> Felado :  [United States]
Greg's comments are, as usual, brief but illuminating. No doubt there is
something about the different sensibilities here, almost exactly along the
lines suggested by Fussell. But he makes too much of the pilot analogy: what I
tried to say was simply that the _same_ actions come under different light if
the consequences affect only the instigator of the action or if they affect a
number of people. All my examples (the drunken boat captain, the pot-smoking
military commander, and the pilot who loves risky stunts) were meant to
illustrate this principle.

> Felado :  [United States]
>
> [Andra1s] seems to disapprove of Hungarians not having themselves massacred
> in even greater numbers by the Germans in 1944 and by the Russians in 1956.
I thought I expressed rather clearly my disapproval of some Hungarians
massacring other Hungarians (I don't know if this counts as "Hungarians
massacring themselves"), Serbs, refugee Jews and of feeding the SS with such,
but apparently I haven't quite succeeded. As for 1956, I never suggested that
Hungarians should have gone on and fought a war of independence to defend the
accomplishments of the revolution, I merely pointed out that such a war didn't
take place (in spite of some efforts to pretend it did).

Saying that "X didn't happen" is very different from saying that "X should
have happened". As a matter of fact, I think that the pro-German political
direction prior to and during WWII was terrible, and a less pro-German (at
least more neutral, possibly actively anti-fascist) political direction
_should have_ reigned and it _would have_ had better consequences for the
country both morally and practically. I haven't made any similar statement
about 1956, and the wisdom of massive self-sacrifice is dubious. By not taking
the path of armed resistance after November 4, great loss of life was avoided,
and altogether Hungary contributed quite a bit to the collapse of the Soviet
empire. By taking the pro-German path in WWII, great loss of life ensued, and
Hungary contributed nothing to the collapse of the Third Reich.

Andra1s Kornai

>
> On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Eva Durant wrote:
>
> > about taxes: if you are in the top scale, you can
> > afford a few accountants and tax-specialists to tell you
> > how to avoid it altogether... Check it out: the income
> > of the state from income-tax is 90% or more from
> > those, whos money is taxed as they earn.
> > Just to put right an other fallacy: most state benefits
> > are paid out to corprate business, not to social wellfare.
> > I have no data , but you are free to prove me wrong.
> > (I've seen supporting statistics on TV)
> > 
>
> Eva, your terminology is marxist, but you sound more and more like a
> supply-sider all along:->
>
> jim
>

So I know your opinion about me, what is your opinion on what I say
about taxes?

> the Republican Party ideologues in the U.S., you have to avoid confusing
> democracy with capitalism. Democracy at least offers some degree of
> political control against the worst excesses of capitalism. Fascism and
> Marxism-Leninism have simply facilitated the process of handing over the
> henhouse keys to the fox every time they've been put into practice.
>

Fascism is a totalitarian last resort to save
a capitalist system, when it is otherwise not possible
with other, usually democratic-type
structures (e.g.Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Chile etc).

You still did not make a valid argument, why should a system
based on grassroot democracy and present scale of production of goods,
turn totalitarian, when according to democratic decision, it decides
to say - nationalise the top 200 companies and banks?

I would value a straight answer, without any observation about
my personal characteristics/habitat etc.

Geez, Joe. And they think I give you a hard time.

Sam Stowe

HVG just has written, that 15%+ of Portugal is illiterate.
I wonder what is the Mexican figure.
What happens to these countries when US or EU goes through
a financial crises (not an unimaginable scenario...)
Have you no doubts at all, that these are safe avenues to
follow?


