This is my second attempt to post this.  The first one didn't make the Hix
list.

In article >, I asked Sam Stowe,
in what I still believe to be clear and plain English, the following questions:

>Where has Marxism-Leninism been tried?  And what,
>specifically, did the Marxist-Leninists do that others, i.e., non
>Marxist-Leninists, did not do?
>
>Please be as specific as possible with your answer and make sure that
>there are NO examples of non M-L'ists doing the same things.  You won't be
>able to do it.  Are you up to the challenge anyway?

Then at 11:16 AM 3/31/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, rhapsodically wrote:

>There is nothing unique in the Hungarian experience with Marxism-Leninism.
>Nothing. It has been repeated over and over again in nations throughout
>the world with varying degrees of brute force applied to keep the masses
>in line. Sorry, comrade. On this one you lose.

I lose?  Beam me up Scotty.  Sam is the only one who believes that his
"software" problem has been solved.  Clearly, it continues to malfunction.

Joe Szalai

In article >, Doug Hormann >
writes:

>Sam,  Make that a BIG nerve!:-)
>
>Regards,
>
>Doug
>
>
>

You still wish. And they're still not going to believe you were one of the
lead defense attorneys at the O.J. Simpson trial.
Sam Stowe

In article >, Joe Szalai
> scrawls with one, trembling hand:

>I lose?  Beam me up Scotty.  Sam is the only one who believes that his
>"software" problem has been solved.  Clearly, it continues to
malfunction.
>
>Joe Szalai

Ah, sweet invective. I have a little question for this list's readers:
What would the public reaction to Joe Szalai be if he stood up in one of
the busiest public spaces in Budapest -- a square, a Metro station,
whatever -- and loudly declaimed his belief that Marxism-Leninism had not
yet really been tried and the Hungarian people ought to proceed to do so
immediately? (This question presumes that Joe is doing this in fluent
Hungarian.)
Sam Stowe

84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful,
small apartment house of Budapest' s exclusive Rozsadomb disrict
(Nagybanyai Street) is for immediate sale. It features telephone,
garage, hardwood floor and gas central heating. Easy access to the
city: downtown is just a short, convenient 15-minute ride by public
transportation. If you are interested, please send an E-mail to
.

Aniko says concerning the endless discussion between Sam and Joe:

>OK...*BOYS!!!*  (get it so far?)... this is about the third reference to
>D.H's life story... since I have not been privy to any of it, would
>someone be kind enough to supply???
>
>Thanks and regards,
>Aniko

>
>PS...  I am sure that it will make for some more interesting reading, than
>the bashing I have wittnessed so far.. back and forth...forth and
>back...and have no doubt that it will be a far sight more interesting
>thatn the LM's fantasy!!!

        I can only agree that the discussion is becoming tedious. It is time
to change the subject.

        Eva Balogh

As you may have noticed I changed the "subject" from WWI and WWII to "the
Kadar regime. Eva Durant has this to say about it

>2. That in Hungary inspite the totalitarian conditions
>   there were positive developments; brainwashing was
>   not particilarily successful and was given up
>   gradually.

        First of all, I would like to have more details on these "positive
developments." As far as I can see Hungary, with the rest of the
East-European countries, failed to close the gap between themselves and the
rest of Europe. In fact, that gap became wider after 1948-49. The mess which
was left will take decades to eradicate--environmental damage, for example.
The economic and social system could be kept up only through foreign
borrowing for which right now the poor Hungarian people pay dearly. The
communist leadership gave up power voluntarily because they knew that the
game was up--they didn't want to take the odium of fixing all the damage
which was done to the country and its people.

        As for the brainwashing. I disagree with Eva Durant. Brainwashing
was successful--but not the primitive early brainwashing but the subtle,
clever brainwashing. Oh, it worked all right. It is enough to talk to the
people who are adults today--let's say from 30 to 60.


>There were internationally accepted
>   successes in the arts, sciences etc,

        Again, I would like to get details.

>and Hungary
>   seemed to possess comparable number of happy people
>   to other countries.  Proof of this theory is that
>   the number of people who chosen to leave was decreasing
>   even though there was easier to do,

        As somebody said (I think rightly), that the government let people
out of the cage every three years and gave them about a 100 dollars/per
person to live on for two weeks. So, they took half their larder along and
slept in their cars but they were still poor as mice. The West didn't look
terribly good in comparison to the modest but steady circumstances at home.
Plus, let's not forget that by the 1970s it was almost impossible to receive
political asylum. You had to prove that you were fleeing for your life and
in the so-called "soft dictatorship" this was almost impossible to prove.
Also, if I recall, "hostages" had to be left behind--like your children--in
order to make sure that you are going to return. The numbers of those who
didn't return were still fairly high and at one point Comrade Kadar
seriously thought of curtailing foreign travel in order to prevent such
occurences. (Since Eva Durant gets the HVG: not long ago there was an
interesting article about all this in this publication.)

