My news search picked up an AP report about Attorney General Janet Reno and
FBI Director Louis Freeh going to Budapest for the inauguration of a
U.S.-funded International Law Enforcement Academy which apparently has been
open for a year and already trained "132 police officers from Russia, Poland,
Hungary, the Czech Republic, Romania, Estonia, Belarus, Slovakia, Latvia,
Bulgaria, Lithuania and Ukraine" but the inauguration ceremony was put off
because of the Oklahoma bombing.
|``We are building a truly professional police to focus on organized crime,''
|Reno said after talks with Hungarian Interior Minister Gabor Kuncze.

The only reason I'm bringing this up (besides trying to add some contemporary
Hungarian content) is that recently there was some criticism of the police
minister, Ga1bor Kuncze, who didn't endorse setting up a new crime-fighting
organization. Interestingly, and in spite of his SZDSZ background, Kuncze
turned out to be a real law-and-order minister, definitely not the bleeding
heart liberal people expected him to be. In fact, TGM and other prominent
ideologues of SZDSZ have repeatedly attacked him for the tough laws cracking
down on illegal immigration (proportionally speaking a much bigger concern
in Hungary than in the US), various stringent laws about the arrest/detain
without trial powers of the police, his unwillingness to make rules of
evidence conform more to the liberal norms, etc.

I believe it was the secret hope of MSZP that between the shady national
security apparatus and the rough and tough cops leading the law enforcement
lobby Kuncze will not last for more than a few months, that the ministry
will in fact eat him alive. (This is exactly what happened to the former
minister of culture, Ga1bor Fodor, now replaced by a much more hands-on
SZDSZ politician. Ba1lint Magyar.) Yet Kuncze managed not only to hang on
but in fact to earn the grudging respect of his former enemies, not a small
feat in the highly politically charged atmosphere of a Hungarian ministry.

As for the crime statistics, they are still pretty bad in spite of all this
law and order stuff, with the opposition unearthing at least one major
scandal, "olajgate", and possibly another (also oil-related) one about the
sale of a Szolnok-based oil-exploration company to an Archangelsk-based one.

Andra1s Kornai

Friends,

       I have discovered two things  about the postings of Andras
    Szucs:

         1. He is a "true believer",  therefore,  he is convinced
            that he is representing the truth and nothing but the
            truth. This simply  means that  there is no  room for
            any arguments.  Arguing with  him will  only convince
            him to double his efforts  to eradicate all heretical
            thinking.

         2. Since he is representing the truth, he has absolutely
            no reason to  hide behind  an alias.  As a  matter of
            fact, he is proud to use his real name.  What is more
            noble than being associated with "the truth"?

       My conclusion is that  arguing with him  will serve "only"
    his purposes.
                   Amos

The following book may be of general interest to the readers of
this discussion group. It is

        Hoensch, J.K., A History of Modern Hungary, 1867-1994.
        2nd ed., Longman, New York, 1996. (paperback)

The author is professor of East-European History at the University of
the Saarland.

The book paints a reasonable portrait of the era and doesn't shirk
difficult issues. For example, it discusses the 'White Terror' as well
as the 'Red Terror' and the atrocities of the Kadar regime. From the
book:

"Law 4 of 1957, promulgated on 15 January 1957, provided for special
courts to sentence participants in the uprising to death without formal
charges and speeded up proceedings. Some 2,000 people were accordingly
executed. Nagy's attempt to exploit the country's revolutionary
atmosphere in order to see a brutal Stalinist dictatorship directly
replaced by a national and Social Democratic system failed leaving
behind it a heavy trail of blood and innumerable painful scars."

The book also quotes Pozsgay's apt and famous remark that "in his
eight years as party leader, Matyas Rakosi had been directly responsible
for the deaths of more Communists than the 'fascist dictator' Horthy
over a quarter of a century". For this Pozsgay was severely criticized in
Kadar's Central Committee in February 1989!

CSABA K ZOLTANI

Janos Zsargo talking about my humble self (;)):

>I also thought it is impossible
>to convince her but I had a pleasent surprise when she gave a nice and
>detailed (and true I think) description about Szabo Albert.

        Oh, no. It is rather easy to convince me if I think that the person
is right, holds balanced views, and can support his utterances with facts.
For example, I am a great admirer of Magda Zimanyi, whose political views I
often don't agree with. Whenever she writes to the Forum I cannot help being
a little jealous. She is extremely well informed and doesn't spare the time
to research her subjects. She doesn't always draw the same conclusions from
the same facts as I do but that doesn't make me admire her less. Also, I was
glad to see Janos Zsargo's writing on Hungary's wartime role which appeared
in the Forum a couple of days ago. Again, someone is relying on facts, not
on fiction.

        However, I am unbending when it comes to my opposition to extremism,
be it left or right. And, more and more I am coming to the conclusion that
some of the people active on the Forum hold views which are simply the
Hungarian version of nazism. I was willing to carry on a dialogue while they
managed to hide, more or less, their true colors. In the last few days.
however, they openly declared their admiration for Ferenc Szalasi and the
Germans. One of their number wrote the following about Miklos Horthy and his
feeble attempt at abandoning the German cause: "he [meaning Horthy] wanted
to betray the honor of the Hungarian soldier." I don't think that one has to
muster more evidence that these people are the enemies of Hungarian democracy.

        Eva Balogh

E.Balogh wrote:

>Germans. One of their number wrote the following about Miklos Horthy and his
>feeble attempt at abandoning the German cause: "he [meaning Horthy] wanted
>to betray the honor of the Hungarian soldier." I don't think that one has to
>muster more evidence that these people are the enemies of Hungarian democracy.

