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1 fenno-ugric sovereign political entities.... (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
5 OSI-Croatia Under Attack - Press Release (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Hungarian Dance Workshop in Austin: Further Detail (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)

+ - fenno-ugric sovereign political entities.... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jarmo Ryyti wrote:

> And most of the Fenno-Ugric languages. Lennart Meri, august 1995
> in Jyva"skyla":  "Out of the 23 Uralic peoples only three have been
> able to establsih their own states."

	Are you saying that political entities are to be based on "peopledom,"
which in this case seems to coincide with linguistic divisions...?????
That each and every "peoples" who speak a different "language" should
have their own sovereign state?

+ - Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:03:49 GMT,  (Bill Vaughan)

>The "native"
>Japanese numerals from 1 to 10 are:
>hitotsu, futatsu, mittsu, yottsu, itsutsu, muttsu, nanatsu, yattsu,
>kokonotsu, and too.

The curious thing about the native Japanese numbers is the use of
ablaut to denote the doubled quantity:

                    Old Japanese:
1: hito, 2: futa   (pito", puta)
3: mi,   6: mu     (mi, mu)
4: yo,   8: ya     (yo", ya)

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal                     ~ ~
Amsterdam                   _____________  ~ ~
+ - Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Patrick Chew > wrote:

>	Mand	Cant	Tois	Kor	Jap	Thai

>1	?i	yat	yIt	il	it$i	ni"N/-et
>2	@r	yi	Nei	i	ni	sO:N/yi-
>3	san	sa:m	lha:m	sam	san	sa:m
>4	sI"	sei	lhei	sa	$i	si
>5	?u	N	N	o	go	ha:
>6	liou	lUk	lUk	(L)juk	roku	hok
>7	chi	t$at	tIt	t$Il	$it$i	cet
>8	pa	pa:t	pa:t	p'al	hat$i	p&t
>9	ciu	kau	kiu	ku	ku/kyu	kau
>10	s.I"	sap	sIp	$Ip	dZu:	sIp

>	hrm... well.. there sems to be more than a surface similarity here..
>especially when one takes into account previous stages of the languages:

>Jap: it$i < *iti, $i < *si, $it$i < *siti. hat$i < *hati, dZuu < *zyuu
>Kor: il < *it, i < *Ni, o < *No, t$Il < *t$It, p'al < *p'at, $Ip < *sip
>Toi: lh < *s, *ts- > t

Yes, especially given the fact that Korean and Japanese borrowed these
numerals from Ancient Chinese...
 Japanese hat$i is from Old Japanese *pati, which is in fact Ancient
Chinese *pat. Pretty clumsy example, this list, I'd say!

Tanno Gerritsen

+ - Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bill Vaughan wrote:

:Well, the "common numbering system" argument might hold a little
:water, if true (though number words can be borrowed, cf. Japanese),
:but the "agglutinative" argument isn't worth much. Typology (eg

I agree. I assume that lexical evidence is presented when connecting
sumerian with the dene-caucasian languages, I just don't know
it and I would like to find out what it is. anybody at least have a 

:inflecting vs isolating vs agglutinative, or verb-subject-object(VSO)
:vs SOV vs SVO) is a useful way of describing present languages.
:However, there are many cases where known related languages have quite
:different types, and this casts doubt on the use of typology to show

:It gets worse when you consider the opposite case -- languages that
:share a typology but are thought not to be related. For instance,
:Turkish, Japanese, and Tamil are strongly verb-final, but they are not
:considered to be related (some think Japanese may be very distantly
:related to Turkish, but that argument itself is mostly typological in

it was originaly typological, but quite a bit of lexical evidence
is now being presented to classify japanese as an altaic language.
the evidence includes regular sound correspondences and this is also 
used to shed light on the r/z l/*sh* problem in altaic. some think
japanese branched off from tungusic (manchu).

:nature). Agglutinating languages include Turkish, Zulu, Hungarian,
:Algonkian, and Inuit. I doubt these are related at all.

eskimo -aleut (inuit) and altaic (turkish, japanese?) are sometimes 
considered to be in a special branch of nostratic and the turcologist 
k. menges inculdes dravidian (tamil) in this branch as well, although 
many don't. menges even attempts to use dravidian examples to shed 
light on the r/z problem in altaic.

:It's a lot easier to prove that languages are related than that they
:are not. So maybe Sumerian is indeed related to Basque. Of course all
:languages are probably related through some unreconstructible "common
:world" ancestor -- the alternative would be truly absurd -- but that
:isn't what most people mean when they say language X is related to
:language Y.

I agree. the relationship of sumerian to other languages, like the
na-dene relationship I am inquiring about is in the superfamily level
and is distant and speculative.
+ - OSI-Croatia Under Attack - Press Release (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Press Release
For Immediate Release
Contact:  Michael Vachon
Open Society Institute
(212) 887-0668


New York-10 January 1997-The Open Society Institute-New York would like 
respond to the political attacks and legal accusations leveled against 
Open Society Institute-Croatia in recent weeks by the Government and by
the Government-controlled media. 
 The Ministry of Finance formally accused OSI-Croatia and its officers 
intentional evasion of taxes.  In addition, the media have reported that
several employees have been criminally indicted on related charges. 

