Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Size of demonstrations and popularity of Kadar regime (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
2 Language-police State (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #480 (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: your mail (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 The 100 thousand (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Diamonds and trust (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: U.I. (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
8 NEMZET (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Language-police State (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
10 Politika (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Size of demonstrations and popularity of Kadar regime (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There are a couple of things I would like to comment on. One is Andras
Kornai's writing about the size of the MIEP demonstration. Privately I
received a letter from one of those people who think that I am unduly
critical of Csurka's politics. Among other things he mentioned that there are
divergent figures given in different publications of the number of
participants of the demonstration. His assumption, of course, was that this
is all deliberate somehow: the social-liberal press purposely underestimates
the number of demonstrators. I answered him in almost the same vein as Andras
did in public. I called his attention to the confusion concerning the number
of participants at the latest Washington march of black men. Indeed, it is
very difficult to judge the size of a crowd. I read figures from 7,500 to
30,000. One thing is sure it was neither 300,000 which Csurka predicted nor
it was 100,000 Csurka sympathizers claimed after the event. But as a MDP
politician said in one of the Hungarian papers recently, most likely not all
of them were MIEP supporters, but simply dissatisfied people who wanted to
demonstrate against the government.

The other topic is the Kadar-regime, or rather how did the regime manage to
become popular. Over the weekend I was reading a "university textbook,"
published in 1993. Topic: Hungarian history between 1918 and 1990. The text
which caught my attention was the following:

"A kimeletlen megtorlas utan Kadar Kanas es csapata--sikerrel--elhitette a
magyar lakossaggal, hogy az a maximum a szovjet birodalom kulso gyurujeben,
amit ez a rendszer biztosit szamara. Kimondhatatlanul belesulykolta a
kozvelemenybe, hogy valojaban folyamatosan kijatssza a szovjet vezetest, es
allandoan azon munkalkodik, hogy jobb es jobb korulmenyeket tudjon
biztositani. `Ennyit lehet es nem tobbet, de ezt is csak velunk'--mondja ez a
logika. `Ha nem mi, akkor majd visszajon Rakosi . . .'--folytatodik a ki nem
mondott erveles. Ennek elfogadtatasahoz termeszetesen folyamatosan produkalni
kellett az `eredmenyeket,' es ezek egeszen a hetvenes evek vegeig nem is
maradtak el.

"A tarsadalom es a hatalom osszekacsintasanak (`port hintunk Moszkva szemebe
 . . .') egyik alappillere az eleszinvonal folyamatos emelese volt. . . . "

Briefly in English. After the terror, Kadar and his comrades successfully
managed to convince the Hungarian population that in the outer ring of the
Soviet Empire what this regime managed provide was the maximum which could be
achieved. Without expressing it, the government pounded into public
consciousness that the Hungarian government was actually continually
outwitting the Soviet leadership, and was incessantly working for securing
better and better living conditions. `That's all that can be achieved, and
even that with only us. . . . If not us, then comes back Rakosi--continued
the unexpressed reasoning. Naturally, in order to accept this line of
reasoning, the regime had to produce `results,' and until the 1970s these
`results' were there.

One of the foundations of this "winking" between the political power and
society (i.e. we are "pulling the wool over Moscow's eyes, was the steady
improvement of living conditions. . . .

End of translation. I thought that this paragraph pretty well summarizes the

Eva Balogh
+ - Language-police State (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

With the signatures of the presidents of the three Hungarian political
parties (Bela Bugar-MKDM, Miklos Duray-ESWS, Laszlo Nagy-MPP) and all 17
Hungarian deputies in the Slovak Parliament, the following letter, dated
October 31, 1995, was sent to the Secretary General of the Council of Europe,
Prof. Daniel Tarschys.


"Dear Mr. Secretary General,

We are appealing to you, as a leading and responsible leader of the Council
of Europe, in the name of the Coalition of the Hungarian Parties and of the
deputies of these parties  in the National Council of the Slovak Republic.

