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1 Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: beer/god/Sartre (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
6 Payton Place (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Payton Place (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: buckley's (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was Re: The Slovak d (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

a while ago I asked why it is "unfeasible" or "unrealistic" for
hungary to join austria nad switxerland in a "neutral corridor' in
central europe.

no answer yet. is that because there isn't one?

+ - Re: beer/god/Sartre (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994 18:29:26 EDT paul said:
>Are you serious?  I would have expected that small town USA in the 1930 was
>conservative on social/moral issues.  Is this a false image from watching too
> many
>movies?  Didn't parrents forbid there children from such morally questionable
>arrangements, back in the days when kids listened to their parents.

Sorry to disabuse you of your illusions.  Small town USA with its
conservative, Bible-reading population sitting around on front porches
on Sunday afternoon and chatting with the neighbors never existed
outside of Hollywood.  A better analogy is Agatha Christie's Miss
Marple who often remarked "There's a lot of wickeness in villages."

When Grace Metalious published a book entitled *Peyton Place* I was
living in a small Midwestern city.  One of my friends from the old
home town telephoned me.  "Have you read the book?"
"Yes," I answered.

"Didn't it make you sick?" he asked.

"What do you mean?"  I asked.

"We could have written that thing and made a fortune!"

We then spent some time comparing people from our town to characters
in the novel.  We could, indeed, have written the book!

The HUNGARY list will not be interested in reading lengthy accounts
of the intricate inner-workings of small-town America, but it would
include adultery, sex with various domestic farm animals, nasty
tavern brawls, incest, and many other features of modern life that
went on behind the picket fences and quiet streets.  Yes, we had
a number of couples who lived together "without benefit of clergy"
and yes, we were strongly advised by our parents to walk the
straight and narrow path.  And, as today, most of us conformed
to some degree with the conventional morality.  I was a nerd,
and led a very conventional life.  But I also trapped illegal
furs, stole whiskey from my father's supply (replacing it with
tea), and won my share of drag races using an 8-cylinder Hudson
formerly owned by a biker who had planed the head and relieved
the exhaust ports.  I could out-drag guys with Olds 88s.  My
father who bought the car second-hand, never knew what was under
the bonnet.

Paul, this hasn't much to do with Hungary, and we are going to
get the equivalent of a battery of missiles for this!

+ - Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994 16:10:56 -0700 Greg Grose said:
>My friendly Merriam-Webster says:
>dreck n
>[Yiddish *drek* & German *dreck*, from Middle High German *drec*;
> akin to OE *threax* rubbish, Latin *stercus* excretement]: trash, rubbish
--My Webster's Collegiate (9th ed.) agrees with you.  My Brockhaus says
only that Dreck means "dirt, filth, mud" and gives a series of idiomatic
expressions including some vulgar applications.  My Concise Oxford, in
proper British fashion, ignores the whole thing.  I stand corrected and
apologize in sixteen different positions as Inspector Alleyn would say.

One learns a lot on the HUNGARY list.  I am now becoming an expert
in hydrology as well.  This only proves my contention that Hungarians
are highly sophisticated people with many interests.  We non-Hungarians
can learn a lot from you!

Warm regards,

der Dreckfink
+ - Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 16 Sep 1994 19:25:22 EDT paul said:
> Greg wrote:
>>The equally friendly German-English online dictionary at
>> http://www.fmi.uni-passau.de/htbin/lt/ltd
>Can someone make sense of this e-mail address format for me?  I've seen such
>addresses before, but hell if I understand what it means.  Whatever happened t
--It's an on-line archive like an ftp site, except that it is on
World Wide Web out of the University of Passau in Germany.  The stuff
after .de refers to the directory and the file location of the information.
Sehen Sie?

> the
>good old days, when people had addresses like: 
--Life gets complicated, doesn't it?

d. D. (with apologies to d. a.)
+ - Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

d.a writes:

> a while ago I asked why it is "unfeasible" or "unrealistic" for
> hungary to join austria nad switxerland in a "neutral corridor' in
> central europe.

Actually, this is probably more feasible than Hungary becoming a nuclear power.

The two word answer, is probably History and Geography.

