Sziasztok !!!!


> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Hungary]
> Temakor: Duna es gatak ( 19 sor )
> Idopont: Wed Mar 24 07:49:57 EST 1999 KORNYESZ #643
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> Kedves Tagok!
> Elkuldom a cimet, ahonnan a "Bos-Nagymaros tegnap - ma - holnap"
> dolgozatot, Liptak Bela osszefoglalojat Duna-ugyben le lehet tolteni, vegre
> komplett
> attekintest kapunk a tortenetrol es a jelenlegi tennivaloinkrol.
.............
> Ha mar a listan volt az anyag, elnezest, hogy elkerulte a figyelmemet!
> Maradok tisztelettel
> Marton Jozsef

Ha nem tevedek itt arrol a Liptak Bela-rol lehet szo aki mint kemikus
eddig is nagy hozzaertest mutatott kornyezetvedelmi es a Dunaval
kapcsolatban kerdesekben .... (a dolgozatot nem olvastam de jopar
"otlete't" Liptak urnak, pl UN beavatkozas, vilag tuntetes,  es hasonlok
... szoval itt ezen forumon jobb lenne ha megalapozottab dolgokat
propagalnank).

Elkepeszto hogy azok akik 1980-as evek kozepe ota olyan hatalmas karokat
okoztak, kornyezetvedelemmel visszaelve, pontosabban azzal hogy
hozzanemertesukkel de annal nagyobb elhivatottsagukkal egyszeruen
megakadalyoztak egy valos szakerto vita alakuljon ki a Bos-Nagymarosi
ugyben tovabbra is milyen befolyassal birnak. (Vargha Janos peldaul ha
jol tudom a kormany szakertoje ). Meg azt is hajlando vagyok elhinni
hogy jot akartak (mit is mondott Dante ??)

Sajnos minden kormany mar Nemeth Miklos ota tisztan politikai ugykent
kezelte ahelyett hogy az ugyet valodi melysegeben megvizsgalta volna. 
Ami ennek kovetkezteben a Szigetkozben tortent az szinte
visszafordithatalan kornyezeti problemat okozott .... (valoszinuleg
sokkal rosszabb a helyzet mint amit egy duzzasztas okozott volna). 

Persze lehet hogy en latom rosszul.... 

(De Moldova Gyorgy konyve erdekes dolgokra mutat ra !!! Pedig o maga nem
is eromu parti .... )


Na minden jot es remelem senkit nem bantottam meg szemelyeben ....

Gabor

-- 
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|Mr. Gabor Szilagyi                           |
|UNEP-RONA                                 http://www.rona.unep.org |
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| All opinion expressed herewith are mine and not my employer !!!!  |
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Szépjónapot!

Nehany pontasitast fuzok Szilagyi Gabor alabbi megjegyzeseihez:

>Ha nem tevedek itt arrol a Liptak Bela-rol lehet szo aki mint kemikus

Tevedsz,  tobbek kozott hajomernok.

>eddig is nagy hozzaertest mutatott kornyezetvedelmi es a Dunaval
>kapcsolatban kerdesekben .... (a dolgozatot nem olvastam de jopar
>"otlete't" Liptak urnak, pl UN beavatkozas, vilag tuntetes,  es hasonlok
>... szoval itt ezen forumon jobb lenne ha megalapozottab dolgokat
>propagalnank).


Sajnalom, hogy olvasatlanul magalapozatlannak minositesz valamit, pusztan
eloiteletek alapjan, habar ehhez jogod van, nem igen illik propagalni. A
tuntetes es egyeb javaslatok a vilag figyelmenek felhivasat szolgaltak arra,
hogy ez az elso nemzetkozi perre fajult kotnyezetvedelmi vita. Es mi a
megalapozottabb, amit talan Te mondasz, az "hivatalbol"?

>Sajnos minden kormany mar Nemeth Miklos ota tisztan politikai ugykent
>kezelte ahelyett hogy az ugyet valodi melysegeben megvizsgalta volna.
>Ami ennek kovetkezteben a Szigetkozben tortent az szinte
>visszafordithatalan kornyezeti problemat okozott ....