The Slovak Government has submitted a Draft Law, concerning the topic of
"State Language" to the Slovak Parliament. This draft is going to be
discussed as Point #24 during the November session of Parliament.

Dear Mr. Secretary General,

We must point out that this Draft Law does not meet European standards. We
wish to inform you, that in its present form, the Draft Law:

a) Is in conflict with several paragraphs of the Slovak Constitution.
b) It is also in conflict with the recommendations of the Framework
Convention of the Council of Europe, which addressed the issue of the
Protection of National Minorities. This conflict is even more serious,
because these recommendations have already been ratified by the National
Council of the Slovak Republic.
c) It conflicts with the provisions of the Slovak-Hungarian Bilateral Treaty,
which has already been signed by the Prime Ministers of both country and
ratified by the Hungarian Parliament.

We must also inform you, that in spite of several public promises, the Slovak
Government has initiated no negotiations to  discuss the concerns of the
Hungarian political parties in Slovakia. You should also know, that the
proposals of the minority representatives and of independent Slovak experts
in the Government Council for National Minorities, have been rejected without
serious discussion."

Since the mailing of the above letter, the illegal Draft Law prepared by the
Slovak government has been approved by the Slovak Parliament. Thereby
Slovakia has become a "language police state." It is up to all of us, to
bring this tragic turn of events to the attention of the media. Bela Liptak
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #480 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Dear K.S. Juhasz, you missed the point, all 12 of them. As things are,
> demands of the 100,000 were entirely reasonable. *This* is the point.
> As to your question "who will be the group of "angels" that are going to
> implement them and be the watchdog" - one hundred thousand already
> volunteered. It is not difficult to find ten or hundred times more,
> if that is what you call for.
> This is what democracy should be all about. People voice their demand.
> Elect a government to deliver on them (such as in 1994, to deliver on
> a "socially sensitive" transition to post-communism). If government
> betrays electors by turning on them 180 degrees, as it has clearly
> happened to Hungary since the 12 of March, people openly demand the
> resignation of the cheater government, that has lost therefore its
> public trust, i.e. its mandate.
> If 100,000 is not enough, there will be more - and the rest of the
> demands (all eleven of them) have already been formulated and none of
> them fails worldwidescrupulus.

    No, I haven`t missed the point. I`m just stating that 100,000 in a
population is not a majority view. The MIES, or whatever you call
yourselves, are a minority party, hence most of your members would have been
at the rally, and so I estimate that there are no more than about 200,000
people in the whole country that would vote for you. Oh yes, I don`t doubt
that we all agree in principle to the 12 demands, it`s just what you would
ACTUALLY do when you get into power that we are all worried about. 100,000
volunteers? I suggest you look at their backgrounds and what sort of people
they really before you accept them to run the country - wonder how many are
blinded from the true aims of your demands by their racist and nationalistic

    Mr Szucs, if you can find me 100,000 selfless, honest individuals that
would run the country fairly and that are not looking for personal financial
gain you will be the luckiest man alive.

+ - Re: your mail (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony wrote:
>kristyan (?)  wrote:
>>     Can anyone summarise (CORRECLTY !!!) the story of Suez Canal
>>     Once again, correctly and not approximately in "pub style",
>>   in the latter style even Nancsi neni knows as well what has
>On the other hand, they may not be inclined to do so, given the arrogant
>style of your demand.
>George Antony

George, I think kristyan was making the distinction between he folklore
version "everyone knows", and the factual version.  I don't think
arrogance was involved, but just an abrupt writing style which can across
the wrong way.

As to the relevance to Hungary, somce folks have mentioned that there is a
theory about the Suez Canal incident, and it's affect on the events of 1956.

