Peter I. Hidas ) wrote:
: I believe the expression comes from "szervusz", that is from the Latin
: word.    Szervusz eventually became szevasz, than szia., sziasztok.
: Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

I'll see you later... see ya later... see ya! = szia
keep it simple
later, ciao :)
janos

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Dear colleagues,

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Kit Strange


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email   



---------------------------------22127166419535--

I would like to thank everyone who responded to my initial
comments/questions about Hunglish.  Also, thanks to those who e-mailed me
directly.  It's good to know that there are still a lot of intelligent
people who look at and use this group!
     As a result of the feedback I have a few more questions and comments.
     A couple of people suggested that my use of Hunglish was a sign of
lazyness.  Perhaps this is true.  However, I use Hunglish to keep my very
limited knowledge of Hungarian(?) alive.  I was six years old when my
family came to Canada in 1957.  I knew the Hungarian of a six year old.
As I grew, words and concepts took on an English flavour.  I learnt
English within a year.  My parents never learnt more than very basic
English.  In order to speak to my parents I had to speak Hungarian.
However, new words and concepts became part of my language and these
words and concepts were English.  I never knew the Hungarian for these
words.  So.... I would speak Hungarian to my parents but when I came
across an English word for which I had no Hungarian I would start to
create Hunglish.  Often my parents understood me.  Sometimes I had to
explain in Hungarian the meaning of the English word.  All of this may
seem lazy to some but it worked.
     On Saturday mornings my parents did send me to Hungarian language
school in Hamilton.  I hated it!  As a young immigrant I wanted to blend
into my new society and Hungarian language school did not help.  After a
couple of years and very little learning I stopped going.
     Several people said that Hunglish is not a language.  If I used
their logic I would have to conclude that Yiddish or Pennsylvania Dutch
are not languages either.  It would also seem that Romanian is Italian.
     It seems to me that languages develop and evolve due to usage.

Sziasztok y'all!!!!

Joe Szalai                       Tel:519 885-1211, ex5544
User Services                    Net:
Dana Porter Library
University of Waterloo

Dear Arjun @ al!  Let me first repeat what has already been written here:
Hungarian SZIA is older than widespread knowledge of English in Hungary.
The similarity to SEE YA is tempting indeed, but such coincidences do
occur. For CSO"SZ, I believe there is something in German, at least in
certain areas (Switzerland?), that resembles it. Anybody out there who can
clarify this? For SZERVUSZ, there is no need for a German intermediary,
in the last century Latin was still spoken in Hungary. In Hungarian
literary classics (I forget the details) the greeting SERVUS HUMILISSIMUS
= alazatos szolgaja ([your] humble servant) is found indeed. It is
interesting that Italian CIAO also comes from a word meaning "servant",
more precisely "slave" (SCHIAVO).
        Maybe it is time I say something about Hunglish, especially after
having found out that the most important expert on American Hungarian,
Miklos Kontra, is not going to be involved. HUNGLISH is a facetious term
at best. There is no such language. It has no rules, no standards of
correctness. It is not uniform and the usage is strictly ad hoc. In other
words, it's one of the cases of deterioration of competence in a
language. I myself try to avoid it as much as possible, but inadvertently
I do stumble sometimes. For example, there is no good equivalent in
Hungarian of the convenient word APPOINTMENT (time), and when I am too
tired to look for a paraphrase, (such as "I am going to see..."), I might
use the English word. But when I am NOT tired (this sometimes happens), I
avoid these manifestations of sloppiness.
        Nyelvtarsi udvozlettel,                 R

re: pidgin

a linguist friend told me the other day that it is a pidgin if it
is only (mostly) used outside the home. If it is spoken at home
it is a "creole".

There have been references in this group to the "cleaning up" of the
Hungarian language in, I believe, mid 19th century. My question related
to the "Hunglish" topic is how did they actually pull it off. It seems
that languages just keep evolving despite attempts to keep them from
getting corrupted because the control is in the mouths of the common
people. So, succesful attempts to impose a "better" version of a
native language must be as interesting for the tactics used as for
the linguistics. Can someone shed light on this?

*  11:0 AM    06/03/95                  HUNGARIAN FESTIVAL
****************************************
 Hungarian Festival in New Brunswick, N.J.

                             20th ANNUAL

                          HUNGARIAN FESTIVAL

                       Saturday, June 3, 1995
                            11 AM - 8 PM

 Festivities begin with the opening ceremonies at Magyar Reformed  Church
                         175 Somerset Street
                      New Brunswick, New Jersey

                         Sponsored by the
                     HUNGARIAN CIVIC ASSOCIATION
                     (Churches & Organizations)
              For Further Information Call (908) 846-5777

 This information was sent in by <a href="mailto:" >
 Robert Better </a>.