>
> Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >George Antony wrote:
> > > Hungary went backwards in its relative position in Europe, considering
> > > economic development and living standards, during its period of
 "socialism".
> > > Now even Greece and Portugal are ahead of Hungary, while they were well
> > > behind before WWII.
>
> > Could you send data about this?  When I visited Greece in the
> > seventies, it's health and education system and rural poverty
> > did not compare favourably.
>
> According to World Bank figures quoted in The Economist, Hungary was bettered
> in per-capita GDP (1993 data, on purchasing-power parity) by the following,
> in ascending order: Thailand, Mexico, Czech Republic, Venezuela,
> Greece, Chile, Malaysia, Argentina, South Korea, Portugal, Taiwan, Israel, th
e
> OECD average, Singapore, Hong Kong (p. 122, 11 March 1995 issue).
>
> The UNDP's Human Development index is a composite measure of life expectancy
> at birth, income (GDP), adult literacy and enrolment in primary, secondary an
d
> tertiary education.  On that table (The Economist, p. 94, 26 August 1995)
> Hungary is bettered by: Venezuela, Czech Republic, Portugal, Chile, South
>  Korea,Argentina, Greece, Israel, plus various OECD countries.  Note that
>  Mexico,
> Thailand and Malaysia are below Hungary now, while Taiwan, Singapore and
> Hong Kong are not shown, figures are for 1992.
>
> > I am curious about the pre-war figures, too.
>
> I have no more time than you to chase up references outside my work.
> You just have to take my word that I read a comparison to that effect quite
> a few years ago, specifically for Greece and Portugal.
>
> > > If by Columbia you mean the South American country ColOmbia, it has been
 the
> > > second best performer in Latin America in economic development over many
> > > decades.  (The first was Chile.)  And dragging a personal fiefdom of a
>  countr
>
> > Economic development based on the drug industry? That is the impression
> > from the media, or was it not appearent for decades?  Is the poverty
> > of the poor there compareble with the Hungarian?  If that is the price
> > of "development"  who wants it?
> > Chile - again, what price for development!
>
> If you read a little more serious press than the one creating the impression
> that Colombia is all about drugs, you would know better: try The Economist
> for one.  Beyond that, I refuse to be dragged into a debate that has no
> relevance to Hungary.
>
> > I do put rational arguments,
>
> There may have been such a case once, but I cannot remember.
>
> > I have no time to research data,
> > you're wellcome to supply it.
>
> That's nice double standards.
>
> > But growth figures are not
> > enough, compare unemployment figures, health and education data,
> > please.
>
> See above.
>
> George Antony

>
> And finally, the newest polls indicate that 51 percent of those asked finds
> the present social order inferior to socialism. They seemed to be worried
> most about the loss of job security. Among the newly received freedoms, they
> consider most important the fact that now they can choose their own
> doctors!!! Least important: they can choose among different parties!!!
> According to 70-80 percent of the population the current differences in
> income are too great. In the past five years the number of those who think
> that the state should pay a greater role in society has grown from 25% to
> 51%.
>

A bit of experience is more influential than the textbooks...
Would any of the politicians admit eventually, that there is
no such thing as "socially conscious" capitalism - or it cannot be
successful for long.  And if they call themselves socialist or
social-democrats, that won't change this simple fact.

>Hello all,
>I've been browsing the list and wonder if anyone can give me the names
>of secondary works in English which deal with Hungary during the so
>called "dark ages". I'd like to find out more on the Avars and the
>Magyars in Hungary -- I would especially like to see illustrated works
>which show artifacts from museums or archaeological sites if possible.
>                                        Thank You
>                                         Paul Gregor
>                                          

Here is a list that I give my students:
The Origins of the Magyars and their Language

Bartha, Antal.  Hungarian Society in the 9th and 10th Centuries.  Budapest
: Akademiai Kiado, 1975.

=46odor, Istv=E1n. In Search of a New Homeland; The Prehistory of the Hungar=
ian
People and the Conquest. Budapest: Corvina, 1975.

Macartney, C. A.  The Medieval Hungarian Historians : A Critical and
Analytical. Cambridge, Eng. : University Press, 1953.

Sinor Denis, "The Earliest Period of Hungarian Turkic Relations," Hungarian
History -  World History.  ed. Gyorgy Ranki. Budapest: Akademiai Kiado,
1984. 1-12.

Vambery, Armin.  Hungary in Ancient, Mediaeval, and Modern Times.  London :
T. Fisher Unwin, 1886.




Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

>Fascism is a totalitarian last resort to save
>a capitalist system, when it is otherwise not possible
>with other, usually democratic-type
>structures (e.g.Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Chile etc).



There is a difference between National Socialism and Fascism. In any case
neither of them has much to do with "saving capitalism." Hard working
historians of Nazism, for example, proved that all classes
voted for Hitler in more or less equal proportion. Very few top
capitalists, or rather businessmen, supported the nazis financially or
otherwise. In Italy Mussolini was very popular until he started his foreign
adventures. In Spain few people clamoured for capitalism. Franco's
military-clerical alliance relied on the peasant support and foreging aid
to restore the old power-structure. Today not even Marxist maintain the old
dogma about the finance-capitalist and lower-middle class nature of
"fascism".

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Jim!

        Just to quickly write - don`t have much time at the moment - that
although I was asking for it, your comments are bunkum!! They are only forced
to spend a certain percentage of their salary. Where do tou think the rest
goes but the bank. Most people with low pay spend most of their money away
through necessity - they `re certainly will not have enough money left away
to put in the bank. And for the governments coffers - well, you have heard
of VAT haven`t you?!



