Charles ) wrote:
: >>Andra1s Kornai wrote:
: >>
: >
: >>Ok.  Are people who go to World Cup Soccer games ridiculous for
: >cheering on
: >>the team from their home country, just because they are from the
: >same country?
: >
: --Imi Bokor replied:

: >yes.
: >
: --And I say, Imi, I bet you really are a lot of fun on a date,
: aren't you?

i don't watch football matches on television on a date, nor have i ever
gone to a football match on a date.

d.a.

ff

Thomas Breed adds his own two-cents worth about the meaning of "honfoglalas,"
which literally means "establishment of the fatherland." The word is
exclusively used to describe the establishment of Hungary in the ninth
century when the Hungarian tribes led by Arpad occupied the Pannonian basin.
The Hungarian-Turkic tribes came with all their belongings, according to some
estimates, their numbers being approximately 200,000. In any case the numbers
had to be quite high, especially in comparison to other peoples already
settled in the area. As I said earlier, otherwise the Hungarian language
wouldn't have survived. A good counter-example is Bulgaria where the native
Slavic population was in majority and accordingly the Bulgars' language
didn't survive.

First of all, I would like to correct Thomas Breed's understanding of the
ethnic and historical realities of Hungary. The original Hungarian-Turkic
tribes, involved with the "honfoglalas," didn't occupy Croatia which was an
entirely separate kingdom under their own kings. Croatia's association with
Hungary came about the following way. Hungary's King Ladislas's (Laszlo,
later Saint Laszlo) sister Ilona was married to the Croatian king Zvoinimir.
After Zvoinimir's death Ilona turned to her brother for help against the
Croatian nobles. Laszlo occupied Croatia (1091) but in no way interfered with
local customs, including language. Croatia's relation to Hungary was like
Hungary's relation to Austria after 1864. That is Croatia had home rule,
including the full use of the Croatian language, including the University of
Zagreb and its own parliament.

As far as Magyarization is concerned, it is a mistake to think that Hungary
all through its 1,000 years of existence did nothing else but tried to change
the nationality of its non-Magyar speaking inhabitants. Nothing is further
from the truth. If the Hungarian government had tried to do such thing for
centuries on end, it would have succeeded just as France succeeded in making
whole of France French-speaking. Magyarization as a desirable end was perhaps
practiced for thirty years in Hungary, all told. From about the 1880s on. Now
admittedly there were substantial demographic changes, especially at the expen
se of the Slovaks but most of it came about by migration (especially to
Budapest) and through the growth of urban centers. Now, I am sure that Tony
Pacek is going to dispute this and will quote half the world saying the opposi
te but I am convinced that the little success at Magyarization the Hungarians
enjoyed was due not so much to coercion but to more natural causes,
especially rapid economic growth between 1867 and 1914.

As far as the nice deal of the Dual Monarchy is concerned it was indeed a
very nice deal, although the Hungarians didn't appreciate it as much as they
should have. However, I don't think that the Habsburgs acted foolishly when
they made the compromise with the Hungarians. First of all, saying that "the
Slavs" were in majority is rather meaningless. Just because your language
happens to belong to the same language family it doesn't mean that you are
the same as others in that language family. I can't imagine anything more
absurd than to throw the Czechs and, let's say, the Serbs together, saying,
"well, they are Slavic people, aren't they?" Pan-Slavism, however attractive
it seemed from Moscow, was not a viable route for the Slavic people of the
Habsburg Monarchy. Also, one must realize that the Habsburgs inherited not so
much the people, as the lands--the Kingdom of Bohemia, the Kingdom of
Moravia, the Kingdom of Croatia, the Kingdom of Hungary. The carving up of
the Monarchy along ethnic lines would have been absolutely unimaginable not
just by Vienna but also by the political leaders of the different countries
themselves, and this is true not only of the Hungarians but also the Czechs
and the Croats. All in all, in comparison to Hungary with its 20-25 million
inhabitants, the Kingdoms of Bohemia and Moravia, on the one hand, and the
Kingdom of Croatia, paled in size and political strength.

Eva Balogh

I also found Jeliko's Xmas posting to be moving and refreshing, particularly
for one living in the cut-throat New York work environment in which I exist.
I just hope you're not thinking of doing any drastic "downsizing" in your
particular businies, Jeliko. Having one of the Big 6 management consulting
firms for a client, I am regularly horrified at the kinds of radical downsizing
that gets recommended to ever-so-willing companies who are quick to embrace
the short-term bottom line, and who then get into trouble when expansion time
rolls around.

I am one of the legion of "temp" workers (so often spoken of in the media) who
finds quite a bit of abuse in the new paradigm of "outsourcing" which is all
the rage in business. We are continually ripped off by employment brokers who
demand our loyalty but treat us as hired meat, and threaten us if we show the
least bit of independence or, God forbid, entrepreneurship.

Marxism may be dead, but similar issues that gave rise to it are surely alive
and well. At least in America, it's possible to agitate (read: lobby) for some
government regulation that sometimes even does some good.

Jeliko, if you are the model employer you make yourself out to be, then you
are to be commended for it, and you are probably the exception rather than the
rule. I have avoided getting back into the full-time work force bacause (1) the
money isn't as good as freelancing, and (2) in today's climate, I cannot trust
most companies to look out for my interests.

Regards and happy holidays,

Marc Nasdor

Kedves Olvaso !

Szeretettel kivanok egy nagyon boldog uj evet.
A szilveszter legyen vidam, es ugy maradjon a
hangulatunk eveken at !

BUEK   BUEK   BUEK

Attila (Dr. Szabo Attila, Montreal, e-mail:)

who cares?


On Sun, 25 Dec 1994, IMRE BOKOR wrote:

> Charles ) wrote:
> : >>Andra1s Kornai wrote:
> : >>
> : >
> : >>Ok.  Are people who go to World Cup Soccer games ridiculous for
> : >cheering on
> : >>the team from their home country, just because they are from the
> : >same country?
> : >
> : --Imi Bokor replied:
>
> : >yes.
> : >
> : --And I say, Imi, I bet you really are a lot of fun on a date,
> : aren't you?
>
> i don't watch football matches on television on a date, nor have i ever
> gone to a football match on a date.
>
> d.a.
>