--
personal email          : 
Hungarian-American list : 
WWW                     : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

All right, I am going to address again the aspect of renaming versus
duplicating the Hungarian newsgroup - the re-introduction of which issue
might have deceiving appeal to some who missed the original discussion.
 As it was manifested during the debate, the idea of creating s.c.h
paralel with keeping s.c.m has very little constituency even among
s.c.m-ers. The cleft structure would be rather unfeasible, and the
attempt to set a bad precedent for Usenet (awarding a second group to the
same audience, just because they can't decide on changing the originally
chosen name) is likely to bring in droves of otherwise uninterested
voters saying NO.

 Therefore, at this point it is a farce to say that you can vote against
the renaming and still be for creating s.c.h. If you don't like the
Hungarian newsgroup in the international hierarchy being called
hungarian, then vote against the proposal. But if you think it would be
benefitial not to keep our group's name the odd one out (and thus, in
effect, to deny its use for many potential users failing to find it), then
the only way to go is for the renaming - for the separate creation is
unlikely to pass a Usenet vote.

 Similarly, the other proposal Gotthard threw in at the very end of the
formal discussion period: t.p.h appears to be a mere diversion right now.
No-one but him expressed interest so far, and the only thing he seems to do
with it is to brandish as a panacea making unnecessary to consider giving
our soc.culture group the better name. By now he could've brought his
separate proposal to a vote (I even offered my support if he works on it),
but not even the required discussion has been initiated. Even if there
were an actual proposal on the table it'd take a long time to decide
whether t.p.h would be created - while dropping the currently ongoing vote
would mean NO s.c.h for more than six months, at least. And even if there
would be t.p.h (that of course requires enough votes for a group named
'hungarian', which he on the other hand claims lacking), the question
remains: why keep misnaming the Hungarian group that's in the s.c
hierarchy? The question whether a politics group is needed must be
considered independently now - don't let it sidetrack the s.c issue and
derail the current vote!

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Dear Robert,
the control is not entirely in the mouths of the common people. In HUngary
the Academy of Sciences decides what is proper and what is inproper. That
has a strong influence on what is accepted and what is not in schools. As
far as the 18th century "nyelvujitok" (writers who invented new words) are
concerned, some were successful, others not. There are "magyarized" words
that never became part of ordinary, spokon language but remained in the
official, bureaucratic language. Words like "tavbeszelo" for telephone
or "gepereju jarmu" for a car.
        It is true that small countries that are often struggling for
independence are more sensitive, more resistant to including foreign
words. Interesting topic.
                          Eva

On Sat, 13 May 1995, Robert Komives wrote:

> There have been references in this group to the "cleaning up" of the
> Hungarian language in, I believe, mid 19th century. My question related
> to the "Hunglish" topic is how did they actually pull it off. It seems
> that languages just keep evolving despite attempts to keep them from
> getting corrupted because the control is in the mouths of the common
> people. So, succesful attempts to impose a "better" version of a
> native language must be as interesting for the tactics used as for
> the linguistics. Can someone shed light on this?

* 13:30 PM  05/21/95                    HUNGARIAN CATHOLIC MASS
****************************************
Hungarian Language Catholic Mass  (Magyar Nyelvu Katolikus Mise)
3rd Sundays of the month, from 1:30 pm
630 E Street, SW
Washington D.C.
ST Dominick Church
(between 6th and 7th streets )

--
personal email          : 
Hungarian-American list : 
WWW                     : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

>>He believes that Hungary's chaotic and
>>painful history results in a relatively young and "insecure" (quotes because
>>I don't want that to appear derogatory) national identity.  Does nationalism
>>and reluctance to interact with international forces result from this?

Although the above statement could be valid, one can't generalize. The french
were protecting their language for a long time, long before they became
insecure.

Sandor

On Mon, 15 May 1995, Eva Nadai wrote:

>         It is true that small countries that are often struggling for
> independence are more sensitive, more resistant to including foreign
> words. Interesting topic.
>                           Eva
>
The size of the country does not necessarily affect its language policy,
it does not even determine whether it has a language policy at all.
France, hardly a small country culturally, has been in the forefront
traditionally in preserving the purity of (Parisian) French, not only
through the prestige of its Academy, but also through legislation.
Germany has had cleanup campaigns from time to time without the benefit
of a central language authority. Even the English-speaking world, perhaps
the most liberal, has its dictionary publishers, who represent the final
appeal, at least in the approval of the lexicon (even if this is
allegedly descriptive, not perscriptive).

L. Elteto