Karcsi

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    *** THIS LIST IS NOT WITHOUT OBJECTION BY HUNGARIANS ***
THIS "HUNGARY" LIST, BY USURPING THE NAME OF A SOVEREIGN DEMOCRATIC
COUNTRY, PRETENDS TO BE INCLUSIVE, OPEN TO ALL. BUT CONTRARY TO ITS
FALSE REPRESENTATION, IT IS ON RECORD OF USING UNILATERAL CENSORSHIP.
PERMITS DEFAMATION (DENIAL) OF HUNGARIAN FREEDOM FIGTHERS OF 1956
("szabadsagharc elmaradt") WHILE HUNGARIAN ANTIDEFAMATION FIGHT IS
ON RECORD OF BEING UNILATERALLY CENSORED.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In addition to the above still standing WARNING, am obliged to file
strong protest based on the observation that unilateral censorship
in this list (predictably) results in rabid provocations from the
side that enjoys the unfair advantage of *not* being censored.

After Kornai's defamation of Hungarians, by publicly denying our
Freedom Fight in 1956, and Hungarian Antidefamation League having
been denied, by unilateral censorship, its right to unhindered self-
defense, Kornai escalates his provocations by "protecting", with out-
right lies, former Hungarian KGB (AVH) members, such as that of the
father of presently ruling liberal party (SZDSZ) Chairman Ivan Peto.
(His e-mail address in Parliament of Republic of Hungary:)


Apparently, Kornai wants to take advantage of the protected status
provocators of innocent Hungarians unfairly enjoy in this list.
Kornai still stands assured that e.g. Janos Kiss is banned by censor-
ship from revealing for the undoubtedly curious reader how shameless
lies of Kornai about Hungarian "KGB" (AVH) members follow from his
father's past and the resulting religious and political confusion
(identity crisis) that Andras Kornai quite evidently still suffers.

Short of such "to the point" revelations that readers might not learn
if censorship of this list is not repealed, I can only fight back by
making some more blatant lies of Kornai evident. First, he attempts
to derail my argument, that fathers' crimes *disqualify* sons from
jobs requiring prosecution of fathers' crimes (for the obvious reason
of conflict of interest). Given Kornai's gross distortion of *my*
point (by his saying "I will not judge the son by the father") I feel
appropriate for the reader to point out that I *never* advocated either
punishment or judgement of sons for their fathers' sins.  However, I
do maintain the point, that we agree with Gerry, that all should be
*disqualified* from jobs persecuting their relatives' crimes.

Kornai, of course would like to sidetrack this issue thus brings up
the outrageous lie that father of Ivan Peto's membership in AVH was
(a) not really a membership as a "secret policeman", and (b) if it
was, was "quite an innocent thing, as the draft was mandatory".

Readers should know from documents and by fact established in Court,
that Ivan Peto's father (Laszlo Peto [Richtmann]) was not at all a
drafted GI, but served voluntarily as lieutenant-colonel (alezredes!)
of the AVH (State Security Force). Yes, it is true that the State
Security Force (AVH) at its peak of power (from Oct. 28,1948) exer-
cised Orwellian control over almost every aspect of life of Hungarians
by its A,B,C,D,E,F Divisions, including iron-fisted control of the
"Iron Curtain". This latter so-called "Boarder Guard" (Hatarorseg)
function was, however, in fact one of the bloodiest and most important
internal security activity, as the very existence of Police-state
(c.f. East Germany 1989) depended on the airtight seal of the borders.
Escapees, even would-be escapees, were mined, shot, and those caught
alive imprisoned for life. This "quite innocent (!)" activity, central
to state security, in which Laszlo Peto took voluntary active part as a
commander responsible for commands is shown e.g. by the fact that Peto
served in Division A of the AVH, together with commander Miklos Bauer.
Latter was called Ko"rmo"s Bauer, since his favorite technique of
interrogation was to pull out, by his hands using forceps, nails of
innocent Hungarians. His son is another high ranking person in SZDSZ,
as Kornai obliquely refers to him in his "characteristic shyness".
Again, I *never* say THE SONS Bauer, Peto, etc. should be punished or
even judged by sins of THE FATHERS Bauer, Peto, etc., but I *do*
maintain that sons of criminals must be *disqualified*, because of
conflict of interest, to be among political rulers of Hungary, lest
such conflict of interest will (and as we know, does) guarantee that
Hungary cannot get rid of the filth hanging over her past.