Koszonom a kiegeszitest!

>Persze lehet hogy en latom rosszul....
>
>(De Moldova Gyorgy konyve erdekes dolgokra mutat ra !!! Pedig o maga nem
>is eromu parti .... )


Az ajanlott anyag is van olyan erdekes, mint az altalam is nagyrabecsult
Moldova Gy. konyve, csak rövidebb :-)
http://szeged.matav.hu/martonjf/download/marc20b.zip
http://szeged.matav.hu/martonjf/download/duna.zip


>Na minden jot es remelem senkit nem bantottam meg szemelyeben ....
>
>Gabor


Nem volt megbantas, talan pont a vita elindulasa. A valaszt sem banto
szandek iratta.

Maradok tisztelettel

Marton Jozsef

GENETIC ENGINEERING IS NOT JUST MORE OF THE SAME

Genetic engineering is nothing new.  People have been messing with genes since
the first farmers selected the biggest wild grass seeds and began to breed what
we now call grain.

So say many widely respected scientists.  It's no big deal, they say, to snip
out code from a flounder and paste it into a tomato.  DNA is DNA is merely a
chemical.  There's no label on it that says "flounder" or "tomato" or "human." 
Nature has been mixing and mutating DNA for billions of years.  Viruses and
bacteria pick up genes, move them around, outside us and within us, all the
time.

All of which is technically true, but I don't see that it justifies our
behaving like viruses and bacteria.  If the genetic revolution is just more of
the same anything, it strikes me as more of the same hubris that got us into
atom-splitting and other technical messes we don't know how to get out of.

For starters, our pace of gene alteration is orders of magnitude faster than
nature's.  No virus or ordinary plant breeder has altered the genetics of half
the world's soybeans in just three years, or a third of the corn, cotton,
canola, and potatoes.  If there are problems with these engineered seeds, we
aren't taking the time to discover them in the lab or in isolated test fields. 
So we'll find them in our food supply or our bodies or throughout nature,
beyond our recall.

And there are likely to be problems.  The ignorance with which we are carrying
out these vast experiments is, well, dumbfounding.  Every genetically
engineered organism makes a new protein it never made before or stops making an
old one.  Its effects on those who eat it are not known, despite hurried
assurances from underfunded, politically pressured regulators.

Wider effects in nature are even more imponderable.  No one knows how readily
cut-and-paste genes will travel via pollen.  Or via those viruses and bacteria
the human gene-splicers use not only to argue for the normality of their work,
but also to do the work.  Microbes are routinely used as carriers to insert
genes into the corn or sheep or whatever cell.  Wild microbes may -- no one
knows -- be more likely to pick up a transplanted gene than a native one.  Once
a gene has been mobilized into the microbial world, it's way out of our
control.

This stuff is not just more of the same.  Nothing in nature can choose any
single trait from any critter and move it into any other (a red dye from algae
into a flower; a human antibody into a cow).  Or clone the flower or the cow. 
And now the geneticists are learning not only to edit the code for life, but to
turn it on or off at will.

For example, they have a package of genes called the "terminator" that causes a
plant to make dead seeds.  They need it to prevent a farmer from harvesting and
replanting super-cotton or hyper-corn seed, rather than buying more from the
company that holds the patent.  But the company can't reproduce the seed
either, unless it turns that terminator package off in its fields and on in the
farmer's fields.  It does this by soaking the seed in a "trigger" chemical to
turn on the terminator.  Now under development are "triggers" that require the
presence of a particular chemical for the plant to grow at all.  Not only can
Monsanto make a soybean (as it already does) that beats out weeds by growing in
the presence of Monsanto's herbicide Roundup, some day the company will be able
to hook the soybean, so it can't germinate, say, or grow or form seed without a
blast of Roundup.

The commercial possibilities are thrilling.  That is the most disturbing
difference between biotech and everything that has gone before -- the selection
mechanism that decides which genes shall live and which shall die -- the
selection mechanism for evolution.  Nature selects according to the ability to
thrive and reproduce in the environment.  Farmers have selected for ten
thousand years according to what feeds people.  Now the criterion is what can
be patented and sold.