Not, only the Hungarian (or any kind of) democracy, but their own fellow people
.
Because of these 'honor of Hungarian/German/Russian soldier' or even worse for
the prestige of a leader (Hitler/Stalin) so many Hungarian/German/Russian had t
o
pay with blood senselessly.

J.Zsargo

At 04:14 PM 4/22/96 MET-1, you wrote:
>    Dear friends!
>    I've had  enough! Please  make an  attempt  to finish this
>discourse! I'm  gonna get off. I  would like to read  about more
>importent and  interesting topics!
>    Best wishes : Szabolcs

Dear Szabolcs:
Employing a proactive approach, could well result in realizing your wish.
Raise a topic that is of interest to *you* - we might all enjoy it!!
Regards,
Aniko

>
>

At 12:29 PM 4/22/96 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>Germans. One of their number wrote the following about Miklos Horthy and his
>>feeble attempt at abandoning the German cause: "he [meaning Horthy] wanted
>>to betray the honor of the Hungarian soldier." I don't think that one has to
>>muster more evidence that these people are the enemies of Hungarian democracy
.
>
>Not, only the Hungarian (or any kind of) democracy, but their own fellow
people.

        Thank you, Janos!

        Eva Balogh

On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> This guy cannot stop talking to himself. Does anyone know a method of
> setting Eudora to filter him out automatically?
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

Yes. Don't reply to him. Don't comment his postings. Ignore him.

L. J. Elteto

Isn't that interesting that exactly when her extremist
lies about "Szabadsagharcosok" of 1956 get too
uncomfortable, she comes in to change the subject to
Szalasi/Horthy extremism? How about an apology
to "Szabadsagharcosok" first, before moving to a
subject that has nothing to do with her lies?

On Apr 22, 12:07pm, Louis Elteto wrote:
> Subject: Re: Szucs' Toxic Contamination
> On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> > This guy cannot stop talking to himself. Does anyone know a method of
> > setting Eudora to filter him out automatically?
> >
> > Gabor D. Farkas
> >
>
> Yes. Don't reply to him. Don't comment his postings. Ignore him.
>
> L. J. Elteto
>-- End of excerpt from Louis Elteto


I agree with prof. Elteto.  Best to ignore.

At 09:38 AM 4/22/96 EDT, Csaba Zoltani wrote:
>The following book may be of general interest to the readers of
>this discussion group. It is
>
>        Hoensch, J.K., A History of Modern Hungary, 1867-1994.
>        2nd ed., Longman, New York, 1996. (paperback)
>
>The author is professor of East-European History at the University of
>the Saarland.

        I am always so grateful for Csaba's postings on new books on Hungary
in English. I will certainly buy it. I think it is especially useful to read
something from somebody who is neither Hungarian nor Anglo-American.

>The book paints a reasonable portrait of the era and doesn't shirk
>difficult issues. For example, it discusses the 'White Terror' as well
>as the 'Red Terror' and the atrocities of the Kadar regime. From the
>book:
>
>"Law 4 of 1957, promulgated on 15 January 1957, provided for special
>courts to sentence participants in the uprising to death without formal
>charges and speeded up proceedings. Some 2,000 people were accordingly
>executed.

        Here, I have to correct Professor Hoentsch. Although still the most
brutal of all reprisals in modern Hungarian history, only 229 people were
condemned to death after 1956. (Comparative figures after 1848-49 123; after
1919, 65 and after 1945, 189.) Of course, these are figures reflecting those
executions which were preceeded by a so-called trials. How many people lost
their lives (on either the Hungarian or the Soviet side) as a result of the
armed conflict is difficult to estimate. In addition, how many self-styled
execution occured is also difficult to judge. By the way, the source for the
figures is Attila Szakolczai, "A forradalmat koveto megtorlas soran
kivegzettekrol," *Evkonyv/III--1994," Budapest: 1956-os Intezet, 1994.

        Eva Balogh

I agree with those recommending that NO SNOW JOB should
be turned on when someone pinpoints blatant defamation that
"1956 was a SOCIALIST revolution" and "We don't call 1956
SZABADSAGHARC in the Hungarian language".

With no snow job (or sudden "change of subject) trying to bury
the issue, people can draw their conclusion unperturbed if they
subscribe to Eva Balogh's lies or know better.

In article >, Bob Hosh
> says:
>
>> Yes. Don't reply to him. Don't comment his postings. Ignore him.
>> L. J. Elteto
>
>I agree with prof. Elteto.  Best to ignore.

This is a heroically noble and aloof attitude, but ignoring comments you
consider mis-guided or wicked, is the same as allowing their dissemination
unchallenged. Should one not like what is being posted by AS on this world-
wide public medium, should one stick one's head in the sand? Adolf Hitler
just loved such people that disagreed with him (and might have prevented
him from taking absolute power in Germany had they spoken up and acted in
time) to behave like that. Wrong-doing, when it is being openly perpetrated,
must be openly challenged, otherwise the silent dissenters are going along
with it.

Regards,

George

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

It is a heroically noble and aloof attitude, but ignoring Eva Balogh's
defamation
of Hungarian Freedomfighters that one considers mis-guided or wicked, is the
same as allowing their dissemination unchallenged. Should one not like what
is being posted by EB on this worldwide public medium, should one stick
one's head in the sand? Gyula Horn and Ivan Peto just loved such people that
disagreed with him (and might have prevented him from taking absolute power
in Hungary had they spoken up and acted in time) to behave like that.
Wrong-doing, when it is being openly perpetrated, must be openly challenged,
otherwise the silent dissenters are going along with it.

Dear friends!

    I've had  enough! Please  make an  attempt  to finish this
discourse! I'm  gonna get off. I  would like to read  about more
importent and  interesting topics!

    Best wishes : Szabolcs