Cheer up Istvan!

soc.culture.rom/hun had been open groups from the very start. 
There is reason for that. 
and so
and so
..
..
..
why don't you share your wisdom?


>  
--

Ez me'g mindig jobb mint a ma'sik Mihai, a Dima.

Lo all..


I'll be in Buda in a couple of weeks...I need a slip/ppp with telnet out
capabilities anf usenet at at least 28.8


anybody?

=sj=

On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Domagoj wrote:

 
 Firstly Mr Alec Cosic my parents are both Dalmatian but Croatian first.
 Unlike during WW2, all Croatians are unified and support an independent 
 homeland and will not give up an inch of Croatia.  You believe that Dalmatia
 will secede from Croatia and join Istra and Italy in a union. What a joke.
 During WW2 many Croatians from Dalmatia opposed the independent Croatia 
 and joined the Yugoslav partisans. To discover the reason why all you 
 need to do is read the history texts and discover the truth.  Although as 
 any academic will tell you; make sure you read both sides of the story. 
 The reason is that a large part of Dalmatia was given up to ITALY!!! 
 These Croatian Dalmatians were dead set against becoming part of Italy 
 that they even turned on their fellow Croatians. They were justified in 
 doing so, because as history has show when Italy or Venice controlled 
 Dalmatia certain liberties were lost. Such as the right to speak their
 native tongue, Croatian( the c^a dialect, the one I speak)!!!!!
 As I tell many of my Croatian friends who are not Dalmatian. Dalmatia was
 the first place to be settled by Croats in their new homeland; thus 
 Dalmatia is the cradle of Croatia.
 
 
 Also Dalmatians are not a mixture of Slavs and Latins as you claim.
 Mr Cosic Dalmatians are indeed tall but this Dalmo is not to friendly to
 to the verbal insecticide of you and your allies.  
 
 The Croats were asked by the Byzantine empire to settle Dalmatia and
 secure stability in the region. The original inhabitants the Illyrians 
 fled, were killed in wars or eventually mixed with the Croat population. 
 Although Croatian numbers were much greater than the Illyrians and 
 therefore retained their culture and language.  The Illyrians are the
 ancestors to the Albanians, Vlahs and Romanians. They are not Latin.
 They were influenced and governed by Rome and they did
 mix with Latin people as well as Germanic, Celtic and Greek blood!!!
 Therefore this destroys your assumption that Dalmatians are a mixture
 of Slavs and Latins.  As mentioned earlier you stressed that Dalmatians
 are tall, well so are Croats from Medumorje to Vukovar; although the Latin
 people are short. Thus if you took a genetics course you would discover 
 that in no way can Dalmatians be a mixture of Slavs and Latins.
 I do not suggest the Italian influence has not occured in Dalmatia,
 for they introduced their beautiful culture, art and religion.  Although
 you Mr Alec Cosic have mistaken the cultural marriage with an ethnic one.
 
  
It is true that some Istrians and Italians want Istria to secede from 
 Croatia proper. Although the greater majority who are ethnic Croats will
 not let this occur. Hypothetically if Istria and Dalmatia were to secede
 how in the world could they join with Italy!!! For Slovenia will not give up
 any of the land their people have inhabited since they arrived in the 6th 
 century.  It is my opinion that greater servia's intention was to capture
 Dalmatia, and your propaganda only strengthens my assumption.  As a 
 matter of fact the village from which my parents come from  prevented the
 serb yugoslav backed army from reaching the sea. It is well known that
 servia inherited the weaponry from the yugoslav divorce and left the other 
 republics with little or no weapons and army organisation. Yet the 
 hundreds of thousands of Croats outside their homeland gave generously to 
 equip the badly armed militas. Not bad for Dalmatians who want to secede
 from Croatia proper, join Italy and create friendly relations with 
 servia.  Mr Alec Cosic all one has to do is ask any Dalmatian what they think
 of servia and their reply will be the following: that they will never forgive
 servia or let Dalmatia leave Croatia.
 
 
 Mr Alec Cosic I do not hold anything against you for being a cleaner at
 the University of Tasmania for you probably did not have the opportunities I 
 have received. Yet this does not mean you must remain ignorant to history
 and reality.  I ask! No beg you to read texts from both sides and 
 determine the facts. This will enrich you and spare everyone in cyberspace
 from your blabbering propaganda.  By the way my exam results were very good;
 for I intend to return to my homeland and perform my patriotic duty and help
 improve the economic environment. 
 