+ - The 100 thousand (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The 100 thousand seems more and more like the 100 thousand noms de
plume used by one and the same author, Andra1s Pellionisz, systems
administrator of siliconvalley.com, and of course Director of the
famed Silicon Valley Net Institute. I already suspected that the
recent outburst of Csurkism at siliconvalley.com is more an individual
phenomenon than a matter of group psychology, but now we have more
positive proof. The only person who attempts to use this Freedom Fight
business as a smear is Andra1s Pellionisz, who lost that particular
debate (check FORUM 461-476 on the HIX archives) and after four years
or so, has still not recovered his emotional equilibrium. There was
absolutely no Andra1s Szu3cs around at the time, so the remark clearly
comes from an old-timer (by net standards, that is) who uses another
name. Guess who has root privileges at siliconvalley.com to do such a
thing. Also interesting is another virtual writer who uses the style
of To2ro2k Szulta1n (a character in Jeno3 Rejto3's books). Expect more
to come. Seems to be a nice clean way to grow the number of Csurka

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Diamonds and trust (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tiha von Ghyczy wrote:

>I very much share their rejection of anti-semitism but the beauty of the
>Jewish community is of course that they are capable of acting as a group most
>of the time. And they do. What on earth is wrong with that?

>The diamond trade requires an enormous amount of trust. Even the simplest
>messanger boy is vested with fiduciary reponsibilities. Trust flourishes when
 >people can depend on their community for harsh punishment of each and every


>The Jewish community is tight, vigilant and the punishment is ostracism.
>Perfectly suited for this trade (and some others as well).

You misunderstand American history and culture.  The very behavior you
have approved of is illegal, and has drawn critisicm and leagl action
from liberal forces inour country when it has been European_Americans
engaging in such actions.  Irish control of the police in New York City
drew law suits from African-Americans in the 60's, 70's, and 80's, and
caused protests by Italian and other groups ealier in the century.  Would
you have defended that?  It is illegal to give family members an
advantage when applying for a government job, yet you can argue that
no one could be a better candidate for a job as, for example, a city
accountant than someone who grew up learning about it as the child
of a city accountant (or police officer, fireman, judge, mayor, etc) and
who has all the right connections through his family, to do the job.
The "Good Old Boy" network in business works very well, when you can
trust the CEO of another company to follow through on an agreement, or
better yet, when an agreement is easier to come by since you went to school
with most of the CEO's of major companies with which you do business.
The system is very efficient.  Unfortunately it excludes women who
don't fit in socially at a mens club where business is conducted
over discussions of football, or who wouldn't be considered for a
job since they don't socialize with the men. Would you defend this?
I'd guess not.  then why is it ok for Jews to do what it's not ok
for European-Americans to do?  This is the most clear case of
hypocrocy I've seen yet on the topic, here or elsewhere - and you
wonder why there is anti-sematism? Please!!

As has always been the case in American law, efficiency gibes way
to right.  Would you argue it shouldn't here.  I really, really
hope not.

+ - Re: U.I. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Karcsi wrote:

>hat I forgot to write earlier was, why do you Peter Hidas keep on writing
>the statement "...you are being racist/anti-semetic without realising it."
>Aren`t you just being discrimatory against people give some honest (usually)
>critism that you cannot agree with?

Thank you Karcsi.  Whether you agree or not, the criticisms have some
basis in fact and observation.  to discuss them is not by and in itself
racist/anti-semetic.  I'm glad to see someone else sees this, too.