On December 7, President Tudjman publicly accused OSI-Croatia of
undermining the Croatian state and the HDZ.  He accused OSI-Croatia of
infiltrating society by promoting "international" ideas that undermine 
Croatian state, of supporting independent media that are critical of the
government, as well as of supporting opposition political organizations. 
In fact, OSI-Croatia does give grants to independent media; it does not
give any money to political parties or to partisan political
organizations.  It confines its activities to educational, cultural, and
humanitarian activities in accordance with its Statute.  Moreover, it
gives a public accounting of all its activities each year. 

OSI-Croatia stands for an open society in Croatia which reflects the 
of all its inhabitants, and not just the views of the State; in which 
State reflects the views of all its inhabitants and their 
and not just the view of the President; and in which the media is
independent of the state.  President Tudjman described this as a
"dangerous alien ideology."  We believe that it is a philosophy 
for Croatian democracy. 

On December 12, two OSI-Croatia employees were stopped crossing the 
from Slovenia.  $65,000 in cash belonging to OSI-Croatia was confiscated
and the two were detained overnight and interrogated.  They were then
released, but the money was not returned, even though customs officials
have publicly acknowledged that no wrongdoing was committed by bringing
this cash into the country.  To date, the Government has not responded 
OSI-Croatia's formal request that this money be returned. 

In the days after the detention of the two employees, OSI-Croatia
cooperated with Croatian investigators, who asked for certain financial
records of the foundation.  OSI-Croatia produced all records that were
requested.  Subsequently, Croatian officials entered the home of an
OSI-Croatia employee without a search warrant and seized additional
documents.  Despite this use of coercion, OSI- Croatia continued to
cooperate with the investigation and provided more documents at the
request of the investigators. 
  These documents outlined the payment of grants, honoraria, and 

OSI-Croatia, as a humanitarian organization, is exempt from taxation by
the Croatian government.  This tax exemption is contained in the 
Statute of OSI-Croatia, which has been approved four times, beginning in
1992, by three ministries of the Croatian government.  Despite this tax
exemption, OSI-Croatia nonetheless paid to the government some taxes in
order to allow its employees to participate in State pension and health
insurance plans. 

On January 7, 1997, OSI-Croatia filed its formal response to the charges
of the Ministry of Finance.  OSI-Croatia denies these charges 
Because the employees have not been formally notified of the criminal
indictments or seen their contents, i t is impossible for us to comment 
them in any detail.  We consider the release of the criminal indictments
through the media completely inappropriate and an indication of the
political nature of the accusations.  OSI- Croatia will fight these
charges w hen it receives them.  In the meantime, OSI-Croatia will
continue to work normally, supporting deserving programs and individuals
regardless of their political, religious, or ideological affiliations, 
regardless of their national, racial, or ethnic background.  OSI-New 
will support OSI-Croatia in its efforts. 

- 30 -
+ - Re: Hungarian Dance Workshop in Austin: Further Detail (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Here is a more complete schedule for the Austin dance workshop featuring
Tima'r Sa'ndor and Erzse'bet teaching dances from Vajdaszentiva'ny and 

The schedule for the main teaching sessions of the workshop:

Day                   Date                  Time(s)                 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday              February 7:         7:00-10:00 P.M.          

Saturday            February 8:     9:00-12:00 and 1:30-5:00 

Sunday              February 9:         10:00-2:00 P.M.           

Additionally, we will have a ta'ncha'z on the evening of Saturday, February 8
from 8:00 P.M. until midnight featuring much LIVE music by the Koloras
ensemble of Austin.

For those who want to hang around Central Texas a bit longer, the Tima'rs
will be in town with us for a few more days, so we are also hosting a few
more teaching sessions focusing on further review and fine points of
the material taught over the weekend, PLUS, as an extra added bonus, a 
karikazo class.  Those sessions are scheduled as follows:

Sunday   February 9:   6:30-9:30 P.M. 

Monday   February 10: Evening Karikazo Session and gathering (times to be set) 

Tuesday  February 11:  8:00-9:30 P.M.           

The price for the workshop is $50.

For further information contact Yoshimi Masuo at (512)477-1282 or via email at

Hope to see you at the workshop!!
+ - Re: Sun Language Theory? (was Re: Finnish related to Tu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 23 Jan 1997 02:33:45 GMT, fred hamori > wrote:

>Once you know the basis of the numbers in Sumerian you can see that it
>is related to FinnUgor and Hungarian. 

      Sumerian               Proto-Uralic (Finno-Ugric)

1.    dis^, dili, as^        *u"kte
2.    min [me-nu]            *kakte
3.    es^5 [is^-s^a-am]      *kolm-
4.    limmu [li-mu]          *nelja"-
5.    ia2 [i (ya?)]          *vitte-
6.    as^3 [a-s^u]           *kutte-
7.    imin [u-me-nu]
8.    ussu [u-sa-am]
9.    ilimmu [i-li-mu]
10.   u [ha-wu-mu]

20.   nis^
30.   us^u2
40.   nimin, nin5
50.   ninnu
60.   g~is^2, g~es^2
3600. s^ar2

(in square brackets early Sumerian pronunciation from a lexical list
found in Ebla).

>Almost every term has either a 
>related word or the number and the numbers have their meanings often..
>but not allways. The basic terms 1,10,100,1000 also are found little 

So what's the Sumerian for 100 and 1000?

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal                     ~ ~
Amsterdam                   _____________  ~ ~