Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Warehousing the underclass (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Warehousing the underclass (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Choosing your beggars (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Arrowcross and MKP (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Arrowcross and MKP (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Impartiality of the media (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
7 multicuralism (NOT) (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
8 E-mail contact in P cs (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: multicuralism (NOT) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Warehousing the underclass (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply to your message of "Fri, 15 Jul 94 14: 24:42 GMT."
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 22:05:28 -0700

Jeliko writes:
> I am sure as hell glad for 76, 17 that is.
When Adam Smith published his Wealth of Nations, right?

+ - Re: Warehousing the underclass (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply to your message of "Fri, 15 Jul 94 14: 24:31 GMT."
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 94 22:29:29 -0700

> There were a
> number of Hungarian products made that way in the past, while now they are
> trying to conform to CEU norms.
What is/are CEU?

+ - Re: Choosing your beggars (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul Gelencser writes:
> Give a man a fish, and you feed him for the day.
> Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

Yes (assuming he doesn't starve while being tought -- a bit of a problem
with going to school).  I'm not saying they shouldn't be taught something
that makes them employable. However, the harsh fact of life is that people
who already have skills and are desperate to work can remain jobless even in
a normal job market. (If anybody has a job for a 60 year old recently laid
off C/C++ programmer here in the valley, please drop me a line. The person
cannot relocate for the job.) There are colleges now that guarantee they'll
place you, or you can stay and take courses as long as they can. It's
unclear how you keep body and soul together while this goes on, but let's
suppose the government is willing to pay for your food and housing while
you take the courses. Great.

> If the side affect is no more beggers to subsidize, so much the better -
> call it enlightened self interest if you want, but it is the best for all
Sure it is. But the assumption that in a modern industrial society people
undred a 100 IQ (and that's half of the population!) have lots of places to
go is wishful thinking. Physical strength is relevant for maybe 20% of the
jobs out there, and all those great semi-skilled jobs that served as
channels of upward mobility now lead nowhere. Classical blue-collar jobs,
which do require reasonable intelligence, are also going the way of the
dinosaur. This C-programmer friend of mine, I'm sure he could get a job
flipping burgers at McDonalds'. I'm not sure what else he can get. Nobody
seems to be interested in employing somebody "that old". I know it's age
discrimination and it's illegal, but it is also very real.

This issue is closely related to whether automation creates or eliminates
jobs -- there was a good article on the subject in Scientific American a
couple of months ago. I'm sure I'll catch all sorts of flak for assuming
that welfare recipients have low IQ. That's not what I said. The simple fact
is that their employability is marginal, and there doesn't seem to be an
obvious way of improving it. This friend of mine, I assume he'll go on
welfare. Since it is hard to make more in unskilled jobs than the cost of
childcare, many working mothers do the same. The free market is telling
them something: "we only need highly skilled workers, and that only if they
fit a certain profile". I'm not saying the market is wrong -- on the
contrary I think the market is exactly right. So keeping them in that
luxurious welfare lifestyle that some people on this list seem to begrudge
is not such a terrible idea. If, *in addition*, you are also willing to
spend tax dollars on their schooling (and no, you can't make a living as a
fisherman that easily, certainly not when you are a single mother or an
aging C-programmer) by all means, let's do it.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Arrowcross and MKP (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

: Marc wrote:

: >> I would be curious to know if there's anything in English about arrowcross
: >> who joined the communists directly after WWII. Or did they join only
: >> after '48.

: Zoli answered:

: >I think, and
: >the anecdotal pieces of evidence I've read suggested, that they
: >must have flocked there as early as they could, to get protection against
: >the "igazola1s" (='lustration') which happened way before '48.