We can however make some comparisons, from the 1993 CIA World Factbook:


Terrain:  mostly mountains (Alps in south, Jura in northwest) with a
central plateau  of rolling hills, plains, and large lakes

International disputes:  none

Land boundaries:  total 1,852 km, Austria 164 km, France 573 km,
Italy 740 km, Liechtenstein  41 km, Germany 334 km


Terrain:  in the west and south mostly mountains (Alps); along the
eastern and northern margins mostly flat or gently sloping

International disputes:  none

Land boundaries:  total 2,496 km, Czech Republic 362 km, Germany
784 km, Hungary 366 km, Italy  430 km, Liechtenstein 37 km,
Slovakia 91 km, Slovenia 262 km, Switzerland  164 km


Terrain:  mostly flat to rolling plains

International disputes:  Gabcikovo Dam dispute with Slovakia;
Vojvodina taken from Hungary and  awarded to the former
Yugoslavia by treaty of Trianon in 1920

Land boundaries:  total 1,952 km, Austria 366 km, Croatia 292 km,
Romania 443 km, Serbia and  Montenegro 151 km (all with Serbia),
Slovakia 515 km, Slovenia 82 km,  Ukraine 103 km

Note:  landlocked; strategic location astride main land routes between
Western  Europe and Balkan Peninsula as well as between Ukraine
and Mediterranean basin

Naturally, none of these factors are relevant unless A) one is willing to be
influenced by traditional geopolitical/strategic thinking; or, B) one's
potential adversaries are or may be so influenced.

Off the top of my head, I'd say another factor'd be whether or not Hungary's
neighbors would have much faith in Hungary's commitment to neutrality,
non-aggression, and all- around benignity.

+ - Payton Place (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


   I have read your *Payton Place* reminiscences with great
interest. You should not worry about any *missiles*, you most
certainly won't get any from me. It is true that the story
does not strictly relate to Hungary but, on the other hand,
you should remember that many of us on the list are recently
or newly *cooked* Yankees (the outside world does not know,
or care about, the domestic differences :-)). Accordingly,
I am very much interested in stories about *small-town*

   I have long suspected that Payton Place wasn't a singular
and fictional place. Your story proves this to a degree. I
guess some people need to believe in the *good old days*
scenario in order to be able to long for something different.
They need to believe that the previous generation was better
than the present one. In my view, this is, of course, non-
sense. We are of the same generation, so I am able to see
this from both sides. And the 60s generation does not have
a claim on sainthood, but it still tries to convince its
youngsters of this.

   This *longing for the good old days* syndrom is not
unique to this country. All countries, all societies have
it. Just look at present day Hungary. In a rather real
sense, the election results are manifestation of such
desires. I know this is a rather simplistic approach, but
it is not very far off.

   Amos - the nostalgic :-)

*  *                   Amos,..."not the famous"                 *  *
**             "Cherish yesterday, Dream of tomorrow,             **
**                     and Live for today!"                       **
**                || Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey **
**                ||        Library of Science and Medicine       **
** AMOS J. DANUBE ||   P.O.Box 1029, Piscataway, NJ 08855-1029    **
**                ||     T.:908, 445-2896  Fax: 908, 445-3208     **
**                ||      E-mail:       **
+ - Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Imi Bokor writes:
> a while ago I asked why it is "unfeasible" or "unrealistic" for
> hungary to join austria nad switxerland in a "neutral corridor' in
> central europe.

> no answer yet. is that because there isn't one?

> d.a.
There are probably many answers and many different types of neutrality.
Even the neutrality of Austria and Switzerland are different. One of the
answers is probably economics, another is the attitude of neighbors. To my
knowledge for example Switzerland has a strong economy, tied to many other
countries in its economical activities and on a comperative basis a strong
military. Austria, not neccesarily through solely its own actions, ended up
"neutralized" due to major powers negotiations, by being a borderland
between the two major camps of the time.(IMHO, The Hungarians would have
been very happy to be "neutralized" at the same time Austria was.) Partly
due to its (not self-selected) status, Austria also became much stronger
economically than would have occured otherwise.
Both countries were more developed on a comparative basis, than Hungary
when they became "neutral" (even though to a different degree) and were
less in need of foreign assistance. I do recall the frequent requests to
the UN by Austria regarding its nationality problems, for example in Tyrol,
until the economical well being of those minorities in Italy became so
strong that the issue sort of went away. There was a strong support from
Austria for its minority in Italy, even when some terrorist activity was
taking place in Tyrol. (While it is not the issue here, the degree and type
of nationality freedom in Tyrol should be studied as one potential example)