        Eva Balogh

>2. That in Hungary inspite the totalitarian conditions
>   there were positive developments; brainwashing was
>   not particilarily successful and was given up
>   gradually.


        Compared to what?  As Eva Balogh stated, Eastern Europe continued to
decline in direct comparison to its Western European neighbors.  Sort of
like putting money into a low yield bank account when all your friends
are making a killing on the stock market.


Regards,

Doug Hormann

At 10:36 AM 4/1/96 -0800, Eva Balogh, remarking on Aniko Dunfords comments
about "Re: WWI or WWII?" wrote:

>        I can only agree that the discussion is becoming tedious. It is
>time to change the subject.

I'd love to change the topic.

I've twice asked Eva Balogh if she rebuked her relatives for allowing a
restaurant, (which was in a building that her relatives owned) to
discriminate against gypsies.

Her silence, towards readers of this list, and, presumably, towards her
relatives, speaks volumes of how and why discrimination against a group of
people in Hungary can go on for a millennium.

Let's break the silence!

Joe Szalai

At 07:24 AM 4/1/96 -0500, Sam Stowe evasively wrote:

>Ah, sweet invective. I have a little question for this list's readers:
>What would the public reaction to Joe Szalai be if he stood up in one of
>the busiest public spaces in Budapest -- a square, a Metro station,
>whatever -- and loudly declaimed his belief that Marxism-Leninism had not
>yet really been tried and the Hungarian people ought to proceed to do so
>immediately? (This question presumes that Joe is doing this in fluent
>Hungarian.)

Now you're assuming that I'm a proponent of Marxism-Leninism.  I am not!
And I have no desire to make a fool of myself.  Heck!  You already do a good
job of that.  What day is it today...?

Maybe you can understand my point better if I give it a twist.   Change
Marxism-Leninism with Christian.  Imagine that a nation, any nation, under
god, got rid of a pro-Christian government after many decades of Christian
charity, bible study, prayers, church attendance, brainwashing, witch
burnings, and inquisitions.  Now imagine someone coming along and saying
that this nation didn't have a real Christian government.  No doubt you
would jump all over this person and insist that Christianity HAD been tried.
Do you want to give my original question another try?

Joe Szalai

PS. Don't forget to say your prayers tonight, Sam.  In tongues, if you can't
say them in Hungarian.  OK?

At 10:36 AM 4/1/96 -0800, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        As for the brainwashing. I disagree with Eva Durant. Brainwashing
>was successful--but not the primitive early brainwashing but the subtle,
>clever brainwashing. Oh, it worked all right. It is enough to talk to the
>people who are adults today--let's say from 30 to 60.

I'm so happy that there's NO brainwashing here in the West.  Whenever I hear
a co-worker hum a tune from a commercial I don't think that they're
brainwashed.  They're just humming a catchy tune.

If we were brainwashed, how would we know?  Or is this just a case of the
unwashed calling the kettle black?

Joe Szalai

Joe Szalai:

>I've twice asked Eva Balogh if she rebuked her relatives for allowing a
>restaurant, (which was in a building that her relatives owned) to
>discriminate against gypsies.
>
>Her silence, towards readers of this list, and, presumably, towards her
>relatives, speaks volumes of how and why discrimination against a group of
>people in Hungary can go on for a millennium.
>
>Let's break the silence!

        All right, Joe! Since you have an odd way of thinking, let me
explain how I see things. Let's assume, you and your friends enter a
restaurant and you see that all tables have cards on them which say:
"Occupied." You, being a "stupid," "naive" (take your pick) "American," are
surprised. "Oh," you say to your companions who know the scene better than
you, "all the tables are occupied." And one of your companions offers the
explanation that the most likely reason for those "reserved" tables is that
the proprietors want to pick and choose their customers. Well, if one
followed Joe Szalai's advice, at this point, you, the innocent, stupid,
naive, (take your pick) American will raise hell! You are going to tell your
companions/relatives that they ought to fire the proprietors of the
restaurant. They must break the lease; they must tell them that they are
real rats who discriminate against minorities. Well, I don't think that I
have to go much further: it is obvious immediately that they are quite a few
things wrong with this approach. (1) The information you received from your
Hungarian companion is simply a guess on his/her part. They have absolutely
no proof that this is the actual case. (2) The Hungarian legal system is so
full of holes that there is absolutely nothing on the books which would
prevent the proprietor to do what he/she just did. So, if your
friends/relatives followed your stupid advice and tried to fire the tenants,
that is, the proprietors of the restaurant, most likely the only people who
would get into trouble would be your friends/relatives. When a man like
Albert Szabo--an outright Nazi--gets off the hook in Budapest's highest
court, I don't think that Joe Szalai's approach would take you very far.

        Moreover, on the personal level, I might believe that actually my
friend/relative is describing the situation accurately, does that entitle me
to meddle in his/her affairs? Does it allow me to create a scene and
"demand" from her actions which might be disadvantageous or embarrassing to
her? I don't think that I had that privilege. I might tell her at home that
I find all those reserved tables personally offensive but I don't think that
I have the right to go further than that. Moreover, if there was a person
who acted under the circumstances the way Joe Szalai suggested, I would call
that person--and here forgive me for the word--a prick!