+ - NEMZET (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well I might bloodie my nose,but maybe not in vain.I just finished reading the
latest release from Nemzet.It is tue it was written mostley in Hungarian,wich
so far I did not notice,they sendt us some news releases from other
sources,but as they say now the rabit is out of its sack.
The whole release was in support of Dr Pelonius(scientist)living abroad and Dr.
Torgyan and Dr Endrey(a very knolegable lawyer)who just returned to his
Personaley I find the article offensive and inciting.(there goes my bloodey
nose again)I do not understand what is the reason to let the emmigrant
Hungarian community read this if they are unabel to do too much to help
those above mentioned Man to be elected.The onley thing what I can see will
happen is to have more discussions and name calling either in this print or
in the Forum,wher
Lajci can have another go of his fool language and cynical comments
On the otherhand what will happen in Hungary?I don't know,but I sincereley
hope something encouraging and normal wich will help Hungary to get out of
theire problems.Nothing metters more than monney,and this is what it is all
To criminalise IMF,for there advice.What was there advice and when.I
understand this was mostley under the Kadar regime.In this respect I have
onley one question.Where did the monney go to.Was it to make life more
bearable in those times,so the governement can subsidice evrithing?Did it
stay in Hungary?Did it go to the Soviet union?
Maybe somebodey can enlighten me even if I lived and worked in Hungarey at
that time.I don't think the peole realey knew about those loans at that
time,or cared about it.
At the same time Nemzet forgets to wriet about the new loan wich the euro
banks are giving to better the life in Hungary.
Hey we have enough one sided news,at least the other newsreports are not )that)
I am not a politician,neither a scientist,nor ahistorian(no pun
intended)only a pipe smoking retired person who lived through all the
goodies in the past 69 years.(this way Lajcsi don't have to guess my age).
I hope I did not offend anybody,since my nose is still bleeding.
Andy Kozma
+ - Re: Language-police State (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Since the mailing of the above letter, the illegal Draft Law prepared by the
> Slovak government has been approved by the Slovak Parliament. Thereby

As of 11/7, the draft Law on State Language has n-o-t been approved by
the Slovak Parliament. Horn and Meciar are to meet in Berlin on 11/10
to discuss the draft. If passed, the Law would become legal, but it may
be challenged as unconstitutional. Slovakia's Parliament is to discuss
the draft Law later in November.


+ - Politika (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

///////////////////////////////////////////V.EVFOLYAM/ V.VOL/////////
-    A Magyar Nemzeti Bank egyetertesevel csutortokon, november 2-an
dontott a kormany egyes, kesobb visszafizetendo IMF hiteltorlesztesek
visszafizetesenek elorehozasarol. Ez mintegy 620 millio dollart
jelent, melyet egyebkent 1998 -ig kellett volna torleszteni. A lepes
nyoman varhatoan kedvezobb lesz a magyar hitelek kulfoldi megitelese.
Egy brit hiradas szerint ugyanis ottani penzugyi szakemberek velemenye
alapjan BB osztalyu hitelminositest kaptunk, mely a sajtoban is
megjelent. (Hatterinformaciokent megjegyzem, bar nem tartozik a
minuszos hirek mufajaba: AAA osztalyu a legjobb, azutan AA, majd A
stb. Igy peldaul a BB osztalyu ados szamara nyujtott hitel
torlesztesenek hatarideje tehat mar a vegtelenbe nyulik...). A
penzugyi dontest meg az ellenzek nagy resze is helyesli, hozzateve,
hogy figyelemmel kell lenni a tarsadalom turokepessegere.
-    A penteki sajtotajekzotaton bejelentettek, hogy HETFON kezdi meg
az Orszaggyules az 1996-os koltsegvetes vitajat. Varhatoan maratoni
kuzdelemnek neznek elebe a kepviselok, hiszen csutortok estig
meghosszabitottak november masodik hetenek ulesszakat. A
torvenyjavaslat a Koltsegvetesi Bizottsag vitaja utan tehat "atment",
bar a tovabbi monetaris restrikciot tobben elesen elleneztek, illetve
a torvenytervezetet meg alakalmatlannak tartottak az altalanos vitara.
-     Ugyancsak hetfoi esemeny, hogy Horn Gyula miniszterelnok
megjelenik az Orszaggyules Kulugyi Bizottsaga elott. Alitolag a
bizotttsag mar nem ragaszkodik mereven az o-tatarafuredi, Horn-Meciar
titkos talalkozo reszleteinek ismertetesehez.
-     Stasszburgba utazott a szlovakiai Magyar Koalicio kuldottsege.
A magyar nemzetiseguek kepviseloi ugyanis  - hirek szerint -nem
varnak semmi pozitivumot a szlovakiai orszaggyules hetfoi vitajatol a
vihart es erzelmeket kavart nyelvtorveny ugyeben.            O.CS.S.

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