While I do recall an agreement (or agreements) relating to guarantees of
Switzerlands borders, I do not have my treaty books handy so I can not give
specific reference; the Austrian borders were guaranteed by the 1955
Austrian Peace treaty by major powers.

Can Hungary achieve or should it achieve similar status is really a
question of its population's wishes, but IMHO, even then it will need a
favorable geopolitiocal situation. In all seriousness, I can not forsee
Hungary attacking anybody (except themselves) for the forseeable future,
and as long as the self-gnawing occupies their energy, they are as neutral
as most other neutral countries, except significantly poorer than the ones
cited by you. Also, if I recall correctly, the stated policy of the 1956
revolution was "neutrality", it was not widely respected. So maybe
"neutrality" from some strength (internally or externally guarantable) is
needed to achieve or select that option. Also, as far as "joining" an
existing corridor is concerned, some cooperation from those "joined" is

+ - Re: More ambivalence toward NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

d.a. writes

> a while ago I asked why it is "unfeasible" or "unrealistic" for
> hungary to join austria nad switxerland in a "neutral corridor' in
> central europe.
> no answer yet. is that because there isn't one?

Have you considered Eva Balogh's post of 28 Jul 1994,
under the subject "Re: Hungarian foreign policy?"?

+ - Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Roman Kanala writes:

> It was written on this list:

[ ... etc. etc. etc. ]

> Oooh...    And I used to come to the Hungary list to enjoy a quiet
> environment where people think and bring valuable contributions...
> It's rather difficult to type on a computer keyboard with boxer gloves,
> but there are moments one finds these mountains of nonsense unbearable.

> First, I will have to explain a couple of terms just to know what we
> are speaking about.


I have stated before on another newsgroup that the dam issue can be looked
at various ways, i.e.

1) Environment
2) Energy Needs
3) Geopolitics

Unfortunately, most of these issues are being mixed. The most unfortunate
part is when somebody uses partial (technically disguised) arguments to
support his or her geopolitical feelings.

A thank you is deserved for Roman Kanala for discussing the relevance of
technical parameters for the evaluation.

I am particularly bothered by the impression (I hope wrong) that I got from
the article that Mr Kanala responded to, i.e.that the garbling of science
into other issues, is a seeming trend of presumed journalistic training.

+ - Re: Payton Place (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sat, 17 Sep 1994 15:07:06 EDT Amos Danube said:
>I am very much interested in stories about *small-town*
--My wife says, "Don't encourage Charles.  He'll talk all night
about small-town America."

>guess some people need to believe in the *good old days*
>scenario in order to be able to long for something different.


>They need to believe that the previous generation was better
>than the present one.

--Well, it is in a way.  Our generation was really much tougher.
We had to be, and we were.  Today's youth are wimps by comparison!

                       And the 60s generation does not have
>a claim on sainthood, but it still tries to convince its
>youngsters of this.

--Right on!  They don't know what life is really about.  They came
up at a time of relative affluence and security and think that
depression is something that you take pills for.
>   This *longing for the good old days* syndrom is not
>unique to this country. All countries, all societies have
>it. Just look at present day Hungary. In a rather real
>sense, the election results are manifestation of such
>desires. I know this is a rather simplistic approach, but
>it is not very far off.

--I printed off Mr. van Beek's election results.  I know that
some on the list have been made happy by the MSZP's 33%.  But
given the splintered opposition, I don't quite see the elation.
One of my good British friends believes that it means a rejection
of the market and a beginning of a change back to socialism.  I
don't think it means that.  I think that there was discontent with the
Antall government, but not rejection of a more Western-style state.
I talked to some students in 1991, and I think that their expectations
were unrealistic.  They seemed to see Hungary as the new Japan, while
reality suggested that Mexico was a better comparison.  The operative
thing is that Hungary has to deal with shifting coalitions rather than
a situation with two or three major parties.  The splintering of the
old smallholders' group is evidence of the confusion that seems  to
characterize contemporary Hungary.  As was said earlier by Jeliko
(I think it was, I read it and went on), Hungary's main enemies are
all Hungarian!