: Zoli is quite correct. The MKP needed membership rather desperately and they
: were not too choosy when it came to new members. I think I posted earlier a
: piece where I quoted some figures--like 3,000 members in December 1944 and 30
: thousand two or three months later. I think that the evidence is anecdotal,
: and I am not at all sure whether the documentation is all there to prove it
: or disprove it. Unless, of course, we have intact membership lists in both
: parties and a comparison is possible. One anecdotal story is a distant
: relative of mine by marriage who was some bigwhig in the mines around Pe1cs.
: I know that he got himself mixed-up on the wrong side before 1945 and was
: locked up for a few months in Pe1cs. However, a few years later he became a
: real bigwhig at the same mine and later (before 1956) got an even cushier job
: at another mine. I assume that he must have been a party member because in
: those days it would have been impossible otherwise. Eva Balogh

without wishing to prejudice any conclusions about who joined the communist
party after 1944 and why, it would be interesting to compare membership
of various other political parties  over the same period.

one reason for the large growth in numbers for the communist party could be
that in 1944 it was illegal to be a member, and many members were in exile.
i do not know if these were on the party's files. after wwii many people
returned from voluntary and involuntary periods "abroad". forced labourers
and survivors of various camps made natural candidates for membership. since
there were several hundred thousand people in these categories, an extra
27,000 members would be easily explained, without looking to "turncoats".
from anecdotes i have heard, there was no shortage of petty turncoats, be
that in hungary, or even germany after the loss of the battle of stalingrad.
when the writing is on the wall ....

+ - Re: Arrowcross and MKP (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh writes:

> On a broader note, I recall reading during my student days (yes, I
> try to look it up, and no, I don't recall the source--please don't
jump on
> me!) that "Red Csepel" was an Arrow-Cross stronghold before the end of
> war; i.e. that the distance from right-radical to left-radical wasn't
> that far for at least some of the workers...

> Sincerely,

> Hugh Agnew
I may have posted this here before. In which case apologies are due.
IMHO, the ploitical affiliation is a circle at the top is the ideal
democracy that is near equivalent to utopia. one can go to the far left
down the left side of the circle and to the far right on the right side
of the circle. Lo and behold who are next to each other (maybe the
favorit colors vary) with the same total diregard for human rights.
So I am not surprised by swings from either of the bottom dwellers to
each other's neighboring territory.
The bottom is rarely as idealogical about the issues as those slightly
further up the circle on either side, but in the long run those are the
dangerous ones besause they tend to get religious about their believes
and can be great proselytizers for the bottom dwellers.

+ - Re: Impartiality of the media (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There is a good essay on the problem as it relates to eastern Europe in
the Aug issue of "The World and I" (which BTW is my favorit monthly).
It discusses both the radio/TV problems and the seeming changes over the
last few years.
There is an interesting point made also about a Horn termination of an
interview with the Financial Times. Apparently he did not like the

+ - multicuralism (NOT) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From:    JELIKO >
>Subject: Re: multiculturalism
>OK I give my definition.
>Multiculturalism is permitting each nationality to cultivate its own
>culture in addition to the nations culture.
>Or do I have to start "bashing" again. :-)

     I just thought I will addd my two cents to your comment...
The way you put it sounds like you want to create another Bosnia
somewhere else in the world.  Are you?  I will rather be a melting pot,
part of an integral community rather then preserve a certain cultures in
which my kids will not even be born in...
What's wrong with a complete integration????  I don't mean that you
should throw away your culture once you are in another country, however,
why your kids born in that country should be force to learn your native
language, custom and be pressure to make friends only within that
community...  I called it sickness (rather than multicultiralism)
Just my 50 cents!
+ - E-mail contact in P cs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello netters:

I am interested in establishing e-mail contact with
English-speaking persons in Pecs, Hungary.

If you are from Pecs, could you please contact me at:

Many thanks.
Appa Rao Korukonda

+ - Re: multicuralism (NOT) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Papa Smurf writes:

>why your kids born in that country should be force to learn your native
>language, custom and be pressure to make friends only within that
>community...  I called it sickness (rather than multicultiralism)
>Just my 50 cents!

And not a cent overpriced!  I mean your idea of a brave new world of

Joe Pannon