 P.S  I recommend you read Collen McCullough's ancient Rome sagas:
 The Firstman in Rome, The grass crown and  Fortunes favorites. This will
 animate the beauty, power and civilization of the Roman empire, and it 
 also mentions the original inhabitants of the Balkans prior to Slavic and
 Magyr arrival.
 
 Regards Domagoj

when in Budapest, where should I go?
I mean what's not in tourist guides
is there a good jazz bar?
are there cheap, nice, clean hotels? (I'm going with more 3 people
and we aren't very rich :-)

Thanks in advance...

PS: If possible email me your answers.


--
> ==================================================================     
Joao Pedro Guerreiro Neto                   e-mail: 

  "Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to        
   alter it every six months." - Oscar Wilde
> ==================================================================

N Albert Neuman   
A 174 Watchung Dr.   
A Hawthorne, NJ 07506   
T 201 427 2714   
D /IBM/   
F Brother's Keeper 5.2   
Z 12 TTGEN-1.22 MP
D520 1882:1882 DAMSKI
G625 1874:1874 GROSSMAN\Debrecen, Hungary/Debrecen, Hungary
G356 1915:1915 GUTMORE\PATERSON, NJ/PATERSON, NJ
K250 1896:1896 KUIKEN
M550 1873:1873 MEENAN\Amsterdam HollandD/Amsterdam HollandD
N550 1883:1987 NEUMAN\Checkoslovakia/RIDGEWOOD, NJ
P645 1803:1803 PERLMAN
S455 1885:1885 SALMONOVITCH\HUNGARY/HUNGARY
S525 1803:1803 SCHNECKENDORF
T423 1870:1986 TILSTRA\AMSTERDAM, HOLLAND/Pa.
T200 1912:1953 TOSK\LODZ,POLAND/PATERSON, NJ
U525 1853:1853 UNKNOWN
W 1 Apr 1995
Any matches to above TT? I would appreciate hearing from you. 

--

Kedves baratom,

Hogyha mar nem tisztelet, akkor legalabbis nyelvtani szobalyok
arra parancsolnak, hogy egy orszag nevet nagy betuvel kezdjuk.

Udvozlom,
Wojtek


Dear friend,

If not respect than at least grammar rules require to capitalize
the name of each country. 

Greetings,
Wojtek

Recently, the origin of the Hunyadis was subject of
debate among the Hungarian and Romanian contributors to
this forum. The following  text is adapted after

     Held, J., 1985, Hunyadi: Legend and Reality. East
          European  Monographs, Colombia University
          Press, New York, 264 p.

     In an age when family trees and long lines of
ancestry were important ingredients of a successful
political career, Hunyadi's origins were obscure indeed.
Beyond the names of  his parental grandfather, Serba or
Sorba [Serbu or Sirbu!?], and his father, Voyk or Woyk
[Voicu !?], we know next to nothing of his ancestry. His
ancestry was disputed for century by Hungarian, Romanian,
and South Slavic historians, each claiming him for their
own.

The first document mentioning the Hunyadis  is a patent
issued in 1409 by king Sigismund granting the castle of
Vajdahunyad, in Hunyad county, Transylvania. The patent
mentions Voyk, his brothers Radul and Magos, Voyk's son
Janos, and his nephew, also called Radul. The
contemporary chronicler Thurcozi explained that the
family had come to Transylvania from Wallachia, and the
chronicle of counts Cilli remarked, "it is know that this
Janos Hunyadi was born in Wallachia"

It is likely that Voyk came to Hungary -perhaps a
refugee from the fratricidal Wallachian wars- during the
late 1390s and that he was of the Orthodox religion.
Once in Hungary, he probably married a Hungarian lesser
noblewoman whose name it is not known. She might have
been a Szapolyai, as indicated by the impressions of a
coat of arms found  in the cathedral of Gyulafehervar
[Alba Iulia] More than this, it seems probable that Voyk
converted to Roman Catholicism before his marriage; his
children were reared as Roman Catholics.

