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1 Medical Professionals (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Bad Minority Relations (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
3 _______________K:nyvvilag (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
4 Mihail Carigiu writes: (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
5 {Re:}^4 (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: {Re:}^4 (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
7 Hungarian Language (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Mihai Caragiu (mind)  75 sor     (cikkei)
9 Bad Minority Relations (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Medical Professionals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

VIXEL, INC. is looking for contacts with medical professional in Hungary.
Interested individuals please respond by e-mail.  Thanks for posting this
Victor A Bernstam, MD, PhD
+ - Re: Bad Minority Relations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Rick Bruner > asks for an example where ethnic
problems have been solved in a civilized manner.

Perhaps the most successful solution to the grievances of an ethnic
minority concerned the South Tyrol-- an area with predominantly
German-speaking population which was part of the Austro-Hungarian
Empire. The Peace Treaty of Saint Germain in 1919 transferred it to
Italy. Mussolini's policy of assimilation was strongly resented by the
population and led to ethnic unrest. Following the Second World War, the
issue was revisited culminating in the Gaspari-Gruber Accord of 1946
ensuring the German-speaking population of "complete equality of rights
with the Italian-speaking inhabitants." The treaty assured the
protection of the identity and granted autonomy to the German-speaking
population. Here, the emphasis was on population, though not in the
territorial sense, and the agreement avoided a fracturing of the state
on a community-wide basis. The arrangement has worked singularly well.
Austria has retained the right to bring grievances of the German-
speaking minority before the World Court. With acceptance of the
German language in official discourse as well as instruction, ethnic
discord is at a minimum.

+ - _______________K:nyvvilag (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Please, who can tell me, if the hungarian publication (monthly)
"K:nyvvilag" availabe is?

Many thanks in advance for Your efforts:

                                         With the best regards:

                                         Mag. Dr. Julius Csizmadia
+ - Mihail Carigiu writes: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>would you bother to define what "cultural autonomy" is. Where is the
>>boundary between "cultural" end "ethnic" autonomy.

It is an enviroment in which the language of the ethnic minority can prosper.
Since assimilation is a tendency in an ethnic minority, it probably
requires more support. It would be nice to the same protection, than the
french language enjoyed in Quebec. But as the least requirement, the same
rights, that the hungarians enjoyed in the 50's in Romania. Things got
worse since then. Or why not accept Resolution 1201. The hungarian goverment
is willing to go along with it.

>>There is  good will in Romania.

There is. I even met romanian hungarians and romanians who got along well.
But there is also fear on both side, which bring out extremism. And the more
you find people like Funar, the more you will also find more extreme hungarians

>>In order to give a solution, first we have to formulate correctly and
>>unambiguously what the problem is.

As I stated here, and in another letter, the problem is fear. The hungarians
fear of assimilation, the romanians fear of separatism.
 Solution: I am not sure there is. Too much mistrust exist already. One solutio
would be a Europe without borders, and ethnicity actively supported
(Resolution 1201). But I do not believe that will happen.

+ - {Re:}^4 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lorant Czaran > writes:

No, it's not true, there are not enough classes in Cluj for hungarian
students, and there are not enough teachers as well, because every "nice"
head of department is trying to keep their number as limited as possible,
and to ask old professors to teach courses...this only keeps the level low!

What is "enough" for you, then ? Maybe you can provide
examples of hungarian candidates who weren't hired although
they excelled in their profession, due to the not-so-good-will
of a certain department head. Names! Enumerate cases!
Present statistics! Otherwise that's plain bulshit. Anyway,
not a statement of fact. The hungarian students at least at
mathematics department can take almost _every_ class in hungarian,
and I believe in many other departments.

>PUNR prefects in Hungarian counties, ugly speaches
>in the Parliament

Every speech criticizing the hardliners
of HDUR is an `ugly speech', then... Including those
delivered by NPP, PAC or so ? Do you need examples ?

>REvisionists? BE serious, who will need a TRansylvanian region with two
>millions hungarians and six million romanians today? Who will need a
>"romanian minority" of 35 %?

Well, my dear, what about if you check one of the issues of "The European" (I
remember exactly, two or three months ago or so, I can check if you need)
in which a certain hungarian intellectual almost spitted on Balladur for his
"ill-will" :) Your statement that "NOBODY" is _false_ since I can provide
at least ONE example.

>Authonomy! WE want exactly what you want!

Here we might agree. I have already stated that I agree
with the principle of local autonomy. Not with that based
on ethnicity.


Agree also.

>Being in the States now, Mr. Caragiu, I hope you can agree with me in
>some aspects, if you have really a good will! I say being in the States
>because many of us really need to see how are things going normally in a
>democratic country,

Do you really think US as _the best_ example of democratic country ?
Did you think well before writing this down ?