Biotech companies love to talk about feeding the world, but their products must
pay off in the market, which measures dollar demand, not human need.  The
effort has gone into the potato that makes McDonald's fries, not the yam eaten
by folks with no cash.  The corn that feeds America's pigs and chickens, not
the dryland millet that feeds Africa's children.  The diseases of the rich, not
the plagues of the poor.  There is some public funding and corporate charity
directed toward feeding the world, but the vast majority of minds and bucks are
working on caffeine-free coffee beans and designer tomatoes.

What worries me most is that the technologies are being developed essentially
in secret by private corporations.  There is little public knowledge or
control, and the products are being sold with no labels, no warning, no
discussion, at least not in this country.  The scientists who are doing the
work, many of whom I know and respect, are just that, scientists, engrossed by
the technical challenges, oblivious to the evolutionary, ecological, economic,
or social consequences.  It's as if neither science nor society learned
anything from the atomic bomb.

Shortly after that bomb first went off, C. S. Lewis wrote an essay called "The
Abolition of Man," which foresaw, chillingly, the degree of technical mastery
over life that we are now on the verge of achieving.  "What we call Man's power
over Nature," Lewis wrote, "turns out to be a power exercised by some men over
other men with Nature as its instrument."  

He did not mean to stop science, rather he was pleading for science guided by
democracy and ethics and wisdom.   "The ... science ... I have in mind would
not do even to minerals and vegetables what modern science threatens to do to
man himself.  When it explained, it would not explain away.  When it spoke of
the parts it would remember the whole....  Its followers would not be free with
the words 'only' and 'merely.'  It would ... buy knowledge at a lower cost than
that of life."

 (Donella H. Meadows is director of the Sustainability Institute and an adjunct
professor of environmental studies at Dartmouth College.)

"WHAT’S THAT ROTTEN SMELL IN PHOENIX?" That’s the title of a featured story in 
TIME Magazine http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/magazine/1998/dom/981123/special_r
eport.corporat5a.html (11/23/98 issue) and the reason TIME came to Phoenix to f
ind out why a BRILLIANT grass roots group is making such a big stink about an e
ven bigger one. BLATANT air pollution, toxic spills, illegal zoning, corporate 
welfare from a single huge SUMITOMO SITIX factory smack dab in the middle of a 
residential area! Our relentless group has won every single legal battle agains
t them. We are ready to go to trial for certain victory, EXCEPT, we just don’t 
have enough money! Don’t let another corporate giant get away with bullying ano
ther innocent neighborhood. PLEASE DONATE.  We need your help!  Any contributio
n over $50.00 will be returned to donor when we win and should we collect our l
egal fees.

Please send donations to Sumitomo Legal Fund, Citizen's Environmental Awareness
 League, P.O. Box 30333, Phoenix, AZ 85046-0333.  Please include your name and 
address if you want your donation returned when we collect our legal fees.

For more information about our orgainziation and our fight please visit our web
 site at http://www.ceal.com.   &W_wqS

Szia Szilard! (szep neved van)
A gyogyszerekrol altalaban: a lebontasi idejukrol es
hatoanyagtartalmarol es sok egyeb masrol konyvtarakban megtalasz
gyogyszertan konyveket amikbol abszolut tajekozodhatsz. Hiszen minden
gyogyszernek mas es mas a lecsengesi ideje. Erre nem lehet valaszolni
egysegesen, csakis kulon-kulon. Egy pelda: most hallottam egy
eloadason, hogy a Seduxen tbl-nak valami iszonyatosan lassu a
kiurulese, es meg egy het utan is az aktiv metabolitok ott keringenek
az egyen vereben,ezert van az, hogy a bevetele utan meg hosszu ideig
egyszeruen alvajaro lesz az ember tole.
Bar apolono letemre kicsit jobban kene ertenem hozza, de a
Farmakologia tudomanya egyre bovul es ember legyen a talpan aki
kovetni tudja.
Udv:Zsuzsa

> ============================================================
Pollution Online Newsletter
Volume 2   Issue 22
Wednesday, March 24, 1999
> ============================================================

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