        Eva Balogh

At 07:30 PM 4/1/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I'm so happy that there's NO brainwashing here in the West.  Whenever I hear
>a co-worker hum a tune from a commercial I don't think that they're
>brainwashed.  They're just humming a catchy tune.

Hey, Joe,

I prefer a  commercial on a radio or TV station I can turn off anytime I
wish or in a newspaper I can choose not to read to a brainwashing communist
"seminar". Missing from those seminars caused many people to loose their
jobs or opportunities for promotions.

>If we were brainwashed, how would we know?  Or is this just a case of the
>unwashed calling the kettle black?

Please speak for yourself. I think I know when somebody tries to brainwash me.

Gabor D. Farkas

I have contacted an Orthodox Jewish friend of mine whose father used to be a
rabbi in Hungary. My friend told me that he thinks the song was an original
Hungarian folk song, and that the rabbi borrowed it.

However, he (my friend) also promised to get me more detailed information
and if I get it I will publish it here.

Gabor D. Farkas

Eva Durant wrote:

>The points I usualy make:
>1. The original conception prescribes democracy
>   as a condition as an environment to any collectivisation.
>   The proposition is, that the political systems that operate
>   without this condition would necessarily fall.

Almost perfect, if you add to this that collectivisation is not really
possible by democratic way than you can have an idea why ML fails. If
you have different opinion (and I bet you do :-)), tell me how to nationalize
my fictive factories if I do not want to sell them. No, don't tell me
that I will understand and see the greater good, because I am a bad 'burzsuj'.

>2. That in Hungary inspite the totalitarian conditions
>   there were positive developments; brainwashing was
>   not particilarily successful and was given up
>   gradually.

Hum, hum, well, in your case it was quite successful. (Just kidding! :-))

Janos

At 05:25 PM 4/1/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>I prefer a  commercial on a radio or TV station I can turn off anytime I
>wish or in a newspaper I can choose not to read to a brainwashing communist
>"seminar". Missing from those seminars caused many people to loose their
>jobs or opportunities for promotions.

Hmm.  Just like today.  Except now it's called corporate "seminar".  Endless
"improvment", "service", and "empowerment" seminars are always being offered
in the corporate West.  But woe to the employee who doesn't partake in these
voluntary floor shows.

>Please speak for yourself. I think I know when somebody tries to brainwash me.

I can't argue with that!

Joe Szalai

Tovarisch Szalai wrote:

>relatives, speaks volumes of how and why discrimination against a group of
>people in Hungary can go on for a millennium.

Does anyone know when the gypsies came to Hungary? I know they originally from
India.

Janos

Eva Balogh asks if ,,cadik" status ran in the Taub family--

I wish I knew!  The general practice among hassidim, however, was for the
reputation to run in certain families, for example, the Teitlebaums's among
the Szatmar.  But individual ,,rebbes" could also "earn" the status either
during their lives or after their deaths.

Udv.,
Be'la

Eva Balogh wrote at some length about her disagreement with Eva Durant
about conditions under the Kadar regime.  I have not been following all
the discussion, but my impression of the impact of, let us say, agit-
prop, on the older generation, and even some of the younger ones, is
pretty much as Eva Balogh sees it.  The view that older Hungarians in
general have of the world bears only the faintest resemblance to the view
in "normal" countries.
        Part of this isno doubt due to Hungary's isolation during the Com-
mie period, but much of it must I think be laid at the door of the complete-
ly distorted picture presented by the regime.  Even Western sources like
RFE and VOA had, apparently, little impact on the "cognitive map" of
Hungarians.  What they seem to know is that the West is rich, and somehow
"democratic," but most have no inkling what either of these terms actually
means, and they have even less as to how we got that way.
        An old, possibly apochryphal, Hungarian saying has it that "money is
a gift from God to spent for pleasure."  Such a vision of the world is hard-
ly conducive to becoming either rich *or* democratic,and the Kadar regime
did liitle, if anything, to help.

Udv.,
Be'la

This just came my way.  Grab the chance, folks, while you can!

Good luck!
Martha

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 14:46:35 EST
From: Sandy >

        CALL FOR VOLUNTEER INTERPRETERS FOR THE OLYMPICS

  There is a need for volunteer interpreters to work the Olympic Games in
Atlanta this summer. The volunteer must have a place to stay before being
considered. The need is greatest for the less commmonly spoken languages, ie.
Arabic, Hungarian, Russian, Polish, Portugese. There is also a need for German.
French, Spanish and Japanese language spots are filled at this point.
  One would need to take a proficiency test. The Language Hotline number is
404-224-5407. It is voice mail. Leave your name and number, language you speak,
the fact that you do have lodging and if you have any strengths working with
a particular sport vocabulary. You must jump on this quickly, as they hope to
have all positions filled by April 7. Good luck.