>Sorry for the long message, but I didn't resisted!

That's OK.


Mihai Caragiu

        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
+ - Re: {Re:}^4 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have been following irregularly the exchanges between Prof. Caragiu and
Prof. Czaran with great interest, but also some unease.  The interest comes
of course from the timeliness and importance of the topic, the unease from
recollections of similar exchanges at Columbia University in New York, where
I was a graduate student 30 years ago.

I must say that I find Prof. Caragiu's thinking more to my liking, particu-
larly his support for the idea of local autonomy *not* based on ethnicity.
Ethnic politics of other than the New York variety (i.e., a Puerto Rican
candidate for a predominantly Puerto Rican election district, and so on) is
a recipe for disaster, not only in Transylvania.  But then the whole nation-
state idea in its ethnic variant has been a recipe for disaster, as political
scientist Hannah Arendt pointed out a generation ago.

In this respect, at least, I think that America *has been* and perhaps still is
a much better model than almost anything else, despite the recent ugly strug-
gles over ethnic "spoils".  With the exception of American Indians, politics
and administration here is *not* carried on in terms of ethnic collectivities,
yet the principle of federalism and localism has served pretty well to restrain
the idiocies that occasionally issue from "the center" in Washington.  Yet
this has been possible only because of a generally very high level of "social
trust" in our society, which seems largely absent in Eastern Europe, perhaps
for good reason.

The fears o "
of "assimilation" by Hungarian Romanians, and of anti-state "separatism" by
Romanian Romanians, both seem entirely realistic, given the past record in
Transylvania.  Here the Turkish example might be more relevant than the Ameri-
can one.  Ataturk, perhaps reluctantly but nonetheless decisively, rejected the
idea that the Republic of Turkey was or should be "responsible" for fellow-
Turks outside the boundaries of the Turkish state.  That decision, among others
made it possible for Turkey to concentrate on the really important issues--
modernization, nation- and state-building, secularization, integration into
the wider world, and so on.  Such a decision may be impossible right now in
Eastern Europe, but it bears reflection and consideration.

Of course, a large part of the problem is that Romania is far from being a
democratic or even democratizing state, and that adds to the fears of the
Transylvanian Hungarians.  But that problem also weighs on non-Hungarian
Romanians, as well.  This may be a "which came first--the chicken or the egg"
problem, in which case it is unsolvable.  But a little less hysteria on all
sides would also go a long way toward laying the groundwork for an acceptable

Batkay Be'la
+ - Hungarian Language (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I recently graduated from Indiana University with a master's in East
European Studies concentrating on Hungarian Politics and History.  I also
studied Hungarian language and would like to locate someone in the Colorado
Springs, CO area who would like to help me continue my study of Hungarian.
Any referrals on this would be greatly appreciated.

Brad Gutierrez
+ - Re: Mihai Caragiu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear intelectuals,
I accidentaly saw your messages and cannot resist without replying.
Well, you see, it's very easy to speak and "produce" texts about our
situation there, from Canada U.S. or even Bucharest...even if you pretend
to be a clever guy, you must first know facts practically!
No, it's not true, there are not enough classes in Cluj for hungarian
students, and there are not enough teachers as well, because every "nice"
head of department is trying to keep their number as limited as possible,
and to ask old professors to teach courses...this only keeps the level low!
And there are no money for teaching materials, not at all! Ofcourse,
nobody has money now, but then how can you speak about equal oportunities?
And good will?? THe most important missing fact is the good will, even if
you pretend there is, or if some intelectuals try to be objectiv in this
regard! That's not enough, and nobody moves a finger, or manifest his/her
opinion about all the stupid planified actions of nationalist or even
governmental parties, PUNR prefects in Hungarian counties, ugly speaches
in the Parliament...not even a word of disapproval, from any of you!!
At least in some newspapers...Why? Probably because a lot of you are
thinking in the same way, and I'm sorry for this!
Instead of thinking about a common and a better future, we are trying to
live in the past, to fight and to remain undeveloped, because that will
be the end of this stupid story!
Kriterion is just living from different donations, and the local
government just caused them problems over problems, not to speak about
the total lack of internal funding...Almost two millions of Hungarians
are also paying taxes, to speak like the Americans use to, so those
budgetary money are also our money? Lowest investment from the Budget in the
Harghita and
Covasna counties in these four last years, compared with the number of
inhabitans! That's a fact! Everywhere administrative difficulties created
artificially for us, when possible...you see, we feel these every day,
this is not just "story"!
WHen all these will disappear, there will be a good will, and then we can
try to forget the past. Till then, only useless "speaches"!

REvisionists? BE serious, who will need a TRansylvanian region with two
millions hungarians and six million romanians today? Who will need a
"romanian minority" of 35 %?
NOBODY! Situation cannot be changed, it only must be kept and improved
more and more! All the danger of revisionism is a story for keeping
simple people paying the salaries of stupid politicians, who are so weak
that they can't do anything else, except nationalistic policy!