--In any case, I appreciate your posting.  Thank you.

+ - Re: buckley's (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > ,
>PS Having kindly explained korifeus/coryphaeus, I'm confident you'll
> us
>as to "Buckley's chance".

in the vernacular, "buckley's" or "buckley's chance" means "no chance' or
"no hope", as in: "you've got three chances: yours, mine and buckley's".

+ - Re: That fascinating Slovak water (Was Re: The Slovak d (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > George Frajkor,

>       Being a bit of a pedant, I am used to dealing with dense

it's better to be knowledgable than pedantic.

>    a good example is how airplanes fly. Even in Hungarian air.  The
>flow of one layer over the top (the layer next to the wing is
>essentially still) lowers the pressure because it is speeded up.

the aviation engineer i asked assured me that the lifting effect is
caused by the shape of the wing causing turbulance above it, hence
"partial vacuum" and so a pressure difference. he assured me that the air
reaches the upper half of the wing at the same speed as the lower half.

but maybe you know better, after all, he is only an aviation engineer and
not a pedant.

+ - Re: Freud snippets on religion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subject: Re: Freud snippets on religion
From: Charles, 
Date: 16 Sep 94 17:20:02 GMT
In article > Charles,
>On Thu, 15 Sep 1994 03:02:08 GMT > said:

>I told you what the basis for my criticism was.

the only justification i have seen from you is that freud did not have a
degree (or some other formal qulification) in theology. what other
reasons do you have?

>Comes to that,
>Freud wasn't trained as a psychiatrist, either, unless you count the time
>he spent with Charcot, from whom he evidently learned little of use to

freud had the psychiatric training that was customary at the time.

>>in fact it was his pursuit of the neurophysiological basis for "mental
>>illness" that led him to psychoanalysis.
>--This greatly depends on whom you read.

i recall it as being his own autobiographical account.

>I am not at the library just
>now, but I recall two alternate readings.  One is that he simply
>operationalized the Jewish theological argument technique knowns as

does this mean that freud *did* know something about theology after all?

>and the other was that he created psychoanalysis because he
>couldn't see a future in neurology in the anti-Jewish Vienna of the
>turn of the century.  You will, however, send me to the library and
>the first thing I'll re-read is his autobiography.  I don't recall
>that he made the claim that he was looking for a physical basis for
>mental illness when he developed psychoanalysis, but you may be
>correct in his intent.

my recollection is that his overall project was the understanding of
mental illness, in particular hysteria and other forms of what we call
"neurosis", and this on a neurophysiological basis. it was in this context
that he came up with his theories. he was the first to admit that they
are not the last word. he even said at one stage that his approach is for
dealing with neuroses and of limited value with psychoses.

he said even later, that he believed that ultimately, when science is
advanced enough, all behaviour will be reduced to physiology,
biochemistry, and so to ultimately to chemistry and physics, i.e. he
was a "physical reductionist"
>>(i) given the reason you gave for dismissing freud's views on religion,
>>do you have formal qualifications in the natural sciences or the
>>philosophy of science to justify your entitlement to pass such judgment?
>--My argument will have to stand on its own merits, not my academic
>qualifications, right?

in my view yes. in the view of others in this group your degrees will
probably carry greater weight.

>>(ii) what are, in your view, "the canons of science"?
>--I am referring, as I think you know, the empirical position briefly
>summarized by the propostions that:
>  1.  The world exists
>  2.  We can only know the world through sense experience (Sense
>      experience implies the ability to measure in some concrete
>      way).
>  3.  If one cannot measure a phenomenon, it doesn't exist.

these canons exclude modern physics from being a science. i can live
with that, but i suggest to you that most speakers of the english
language would consider any notion of "science" which excludes physics
to be a rather idiosyncratic. most people would, i maintain, view physics
as the paradigm science.