Voyk sired three sons Janos, Janos Jr. (!)  and Voyk Jr.
and perhaps one or two daughters of whom only one is
known to us by name. He appears to have died while his
sons were still young and questions about a possible
second marriage for Hunyadi's mother have been raised.

The elder Janos (Iancu) was probably born at court around
1407 although both the birth place and the date are
highly debatable. We know next to nothing about the fate
of the youngest, Voyk Jr. He probably died at an early
age, since no trace of him can be found in documents
after 1419. Janos Jr., on the other hand, accompanied his
elder brother on his early campaigns and died of wounds
received in 1441 or 1442.

Hunyadi knew Wallachian and learned Italian as a young
men when he spent some time in Milan in 1430s. Probably
he understood Serbian and perhaps even Turkish.  However,
Hunyadi did not know Latin,  as is indicated by the fact
that his oath as regent had to be translated into
Hungarian for him.

Hunyadi married Erzesbet Szilagy. The Szilagyis had a
wide network of family-relations in Transylvania,
including the respected lesser noble families of Vingarts
and Garazdas.

Laszlo, Hunyadi's elder son , was born around 1430 or
1431 and the younger Matyas, the future Corvinus, about
8 years later.

Legend has Hunyadi the offspring of an illicit affair
between king Sigismund and a Transylvanian woman of the
Morzsinai family, and of one between Stepan Lazarevic
the despot of Serbia and a Hungarian woman from Nagyszeben
[Sibiu].

Hungarian historians have sometimes attempted to deny
Hunyadi's Wallachian origin. The fact that king Sigismund
mentioned the young Janos in the original patent and that
his successors, Albert I and Wladislaw I granted large
landed estates to the Hunyadis has been considered
evidence for their Hungarian and royal ancestry.

None of  Hunyadi's actions indicate that, from an ethnical
viewpoint, he felt either Romanian or Magyar. His brutal
revenge on Vlad Dracul of Wallachia was rather an act
motivated by envy and/or political considerations.

Actually, politics in the 15th century Hungary was not
ethnic-oriented. In the entire 15 century, only one
"ethnically Hungarian" king ruled the realm, and this
was Matyas Hunyadi (Corvinus) who was of Wallachian
descent on his father's side. Many of the leading
aristocratic families, such as the counts of Cilli,
the Frankopans, the Olahs, the Dragfis, and others,
were of non-Magyar origin. Phillippo Scolari was
a Florentine, and Janos Vitez was part-Croatian or
Slovene. All these lords, together with ethnically
Hungarian aristocrats and noblemen, served the king of
Hungary -or fought against him, as occasion demanded -
and considered themselves members of the natio Hungarica.

The individual was first attached to the person of the
king; then, more abstractly, to the kingdom and its
symbol, the crown, then to his feudal lord (or his
vassal, or his vassal's vassal) or to his landlord.
Secondly, his loyalty belong to the universal Christian
Church. One's loyalty to the kingdom and Church was of a
different quality than the customs attaching him to the
ethnic community. Feudal dependence embraced a narrower,
Christianity a wider circle than the circle of ethnicity.
One could be gentle Hungarus while at the same time was
also natione Latinus, that is, of Romanian origin and
language.

Liviu Iordache

***[Greetings from Hungarian-American HyperNews]***
  ***[       http://mineral.umd.edu/hahn/        ]***



I am starting to research my Magyar heritage.  
My grandfather was Janos Toth, born in Satoraljaujhely in
1883.  He came to the US about 1900-1910.  His mother's
maiden name was Hornyak, he had 1 sister, and they were
orphaned at an early age.  He was an engineer, and received
a US Patent for a railway crossing gate.  All the best.

Hi!

I'm writing an article about Internet in Hungary for a French
newspaper and I would like to know a few things about that
newsgroup...

*Most of the people who write here do not live in Hungary? Do you
think it's an interesting way to get in touch with Magyar culture?

*Did that newsgroup change something in your relationship  with the
country where  you have your roots?

*I saw lots of texts about Hungarian history (and the problems of
the borderlines)... Could you have that kind of discussion BEFORE
that newsgroup appeared?

*...and all you'd like to say to me about your feelings about that
kind of tool.


	Thanks a lot,

Florent Latrive

PS: Sorry to write in English, but I can't write Hungarian nor read it!
Answer directly to : 




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