Authonomy! WE want exactly what you want! But we ask for it, and other 20
millions just keep quiet, waiting for I don't know what...
THat's the local authonomy, people in a community to decide for
themselves, who will be their leader, what cultural events must they
celebrate, what statues or monuments will they build, what will be the
name of
the streets in their settlement, how will they teach their childs...
THat's authonomy,
50 people cannot decide for an entire country, in a real democracy! When
we are so poor, why last year the government gave to Cluj almost one
billion lei, that's one million dollars at that time, for finishing a
monument innitiated by an almost real crazy mayor! Because they love and
suport this policy, they like to be in conflict with Hungarians...
Is THIS what we need now? How can we trust persons like they, in these
Being in the States now, Mr. Caragiu, I hope you can agree with me in
some aspects, if you have really a good will! I say being in the States
because many of us really need to see how are things going normally in a
democratic country, and the only solution to turn things in the right
direction in our own country is to promote real valuable ideas! And
that's our job, as intelectuals!
Sorry for the long message, but I didn't resisted!

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorant Czaran            |       till August 1995:
                         |       Collegium Budapest
3400-Cluj, Romania       |       Szentharomsag u.2 sz.
                         |       1014-Budapest, Hungary
                         |       email: 
                         |       phone:+36-1-1561244; fax:+36-1-1759539
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Bad Minority Relations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 8/1/95, Sandor Lengyel x2495 wrote:

>  Romania has a large hungarian minority, and because of this Romania feels
>destabilized by it. They fear, that giving too much freedom, they might demand
>not only cultural but also political autonomy. This fear is normal, and it
>does exist in any nation, (not just the Romanian), who try to subjugate a
>large ethinic population.
>  By your history lesson, it seems we did it too. But as you can see, it is
>not the solution.

Hear! hear!

Reading your first paragraph above, I couldn't help thinking of Kosovo in
Serbia, where I just visited on a recent trip. For those who don't know the
history there, in the early '70s, Tito gave the Serb provence of Kosovo,
bordering Albania, autonomy. By the early '80s, the large Albanian minority
took to the streets with demonstrations, demanding full independent
republic status, like Croatia, Macedonia and the rest. By the late '80s,
the Serbs (Milosevic in particular) rallied huge nationalism around the
"Kosovo Question" and in '89 revoked Kosovo's autonomy altogether,
propelling our pal Slobo into the lime-light and in a large way
contributing to the full-scale civil war still burning in the region now.

Allow me to quote from Mark Thompson's excellent book "A Paper House: The
Ending of Yugoslavia" (Vintage, '92):

     Any dialectician could have foreseen that the concessions of "limited
     sovereignty" must sharpen the hunger for more. By creating the space
     and tools for an Albanian intelligentsia, the federation gave a
     hostage to fortune; for the new intellectuals might not dance to the
     federal tune.

Before any pro-Romanian jumps to use the above as justification for concern
in the caes of Transylvania, let me clarify that the two situations are
very different. Alabanians had for centuries, or virtually their entire
existence, been totally repressed by one overlord or another, have lived
all that time in universal poverty and without much sense of ethnic
identity before this century. They never, anyway, had a nation state before
then (or perhaps for 30 years, 600 years ago).

Most importantly are the demographic differences: in Kosovo, Albanians are
90% of the 2 million-odd inhabitants of the region, AND the whole region
borders directly on Albania proper. Neither of those are the cases with
Translyvania; other than a few towns, most of the Hungarian population is
living in towns dozens or hundreds of kilometers away from the Hungarian
border, deep in Romania proper, and, while I don't have the demographic at
hand, I'm sure the Hungarian population across the whole region of
Transylvania is much lower than 90%. Not to mention that's it's a
prospering region in Romania today (*much* unlike Kosovo) with a long
history of two developed ethnic identities, etc., etc.

While in Serbia's case, it was true that some automony led to strong
demands for total independence, I'm sure that's much less likely to be the
case in Transylvania.

I agree wholeheartedly with Sandor that oppression of whatever kind is not
the solution. Just look at Kosovo again as the worst example of that,
today. True, much of the history I've been reading these days attests that
Hungarians were not the most open-minded rulers when it came to minority
issues of yester-year. But we should learn from history, not keep repeating

I have one question to bring to this discussion: What are some examples of
countries elsewhere in Europe or beyond that have GOOD solutions to ethnic
issues? Switerland comes to mind, though I don't know much about the place.



-----------------------                         -----------------------
Rick E. Bruner                           Freelance journalist, Budapest
>               Editor: The Hungary Report (online)
>                                 "info" c/o:
Tel/Fax: (36-1) 202-4700       >