For the unlikely few who still would like to believe that Ivan Peto's
father (born Laszlo Richtmann) was dragged as an "innocent thing"
into AVH, headed by dreaded Gabor Peter (born Benjamin Eisenberger),
it could be rather revealing that Ivan Peto's father volunteered after
1956 to be Commander in the infamous "Workers' Militia". This is the
same padded-coat facility of Kadar's Security Force in which present
Prime Minister Horn fought, with arms, *against* Hungarian Freedom
Fighters of 1956.

Clearly, there are aspects of the above problems that fall into the
domain that is presently "tabu" in this list with its recently imposed
censorship. If some narrowminded policy wishes to ensure that we bury
our heads into the sand in this list HUNGARY even if HUNGARY (the
Country) does *not* censor use of "freedom of expression" to resolve
these deep conflicts, rather than see them explode later, so be it.

Should there be an explosion however, maybe sooner than you think,
I will be obliged to point out those *responsible*, for instance the
unfair unilateral repression of opinion as endured in this list.

>Readers should know from documents and by fact established in Court,
>that Ivan Peto's father (Laszlo Peto [Richtmann]) was not at all a
>drafted GI, but served voluntarily as lieutenant-colonel (alezredes!)
>of the AVH (State Security Force).

>For the unlikely few who still would like to believe that Ivan Peto's
>father (born Laszlo Richtmann) was dragged as an "innocent thing"
>into AVH, headed by dreaded Gabor Peter (born Benjamin Eisenberger),
>it could be rather revealing that Ivan Peto's father volunteered after
>1956 to be Commander in the infamous "Workers' Militia".

What point aare you making in mentioning the name of these persons before
they magyarized their names? Are you pointing at their Jewish origin if
that is the case? Are you hinting that you do not really consider them
Hungarian? Are you sending out some secret message on race, nation, etc?
Why aren't you identifying Kadar? his religion? Let us call a spade a
spade.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Sandor Lengyel wrote:
 > Being calculating, and a snob in certain respect does not make
 > "restoring the old aristocracy" a true statment.

 Sorry, according to my sources, the expression Antall used was "pozicioba hozn
i
 az arisztokraciat".

 If my sources are correct, the above is a true statement.  If my Hungarian
 translation is not deemed precise enough, please offer another one.

 I do agree with your assessment about the motivation behind Antall's statement
 and actions, but still I think that the objective was more than just grabbing
 a few dollars for Hungary.

 George Antony

On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

>
> What point aare you [Szucs] making in mentioning the name of these persons
before
> they magyarized their names? Are you pointing at their Jewish origin if
> that is the case? Are you hinting that you do not really consider them
> Hungarian? Are you sending out some secret message on race, nation, etc?
> Why aren't you identifying Kadar? his religion? Let us call a spade a
> spade.
>
> Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
> 
>
Peter, it must be a lot of fun getting your goat. If you enjoy being
baited, keep reacting to this sort of thing; if you don't, why not
make it less enjoyable for the baiters, and ignore them? I wish you
would; I personally am about to unsubscribe, because I'm sick of all the
excrement, but you, too, help keep it flowing.

L. J. Elteto
Portland State University

Eva Balogh wrote:

>The article's conclusion is that the party's early hesitance concerning
>policy was not the result of confusion, but the party/government leaders
>tried to follow the wishes of the party's constituency, until it became
>obvious that such policy was unworkable.

It's no wonder that many people in Hungary are disillusioned by the new
democracy.  Whether or not you agree with the party or it's policies, it is
unhealthy for democracy to be responsive primarily to the needs of capital.
This isn't very different from the old 'communist' system.  Sure, they had
elections and programmes too.  But everything had to fit within the
socialist structure.  Criticism was also ok, so long as it improved the
socialist system.  I'm sure that for most people 'everything new is old again'.

Joe Szalai

Louis Elteto wrote:

: I personally am about to unsubscribe, ... but you, too, help keep it flowing.

It `flows on within you and without you' (with apologies to Lennon and
McCartney. Or was that Harrison?)


--Greg Grose

Tudna valaki segiteni egy forditasi kerdesben? A "choke" magyar
megfelelojet keresem. (A kovetkezo osszefuggesben: az a valami, ami
inditaskor tobb levegot ad a motornak)

Ha valaki tud segiteni, kerem, a cimemre kuldje a valaszt. Nagyon koszonom
elore is.

Agnes