did they cope.
>Thank you,

        Well, maybe it has something to do with October 1956. I don't know.
But at least your note allows me to write about something which made me a
bit sad myself.

        The 1956 Institute just published a three-volume handbook of the
revolution. The first volume covers the actual events, the second the
bibliography of the revolution and the third is entitled *Megtorla's e's
emle'keze's* [Revenge and remembrance]. In it one finds bibliographical data
of those who paid with their lives. It also lists all the more important
trials. At the end there are some incredible statistics. First I will start
with the statistics.

        Over 19,000 people were wounded during the revolution, most of them,
of course, in Budapest. Approximately 2,652 people died in the fighting.
(The real number is most likely higher than that because often the cause of
death was put down as "natural" instead of "victim of armed conflict." Most
of the people died in the month of November: 1,168 as opposed to 990 in
October. 97 "kids" died--they were under 15 years old; 414 were between 15
and 19 years old; and 516 between 20 and 24 years old. Workers constituted
53 percent of the victims. 58,821 Soviet soldiers took part in the quelling
of the revolution. 669 died, 1,540 were wounded and 51 disappeared. 14,378
people were sentenced. 229 people were condemned to death. 193,885 people
left Hungary and only 11,447 returned. 72 percent of them were between age
of 15 and 39. Fifty-three percent of the ones who left Hungary came from

        Reading the biographies of those who were condemned to death takes a
strong heart. The biographies are arranged according to the dates of
execution, starting with Jo'zsef Solte'sz (August 30, 1927-December 15,
1956) and ending with La'szlo' Nickelsburg (April 10, 1924-August 26, 1961).
But, of course, one always gets most sentimental and most touched when it
hits close to home. And it hit home when I got to Miklo's Gimes (December
22, 1917-June 16, 1958). Gimes was executed along with Imre Nagy and Pal
Maleter. His biography reads like this:

        "He was arrested in Budapest on December 5, 1956. On June 15, 1958
the Supreme Court's People's Soviet (Legfelsobb Birosag Nepbirosagi Tanacsa)
under the chairmanship of Ferenc Vida condemned him to death without the
right of appeal. Next day he was executed.

        "His parents were psychiatrists and he himself was planning to be a
doctor, but he couldn't finish his studies which he began in Szeged. During
the war he was drafted into a [Jewish] labor battalion from where he escaped
in the summer of 1944 and he joined the army of Tito. He returned to Hungary
in January 1945 and joined the communist party. Worked as a journalist at
Szabad Nep. After 1953 he became a follower of Imre Nagy and as a result he
was dismissed from Szabad Nep and was transferred to Magyar Nemzet. In May
1955 during a party meeting he demanded the re-examination of the Rajk
trials. As a result he was stripped of his party membership and was fired
from his job. First he worked as a librarian and later as a copy editor. He
was one of the leading figures of the Imre Nagy circle. His political views
were more radical and more democratic than most of the people in that group.

        "During the revolution he and his friends began a daily paper called
*Magyar Szabadsag* [Hungarian Freedom]. After November 4, 1956 he became one
of the leading figures of the intellectual opposition: he began editing an
underground paper called *Oktober Huszonharmadika,* and began the
organization of an opposition organization called Magyar Demokratikus
Fuggetlensegi Mozgalom" [Hungarian democratic independence movement]. On
December 5, 1956 he was arrested by Soviet troops."

        Thus Gimes was one of those "disillusioned marxists" Gyorgy Kadar
was talking about so disparangingly. He gave his life for Hungary and for
democracy. I didn't know Miklos Gimes. I didn't know what he looked like; I
didn't know that he was Jewish; I didn't know that he was in a labor
battalion; I didn't know that he escaped; I didn't know that he joined
Tito's forces; I didn't know when--or at all--he joined the communist party.
I didn't even know that he and I had anything in common. And I especially
didn't know that he and I were involved on the same project in November
1956. Because it was my typewriter which produced those few issues of
*Oktober Huszonharmadika* Gimes's underground paper! He was arrested on
December 5 and a few days later the young man who was our go-between shared
his suspicion with me that the editor/editors of the paper are people "very
close to Imre Nagy." Two days later I was on my way to Austria.

        And please, super-patriots, those of you who think that being a
disillusioned marxist is a cardinal sin, please, think again. And I ask you,
super-patriots, what did you do during the Kadar regime, if anything? Did
you move a finger? Did you try to fight for democracy and independence? As
far as I know you didn't! So, stop lecturing me about patriotism. I did my
bit. Did you?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Yeah, so am I.  And I hope you're not one of those squeamish little
>who favour the death penalty but, for whatever silly reason, want the act
>be neat, sanitized and accepted.

It doesn't necessarily need to be neat or accepted. Regardless of whether
the method of execution embodies either of those two qualities, the place
of execution will be sanitized after the fact. Health department rules,
you know. I accept that significant parts of society will never accept the
application of the death penalty. There are significant parts of this
society which have trouble accepting that the earth is round. That's the
price you pay for living in a democracy. I also accept that the death
penalty may not always be neat in application. Only one of the people
executed in North Carolina since the restoration of the death penalty has
chosen the gas chamber over lethal injection. This self-proclaimed
prisoner of conscience, whose conscience never waxed very eloquently over
the lives of the two people he tortured to death in the course of a home
break-in, sat down in the chair, ran his mouth at the spectators until the
pellets hit the bucket of acid, then began begging and pleading for mercy.
He managed to work himself halfway out of the restraints before finally
collapsing. I imagine death row inmates in future will share your
aesthetic concerns, Joe, and opt for the more dignified exit.

>Sorry, but a painless lethal injection or
>a quiet electrical surge just isn't punishment.  That's what's done to
>chickens and pigs so that they can end up in cellophaned packages at the
>grocery store.  No, the death penalty should be a celebration!  It should
>an event the whole family can value and enjoy.  Dismemberment, burning,
>drowning, gassing, starving, hanging, crucifying, poisoning, beheading,
>anything else we can think of, including a subscription to the HUNGARY
>and the compulsory reading of every post by Peter Soltesz and Zoltan
>can, and should, be used.  It should always be a fun spectacle.

The last-named method, of course, has been adjudged cruel and unusual
punishment by the U.S. Supreme Court. I would be more than happy to ship
every death row inmate in the U.S. to Ontario where they can live out
their lives in tranquillity and serenity. All I ask is that they stay
Sam Stowe

>Joe Szalai

"You can sum up the entire history of the
Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
-- Joe Queenan
+ - Hunger in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In tomorrow's Magyar Hirlap there is a long article about many people (even
children) going hungry in Hungary. Apparently the Hungarian Red Cross and
other charitable organizations are trying to help, but I am sure any help
from anyone would be appreciated. Can we all, occasional or regular
contributors to this list start somehow an action of helping the hungry in
Hungary? I am thinking to something similar to the Help the needy drive The
New York Times starts every year around Thanksgivings day. A good start
would be a list of charitable organizations in Hungary with their addresses.
Possibly someone like Magda Zimanyi could help with this.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Fonyat - is it an Hungarian word HUNGARY.0849..9611 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In HUNGARY.0849..961117 Jorge Fonyat wrote:

> Step by step I am managing to build-up some knowledge...

And Eva Balogh suggested:

> Maybe Magda Zimanyi[...], could look at the Budapest
> telephone directory for you.

So I did. And found 15 Fo'nyads in the directory. If you are
interested i can send names and addresses to you in private E-mail.
Maybe you can find distant relatives.

Best regards

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi